Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, June 23, 2014

Hall of Famer Fergie Jenkins looks for the next Great White hope

Well, it ain’t James J Beattie and it sure as hell ain’t Jim Beattie.

The latest Great White North snub is Larry Walker. The seven-time Gold Glove winner from B.C. slipped down and received 10.2 percent of the HOF votes in his fourth year on the ballot. He earned 21.6 percent of the votes in 2013. Players need 75 percent to get in.

It looks like Walker’s best chance to get a bronze plaque will be by the Veteran’s Committee, a group that selects players ineligible to be picked by the Baseball Writers Association of America.

The biggest knock on Walker has always been his numbers being inflated because of batting nine seasons in the light mile-high air of Colorado’s Coors Field.

Walker had a .381 batting average at Coors Field and hit .282 everywhere else. While he was with the Montreal Expos he had an OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging average) of .890 that went up more than 300 points with the Rockies.

“I don’t care if (the air) is light or not, if you’re going to put that uniform on you got to play and put numbers up and I think he did that,” Jenkins said. “Unfortunately he fell into a bracket where he started losing numbers and then people started bypassing.”

We might be waiting awhile for a Canadian to come around Cooperstown for enshrinement.

Joey Votto could be Canada’s best hope, Jenkins said. The Etobicoke-born National League MVP is currently in his eighth season with the Cincinnati Reds.

Even with four all-star nods, a Gold Glove, an NL Hank Aaron Award and most likely more accolades to come, Votto is hardly a shoo-in for the HOF.

“Votto could be next, if Joey can stay healthy,” Jenkins said.

Repoz Posted: June 23, 2014 at 09:48 AM | 18 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Omineca Greg Posted: June 23, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4733420)
No, I think "Once Bitten, Twice Shy" was pretty much it.
   2. Esoteric Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4733457)
In another entry for the English Pronunciation Is Stupid notebook, I just want to point out that "Etobicoke" is actually pronounced "ee-toh-bee-COH." Yes, the 'k' is silent. In violation of every other rule of English pronunciation one would ever encounter! Silent 's'? Sure, I get that, I live in Illinois. Silent 'r'? Yeah, I dig. Silent '-ent'? Well, that's Francophone words for ya. But I've never seen a silent 'k' anywhere else, and for no perceptible reason.

Ah, English: such simple grammar, such incomprehensible orthography.
   3. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:26 AM (#4733465)
But I've never seen a silent 'k' anywhere else, and for no perceptible reason.


You know what? I think you're mistaken.

   4. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4733470)
Don't knock the concept of a silent "k," man. Next, you'll be getting your knickers in a twist over knuckleballs & knotholes, you knavish knob.

You're in the wrong here. Take a knee, else it's knives out.
   5. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 23, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4733477)
All kidding aside, yeah -- at or near the end of a word, that's pretty weird.
   6. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 23, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4733529)
When I saw the headline I was going to point out that the best player and pitcher in baseball (Trout and Kershaw) were both white but now I see he's referring to Canadians in particular. So yeah, poor choice on title. Instead of "great white hope," something like "next Canadian great" be be a better description.
   7. Obo Posted: June 23, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4733643)
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be "Great White North Hope" but they blew it on the headline.
   8. Batman Posted: June 23, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4733662)
I'm not sure Fergie Jenkins would be the person looking for the next great white guy.
   9. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 23, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4733668)
I'm not sure Fergie Jenkins would be the person looking for the next great white guy.


White powder, maybe.
   10. Dillon Gee Escape Plan Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4733757)
I'm not sure Fergie Jenkins would be the person looking for the next great white guy.


What a hoser.
   11. bjhanke Posted: June 23, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4733762)
I read the article, and the author used "Great White North" in the text. I wonder if it's possible that the guy is young enough that he's never encountered the term "Great White Hope" and just has no idea of what it meant and how racist it was. - Brock Hanke
   12. Ron J2 Posted: June 23, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4733870)
#11 Take off (to the Great White North)

Not the only time they used that theme. There's also Great White North
   13. Walt Davis Posted: June 23, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4733996)
I'm guessing the headline writer thought it a witty pun.

On silent k's and such ... place names don't count and quite possibly the locals just got lazy about pronouncing the k ... and I'll go out on a limb and guess that "Etobicoke" is not English in origin anyway.

Now the Anglicization of fer'n words is a whole other topic.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: June 23, 2014 at 06:13 PM (#4734006)
And I don't think Coors is the main reason Walker is not making progress. Reason #1 is the short career (in PA terms) due to frequent injury. Reason #2 is he's trapped in the same way McGriff is -- big numbers from that era don't count cuz they were obviously due to roids and really, really good numbers from that era aren't impressive because of roids. Coors obviously doesn't help here but, as Edgar kinda shows, he coulda put up these kind of raw numbers in Seattle and be a long way from making it. Reason #3, which might knock him off the ballot, is the backlog.

I'm of course a strong supporter of Walker but in a world where Bagwell has a hard time making it, a guy like Walker doesn't stand a chance.

And unless the BBWAA has come to its senses by then, it's hard to see how Votto will get in without a second MVP. (The ballot will have cleared which will help a lot and Votto might be the most impressive of a lot that wouldn't look very impressive on this year's ballot.) Besides, the guy's already hit three pop-ups this season -- he's in decline.
   15. Ginger Nut Posted: June 24, 2014 at 06:52 AM (#4734175)
On silent k's and such ... place names don't count and quite possibly the locals just got lazy about pronouncing the k ... and I'll go out on a limb and guess that "Etobicoke" is not English in origin anyway.


As an American living in Canada, I find the Canadian spelling and pronunciation of English language words to be quite unpredictable. Some, like "defence" are always spelled and pronounced in a somewhat British way. The accent on Canadian "defence" falls on the second syllable. If you said "DEE-fense" up here you would sound like a 'murrican rube. They also pronounce "research" that way--accent on the second syllable, rather than "REE-search" as I used to pronounce it when I lived in the States. On the other hand, other words are pronounced more in an American way, Spelling is the same--some words are always spelled in the British way, others in the American way. I've encountered some examples of usage that are clearly derived from French; for example, the habit of saying "perfect!" It's really a hodgepodge and there does not seem to be nearly the kind of standardization of "Canadian English" that Americans worked to create during the early nineteenth century (Noah Webster etc).

As for Etobicoke, it is an attempt to write down an indigenous name in English:

E
tobicoke received its name from an entirely different source - the Mississaugan word "wadoopikaang" (say it a few times.) Surveyor Augustus Jones spelled the word "atobecoake" in an early assessment of the area.


link

   16. Omineca Greg Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:16 AM (#4734210)
I think Canadian pronunciations vary a lot by your location. There are Anglo enclaves in the bigger cities (Kerrisdale in Vancouver comes to mind, I'm sure Toronto has neighbourhoods with the same vibe) and if you grew up there you would sound a lot more English than you might otherwise. Out here in the hinterland, there were really very few white people before 1942, and our pronunciations are more Western American sounding. We say "DEE-fense", especially for sports, I can't remember the last time I've heard someone say "re-SEARCH". I can often pass for an American, for awhile anyway until I let one of my vowels stay too round, and then the jig is up.

Tuktoyaktuk (sounds just like its spelled) is the Anglicized version of something in Inuvialuit, everybody just calls it Tuk though. Sure fits a lot better than Port Brabant...

   17. Walt Davis Posted: June 24, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4734951)
I tend to say "ruh-search" for the noun (though it's really sort of in-between the two) and "ree-search" (quite distinctly) for the verb. Actually I think my verb pronunciation is closer to rees-search.

Etobicoke received its name from an entirely different source - the Mississaugan word "wadoopikaang" (say it a few times.) Surveyor Augustus Jones spelled the word "atobecoake" in an early assessment of the area.

Like I said, Anglicization is just weird. Whether it's the Angicization of "Etobicoke" or the Anglicization that somehow finds something roughly pronounced "Etobicoke" being spelled in English as "wadoopikaang", I don't think the blame should fall on nutty English pronunciations.
   18. bjhanke Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:21 AM (#4735062)
Walt's comment made me think about how I pronounce "research." When it's the noun, I use RE-search. Walt does good RE-search. For the verb in normal circumstances, I use Re-search, which has the emphasis on the first syllable, but doesn't emphasize the "re" part as strongly as when it's the noun. I Re-search a lot on BB-Ref (when my computer lets me). But, when the research has been unusually thorough, I use REE-search as the verb, with the strongest emphasis possible on the REE." When Walt seriously researches a subject, that subject is AWARE that it has been REE-searched.

Anglicization is weird, but it's not quite as weird when you know that the language is a mishmash of several sources, and can develop a feel for which words come from which source (says the guy with the old Master's Degree in English with an academic specialty in English theater through 1700, excluding Shakespeare (S. is his own specialty)). Old English (which is actually Anglo-Saxon) is the basis, and derives from Old German (whether Old High German or Old Low German or some other dialect, I don't know; I'd guess a combination). Old or Middle French comes in with William the Conqueror. In general, if there were two words for the same basic concept, the most socially elevated word will be derived from French, and the word of lesser status will come from Anglo-Saxon. For example, "cow", which means the animal that peasants raise, comes form A-S. "Beef" (often spelled "boeuf" in old texts) refers to the cooked animal meat that nobles eat.

Then there's Latin, which always had some input, but really got going during the NeoClassical period. "Building" is English. "Edifice" is Latin. This helps if you're trying to learn a Romance language, like Spanish. The Spanish word for "building" is "edificio." And then there are the words that come from the hundreds of assorted tribal / national languages of the Native Americans. We sometimes forget just how many tribes and nations there were in what we call "The United States." The Ozark mountains are named after a tribe. Canoe. You can likely think of many others. And the more modern words that came in with the immigrant waves, from Gaelic (Irish), Yiddish, Italian, etc.

The point is that English is a polyglot of many dialects of many languages. The best you can do is try to develop a feel for what came from where. But you can develop a feel, because individual languages have their own overall tone of pronunciation. Anglo-Saxon, for example, along with Old Norse, sounds really hard and guttural to us (as, really, does even modern German). Spanish sounds clipped and fast. French sounds like there are too many vowels. You do what you can to sort that stuff out, and you'll get a lot more English words right. - Brock Hanke (cheap academic)

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Ray (RDP)
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogA’s lose Triple-A Sacramento affiliate
(59 - 3:40am, Sep 17)
Last: Toothless

NewsblogBryan Cranston’s One-Man Baseball Play Inspired By ‘Looney Tunes’ Is Incredible
(21 - 3:00am, Sep 17)
Last: TerpNats

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 9-16-2014
(113 - 2:58am, Sep 17)
Last: TerpNats

Hall of Merit2015 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(27 - 2:53am, Sep 17)
Last: Ardo

NewsblogDave Kreiger: New Baseball Hall of Fame voting rules
(44 - 1:17am, Sep 17)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogPedro pens a letter to Clayton Kershaw
(15 - 12:42am, Sep 17)
Last: Textbook Editor

NewsblogNew approach on offense has Pirates in playoff contention this season
(4 - 12:24am, Sep 17)
Last: Sunday silence

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(249 - 11:58pm, Sep 16)
Last: The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB)

NewsblogSteven Matz, other top minor league Mets to be honored at Citi Field on Monday
(22 - 11:57pm, Sep 16)
Last: billyshears

NewsblogJohnny Cueto shuts down the Cardinals, lowers ERA to 2.15
(26 - 11:51pm, Sep 16)
Last: Srul Itza

NewsblogVox.com: Major League Baseball’s human-trafficking problem
(7 - 10:29pm, Sep 16)
Last: The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott)

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-16-2014
(26 - 10:01pm, Sep 16)
Last: bobm

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - September 2014
(262 - 10:00pm, Sep 16)
Last: rr

NewsblogLonestarball: Jonathan Papelbon suspended for 7 games
(13 - 9:51pm, Sep 16)
Last: Famous Original Joe C

NewsblogToronto Blue Jays’ Marcus Stroman gets no defence from his manager after nearly hitting a batter in the head
(22 - 9:27pm, Sep 16)
Last: Random Transaction Generator

Page rendered in 0.3388 seconds
54 querie(s) executed