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Tuesday, March 26, 2013

Grantland: Curtis: Being a Latino ballplayer in Arizona

I put those concerns to Joe Arpaio, the sheriff of Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix. Sheriff Joe is a noisy supporter of SB 1070 and stricter deportation policies. It is a strange fate of the times that Sheriff Joe has jurisdiction over the Cactus League territory.

“Nobody’s going to go around stopping them at a restaurant, asking for their ID,” Arpaio says.

He pauses and adds, “Unless there’s some other reason to do that.”

Sheriff Joe is a Red Sox fan. Since he was raised outside Boston, he sees his continuous fandom as one more sign of his political consistency. When I reach Sheriff Joe one afternoon, he has just gotten off the DL — he fell on a sidewalk and broke his shoulder in two places. “I know how the ballplayers feel now,” he says.

“Bring those ballplayers to me,” he barks. “I’ll give ‘em a pair of pink underwear.” This is more welcoming than it sounds. For though Arpaio puts pink underwear on county inmates, he also uses it as a gift for visiting celebrities. Sarah Palin got a pair when she toured Arizona last year.

Really, Sheriff Joe wants any Latino ballplayer who fears he might be racially profiled to stop by. “I wish they’d come to my office and come out and meet the sheriff,” he says. “I’ll tell ‘em all the facts about this … We don’t stop people because they look like they’re from somewhere else. I’m an equal-opportunity guy. My guys arrest everybody.”

...To a police officer, Barajas could arouse the same “reasonable suspicion” as Elian Herrera. Barajas’s parents are Mexican immigrants; his skin is olive-colored. But he was born in Ontario, California. He’s as American as Mike Trout. I ask Barajas if he is ever worried about being asked for his papers.

“I don’t know if I should carry my birth certificate or passport. I never thought about it,” he says. “I’m sure it could happen.”

Then Barajas’s eyes narrow. “I think of myself as an American citizen. There’s no reason whatsoever for me to have to carry that around.”

Thanks to Vance.

Repoz Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:48 AM | 228 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, general, history, media

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   1. TerpNats Posted: March 26, 2013 at 07:15 AM (#4396516)
Sheriff Joe is a Red Sox fan.
Yet one more reason not to like him.
   2. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:01 AM (#4396531)
liked this article.

   3. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:17 AM (#4396533)
Me too. Its not an ideal situation, but its way down on the list of things Americans with a mind for civil liberties should be fighting against. Barajas is 100% correct in that last line.
   4. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:26 AM (#4396537)
But he was born in Ontario, California. He’s as American as Mike Trout.


Skipping over the crucial 'California' part there made me a little bit confused.
   5. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:29 AM (#4396567)
Sheriff Joe is a Red Sox fan.


Big surprise. I bet he isn't a fan of "Mondays" either.
   6. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4396583)
I think of myself as an American citizen.

Because you are!
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:49 AM (#4396590)
"Before, you didn't take your passport with you," says Yorvit Torrealba, a Venezuelan catcher with the Rockies.


He's just doing the job Americans don't want to do.
   8. GEB4000 Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:55 AM (#4396596)
In Arizona, a foreigner will get busted if he isn't carrying his papers as required by federal law. That's just like Mexico.

Takeaway quote:

"It's the government," says Torrealba. "You follow the rules, I guess."

Yeah obey the law and you're unlikely to have any problems with the cops. Funny how that works.
   9. JJ1986 Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4396602)
In Arizona, a foreigner will get busted if he isn't carrying his papers as required by federal law. That's just like Mexico.


Good thing we can tell foreigners by sight.
   10. depletion Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:00 AM (#4396609)
I always carry my passport in Canada. I feel my rights are being violated.
   11. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4396615)

In Arizona, a foreigner will get busted if he isn't carrying his papers as required by federal law. That's just like Mexico.


And if there's a country America should aspire to be more like, its Mexico.
   12. The Good Face Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4396620)
And if there's a country America should aspire to be more like, its Mexico.


Assuming that's sarcasm, perhaps the Democrats should stop trying to implement Mexico's gun laws in the US while importing tens of millions of actual, you know, Mexicans?
   13. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4396626)
We just need to make everything illegal so that wise arbiters like Sheriff Joe will be able to arrest anyone at any time if they suspect they are up to no good. Think how safe we will be then!
   14. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:11 AM (#4396685)
Is there a way to read #12 that allows it to make any sense?
   15. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4396689)
In Hong Kong, everyone is required to carry some sort of ID, either Hong Kong isssued ID or foreign passport, which must be produced on request if the police ask. I'm guessing it's done to crack down on illegal migrants, but there are plenty of those anyway. When I first arrived many years ago I left my passport at the hotel once and the cop yelled at me and told me not to do that anymore.
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4396720)
Yeah obey the law and you're unlikely to have any problems with the cops.


Its funny how conservatives will quickly chuck this argument out the window if you suggest background checks, mental health requirements, or any regulations on gun use.
   17. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4396740)
Is there a way to read #12 that allows it to make any sense?


Try the first word first, followed by the second, and so on. Oh yeah, from left to right.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:48 AM (#4396745)
Is there a way to read #12 that allows it to make any sense?


It sounds more sensible if you drink about a gallon of bleach first.
   19. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4396755)
Its funny how conservatives will quickly chuck this argument out the window if you suggest background checks, mental health requirements, or any regulations on gun use.

I'm not sure if this does or doesn't make me "conservative" but I don't see how obeying laws is the same as suggesting more laws. Hong Kong has very few laws, most of which are rigorously obeyed. India has lots and lots of laws, very few of which are obeyed.
   20. Roger Cedeno's Spleen Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4396757)
Sheriff Joe is a Red Sox fan.


I wonder what his handle on Boston Dirt Dogs is...
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 12:00 PM (#4396759)

I'm not sure if this does or doesn't make me "conservative" but I don't see how obeying laws is the same as suggesting more laws.


Expanding background checks for guns is a new law that ensures gun owners are complying with existing laws on gun ownership.

AZ SB 1070 is a new law that ensures Mexican-looking people are complying with existing laws on immmigration.


   22. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: March 26, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4396768)
"I believe we should let all foreigners into this country, provided they can speak our native language...Apache." -- Steve Martin
   23. Blastin Posted: March 26, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4396824)
Always find it rich when people who just up and decided this was their country get upset when other people try to join them.


For the record, being descended from slaves and native Americans, maybe 5% of my ancestors could possibly have come here illegally (unless you really want to be awful and call being transported against your will the same thing). But because everyone thinks I look Hispanic (working in the ESL world and living in East Harlem doesn't help), in AZ, I'd be suspicious. I have no use for that state, though. It was very pretty the two times I went, but that's plenty.
   24. The Good Face Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4396830)
Is there a way to read #12 that allows it to make any sense?


It sounds more sensible if you drink about a gallon of bleach first.


Please drink up then.
   25. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4396832)
"That is déjà vu," says Jose Serrano, a Democratic congressman from New York. "There was a time — and I'm old enough to remember it — when Latinos and African Americans in some parts of this country were treated very badly when they would come to spring training."

Great. The author chooses to feature quotes from two of America's more radical political voices, Sheriff Joe and Serrano.

Here's Serrano on the legacy of Hugo Chavez:
Serrano wrote, “At his core he was a man who came from very little and used his unique talents and gifts to try to lift up the people and the communities that reflected his impoverished roots. He believed that the government of the country should be used to empower the masses, not the few. He understood democracy and basic human desires for a dignified life. His legacy in his nation, and in the hemisphere, will be assured as the people he inspired continue to strive for a better life for the poor and downtrodden.”
   26. Ron J2 Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4396833)
#14 The first thing I thought of was that it was encoded. I tried rot13, but:

Nffhzvat gung'f fnepnfz, creuncf gur Qrzbpengf fubhyq fgbc gelvat gb vzcyrzrag Zrkvpb'f tha ynjf va gur HF juvyr vzcbegvat graf bs zvyyvbaf bs npghny, lbh xabj, Zrkvpnaf?


Didn't make much more sense.

   27. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4396834)
AZ SB 1070 is a new law that ensures Mexican-looking people are complying with existing laws on immmigration.

New York Times, June 25, 2012:
The [United States Supreme C]ourt unanimously sustained the law’s centerpiece, the one critics have called its “show me your papers” provision, though they left the door open to further challenges. The provision requires state law enforcement officials to determine the immigration status of anyone they stop or arrest if they have reason to suspect that the individual might be in the country illegally.
(Emphasis mine.)

So ... no.
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4396840)
(Emphasis mine.)

So ... no.


I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse, but what is the "so...no" objecting to in my statement? That the law is not new? I didn't mean it was literally new as of today, I meant that it is recently new.

Is it the "Mexican-looking" part? I don't know what else would give "reason to suspect that the individual might be in the country illegally."

Please elaborate.
   29. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4396841)
#14 The first thing I thought of was that it was encoded. I tried rot13, but:

Nffhzvat gung'f fnepnfz, creuncf gur Qrzbpengf fubhyq fgbc gelvat gb vzcyrzrag Zrkvpb'f tha ynjf va gur HF juvyr vzcbegvat graf bs zvyyvbaf bs npghny, lbh xabj, Zrkvpnaf?

Didn't make much more sense.


I don't know, I think it sounds much better in the original Klingon.
   30. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4396844)
my personal belief is that laws that specifically target immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for any form of disciplinary legal action based solely on being perceived as 'an other' are attacking the very idea of what is 'america'.

i don't like it, i think it speaks poorly of us as citizens, i loathe the politicians who exploit this issue for personal gain and it makes us a lesser nation.

and i have been a voting republican for longer than most posters here have been alive so if anyone is going to try and brand me you can pound sand.

   31. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4396845)
Is it the "Mexican-looking" part?

Yup. Of course, if the Grantland author had bothered to explain that none of the liberal justices found the key provision to SB 1070 unconstitutional, it might have made for a less sensational story.
   32. JJ1986 Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4396848)
Of course, if the Grantland author had bothered to explain that none of the liberal justices found the key provision to SB 1070 unconstitutional, it might have made for a less sensational story.


It can still be a racist embarrassment even if its constitutional.
   33. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4396853)
Please drink up then.


Thanks, but I'll pass.
   34. Tim Wallach was my Hero Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4396855)
Hallelujah Harveys.
   35. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4396856)
It can still be a racist embarrassment even if its constitutional.

As the Court made clear, that depends on how the provision gets implemented. If it had been prima facie racist, there is no way it would have survived the legal challenge.
   36. Blastin Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4396860)
It can still be a racist embarrassment even if its constitutional.


Yes. I see a lot of this head-sand-insertion, just waving it off as constitutional when it still might very well be ###### up. Lots of laws are ###### up. It's not wrong to point this out if we feel this way.
   37. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4396862)
Yup. Of course, if the Grantland author had bothered to explain that none of the liberal justices found the key provision to SB 1070 unconstitutional, it might have made for a less sensational story.

Right, because the issue isn't ripe and they want to see how it's implemented. I'm not sure why you're hanging your hat on that decision.

Edit: You acknowledge that in #35, but I don't think the prima facie vs. as applied distinction is very important.
   38. CrosbyBird Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:41 PM (#4396863)
I always carry my passport in Canada. I feel my rights are being violated.

Do you need a passport now for Canadian travel? I used my license last time I went.

my personal belief is that laws that specifically target immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for any form of disciplinary legal action based solely on being perceived as 'an other' are attacking the very idea of what is 'america'.

I couldn't agree more.

The only change I'd make here is to broaden the statement, replacing "immigrants, illegal or otherwise" with "people."
   39. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4396866)
my personal belief is that laws that specifically target immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for any form of disciplinary legal action based solely on being perceived as 'an other' are attacking the very idea of what is 'america'.

I couldn't agree more.


Ditto
   40. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4396870)
Nffhzvat gung'f fnepnfz, creuncf gur Qrzbpengf fubhyq fgbc gelvat gb vzcyrzrag Zrkvpb'f tha ynjf va gur HF juvyr vzcbegvat graf bs zvyyvbaf bs npghny, lbh xabj, Zrkvpnaf?


Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
   41. Blastin Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4396883)
If it had been prima facie racist, there is no way it would have survived the legal challenge.


Because the SCOTUS has never condoned something racist.
   42. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:07 PM (#4396884)
[38] You need proof of US citizenship -- but that might be as much about getting back into the US as it is entering Canada. I know the state of Washington is issuing "Enhanced IDs" that require proof of citizenship, and those can be used at the border crossing.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4396889)
my personal belief is that laws that specifically target immigrants, illegal or otherwise, for any form of disciplinary legal action based solely on being perceived as 'an other' are attacking the very idea of what is 'america'.

i don't like it, i think it speaks poorly of us as citizens, i loathe the politicians who exploit this issue for personal gain and it makes us a lesser nation.


QFT.. Especially that first sentence. Agree 100%.

Yes. I see a lot of this head-sand-insertion, just waving it off as constitutional when it still might very well be ###### up. Lots of laws are ###### up. It's not wrong to point this out if we feel this way.


Have to agree here also.
   44. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4396894)
Here's Serrano on the legacy of Hugo Chavez:

Serrano wrote, “At his core he was a man who came from very little and used his unique talents and gifts to try to lift up the people and the communities that reflected his impoverished roots. He believed that the government of the country should be used to empower the masses, not the few. He understood democracy and basic human desires for a dignified life. His legacy in his nation, and in the hemisphere, will be assured as the people he inspired continue to strive for a better life for the poor and downtrodden.”


So he's in agreement with most of the world's view of Chavez. This assessment is only radical to an American. Sorry.
   45. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4396897)
Here is the East Valley Tribune's Pulitzer-winning series on the price paid by Maricopa County residents for Joe's anti-immigration push.

The NY Times sums up:
His deputies failed to investigate or conducted only the sketchiest of inquiries into hundreds of sex crimes between 2005 and 2007, investigations by Arizona law enforcement agencies have shown. Many of those cases involved molested children.
   46. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4396902)
Canadians need a passport to get into the US now, since 2009 or so.
   47. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4396909)
Always find it rich when people who just up and decided this was their country get upset when other people try to join them.

You don't understand---This is different!

(Note to Ray and SBB: That was sarcasm.)

For the record, being descended from slaves and native Americans, maybe 5% of my ancestors could possibly have come here illegally (unless you really want to be awful and call being transported against your will the same thing). But because everyone thinks I look Hispanic (working in the ESL world and living in East Harlem doesn't help), in AZ, I'd be suspicious. I have no use for that state, though. It was very pretty the two times I went, but that's plenty.

The corollary to that is that any white person here whose ancestors first migrated to the U.S. before 1921 never had to deal with any sort of racial or ethnic quota system.** This makes these exclusionary sentiments particularly rich when they come from the many millions of whites whose ancestors fall into that category.

**And Sheriff Joe is particularly lucky, since his Italian father came here in 1923, one year before Congress pretty much cut off all immigration from southern Europe. If that law had been passed just two years earlier, Sheriff Joe would've been born and raised in Italy.
   48. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4396914)
So he's in agreement with most of the world's view of Chavez.

Well, then it must be true.
   49. madvillain Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4396919)
I've spent some time in Phoenix and it's just a weird, weird place. The entire metro area is built around this southwest motif, complete with trendy "authentic" Mexican restaurants, high end resorts with Native themed names like "Talking Stick" and the adobe style architecture of the Spanish / Natives. Then you go to Scottsdale and one of their malls and you're surrounded by Whiteness, palpable Whiteness with new money and khakis and iPads as you wander around high-end stores like Tiffany's and Saks.

New Money Anglos have made a haven in the desert and they conveniently pick and choose when they want to acquiesce to the culture of the Natives and the Mexicans. That high end "Cantina" with the $8 Margaritas is fine, but none of those damn workers better be illegals! Maintaining the many garden oasis circling the pools of Scottsdale is great, but don't ask "papi" if he's got any illegals on the crew, heck, you might run for congress one day...better to not ask, not tell.

And those two brown, tatted up guys in the 2013 Ford F-150? How did they get that truck anyways? Probably drugs, right?

______________________________

These are just my impressions of PHX from a few holidays spent there over the past years. I'm sure there are plenty of upstanding non-racists there in the desert, but it's an uneasy peace they've made with the land and culture. NYC is a segregated ass city, but at least everyone has to pretend to get along on their commute to work or lunch break. In PHX you can pretend that nothing exists except white skin, at least until you're thirsty for that margarita or your pool needs cleaning.
   50. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4396928)
That high end "Cantina" with the $8 Margaritas is fine, but none of those damn workers better be illegals!


Unless you're an investor in the restaurant, in which case they damn well better be, just as long as you have plausible deniability. Or are we past that, and we just use the threat of illegal labor to suppress wages on legal labor?

Edit: Is PHX the cultural equivalent of the trope of the suburbs that cut all the trees down, then name the streets after them?
   51. Blastin Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4396929)
NYC is a segregated ass city, but at least everyone has to pretend to get along on their commute to work or lunch break. In PHX you can pretend that nothing exists except white skin, at least until you're thirsty for that margarita or your pool needs cleaning.



The latter is true of a lot of cities where sprawl and lengthy car-based commutes are the norm. Here, even if you take the Metro-North from an incredibly rich area... you gotta go through Harlem to get to Grand Central. We're still plenty discriminatory, but we can't ignore each other as easily. Which is why the story of this guy is funny.

But the issue is Phoenix, a place I also found very odd. I liked Northern AZ but Phoenix...



   52. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4396934)
I live in the Phoenix area, and madvillain's take is fairly spot-on.

Maybe I should do a Reddit AMA - I live here! Any questions?

Maintaining the many garden oasis circling the pools of Scottsdale is great, but don't ask "papi" if he's got any illegals on the crew, heck, you might run for congress one day...better to not ask, not tell.
My story is, six years ago, I hired a company to remove the popcorn ceiling in a house I had just bought. Showed up to pay them - "them" being the two Anglo foreman, who wore dust masks, and the three unmasked fellows of questionable legality. I took one look at the crew, decided I didn't want to know, cut the check and hightailed it out of there.
   53. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4396938)
Edit: Is PHX the cultural equivalent of the trope of the suburbs that cut all the trees down, then name the streets after them?
Sort of. Arizona is home to fiercely anti-government people who wouldn't be here if not for the government-subsidized water.
   54. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4396940)
If that law had been passed just two years earlier, Sheriff Joe would've been born and raised in Italy.

Andy, now you're making anti-immigration arguments?

Most segregated city I've ever been in is Jackson MS.
   55. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4396943)
NYC is a segregated ass city, but at least everyone has to pretend to get along on their commute to work or lunch break.


Actually people do "get along" on their commutes and lunch breaks here.
   56. Robinson Cano Plate Like Home Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4396945)
Even before SB 1070, Arizonans were getting stopped by federal Border Patrol checkpoints on major highways throughout the state, where the checking consists almost entirely of checking the skin color of the people in the car. Years ago I had a Bangaladeshi graduate student with me who was rudely harrassed for no good reason except that he hadn't carried his papers with him when we went to the movies. This is and has been federal policy for decades, and Obama hasn't changed it one bit, except that there may actually be more checkpoints now (though I admit I'm not counting).
   57. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4396947)
Showed up to pay them - "them" being the two Anglo foreman, who wore dust masks, and the three unmasked fellows of questionable legality.


Carry more cash and eliminate the middleman?
   58. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4396948)
If that law had been passed just two years earlier, Sheriff Joe would've been born and raised in Italy.

Andy, now you're making anti-immigration arguments?


Well-played, sir.
   59. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4396961)
high end resorts with Native themed names like "Talking Stick"


For some reason I first read "resorts" as "escorts." Much funnier that way.
   60. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4396963)
Most segregated city I've ever been in is Jackson MS.


When was this? I wonder if it still is; I know Jackson only as a place to drive through en route to Arkansas from Alabama & vice versa.

Even my small hometown (2,000, more or less) in SW Arkansas, as I noted while driving by the now-vacant lot where my great-aunt's house used to stand, is desegregated these days. The little house the next lot over (& I mean little ... 500 square feet, maybe? I used to mow the now-dead owner's lawn when I was a kid) apparently houses black tenants, & so do at least a couple of houses the next block over. I imagine there was no end of pearl-clutching when that started happening, presumably in the '90s, but hell, the place is dying on the vine (the only employer of any size shut down 8 years ago); they're lucky anyone wants to live there.

(When I was growing up, of course, "the quarters" -- to use the polite term -- was where the black people lived, literally on the other side of the tracks on two sides of town. See also: I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, most of which occurs in the larger section.)

   61. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4396975)
Seven years ago or so and I haven't seen enough of the city that you should trust my opinion but... where I was (which is wherever my sister-in-law took us, which could be the real driver here) I never saw people of different races talking to each other outside of service roles. Go to a restaurant and it'd be some people over here, other people over there. I wasn't looking for anything, but I sure as hell saw it.

Living in Danville VA in the mid 80s, I got in a number of fights for having black friends (I'm a white dude). *That* was a bad scene, but I can't speak for what that's like now.
   62. madvillain Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4396982)
Actually people do "get along" on their commutes and lunch breaks here.


For sure, although having experienced a couple hot summers in Crown Heights, I can say the tension is always simmering beneath the surface. For example the famous 1991 ambulance incident where a Jewish private ambulance "refused" (the account differs) service to a Guyanese boy laying in the street after he was hit by a Jewish motorcade. Even 15 years later that incident was fresh in the consciousness of the neighborhood.
   63. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4396988)
I obviously grew up in the backwoods, pretty much, & we hardly ever traveled. The first time I remember seeing blacks living in the same neighborhood as whites was during a visit to my aunts' house in Baton Rouge, of all places. This would've been in, I guess, the mid-'70s.
   64. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4396990)
where a Jewish private ambulance


Initially read that as "Jewish primate ambulance." I don't suppose BTF is anywhere near to offering coverage, though.
   65. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4396994)
Initially read that as "Jewish primate ambulance." I don't suppose BTF is anywhere near to offering coverage, though.


Thanks Obama!
   66. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4397001)
anti-government people who wouldn't be here if not for the government-subsidized water.


Haha, too true. The days are numbered for cities like Phoenix, Vegas, Palm Springs, etc.
   67. Robinson Cano Plate Like Home Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4397005)
They're would be a lot more water in the Colorado if southern California weren't drinking so much.
   68. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4397009)
Living in Danville VA in the mid 80s, I got in a number of fights for having black friends (I'm a white dude). *That* was a bad scene, but I can't speak for what that's like now.

Der K, it could have been worse. You could have lived in Danville in the 60's, when it was one of hot spots of the civil rights movement and white resistance to integration. This attached PDF file of a contemporary SNCC pamphlet might be worth checking out if you ever get curious about the Danville BITGOD.
   69. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4397010)
When McCain rails against ethanol subsidies, the obvious follow-up should be to ask his opinion on the Bureau of Reclamation.
   70. BDC Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4397018)
I know Jackson only as a place to drive through

I'm fixing to drive through there tomorrow on my way to Georgia; I'll see if I have any deliverable impressions :)

Among places where I've spent much time, I'd say Philadelphia has been unique for racial hostility on an everyday basis. I don't know quite what drives it: bad history, ill will. I went to high school near Philly and have visited pretty continuously since. One can still witness tensions, but it's nothing like it was in the late 60s and through the 70s. That was a nightmare. As gef notes, this is a fluid process, and places change a lot.

I've never experienced much racial tension anywhere in the South: granted I didn't move here till the late 1980s. Almost invariably, people of all ethnicities have been much, much nicer in the south, to me, and to one another, than anyone in New England or Philly or New Jersey. (New York is a world unto itself that I won't get into here.)

I've seen weird throwback stuff: once saw a black couple ignored in a drugstore in Arkansas while the white clerk served white person after white person, while the couple became considerably more WTF as the process dragged on; but no voices were raised. I was in a small town in Alabama about 15 years ago that clearly in retrospect had a white side and a black side, and I innocently shopped on the black side (I am pretty excessively white, myself). Several black people approached me and said hello, one commented on my car ("I say, I have a brother in Fort Worth!") as if to be as welcoming and as consciously noticing of my difference as possible; later, as I walked over to the white side, I was pretty much ignored. It was an interesting dynamic, very gracious. Not at all "You're on the wrong side of town!" but rather "Oh my, you are from far away, aren't you?"
   71. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4397019)
Great. The author chooses to feature quotes from two of America's more radical political voices, Sheriff Joe and Serrano.

Moderates are boring. Crazy people attract eyeballs. Red meat, damn it, red meat!
   72. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4397021)
anti-government people who wouldn't be here if not for the government-subsidized water.


As it happens, I worked part-time in the Salt River Project's historical archives my last couple of semesters in grad school at ASU about 3 decades ago. The history of SRP was the history of Phoenix, pretty much.
   73. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4397024)
I only know Jackson from Charlie Daniels' "Uneasy Rider."
   74. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4397025)
I'm fixing to drive through there tomorrow on my way to Georgia;


Good god -- what brought this on?

Is it to late to seek treatment?
   75. Steve Treder Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4397027)
what brought this on?

Looking for a soul to steal?
   76. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4397040)
Most segregated city I've ever been in is Jackson MS.


St. Mary's County in Maryland, where I lived for 13 years, was also pretty segregated (and I think still is although it's been a while since I went back). I worked at a Navy facility there (not at Patuxent River, but nearby) with an African-American co-worker who never went out with us after work to our place of choice. It took me a long time to realize that the reason he didn't do so was because our place of choice was a "white bar".

-- MWE
   77. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4397044)
Comment deleted, dup.
   78. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4397045)
As it happens, I worked part-time in the Salt River Project's historical archives my last couple of semesters in grad school at ASU about 3 decades ago. The history of SRP was the history of Phoenix, pretty much.
Indeed. Well, SRP and the Hohokams, as they're the ones who gave the white settlers the idea to irrigate.

Recently, I was perusing the Wiki entry on Evan Mecham* and came across the part where he ran for Senate in 1962. Although he had won the GOP primary, the party didn't really back him because if he won that meant Carl Hayden lost - and Hayden was, at the time, nursing the Central Arizona Project through Congress.

* - Dunno why. Nostalgia, I suppose. Hey, it got us the opening concert of U2's Joshua Tree tour!
   79. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4397049)
Mecham became governor after I moved back to Arkansas, so a lot of that I didn't know.

I hate to say it, but upon reading the following in that Wiki article --

Health issues, such as Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease, first reported in 2004, forced Mecham's withdrawal from the public arena and his commitment to the dementia unit of the Arizona State Veteran Home

-- I genuinely wondered, "How could they tell?"
   80. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4397057)
One neat thing about working at the SRP job was that one spring, my window looked out over where the A's trained. This would've been the spring of '83 & maybe '84, & they didn't exactly go on to set the AL West on fire, but still.
   81. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4397059)
Ev was amazing.
In response to claims that he was a racist, Mecham said, "I've got black friends. I employ black people. I don't employ them because they are black; I employ them because they are the best people who applied for the cotton-picking job."
   82. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4397063)
Is there a way to read #12 that allows it to make any sense?
It sounds more sensible if you drink about a gallon of bleach first.
#14 The first thing I thought of was that it was encoded. I tried rot13, but:

Nffhzvat gung'f fnepnfz, creuncf gur Qrzbpengf fubhyq fgbc gelvat gb vzcyrzrag Zrkvpb'f tha ynjf va gur HF juvyr vzcbegvat graf bs zvyyvbaf bs npghny, lbh xabj, Zrkvpnaf?

Didn't make much more sense.

Do we really have three people claiming that #12 is either wrong or incomprehensible?

***
The corollary to that is that any white person here whose ancestors first migrated to the U.S. before 1921 never had to deal with any sort of racial or ethnic quota system.** This makes these exclusionary sentiments particularly rich when they come from the many millions of whites whose ancestors fall into that category.

Andy, your "quota" argument seems rather weak, given that Mexico has already sent more immigrants to the U.S. than Italy, Germany, Poland, Greece, and the Scandinavian countries — combined.
   83. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4397066)
Mecham & the Tea Party would've been a match made in heaven.
   84. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4397082)
Mecham's backers were the Proterozoic Era's Tea Party.
   85. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4397087)
They're would be a lot more water in the Colorado if southern California weren't drinking so much.

Keep you hands off my water! The illegal that does my gardening just got my sprinklers set up perfectly. It was definitely a job that this American didn't want to do.
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4397089)
Do we really have three people claiming that #12 is either wrong or incomprehensible?


I'm sure more people thought it was wrong or typical insane rant from the tinfoil hat brigade. We just decided that the other jokes were good enough.

We could argue that it's Republicans and their lack of enforcement among business owners that is the true import of "tens of millions" of Mexicans.
   87. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4397091)
Do we really have three people claiming that #12 is either wrong or incomprehensible?


Assuming that's sarcasm, perhaps the Democrats should stop trying to implement Mexico's gun laws in the US while importing tens of millions of actual, you know, Mexicans?


1: "Assuming that's sarcasm": Yes saying "And if there's a country America should aspire to be more like, its Mexico." is sarcasm.

2: "perhaps the Democrats should stop trying to implement Mexico's gun laws" no they are not, but since the "Dems are trying to implement __________'s [insert random country with negative image WRT either crime or government oppression] is a current conservative meme - I'll let it go.

3: "while importing tens of millions of actual, you know, Mexicans?" so basically you are saying that a liberal shouldn't make a sarcastic crack about a conservative wanting to emulate/copy Mexico on some issue, while liberals are trying to both copy Mexico's gun laws and import Mexicans

No it is not "incomprehensible," its' just so completely wrongheaded at every step-

Liberals are not trying to implement Mexican style gun laws, nor are they importing "tens of millions" of Mexicans- to be more specific those doing the "importing" are those hiring and paying said Mexicans, and I daresay that while those "importers" may be bi-partisan - they lean Republican...

so your response, while not incomprehensible, is complete nonetheless comeplete and utter nonsense.
   88. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4397093)
We could argue that it's Republicans and their lack of enforcement among business owners that is the true import of "tens of millions" of Mexicans.


We can state it as a self evident truth.

   89. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4397096)
Liberals are not trying to implement Mexican style gun laws, nor are they importing "tens of millions" of Mexicans- to be more specific those doing the "importing" are those hiring and paying said Mexicans, and I daresay that while those "importers" may be bi-partisan - they lean Republican...

LOL.
   90. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4397099)
Ah, never mind.
   91. The Good Face Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4397106)
It's not that hard JSLF; if Mexico is a country that sucks, then why would we want to make America more like Mexico? And adopting their laws and stealing their population would both qualify.

The Democrats would love to implement Mexico's gun laws. They'll fail if push comes to shove, but if they could, they would.

Both parties are certainly to blame for importing tens of millions of Mexicans, but only one party wants those Mexicans to stay forever as citizens.
   92. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4397107)
The corollary to that is that any white person here whose ancestors first migrated to the U.S. before 1921 never had to deal with any sort of racial or ethnic quota system.** This makes these exclusionary sentiments particularly rich when they come from the many millions of whites whose ancestors fall into that category.

Andy, your "quota" argument seems rather weak, given that Mexico has already sent more immigrants to the U.S. than Italy, Germany, Poland, Greece, and the Scandinavian countries — combined.


That'd be a much more telling rebuttal if we hadn't been spending the last few decades trying to arrest and deport so many of them. The only Europeans sent back before 1921 were known criminals, the feebleminded, and those with communicable diseases. Those "illegal immigrants" of today should be so lucky.

And BTW when did your people come over on the boat? From your name I'm assuming they were either pre-1924 immigrants or later political refugees, but obviously that's just a guess.
   93. cardsfanboy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4397112)
Both parties are certainly to blame for importing tens of millions of Mexicans, but only one party wants those Mexicans to stay forever as citizens.


I was thinking only one party is christian enough to realize that these people have it bad, and piling on more crap and punishment is not the neighborly thing to do. The other party on the other hand, sees a non-white skin who isn't in jail, and is trying to find ways to put them in jail.(Guarantee you, that we aren't that far off from Republicans pushing for debtor's prison soon) After all, Jesus believed in walking around with weapons and taking advantage of the weak.

   94. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4397113)
Both parties are certainly to blame for importing tens of millions of Mexicans, but only one party wants those Mexicans to stay forever as citizens.

I'm assuming that your ancestors must have sold Manhattan to the Indians before the Dutch came along, you blueblooded rascal, you. Although maybe I had more time to spend, perhaps I could find Big Chief Good Face referenced in some ancient genealogy book.
   95. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4397114)
The only Europeans sent back before 1921 were known criminals, the feebleminded, and those with communicable diseases.


What about the Soviet Ark? I guess you could call Red Emma & her fellow leftists (who actually were leftists, of course, not the weak-tea liberals who make the SBBs & their ilk wet their pants in fear these days) "known criminals," at least in the eyes of A. Mitchell Palmer & all too many "real Americans," but I'd say that's a stretch.
   96. Greg K Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4397115)
And BTW when did your people come over on the boat? From your name I'm assuming they were either pre-1924 immigrants or later political refugees, but obviously that's just a guess.

I got all (ok, probably just most) of you suckers beat! Documentary evidence proves my ancestors were illegally distilling spirits in America as early as the 1680s. Unfortunately they were hounded out of America for their political beliefs a century later.
   97. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4397116)
I was thinking only one party is christian enough to realize that these people have it bad, and piling on more crap and punishment is not the neighborly thing to do.

You don't understand, cfb. Jesus was the Donald Trump of his day, with no time for sentimental drivel like that.
   98. Blastin Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:46 PM (#4397117)
Yeah, Greg, you're not beating me.
   99. cardsfanboy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4397118)
I got all (ok, probably just most) of you suckers beat! Documentary evidence proves my ancestors were illegally distilling spirits in America as early as the 1680s. Unfortunately they were hounded out of America for their political beliefs a century later.


Not sure when we came over, just know that both parents lineage(on the North America continent) predate the Revolutionary war, not sure by how much though.

   100. Greg K Posted: March 26, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4397119)
Yeah, Greg, you're not beating me.

But I'm close right? I mean, relative to the age of the Earth.
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