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Now, with rest, Ken can play center for a GAME. And then falls apart. As in, FALLS APART.
In right field he can play every day and the regression isn't as noticeable. And his arm is still solid. And Ken is a SMART guy. He positions himself well.
If teams would just tell Ken to shut up and sit him down for 35 games a year he would be Kirk Gibson with an arm. .285/.360/.500 type numbers. 25 homers. That type of output.
But NOOOOO, if he's walking he's out there. And only gets rest under his protest or when his body finally breaks down again.
It's dumb.
No, not at all. Again, he has a no-trade clause this season.
Yea...because they are completely comparable position. 1B is arguably the easiest position in MLB to play and SS is beyond argument the hardest. Way to compare apples to apples there Bud.
Cole Hamels would get it done. Or Jimmy Rollins. But that'd be about it.
I think a big part of it is that Griffey still looks like he can play CF -- he's still looks like a real smooth OFer, even with the knees such as they are, he still seems to have an almost regal look to the way he plays.
It's on those plays where you don't pay attention to his positioning - on those balls that, off the bat, you'd think are fairly routine, even if catches to be made on the move - his limitations really become apparent. He's not out of position. He still reads the ball well off the bat. He's just a ton slower than he used to be and far too slow to play a reasonable CF.
You know what the busiest job in the world would be? I think it would be the Sarcasm Detector Repair Man at BBTF.
Cole Hamels would get it done. Or Jimmy Rollins. But that'd be about it.
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of some prospect package. But I don't want Gillick trading with Williams either so I'll just dash my hopes right now.
Really? I should start paying closer attention.
The Phillies don't have any prospects that good.
I'm not a big fan of Richar - I don't think the bat will hold up in the majors. I'm probably higher on Masset than most, but he's back-end filler, most likely.
-- MWE
What a #### trade that was for the White Sox. What the hell?
I don't think Williams "does" prospect packages, at least not at this point. He's trying to win this year, and then he'll worry about next year. The good thing, I guess, is that even though he's a "win now" kind of GM, he has acquired some good young players (the two cornerstones of Chicago's future, Quentin and Danks). But he's fairly uninterested in prospects, unless he can get a #1 prospect kind of guy to fit a position. Who's the #1 2B prospect in the game? If he's near AAA, Williams would probably be interested in him.
Mike can correct me, but aren't 2B prospects guys that can't handle SS in the minors? And, honestly, I would think Gordon Beckham would probably start ranking up there once he's signed.
The Phillies arguably had the #1 2B prospect in Cardenas, but they traded him for Blanton.
I like the all-caps bit, it makes him stand out in a crowd.
As far as guys who ARE 2bs now and would/could be MLB 2b-men I'd say Cardenas is one. If Jemile Weeks has signed he is definitely one of the best 2b prospects in my book. I think he gets pretty underrated around here, I don't get the "low upside" rap on him. I think he is an intriguing player because I think he is a strong bet to reach a "low upside" level of MLB usefulness but has such a strong, broad base of average-to-plus tools and skills that he could be quite a player.
I could see him being somewhat similar to Brandon Phillips as an electric, power/speed 2b-man.. although I don't know if he is a 30-30 man.
The Marlins Chris Coglan (once again MWE can probably give you more info on him than I can) is a nice looking 2b prospect. He was a college 3b whose has moved over and looks like he can stick. Hes not going to be a game changing hitter but he is a very solid one. Line drive stroke, good contact, gap power. Maybe a 2b-version of Bill Mueller?
The Twins have an Aussie 2b-man named Luke Hughes who has had an up and down career but is busting out this year. His rookie-ball and low-A OPSs are the 700s, his high-A (FSL) OPS was in the 500s but he got jumped to AA last year and put up an 800 OPS and, repeating the league, this year he is at 937 at age 23 with good HR numbers.
I really know nothing about him beyond that. His Ks are kinda high and the track record ain't inspiring, but hes got power and maybe he can stick at 2b (I have no idea)
He certainly doesn't need to move 2b immediately. This isn't some poser like Reese Havens : )
I wish Beckham would play SS for the White Sox. I just think they'll put Alexei Ramirez there instead.
I am interested to see Ramirez at SS. I haven't seen him play enough at 2b to know if him at SS is a good idea but what little I have seen looks pretty nice.
Swisher's been perfectly adequate in center this year. It's been a pleasant surprise.
And Griffey's an ironman...
Griffey has no business being out there against lefties. The more I think about it, the more it puzzles me that KW would want him unless he plans to play him or Dye at first.
Swisher's been perfectly adequate in center this year. It's been a pleasant surprise.
I'd rather he played first and they had a more adequate CF. Actually, I think Anderson/Swisher is better than Konerko/Swisher, but an upgrade on Anderson would make me happier. The monkey wrench, as always, is the need to be graceful towards Konerko (recall that he's the captain of the team).
And Griffey's an ironman...
Thome's better.
If that's the case then the White Sox are misleading him and he'll not be a happy customer the rest of the year. (Not that there would be much he could do about after he approves the trade).
I cannot imagine Griffey (who reluctantly moved from center - he thinks he can still play there) agreeing to a trade that would make him a bench player.
Still the Sox gave up nothing as Richar is blocked by Ramirez and Masset blows. Bleh.
God, Edmundo, you're so dumb. There's no such thing as a sarcasm detector repair man!
I'm in agreement with the rest of this thread in that I don't see a logical need for Griffey on this club, other than KW fulfilling his need to acquire Griffey.
The upside is that Masset and Richar is no big loss. Masset was essentially mop-up only, and I assume Wassermann or Adam Russell can step into that role. Richar was never going to have a major league bat.
Or, knowing Griffy, you could have stopped after the first three words.
I read one rumor that the White Sox wanted a reliever in the deal. Obviosuly that didn't happen which makes it sound like the Reds are reluctant to give one up, otherwise I don't see why the Yankees wouldn't want a left-handed DH. Makes me think the Reds were trying to deal Junior to a contender rather than people calling about his availability - this helps them save face by not having to deal with the option/buyout issue.
It might help the Sox with Thome's 2009 option, it'll be automatic with 184 more plate appearances. Maybe Junior is around just long enough to make Thome's plate appearances option too tough to make and Junior gets moved again in a couple weeks (since the 10-5 rights would be gone). Maybe Houston would take him for Geoff Blum.
Castellini said he went to Houston because he was already in Colorado and it was close - I think he'd just had enough of the ridiculous media coverage of Junior given the fact that the Reds flushed their season down the tubes in the past week. Time to move on, FINALLY.
I have no ill will toward Griffey; I don't blame HIM for getting hurt all the time. I'm just glad that I can move on at this point, because the last 9 years have sucked hard for Reds fans.
Catcher? Though your argument regarding 1B probably still stands.
Trade for Griffey just to screw Thome? I would be surprised if the ChiSox front office were that class-less. Plus, Thome may be kind of pricey but he's likely to be a good or better DH in 2009, even with some decline related to age.
However, I still have no idea why Chicago traded for Griffey. I also can't believe Junior has spent 9 1/2 seasons in Cincy; time flies.
Eight-and-a-half, actually, but I agree with the sentiment.
How fast can they build a statue for him?
And the "retrospective" on this trade gives way too much credit to Williams. He gave up good prospects to get 3 months of Freddy Garcia.
That's it. That's all the White Sox got. And although Garcia pitched well in that half-season, the Sox missed the playoffs.
They then extended Garcia -- something which they could have done after he hit the FA market.
Obviously they got first crack at that extension and maybe were able to get him a little more cheaply (though that was market rate or higher at the time).
You want to give Williams credit for being smart enough to extend Garcia, be my guest -- that move worked out well. You want to point out that he (and/or his staff) might be better talent evaluators than those who proclaimed Reed's future stardom, be my guest. But giving up two good prospects, even if neither ended up amounting to anything (though Olivo has been serviceable at times), for 3 months of Garcia is not a feather in his cap even in 20/20 hindsight.
You're wrong about some things (it's irrelevant to Garcia's value in '04 that the Sox missed the playoffs in '04, and irrelevant that Olivo, Reed, and Morse were "good prospects"). But you're correct that we need to be more careful about what is acquired and given up in trade. And I would say that the Garcia trade was somewhat of a loser for the White Sox. In terms of win shares:
Garcia (CWS in '04): 7
Reed: 3 (SEA in '04), 10 (in '05), 1 (in '08) = 14
Olivo: 3 (SEA in '04), 7 (in '05), 14 (in '06), 8 (in '07), 6 (in '08) = 38
Morse: 5 (in '05), 2 (in '06), 2 (in '07) = 9
Even if we discount the value of win shares after '04 for the prospects, that's giving away quite a bit for very little.
Similarly, we need to view the Hanley Ramirez trade as what it was: 6 years of Ramirez, 6 years of Sanchez, and 6 years of those other two dudes for one year of Beckett and two years of Lowell. As with Garcia, the big advantage was not the acquisition of Beckett but the re-signing of him. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?
I don't think I agree with that line of thought. Sure, we can analyze the "process" but there is a limit to that given that for the most part we are just random people on the internet with no insider access.
Sure BP thought Reed was somewhere in between Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, but maybe he wasn't viewed that way within the game, or maybe the White Sox knew something, as you acknowledge.
Saying that's it not a feather in his cap that the prospects didn't pan out strikes me as kind of odd. I won't speak for anyone else, but I thought it was a terrible trade at the time. I don't think its too glowing to say Williams knew different, more power to him and all that. I think its a little harsh to say he shouldn't get credit for the deal even though he basically gave up nothing.
Some were quick *cough* BP *cough* to make fun at Kenny William's expense last year given their projections. But come on. Picked up Garcia for nothing, extended Garcia and rode him to a World Series, and dumped him as damaged goods. For yet another guy having a "fluke" year. To only give him credit for being smart enough to extend Garcia? I don't think that's fair. Just my opinion.
Kenny Williams knows what's he doing. Even if he's prone to the blue moon white whale as noted earlier in the thread, Alomar, Griffey, etc.
First thing that popped in my head when Gammons started talking about Griffey playing centerfield was Mays for the Mets. I hope that's not so.
Other than that, I see the insight in your perspective, but I still think it misses the point--it was unlikely that Garcia would end up in Chicago on the free agent market. Williams targeted his guy and it looked like a good addition to the team.
Winning trades is just a selective endpoint piece of building a good roster.
Those who only want to count three months of Garcia and one year of Beckett are completely wrong. They were able to sign the player only because they traded for him. In the same vein the Mets did not trade for only one year of Santana.
Santana was signed as a condition of the trade. Beckett signed a long term deal during a poor season after a trade. I don't know how much a benefit it is to have a player before FA.
They might screw this up, but him saying that doesn't tell me much of anything.
That's nuts. The only reason you trade for 3 months of Garcia is to improve your chances at the playoffs. The Sox missed the playoffs which means that Garcia was of no value to them. It's not Garcia's fault (he pitched perfectly fine) but it means the White Sox did not get out of that trade what they wanted.
and irrelevant that Olivo, Reed, and Morse were "good prospects"
That's not irrelevant either. If you give up something that everyone knows is crap to improve your shot at the playoffs, that's a no-lose situation. If you give up items which are valued in the marketplace and get little in return, that's bad.
They were able to sign the player only because they traded for him. In the same vein the Mets did not trade for only one year of Santana.
Prove it. Hell, make a cogent argument.
They may have gained some advantage in being able to talk to them first. In the case of Seattle, the Sox were expressly NOT given the right to talk to Garcia before the trade. In a "rational" world, Garcia signs that offseason with whatever team makes him the best offer; in that rational world, Garcia does not extend with the White Sox unless he thinks that's as good or better a deal that he'll get in the offseason. As I said, that was a market rate or better deal at that time. If there are "irrational" reasons Garcia preferred the Sox (I think there was some supposed reason at the time), that reason would exist during the offseason.
It's obviously _possible_ that if Garcia went elsewhere he'd have resigned there instead of going FA. So fine, add a little value to the deal -- the value being that the Sox got to extend Garcia rather than spend that money on a similar FA starter or other player.
Yes, and the only reason to sign players at all is to win pennants. That's why Paul O'Neil is the world's greatest hero and Ernie Banks had a worthless career.
So you mean, like this trade that people are making fun of where they not only gave up crap, but got $4 mil to cover the only expenses in the deal?
To your actual point, sure, but unless you actually go talk to some GMs who will admit to you that they would have paid a lot more for those prospects, then you don't really know. The premise relies that stathead dudes like us on the internet know more about future player value than the combined grouping of GMs.
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