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Friday, April 12, 2013

Greinke ends up with broken collarbone after brawl

Word to Carlos Quentin: Assuming you aren’t suspended, the pitch headed towards you in next week’s series with the Dodgers is probably going to be intentional.

Gamingboy Posted: April 12, 2013 at 03:40 AM | 280 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: carlos quentin, dodgers, padres, zack greinke

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   1. Greg K Posted: April 12, 2013 at 05:55 AM (#4411466)
Apparently Quentin and Kemp had a to-do in the parking lot after the game as well, broken up by the ever-amiable Clayton Richard.
   2. Drexl Spivey Posted: April 12, 2013 at 06:15 AM (#4411468)
Please heal quickly. I love watching that guy pitch.
   3. Russ Posted: April 12, 2013 at 06:26 AM (#4411470)
Over 6% of Greinke's MLB career HBP's have been doled out to Quentin... I know these guys were in the same division for a while, but that seems, um, high.
   4. John Northey Posted: April 12, 2013 at 06:57 AM (#4411474)
Yeah, the umps should probably warn both benches pre-game next time. If I was Quentin I would not be digging in. For the Dodgers, make sure you have lots of relievers ready - good time for an experiment in 9 man bullpens perhaps.
   5. Dan Posted: April 12, 2013 at 06:58 AM (#4411475)
Quentin gets hit with 20+ pitches per year, assuming he's healthy enough to get enough ABs. It's hardly surprising that Greinke hit him multiple times since they were in the same divsion. The guy hangs over the plate and refuses to ever move out of the way of pitches, and he's going to ascribe intent to pitchers? What a moronic #########. I hope he gets at least 10 games.
   6. JE (Jason) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:04 AM (#4411478)
What's this, designated-hitter lovers? There's a way for pitchers to get injured without picking up a bat or running the bases?
   7. Bug Selig Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:17 AM (#4411482)
Over 6% of Greinke's MLB career HBP's have been doled out to Quentin... I know these guys were in the same division for a while, but that seems, um, high.


To be clear, the number you are describing is 3.
   8. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:18 AM (#4411483)
Quentin is scum and should be suspended for 30 games.
   9. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:35 AM (#4411485)
I'm sorry to say this since I traded for Quentin two days ago, but he ###### up here. He was childish and selfish and just cost his team his services for what should be a good long spell. Dumb.
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:37 AM (#4411488)

from the official @Dodgers Twitter account

https://twitter.com/Dodgers/status/322586892111593472/photo/1

#ronburgundy

   11. Ben V-L Posted: April 12, 2013 at 07:55 AM (#4411494)
For what it's worth:

* Greinke's HBP rate is 7.3 per 1000 batters faced. League average is around 7.5 per 1000. Quentin's HBP rate is 41 per 1000 PA.

* It looks like Greinke and Quentin have faced each other 31 times (based on ESPN showing 26 AB and 2 walks, plus the 3 HBP). Quentin averages 1.3 HBP for a randomly selected set of 31 PA from his career.

* Poisson statistics gives a 14% chance that Quentin is hit 3 or more times in a randomly selected sample of 31 PA.
   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:03 AM (#4411498)
I think anyone trying to assign any blame to greinke in this situation is at best misguided but more likely just foolish

he threw a pitch inside, a batter whose style leads him to get hit at an above average rate was struck a glancing blow and the batter decided to make a 'thing' out of it where no 'thing' existed.

   13. jmurph Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:34 AM (#4411509)
ESPN showed some of the "history" between the two. In the video from his White Sox days, Quentin had about 90% of his left arm hanging out over the plate when batting. It looked like it might have been possible to throw a high, inside strike and have it hit him. Kind of hard to feel bad for the guy.
   14. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:36 AM (#4411510)
Unbelievable, the ball hit him in the arm! On a full count. And the pitch was clocked at 89 MPH. If Greinke wanted to hit him, he could have given it a bit more juice than that. I read that the last time Greinke hit Quentin was in 2009. This is all on Quentin and he should get a pretty severe suspension for going after Greinke like that.
   15. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:39 AM (#4411512)
He charged the pitcher on a 3-2 pitch, in a 2-1 game?

That's only a little dumber than the guy who charged Pedro Martinez in the perfect game attempt.

I agree with #4 that Quentin better have some Tylenol/Advil ready in the clubhouse next time they meet as he's going to get his ass/back/arms peppered with pitches.

I'd suggest that the Dodgers charge the Padres good pitcher next time they throw inside, but I don't know who that would be on the Padres? None of their starters have an ERA+ above 100...
   16. Publius Publicola Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:47 AM (#4411515)
Watching the video, Scully was explaining why Kemp was especially aroused, having a ball thrown over his head on an 0-2 count.

What do you do in a situation like this, where a player is injured due to fisticuffs? I would argue he stays suspended until Greinke can make his way back. That or a minimum 30 games.
   17. jmurph Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:53 AM (#4411521)
What do you do in a situation like this, where a player is injured due to fisticuffs? I would argue he stays suspended until Greinke can make his way back. That or a minimum 30 games.


Hmm, I'm inclined to say that you punish the act, not the result. A guy who does the exact same thing that Quentin did to a pitcher with a stronger clavicle isn't exactly innocent, you know?
   18. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:53 AM (#4411522)
I'd suggest that the Dodgers charge the Padres good pitcher next time they throw inside, but I don't know who that would be on the Padres? None of their starters have an ERA+ above 100...

Edinson Volquez is certainly their most famous pitcher, and also may be the most likely to throw inside. Since the Padres are going to suck anyway no matter who has a broken collarbone, that's who you should go for.

Their best pitcher at the moment would be Eric Stults, who appeared out of nowhere to give them 14 strong starts last year at age 32. They also have ex-White Sox prospect Clayton Richard, ex-A's prospect Tyson Ross, and Jason Marquis.
   19. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:54 AM (#4411523)
This is all on Quentin and he should get a pretty severe suspension for going after Greinke like that.


I'd like to see the Dodgers sue him for $550,000 for every game Greinke misses.

On another note, why is Greinke making so much money? Yeah, I know, because someone decided to pay him that much. Yeah, he had that one transcendent season, 4 years ago. aside from that, he's been a good but hardly spectacular pitcher. Sort of a poor man's Mark Buehrle.

Seasons of 120 ERA+ and 200 IP:

Buehrle 8
Greinke 2

OK, Buehrle's older. Through age 28, Buehrle had 5, including seasons of 144, 140, and 130. Greinke's 2 are 205 and 125.
   20. bunyon Posted: April 12, 2013 at 08:58 AM (#4411525)
Screw throwing at him. Next time the chance arises, 4 or 5 Dodgers ought to see to it Quentin breaks a clavicle. Or two.

Hitters charging the mound should be suspended 50 games. I get the anger, but hitters hang over the plate, wear pads and then get incensed over a glancing blow. It's time the pendulum starts back the other way, I think. Give the inner half back to the pitchers.
   21. Dan Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:02 AM (#4411528)
On another note, why is Greinke making so much money? Yeah, I know, because someone decided to pay him that much. Yeah, he had that one transcendent season, 4 years ago. aside from that, he's been a good but hardly spectacular pitcher. Sort of a poor man's Mark Buehrle.


Because the Dodgers see his peripherals and think that they can be the team to get him to match his results to them. Presumably the Dodgers think they can help Greinke with better coaching and defense and such, but we'll see. If he ever stays on the field anyway.
   22. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:04 AM (#4411530)
What do you do in a situation like this, where a player is injured due to fisticuffs? I would argue he stays suspended until Greinke can make his way back.

That's always been my preferred solution.

Hmm, I'm inclined to say that you punish the act, not the result. A guy who does the exact same thing that Quentin did to a pitcher with a stronger clavicle isn't exactly innocent, you know?

Basically all systems use at least partial outcome based punishments. It's a simple way of accounting for severity of the act, without having to subjectively guesstimate.
   23. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4411531)
i thought mlb had cut back on how much protective gear batters could wear?
   24. Ron J2 Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4411532)
#20 I think you can trace most of this back to Al Cowens/Ed Farmer. Farmer put two Royals on the DL (broken jaw, broken hand) in the same game and the league did nothing. Cowens (among others) was very upset. There was the sense that if the league's not going to do anything we'll have to take care of it ourselves.
   25. Dan Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4411533)
Hitters charging the mound should be suspended 50 games. I get the anger, but hitters hang over the plate, wear pads and then get incensed over a glancing blow. It's time the pendulum starts back the other way, I think. Give the inner half back to the pitchers.


Step one needs to be that guys who don't even try to avoid the ball shouldn't be awarded the free base. Quentin is the worst offender in MLB on this count. And umpires need to call it a strike if a guy is hanging over the plate and gets hit with a ball in the strike zone. Of course in this situation, Quentin would've been given a ball rather than a HBP which would've resulted in a walk anyway, but of his 20+ HBP in a full season, he should probably really only be credited with 4 or 5 if the umpires were to call the rule as written in the rulebook.
   26. jmurph Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4411534)
On another note, why is Greinke making so much money?


Fortuitous timing, I think. Starting pitching in demand (as always), a rich team looking to make a splash, and not many other good pitchers on the market (Edwin Jackson, Anibal Sanchez... Dempster? Who else?).
   27. Greg K Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4411535)
Yeah, he had that one transcendent season, 4 years ago. aside from that, he's been a good but hardly spectacular pitcher. Sort of a poor man's Mark Buehrle.

I think the short answer is strikeouts. Teams are a lot more willing to gamble on a guy who strikeouts 8-9 per 9, than a guy who hovers around 5.

Buehrle's a bit of a problematic comparison in that he's pushing the limits of the kind of pitcher you can be and have sustained success. Whereas guys who can blow hitters away will always get the benefit of the doubt.
   28. Dan Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:07 AM (#4411536)
i thought mlb had cut back on how much protective gear batters could wear?


They did a few years ago, but all the players with weird/crazy stuff just got doctor's notes that said they needed it due to previous injuries in the area(s) that they're protecting. So it didn't really accomplish anything.
   29. dirk Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4411540)
quentin probably has picture of erik bedard (9PA - 3HBP) stuck to his mirror that he shadowboxes to every morning.
   30. AROM Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4411541)
Brian Downing and Don Baylor got hit by a lot of pitches. I don't remember ever seeing those guys charge the mound. Same with Biggio. Quentin sure seems like he's trying to make the HBP a significant part of his OBP, just like those players did. You should not get upset when you get what you are asking for.

When I was playing I took the Downing/Baylor approach. Crowded the plate to where I could comfortably handle a pitch on the outside corner, and took my share of HBP. I was happy to get on base for every one I took, partly because I wasn't a very good hitter. Never even considered charging the mound or being angry at a pitcher, though one time I did laugh at a pitcher, probably not the best use of my judgment.

The pitcher had really good stuff, and blew 2 fastballs by me, 0-2. Then he tried to back me off the plate, presumably to set up the next pitch outside, and hit me in the forearm. I laughed as I walked to 1B. The dumb pitcher didn't need to follow that formula. Had he just kept throwing over the plate he probably would have had a strikeout.

   31. Styles P. Deadball Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4411542)
#20 I think you can trace most of this back to Al Cowens/Ed Farmer. Farmer put two Royals on the DL (broken jaw, broken hand) in the same game and the league did nothing. Cowens (among others) was very upset. There was the sense that if the league's not going to do anything we'll have to take care of it ourselves.


Yeah, but Cowens hardly covered himself in glory on that one. After hitting a ball into play, he charged the mound and attacked Farmer, who had his back turned watching the ball.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:20 AM (#4411545)
rickie weeks gets hit by a lot of pitches. he barely acknowledges getting hit most of the time
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:24 AM (#4411548)

Step one needs to be that guys who don't even try to avoid the ball shouldn't be awarded the free base. Quentin is the worst offender in MLB on this count.


I don't know how this would help. Generally speaking, guys who get just accept getting hit (including Quentin, until yesterday) don't charge the mound. Don Baylor, Chet Lemon, Biggio - those guys just turned their shoulder and took their base.

The batter's welcome to cortort himself to get out of the way if he wants to avoid getting hit. David Ortiz is masterful at this, despite his size. But no batter should be required to even try.

And umpires need to call it a strike if a guy is hanging over the plate and gets hit with a ball in the strike zone.


In or over. Hell, I'd have no problem if any pitch that hit a batter outside the box was called a strike, even if it was not over the zone, if that's what MLB decided.
   34. Ron J2 Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4411550)
#31 That's the way to go if you really want a one on one with the pitcher. On a groundball everybody has something else to do and nobody can get between you and the pitcher.

I think that hitters as a group decided that:

a) They were tired of being thrown at
b) The league wasn't doing enough
c) Cowens went too far.

It's now become a ritual.

If you go back in history you'll find that it wasn't uncommon for hitters to want a piece of a pitcher they thought was throwing at them. Prior to the 1950s though nobody would intervene.

The last time I can find mention of teammates not getting involved was Joe Adcock/Pedro Gomez. And the stories on that are pretty interesting. Apparently Gomez didn't want anything to do with fighting Adcock and Adcock chased him all over the park. Gomez supposedly went back to his locker and got a knife. Willie Mays is supposed to have talked him out of going after Adcock with it.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4411552)
If you go back in history you'll find that it wasn't uncommon for hitters to want a piece of a pitcher they thought was throwing at them. Prior to the 1950s though nobody would intervene.

The last time I can find mention of teammates not getting involved was Joe Adcock/Pedro Gomez. And the stories on that are pretty interesting. Apparently Gomez didn't want anything to do with fighting Adcock and Adcock chased him all over the park. Gomez supposedly went back to his locker and got a knife. Willie Mays is supposed to have talked him out of going after Adcock with it.


What was the backstory on that famous Enos Slaughter fight, where he ended up with his jersey shredded? Pretty sure it was a one-on-one.
   36. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:36 AM (#4411555)
The batter's welcome to cortort himself to get out of the way if he wants to avoid getting hit. David Ortiz is masterful at this, despite his size. But no batter should be required to even try.

Either the batter has to try to get out of the way, or only contact that is inside the actual batters box should count as a HBP. Any other rule is just insane.
   37. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:37 AM (#4411556)

Yeah, but Cowens hardly covered himself in glory on that one. After hitting a ball into play, he charged the mound and attacked Farmer, who had his back turned watching the ball.


Ripped Farmer's nostrils too. IIRC, there was a chance Cowens was going to be unable to make the next road trip to Chicago because of possible pending criminal charges until Farmer decided not to press charges in return for an handshake.
   38. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:40 AM (#4411559)
What a scumbag. That pitch wasn't that far inside and Quentin made no effort to get out of the way. And charging the mound to do the standard shoving and half-hearted smacks is bad enough, but what Quentin did was far worse IMO. He looked like he was trying to injure Grienke. He deserves a 50 game suspension. Maybe more.
   39. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4411563)
I wanted to make fun of the ridiculous bull charge Greinke and Quentin did at the beginning of the scuffle...but I guess that's where he broke his collarbone.

also note to self: Don't go to sleep and miss west coast games.
   40. PepTech Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4411566)
Step one needs to be that guys who don't even try to avoid the ball shouldn't be awarded the free base.

Heck, that's already in the rule book. Anyone ever seen it called?

The definition of a strike includes a batter getting hit in the strike zone (Rule 2.00), and the definition of HBP in 6.08(b) says this:

[The batter is awarded first when] touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (1) The ball
is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (2) The batter makes no attempt
to avoid being touched by the ball;

If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike,
whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone
when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid
being touched.


More interesting to me is the fact that Quentin never touched first, and therefore should have been out - the only rule that sort of covers this is 5.10(c)(1), and I don't think a brawl can be constituted as an "accident". That rule is never called either. Without rules, it's anarchy, I tell you!
   41. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:53 AM (#4411570)
Quentin is a ####### moron.
   42. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4411571)
Yeah, but Cowens hardly covered himself in glory on that one. After hitting a ball into play, he charged the mound and attacked Farmer, who had his back turned watching the ball.


I happened to think it was quite glorious. Cowens was one of the better players in baseball not long before the beaning, and Farmer threw at him (*) and derailed his career.

(*) Farmer hadn't hit a guy since 1973 and beaned two Royals in the same game in 1979 including Cowens in the jaw.
   43. donlock Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4411572)
Last September 9 Nick Markakis of the Orioles was hit on the hand by C.C.Sabathia, broke his thumb, and was lost for the remainder of the season and playoffs. According to some of the logic in these posts, Sabathia should have been suspended from pitching until Markakis could play again. That is, the player who caused the injury should not benefit from the other team's loss.
One difference is that the injury occurred in a brawl , not part of the game. However , if Quentin was hurt and Greinke was not, would anyone suggest Greinke be suspended until Quentin returned?
   44. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4411574)
Anyone ever seen it called?


Like once in the 70's.
   45. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:55 AM (#4411575)
#40 That would have been spectacularly amusing to see them call him out at first. I would have laughed and laughed.
   46. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 09:59 AM (#4411582)
One difference is that the injury occurred in a brawl , not part of the game.

Just the one difference, huh?
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:01 AM (#4411585)

Either the batter has to try to get out of the way, or only contact that is inside the actual batters box should count as a HBP. Any other rule is just insane.


I included that. It's only an HBP if it's inside the batter's box (or behind, I suppose).

   48. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:02 AM (#4411587)
Anyone ever seen it called?

Once or twice.

   49. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:04 AM (#4411589)
Last September 9 Nick Markakis of the Orioles was hit on the hand by C.C.Sabathia, broke his thumb, and was lost for the remainder of the season and playoffs. According to some of the logic in these posts, Sabathia should have been suspended from pitching until Markakis could play again. That is, the player who caused the injury should not benefit from the other team's loss.
One difference is that the injury occurred in a brawl , not part of the game. However , if Quentin was hurt and Greinke was not, would anyone suggest Greinke be suspended until Quentin returned?


I don't know if I agree that a suspension should track the other player's injury, but I don't think it's a crazy suggestion. The point is that, if a player initiates a fight and the other player is injured, the guy who started it should be suspended until the other guy comes back. So I don't see the relevance of the Markakis example. It wasn't a fight, just bad luck on a HBP. No one thought Sabathia was trying to injure Markakis. At worst, he was trying to back Markakis off a little. Same with Quentin being injured: who cares if he gets injured in a fight he started?
   50. Delino DeShields & Yarnell Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4411594)
Nyjer Morgan was not awarded first base at least a couple of times in the last 2 years after "HBP". One was a "look at me, I'm Bob Davidson" umpired game.
   51. Spahn Insane Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4411595)
They did a few years ago, but all the players with weird/crazy stuff just got doctor's notes that said they needed it due to previous injuries in the area(s) that they're protecting. So it didn't really accomplish anything.

Assuming this is serious, it's absurd. If you've still got "weird/crazy stuff" to deal with such that you can't handle the risk of facing a thrown baseball, then stay the hell on the DL for a while longer.
   52. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:12 AM (#4411596)
Heck, that's already in the rule book. Anyone ever seen it called?

Doug Mientkiewicz against the Mets. I think it was Tyler Clippard's Yankee debut game. I only remember because at the time the Yankee and Mets fans did not get along here and the chatter got pretty heated. This recap talks about it in the notes at the end.
   53. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM (#4411599)
One difference is that the injury occurred in a brawl , not part of the game.


"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
   54. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM (#4411600)
the guy who started it should be suspended


Greinke hit Quentin with a 90 MPH pitch that was 6 inches off the inside corner according to Brooks. I think there is a fair case that Quentin didn't start it. Of course you can then argue that the Padres started it by hitting Kemp.

Last night's brawl didn't look particularly unusual to me. Jackass hitter who should know better charged mound unnecessarily, everyone went a little loopy for a fewminutes. The only difference is that someone got hurt. That sucks but I think the usual 3-5 game suspension for Quentin is appropriate here.
   55. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4411601)
Monday night: "Why is J.P. Howell starting and Billingsly warming up in the pen?"
   56. Ron J2 Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4411605)
#44 It was rather famously invoked during Don Drysdale's shutout streak. (He hit Dick Dietz with the bases loaded and Dietz wasn't awarded 1st)

Top of the 9th

Bases loaded, nobody out, Dodgers up 3-0.

And in 1972 with Ron Hunt. Happened around a half-dozen times in the second half of the season.
   57. PepTech Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4411606)
Double Post, kinda. See #61

   58. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4411607)
I think there is a fair case that Quentin didn't start it.

I don't. I don't think there is any case at all for that argument.
   59. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4411608)
Kemp was never hit Jose, and it was a 3-2 count in a 2-1 game....and 6 inchs off the plate? That's a called strike in the last two Red Sox games.
   60. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4411609)
You ever see those nature videos of two rams clashing horns violently, and then they both bounce backwards but not lose their balance? That was Greinke last night.
   61. PepTech Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4411612)
According to B-Ref, Quentin is 6'2", 240, and Greinke is 6'2", 195.

I always thought pitchers were kinda wimpy for running away, but maybe the littler ones have been judged harshly. Of course, B-Ref lists Nolan Ryan as 6'2", 170, and look what HE did.

No really - I know everyone's seen it a million times, but it's STILL hilaripus :)

Edited to fix link
   62. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM (#4411613)
Greinke, ya gotta sidestep, then the catcher...err..catchs up, and everybody piles on the batter.

edit: Also my dream of the Sox picking up Capuano just went into the shitter.
   63. Mike Emeigh Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:21 AM (#4411615)
#44 It was rather famously invoked during Don Drysdale's shutout streak. (He hit Dick Dietz with the bases loaded and Dietz wasn't awarded 1st)


It was a terrible call by Harry Wendelstedt. And no, I am not a Giants' fan.

-- MWE
   64. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:21 AM (#4411616)
Quentin is totally frustrated as a ball player. He has made the DL his home away from home. The guy simply can not stay on the field long enough to get in a groove. He has an above average offensive skill set and he just can't stay on the field. I understand his frustration at being hit again, by the Dodgers and Greinke -but it could have been anyone. The broken collarbone was / is a fluke and looks like it was caused by his own teammate falling on him, not the initial bump. I also think Mattingly is out of line calling for a suspension as long as Greinke is out. There's no crying in baseball.
   65. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4411618)
I don't. I don't think there is any case at all for that argument.

Agreed. I don't think Greinke was trying to hit Quentin, and even if he was, he didn't throw at Quentin's head. The brawl is all on Quentin.
   66. DL from MN Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4411620)
I saw a non-call on Biggio I believe (could have been Bagwell, I remember it was an Astro) for a pitch that hit armor after they flinched into the ball.
   67. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:28 AM (#4411626)
Don Baylor never used to get out of the way and I never saw an ump refuse to award him the base. I never saw a hitter so oblivious to getting hit as he was.
   68. Cowboy Popup Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:29 AM (#4411628)
I don't think Greinke was trying to hit Quentin

Totally agree. That's a two seamer that broke hard (and was way off location wise looking at the catcher's mitt). The cut on that thing was ridiculous. Pitchers don't throw two seamers that start out over the plate and then cut 8 inches in to hit a guy.
   69. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:29 AM (#4411629)
Quentin's definitely an intense hothead, as he broke his own wrist slamming his bat in frustration in 2008. I don't remember him taking his frustrations out on another player though.
   70. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4411632)
I'm pretty sure I saw Kemp kill someone with a trident.
   71. Mattbert Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:33 AM (#4411638)
Following on from #3 and #29, here are the other pitchers who've hit Carlos Quentin at least three times: Nick Blackburn 4 times in 37 PA, Jon Lester 3 times in 15 PA (!), and Erik Bedard 3 times in 9 PA (!!).

Plus fourteen other guys who've hit him twice, including Jim Johnson 2 times in 8 PA.
   72. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:35 AM (#4411640)
I want Greinke quotes. I can't wait to hear what he has to say about this, but I can't find anything. Though it's probably still early.
   73. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4411648)
Anyone ever seen it called?


I think it was Joe Crede that I saw denied first base when he was hit by a pitch several years ago. Hawk Harrelson's reaction to this was as obnoxiously hilarious as you would expect and continued for the rest of the game (hell, it probably continued for a week; I don't watch every White Sox game).
   74. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:51 AM (#4411665)
"I never hit him on purpose. I never even thought about hitting him on purpose," Greinke said. "He always seems to think I'm hitting him on purpose, and that's not the case. That's all I have to say."

EDIT - Here's an expanded version, from SI:
“The only thing I’m going to say about the whole thing that happened there is I’ve never hit him on purpose,” Greinke said. “I never thought of hitting him on purpose. He always seems to think that I’m hitting him on purpose, but, I mean, that’s not the case. “I actually thought it was just a ploy to get people to not throw inside to him. I just feel like he’s trying to intimidate people to throw away. But I don’t know anyone who has hit him on purpose. I know I haven’t. Like I said, I hadn’t even thought about hitting him on purpose before.”




Also, from the above link: "During a 2009 White Sox-Royals game, Quentin had to be stopped from charging the mound after one of those HBPs."
   75. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4411666)
Nobody who watched the sequence of events could think that Greinke really bears responsibility for what happened. it's a 3-2 count, in a tight game, with one out. Greinke threw a two-seamer that clearly (from the place the catcher set up) did not hit its intended spot. And the pitch didn't even sail up or far inside, it merely tagged Quention on his arm (which was hanging out over the plate).

Quentin is an idiot and I hope the Commissioner's office lands on him like a ton of bricks. More importantly, like others here, I really want to see the HBP rule get called according to the book.
   76. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:54 AM (#4411668)
Thanks DK! A bit boring, but also gentlemanly, assuming that's the last thing he says about it.
   77. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4411669)
mlb.com's Corey Brock got a Quentin quote:
“It’s unfortunate about the situation,” Quentin said. “It could have been avoided. You can ask Zack about that. For me, I’ve been hit by many pitches in my career. I think you guys know that. I can tell you I’ve never responded in that fashion, so you guys can do your homework on that. For me, the situation is done. That’s it.”

   78. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4411670)
Thanks DK! A bit boring, but also gentlemanly, assuming that's the last thing he says about it.
Actually, I liked the gesture towards "Quentin is a paranoiac" with "he always seems to think I'm hitting him."
   79. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: April 12, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4411671)
Greinke said some other stuff too (sorry, no link handy) - nothing exciting. Basically how we never wants to fight anybody and how he didn't understand CQ's reaction. Also, there are reports that various Padres apologized to Dodgers for Quentin's reaction.
   80. Tripon Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:03 AM (#4411677)

mlb.com's Corey Brock got a Quentin quote:
“It’s unfortunate about the situation,” Quentin said. “It could have been avoided. You can ask Zack about that. For me, I’ve been hit by many pitches in my career. I think you guys know that. I can tell you I’ve never responded in that fashion, so you guys can do your homework on that. For me, the situation is done. That’s it.”


If anything, this quote should get his suspension lengthened. He's clearly showing he intended to charge the mound BECAUSE Greinke hit him, not just because a pitcher hit him.
   81. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4411678)
Quentin: "Marge, there are two kids of baseball players. Jocks, and nerds. As a jock, it is my duty to give nerds a hard time."
   82. Nasty Nate Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4411702)

If anything, this quote should get his suspension lengthened. He's clearly showing he intended to charge the mound BECAUSE Greinke hit him, not just because a pitcher hit him.


What do you mean by this?
   83. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4411704)
The pitch didn't look at all remarkable.

I support heavy suspensions for beanings and mound-chargings -- and particularly beanings that occur _the next game_ which are clearly retaliatory. But MLB doesn't care about this issue. So we get 50-game suspensions for steroids instead. It's all about Teaching The Children. We can't have The Children thinking that doing steroids is ok; but it's totally cool to have The Children think that settling disputes by throwing hard objects 95mph at each other is fine.

(The funny part is: Why do children think steroids leads to home runs and chicks and fat contracts? Not because people like me are saying that. Not because players like Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds are saying that. It's Selig, the media, and the anti-steroids jihadists saying it.)
   84. Tripon Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4411706)
What do you mean by this?


He's only charging the mound because he assumes that there is this 'history' with Greinke that he made up in his head. He decided before the at bat to do this. The guy isn't just a rageholic, he clearly knew what he was doing.
   85. smileyy Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4411707)
Hitters charging the mound should be suspended 50 games.


This. Why is charging the mound considered acceptable? Carlos Quentin shouldn't have to be worried about being hit by pitches for a while.
   86. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4411708)
and the anti-steroids jihadists saying it

That and a lot of those guys got fat contracts...
   87. Nasty Nate Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:29 AM (#4411714)
He's only charging the mound because he assumes that there is this 'history' with Greinke that he made up in his head.


I don't think this makes it worse or warrants a longer suspension.

He decided before the at bat to do this.


So you think if the pitch had been ball 4, low and away, Quentin would have charged the mound?
   88. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4411717)
#### FUCK #### #####
   89. JE (Jason) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4411718)
If the Dodgers are adamant about getting revenge, they should trade for Jorge Soler, no?
   90. SoSH U at work Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4411719)

He's only charging the mound because he assumes that there is this 'history' with Greinke that he made up in his head. He decided before the at bat to do this. The guy isn't just a rageholic, he clearly knew what he was doing.


We assume he made it up in his head. I think that's most likely, but it's not a given.

Clearly, Quentin, who gets hit by a metric shitton of pitches and has heretofore never done anything about it, thought there was something to this particular pitch that isolated it from all the others. I don't know what that might be (Greinke seems such an odd duck that it's hard to picture him having a feud with anyone), but I don't think expressing his view that Greinke and he have a history does anything, for better or worse, to his non-existent defense or how MLB responds.

Edit: Coke to NN.
   91. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4411721)
I can tell you I’ve never responded in that fashion, so you guys can do your homework on that. For me, the situation is done. That’s it.”


Hey psycho, when Youkilis (who also attracts balls like a he has a black hole between his ears) charged the mound he clearly just wanted to tussle, and then be separated. Not blow up the guy 35 pounds lighter than him.
   92. Shibal Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4411722)
MLB needs to stop allowing players to leave the bench...that will take care of a lot of these problems.

   93. SoSH U at work Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:37 AM (#4411728)
MLB needs to stop allowing players to leave the bench...that will take care of a lot of these problems.


I don't think MLB wants 9 on 1 fights, and no team would ever allow their one guy to get pummeled (unless it was A.J.).

Catchers will always back up their pitchers, which already leads to a 2 on 1 situation. As long as the number of players on the field is always unequal, you can't employ the same rules as other sports.
   94. Dale Sams Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4411729)
Hitters charging the mound should be suspended 50 games.


Disagree. The above example I gave with Youkilis doesn't warrant the equivalent of a first-time steroid suspension. Nor would the incident with Gregg and Ortiz a while back. Just make it case by case. I'd certainly give Quentin at least 15 games here.

Mandatory sentences are always bad ideas.
   95. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4411731)
MLB needs to stop allowing players to leave the bench...that will take care of a lot of these problems.


Agreed. The NBA and NHL have managed to stomp out the bench clearing brawl thing. MLB should simply make leaving the bench an automatic suspension and end this silliness. 99 times out of 100 these brawls are a bunch of people posing and staring at each other then once in a great while someone actually gets hurt. Neither is worth a damn.
   96. Ron J2 Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4411732)
#67 Ron Hunt was the gold standard for me.
   97. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4411733)
Yeah, in the NBA there are equal numbers of players on the court. Not so with MLB.

I think heavy suspensions for the jackasses who bean hitters, and those who charge the mound, should do the trick.

With a beanball, both hitter and catcher should be suspended. As to the issue of intent, if we can put people in prison for crimes for which intent is an element, we can certainly take a reasoned guess at intent as it relates to this situation.
   98. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4411735)

I don't think MLB wants 9 on 1 fights, and no team would ever allow their one guy to get pummeled (unless it was A.J.).

Catchers will always back up their pitchers, which already leads to a 2 on 1 situation. As long as the number of players on the field is always unequal, you can't employ the same rules as other sports.


I think you can deal with that by imposing a "third man in" type rule. If the hitter charges the mound whoever engages him first; pitcher or catcher is the legitimate foe, if the other player or players get involved they are subject to the same penalties that players leaving the dugout would be. Again I'll point to the NHL as an example which manages to have fighting regularly (which I think is asinine but that's another OT thread) without having two on ones and such.

I'll agree, contrary to what I said in #95, that mandatory penalties probably shouldn't exist but a practical application of rules saying no leaving the dugout and no 2 on 1 type situations should be fairly easy to enforce.
   99. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4411736)
Hey psycho, when Youkilis (who also attracts balls like a he has a black hole between his ears) charged the mound he clearly just wanted to tussle, and then be separated. Not blow up the guy 35 pounds lighter than him.

Exactly. This wasn't the standard shoving match where the guys are expecting to get separated. Quentin tried to level him like a safety eyeing a receiver in the open field.
   100. Nasty Nate Posted: April 12, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4411737)
With a beanball, both hitter and catcher should be suspended.


Why not also the thirdbasemen, the peanut vendor, that city's NFL team's cornerback, and a few other people who did nothing wrong?
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