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Agreed.
I'm withholding judgment until I find out (1) what the White Sox give up in this deal and (2) what they plan on doing with Griffey. Playing him every day in CF would not be a good thing.
Good job, Kenny.
What, no comment implying that Kenny Williams is somehow full of himself or being "uppity," Darren? You're off your game!
As a standalone, I don't like the Griffey deal but I'll reserve judgment until it's all said and done. That in mind, I always find the "AL Central thanks you again Kenny!" posts pretty amusing...I imagine you can find several similar posts in just about every trade the Sox have made in the last several years (including Quentin, Swisher, Floyd, etc).
My point is that Williams has earned a little goodwill in my book.
Darrin Jackson was still a good defensive CF the last time Griffey was a good defender.
That was Steve Stone speculating. There's no substance to that.
EDIT: And Swisher for Street would be a terrible deal from the White Sox' perspective.
This would be hilarious and awesome!
Yes, please.
The best players on the White Sox play LF and RF, and neither can cover CF, and it'd be pretty insane to shove one of them to 1B for the stretch run. (Huge ups to the player who does it, if he can pull it off, but that's crazy risky.)
People are talking about chaining trades, but I don't understand that, either - Griffey can fake it at RF/LF, or he can DH, and the White Sox do not improve their team by replacing their sitting RF/LF/DH with Griffey. There's no next step in the chain that makes sense. I guess they could try to trade Thome for value and improve the team with the fruits of that trade, but there's no market out there for DHs, and Thome is pretty average at DH.
If Thome can play 1B, then Griffey could mainly DH and occasionally rest the corner outfielders, and his bat would replace Konerko's. But other than that, this trade doesn't improve the White Sox.
Good...I really like Swisher on this team...
.385 OBP/ .500 SLG is average nowadays? Tough crowd.
Don't forget the original Dye signing.
My point is that Williams has earned a little goodwill in my book.
Agreed. The Sox have done far better than expected 3 of the last 4 years. I don't get his decision, but I don't get a lot of moves Williams has made in recent years, yet they keep winning.
Me, three. He's doing well and some of his moves, questionable to me at the time, worked out fantastically. It's more fun to try to see what he sees at this point than to reflexively bash him.
Affeldt is an improvement over Logan and Weathers is insurance for Linebrink...I'd like either one. It all depends on what they have to give up, which hopefully isn't much. (And of course what they do with Griffey.)
I don't see Thome playing first -- he didn't play there during interleague, and I doubt they risk losing his bat (which has been OPSing 1.000-plus over the last two months) for an experiment like this.
Griffey nixing the deal would pose a question about his legacy, wouldn't it? Especially if there are no better shots at the playoffs down the line.
McCarthy for Danks and Masset was panned, as well.
He had a rough month of May, but has been good otherwise.
Griffey does seem like another vet that might have something left in the tank for Ozzie and Kenny to wring out of him, but that something doesn't include hitting well enough to displace their LF, RF, or DH, or fielding well enough to fill the hole in CF.
I'm not arguing that KW doesn't get the credit he probably deserves/gets unfairly bashed -- but come on... that doesn't mean he should get a pass for acquiring Ken Griffey.
As Matt points out above, Griffey is a step down from what they have at the only positions Griffey can legitimately play (can we all agree if KW thinks Griffey can play CF, however underrated he may be as a GM -- that's a really, really dumb idea). There is no chain of moves that makes acquiring Griffey a good idea unless there's some sort of crazy Jim Thome for David Price deal lurking.
The moves that KW didn't get proper credit for generally involved acquiring players that were coming off injuries and were therefore big question marks (Quentin), were salvage projects (Jenks), or were otherwise gambles that paid off handsomely. That doesn't mean KW was throwing darts at a board - he certainly did his homework and it paid off.
This isn't throwing darts at board. Ken Griffey is a 38 yo, oft-injured corner OF/DH who hasn't slugged .500 in 4 years. This is a deal without any upside. It's reeks of a 'PR' deal -- look, look -- we've acquired first ballot HOFer Ken Griffey!
Recently being since June -- he's put up two consecutive +1.000 OPS months.
And about the trade... Kenny has to know that putting Griffey in CF would be as bad or worse than putting Dye in Thome in CF, right? Who knows... maybe the Sox just acquired a very expensive bench player. Since that's not likely, I think Dye, Thome or Griffey himself will see time at first base if this goes through. Konerko isn't much defensively himself and -- just from my eyes -- it looks like Konerko has brought his offensive slump to the field (not that he was ever great there in the first place).
Ewww.
I don't mind people blasting the trade as much as the sentiment up thread that it'll cause Detroit to win the division and the Sox to fall to third.
Same here. I was against the Konerko extension, the Dye extension, and the Pierzynski extension.
I liked the Buehrle extension.
I think I've been very fair to KW, and I think he's done a good job, and I do not understand this acquisition at all. (Any anti White Sox snark on my part was surely directed at Buck, who's had a bee in his bonnet about the Red Sox for five years.)
Nope. Just this one.
Quentin was an obvious win. Swisher, not so sure that's something to be bragging about. He's been okay.
Fair enough.
I don't buy into the gnashing of teeth over the I-Rod trade - Dave Dom hasn't exactly had a good 6 months, and with the Twins insisting that Livan Hernandez belongs in the rotation over Francisco Liriano.
In a vacuum - picking up Griffey just isn't very smart.
In the context of the moves the Tigers and Twins have made/haven't made over the last 6-8 months, it's far from the dumbest.
Ryan Sweeney's been unexpectedly good, but I think that'll work out for the Sox in the long run.
If you knock his numbers in moving to the AL, then use the AL replacement level at 2.5 wins below average.
Mully talked about what a great defensive upgrade Griffey was over Swisher in CF...
I'm not sure he even realizes that Griffey hasn't been playing CF in Cincy for awhile.
I remember some Sox fan at the time being ecstatic, as he was sure that Garcia was damaged goods.
Probably Pat Gillick's worst Philly moment, with the Adam Eaton signing and the giveaway of Abreu in the competition but falling short.
KW is at his best when he's working at the edges, picking up good players who have been ignored by other teams for one reason or another. I think he's at his worst when he's picking up "name" players (think David Wells, Roberto Alomar, Bartolo Colon) -- he seemed more interested in that type of thing earlier in his career as GM. Thome has worked out surprisingly well, although CF has been a problem since Rowand left.
The problem with the White Sox is that they don't have any clear areas of upgrade. That doesn't mean they are a great team -- they're good, occasionally very good -- just that they appear to be stuck with what they've got. The best ways to upgrade would be for Swisher and Konerko to start hitting, and for the power triumverate (Contreras, Crede, Linebrink) to return from the DL.
Hey, pretty much every stathead agreed that the Tigers or Indians would win the division, and that the Twins and White Sox would suck. Those folks have already looked ridiculous for much of the year -- why wouldn't they double down now?
That was the same as the Gavin Floyd deal, already mentioned.
Or maybe Griffey is headed to Boston. Nah, I still like Griffey, even if he's a shell of his former self. I wouldn't wish that punishment on him.
I think he meant the original deal (Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and a prospect to Seattle for Garcia). People thought that Williams was insane.
That was the same as the Gavin Floyd deal, already mentioned.
I think PH was referring to the first Garcia deal, in which Kenny was blasted to high heaven for giving up the best prospect ever, Jeremy Reed, as well as Miguel Olivo.
Correct. MGL called it something like a stupid move by a stupid organization that has no idea how numbers work.
Dye has a no-trade for this year, too. Why would he waive his?
KW is smarter than me, but I don't understand this yet.
Jason Kubel (both offensively and defensively). The Twins wouldn't play Jason Kubel in CF the rest of the season.
MGL calling you stupid is pretty much the "Will Carroll confirms that..." of front office analysis.
I'd be shocked if anyone thought giving up prospects for Quentin and Swisher caused anyone to say the Sox were giving away the division title.
The White Sox will send second baseman Danny Richar and reliever Nick Masset to the Reds.
What about moving Dye to 1B? That move has been talked about as Dye continues to age. IMO this move is insurance against the (this year at least) carcass of Paul Konerko. A player like Griffey, who has usefullness against the majority of pitchers in the league, is an upgrade on this year's PK.
DOES.
NOT.
COMPUTE.
AHHHHH! I HAVE A HEADACHE!
HOORAY!
So, the Reds are dumping salary? Richar is going to be blocked, with Brandon Phillips and Jeff Keppinger.
I'm reading on various message boards that Cincy is picking up the tab on the rest of Griffey's contract.
Richar has a bit of potential, but he's not a star.
Then what's the point from the Reds' perspective?
Pretty much every human being agreed on that. No need to turn it into a stathead thing. It's been a very surprising year in the AL Central.
Who am I kidding?
Yeah. Go back and read the MSM predictions. It wasn't just that the Indians or Tigers would win, but it was what level of greatness each team might achieve. I was half right about the Sox! I didn't think they'd be in first, but I didn't think they were as bad as being advertised. That's me all right, Half-Right Shooty! It's a nickname that doesn't play as well with the ladies as I'd like.
Then what's the point from the Reds' perspective?
I'm not sure, but here's the link:
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10914920
" The Cincinnati Reds will get infielder Danny Richar and right-handed pitcher Nick Masset in the deal, according to sources. Cincinnati will also pay the remaining $4 million on Griffey's contract."
I guess they avoid having to pay the buyout for next year.
tell me about it...
Well, if Griffey's range, arm, and general defensive abilities travel through a time warp on his trip from Cincinnati to Chicago -- I think this trade will work out just fine for the White Sox.
Who am I kidding?
No need to respond. This is the White Sox responding to the Twins. A month ago, the Twins decided to keep Liriano in the minors and keep starting Livan Hernandez. The White Sox were determined to downgrade as well.
Swisher link: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/sfgate_as_trade_swisher/
Quentin link: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/news_dbacks_to_trade_quentin_to_white_sox/
Wouldn't Thome at first make more sense than Junior at first?
The Quentin thread also -- it seems to mainly be fans of other teams complaining "THIS is all it took to get Quentin?" There were a few naysayers (levski, shoewizard), but at least from the threads posted -- I'm afraid I've gotta throw the strawman flag for anyone claiming that KW/the Sox got ripped for either the Swisher or Quentin trade.
No one expected Quentin to go this gonzo - but let's be realistic... NO ONE IN THE WORLD could have reasonably expected Carlos Quentin to turn into in-his-prime Manny Rameriz.
Good point, but it has been a decade or more since Griffey was in a pennant race, he's got nothing to lose (well, except his health) and everyring (mispelling caused pun intended) to gain. He might bust out into a last hurrah.
No. Thome got hurt the last time he played first and Ozzie isn't risking it. He wouldn't let Thome play first in interleague, either.
It would seem so -- at least he has experience there, though I think the White Sox dislike playing Thome at first because of the injury possibility. Dye doesn't really have experience at first; otherwise, that would work if Konerko is dealt or DL'ed.
Barring another trade, I think a convoluted job-sharing arrangement would probably be best, just to keep everyone happy and fresh. You've got five guys (Thome, Konerko, Griffey, Swisher, Dye) for four positions. Dye needs to start pretty much every day, but maybe move him to DH when a lefty is pitching, in place of Thome, and let Griffey play RF. Or let Griffey DH. (Would that arrangement tick off Thome because it prevents his option from vesting? He needs 1100 plate appearances for '07 to '08 to guarantee the option, and is currently at 931. He averages 4 per game, and the Sox have 56 games left.)
From what I'm hearing on this board, Griffey in CF would not be pretty. Can he play there at all? (Like maybe 2 of every 5 games?)
Another great one, "Quentin has no plate discipline and pitchers will just throw it further and further outside and it's comical how he will get himself out." Meanwhile Quentin has an IsoD of over .100 this year.
Yeah, but you could just put a big bucket out there, too. Has about the same range.
Exactly. The White Sox are making a furious charge at 86 wins (probably their upside if their old guys all rally) with no real chance at the playoffs. They will be putrid in 2 years, or sooner, and have zero young prospects.
That has to be Jerry Royster Experience.
Yep. If I went back and read all my posts over the last couple of years, I know I would be humbled both by my limited baseball knowledge and how spectacularly unfunny I can be. So...I think I'll avoid that project for a while.
That was not me, although my immediate reaction was to hate that trade. I've since come around.
EDIT: My embarrassing line from that thread - "Well, the White Sox are probably better than the Twins right now (and they definitely will be better if Santana gets dealt). But, of course, that doesn't really matter, does it?"
Wrong on so many levels.
Heh, I guess I'll have to respond with classic BTF defensiveness and admit you're right -- adding that I just got lazy trying to come up with a good comp for my point.
Eerily enough, though -- Quentin, posting a 143 OPS+ in his age 25 season -- would like right at home in Manny's "pre-prime" age 23/24/25/26 seasons, so maybe I should have just dropped the "prime".
Yea, Manny's prime was pretty damn great. As great as Quentin has been, he hasn't been that good.
Isn't the more appropriate comp David Ortiz's first year with Boston?
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