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Monday, December 03, 2012

Hank O’Day, Jacob Ruppert, Deacon White Elected to National Baseball Hall of Fame

Wait…I thought Marty Marion was a lock.

Umpire Hank O’Day, Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert and 19th Century catcher/third baseman Deacon White have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by the Pre-Integration Era Committee, it was announced today.

O’Day, Ruppert and White were each named on the necessary 75 percent of all ballots cast by the 16-member Pre-Integration Era Committee, which considered a ballot of six former players, three executives and one umpire whose contributions to the game were most significant from baseball origins through 1946. The Pre-Integration Era Committee held meetings on Sunday in Nashville, Tenn., site of Baseball’s Winter Meetings.

O’Day, Ruppert and White will be joined in the Hall of Fame Class of 2013 by any electees who emerge from the Baseball Writers’ Association of America voting, which will be announced on Wednesday, Jan. 9. All three electees are deceased.

The 16-member Pre-Integration Era Committee was comprised of Hall of Fame members Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Phil Niekro and Don Sutton; major league executives Bill DeWitt, Roland Hemond, Gary Hughes and Bob Watson; and veteran media members and historians Jim Henneman, Steve Hirdt, Peter Morris, Phil Pepe, Tom Simon, Claire Smith, T.R. Sullivan and Mark Whicker. Hall of Fame Chairman of the Board Jane Forbes Clark served as the non-voting chairman of the Pre-Integration Era Committee.

Results of the Pre-Integration Era Ballot (12 votes needed for election): Jacob Ruppert (15 votes, 93.8%); Hank O’Day (15 votes, 93.8%); Deacon White (14 votes, 87.5%); Bill Dahlen (10 votes, 62.5%); Sam Breadon, Wes Ferrell, Marty Marion, Tony Mullane, Alfred Reach and Bucky Walters each received three votes or less.

Repoz Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:40 PM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Chris Fluit Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4315304)
Yay! I did a little happy dance for Ruppert and White.
   2. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4315315)
Deacon White. Nice. Maybe Dahlen gets in next time.
   3. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4315317)
Deacon White's the guy who said (paraphrasing) "We ain't worth the money, but no man is going to sell my carcass unless I get half", right?
   4. AndrewJ Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4315322)
I agree with all three choices.
   5. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4315334)
You know what, at this point in time there shouldn't even be committees voting on this stuff. If they didn't get in when people who might have actually interacted with them at some point or knew baseball when they played then oh well.
   6. Gamingboy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4315336)
Still annoyed that Pete Browning wasn't even on the ballot.
   7. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4315342)
You know what, at this point in time there shouldn't even be committees voting on this stuff. If they didn't get in when people who might have actually interacted with them at some point or knew baseball when they played then oh well.

Baseball geeks like me enjoy these guys are getting recognized and non-baseball geeks don't care and are completely unharmed. In the grand schemes of human existence that seems like a net positive.
   8. phredbird Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4315354)
yawn.

i think i'm transitioning into some weird state where the only thing i care about anymore is who is winning the playoffs and the WS, so offseason is becoming a time for quiet hibernation.

it probably has something to do with the fact that i'll be retiring sometime in the next decade and becoming a 'character' in my neighborhood.
   9. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4315371)
Dahlen's next shot is 2015. Next year's top guys to consider include Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans and Ted Simmons. 2014's list includes Joe Torre, Dick Allen, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce and Bill Freehan.

If you want to lobby the committee they are listed above. I think Grich and Whitaker definitely deserve support. Now that Torre's done managing he should be the clear favorite for 2014.
   10. esseff Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4315397)
Remember when Bid McPhee got in and the Hall said he would be the last of the 19th century players to be admitted?
   11. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4315402)
If they didn't get in when people who might have actually interacted with them at some point or knew baseball when they played then oh well.


The fact that most of the people who played with White or covered him for the papers had been dead for literally decades at the time the Hall was founded makes no difference, I guess. If they'd really cared, they would've risen from their graves to tout his case.
   12. alkeiper Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4315408)
The fact that most of the people who played with White or covered him for the papers had been dead for literally decades at the time the Hall was founded makes no difference, I guess. If they'd really cared, they would've risen from their graves to tout his case.


Incredibly though, Deacon lived long enough to see the Hall of Fame founded.
   13. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4315413)
White played until 1890 and the hall would get setup 46 years later. There were still a bunch of people around that saw Deacon play. Even if you want to argue that these people would be old by that point and only youngsters who were around for his old age seasons were left to evaluate him at that point you still have to contend with the fact that most of early 20th century baseball writing ignored him when talking about the 19th century greats.
   14. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4315414)
Ah yes. I found the Deacon White story/quote I was looking for. White and his friend Jack Rowe were sold to Pittsburgh in 1889, and they refused to report and set off a protracted dispute that was resolved with Pittsburgh paying them a hefty sum of money. White told a reporter (I'm quoting the NHBA, which is quoting some other source I didn't bother looking up):

We appreciate the money, but we ain't worth it. Rowe's arm is gone. I'm over 40 and my fielding ain't so good, though I can still hit some. But I will say this. No man is going to sell my carcass unless I get half.


I'd vote for him based on that quote alone.
   15. BDC Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4315420)
Everyone should read Eric Greenberg's wonderful dialogue between O'Day and John McGraw, after the Merkle game, from The Celebrant. At least some of it should go on his plaque, if just to teach the children who visit Cooperstown some useful vocabulary :)
   16. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4315426)
You know what, at this point in time there shouldn't even be committees voting on this stuff. If they didn't get in when people who might have actually interacted with them at some point or knew baseball when they played then oh well.


Whereas I think it might be better if all inductions were posthumous.
   17. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4315458)
Next year's top guys to consider include Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans and Ted Simmons.


I'd bet at least one of those isn't even on the ballot.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4315466)
Next year's top guys to consider include Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans and Ted Simmons.


If the rules are the same as they were for the 2010 vote, Lou still won't be eligible for consideration.

I'd bet at least one of those isn't even on the ballot.


Simmons was the only one of the three to make the ballot last time. I think a Lederer-style campaign to get Grich on the 2013 ballot would be a worthwhile endeavor for an enterprising stathead.

   19. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4315474)
Do players have to be retired for 20 years, or just off the writers ballot to be eligible?
   20. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4315486)
Sorry for the mistake on Whitaker. Guess we'll have to wait until 2017.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4315487)
Do players have to be retired for 20 years, or just off the writers ballot to be eligible?


Essentially, they must be in their 21st year of retirement (in 2010, players were eligible if their last season was no later than 1989). They have to be no longer eligible to be considered by the writers, regardless whether they're still on the writer's ballot. I'm pretty sure the various Vet's committees have always operated that way, before the various changes.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4315489)
Ruppert was a congressman from New York (a Tammany Hall machine cog).

How many other Baseball HOFers were congressmen? It can't be just Jim Bunning and Happy Chandler, can it?
   23. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4315514)
HoM - not HoF eligible for the 2013 ballot

Bobby Grich
Darrell Evans
Ted Simmons
Keith Hernandez
Willie Randolph
Graig Nettles
Rick Reuschel
Dwight Evans

If you ignore Dave Stieb's 50 inning comeback season he makes the list too.
   24. phredbird Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4315518)
Ruppert was a congressman from New York (a Tammany Hall machine cog).

How many other Baseball HOFers were congressmen? It can't be just Jim Bunning and Happy Chandler, can it?


vinegar bend mizell for the hall of fame!!!1!1!!
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4315527)
HoM - not HoF eligible for the 2013 ballot

Bobby Grich
Darrell Evans
Ted Simmons
Keith Hernandez
Willie Randolph
Graig Nettles
Rick Reuschel
Dwight Evans


From that list, only Nettles, Darrell Evans, Simmons and Grich were eligible last time, and only Simmons made the ballot. The other four are eligible for the first time.

If you ignore Dave Stieb's 50 inning comeback season he makes the list too.


I don't think the Hall will ignore it.
   26. ajnrules Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4315543)
Next year's Veterans choices will most likely be Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, and quite possibly Joe Torre. Unless the Hall announced that these guys won't be eligible until 2017 and I missed the memo.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4315546)
Next year's Veterans choices will most likely be Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, and quite possibly Joe Torre


Yes. I hope all three make it, at least to clear some space for the 2016 ballot (2017 election).
   28. bachslunch Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4315548)
I'm especially glad Deacon White got elected, and I can see a potential case for Jacob Ruppert and Hank O'Day. Congratulations to all three.

Hopefully, Bill Dahlen gets in next time. And hopefully we'll see some or all of Wally Schang, Vern Stephens, Indian Bob Johnson, Sherry Magee, and Tommy Bridges make the ballot and in as well.
   29. esseff Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4315559)
How many other Baseball HOFers were congressmen? It can't be just Jim Bunning and Happy Chandler, can it?


Morgan Bulkeley.
   30. bachslunch Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4315560)
You know what, at this point in time there shouldn't even be committees voting on this stuff. If they didn't get in when people who might have actually interacted with them at some point or knew baseball when they played then oh well.

I thought that was one of the things sabermetrics was for -- to identify players like this and help get them in the HoF based on good stat evaluation.

Baseball geeks like me enjoy these guys are getting recognized and non-baseball geeks don't care and are completely unharmed.

This. Very much this. If we're forced to consider players like Lloyd Waner and Rube Marquard HoF-ers, it makes perfect sense to get things right sometimes and make sure we don't forget someone like Deacon White.

Coke to Shooty.
   31. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4315563)
Buddy Bell, Dave Concepcion and Tommy John would be good picks for 2013 ballot also.
   32. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4315567)
Veterans choices will most likely be Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, and quite possibly Joe Torre.


Good call on the next ballot being manager-heavy. Does LaRussa get blowback for all the players who juiced on his watch?
   33. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4315570)
HoM - not HoF eligible for the 2013 ballot

Bobby Grich
Darrell Evans
Ted Simmons
Keith Hernandez
Willie Randolph
Graig Nettles
Rick Reuschel
Dwight Evans

From that list, only Nettles, Darrell Evans, Simmons and Grich were eligible last time, and only Simmons made the ballot.


No room for them, what with Steve Garvey, Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Concepcion.

   34. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4315578)
Concepcion is on the top of the borderline candidates and gets HoM votes every year.
   35. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4315588)
White played until 1890 and the hall would get setup 46 years later. There were still a bunch of people around that saw Deacon play.


White spent 1890 with Buffalo of the Players' League.

Here's the list of his teammates that year who were still alive in 1936, with year of death:
Lady Baldwin - 1937
Fred Doe - 1938
John Buckley - 1942
Bill Duzen - 1944
Jocko Halligan - 1945
Bert Cunningham - 1952
Connie Mack - 1956
Alex Ferson - 1957
Dummy Hoy - 1961

And here's the list of his teammates that year who were dead, with year of death:
Spider Clark - 1892
Gus Krock - 1905
Sam Wise - 1910
Jack Rowe - 1911
John Rainey - 1912
Jay Faatz - 1923
General Stafford - 1923
John Carney - 1925
Jim Gillespie - 1926
George Haddock - 1926
Larry Twitchell - 1930
John Irwin - 1934
Ed Beecher - 1935
Dan Cotter - 1935
George Keefe - 1935

So that's exactly nine of White's teammates from his final season who were still alive at the time of the first Hall of Fame election, out of a possible 25 (I'm assuming that "Lewis", whoever he was, wouldn't have been of much help to White's candidacy, even if he were still alive at that point.) If you move the line back to the Old Timers Committee election in 1945, the first time 19th century players received much serious consideration and thus White's first realistic shot at being chosen, the number drops to four - of whom one was a deaf-mute.

Even if you want to argue that these people would be old by that point and only youngsters who were around for his old age seasons were left to evaluate him at that point you still have to contend with the fact that most of early 20th century baseball writing ignored him when talking about the 19th century greats.


19th century players, on the other hand, spoke quite highly of him. See, for example, the quotes from Al Spalding, Henry Chadwick, and Pud Galvin at the end of White's SABR bio.

But hey, what the hell did those guys know? They only saw him play, rather than writing about those games second- or third-hand.
   36. SoSH U at work Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4315589)
No room for them, what with Steve Garvey, Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Concepcion.


Garvey, Oliver and Davey all were on the ballot last time (along with TJ, Rusty Staub, Vida Blue and Guidry. Parker and Hernandez seem like the best bets to make it from the newly eligible (possibly replacing Blue and Oliver if the number of players is fixed).
   37. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4315596)
Now, if you want to talk about seeing White at his best, rather than a washed-up 42-year-old White playing out the string... White won the batting title in 1877, when he hit .389 in his age-29 season. It was the second (and last) batting title of his career. Here's the full list of White's teammates from 1877 who were still alive in 1936, with year of death:

George Wright - 1937
Tommy Bond - 1941

Two guys. That's it.
   38. DanG Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4315649)
George Wright - 1937
Tommy Bond - 1941

Two guys. That's it.
This. By the time the HOF was looking to enshrine guys like Deacon, in the mid-40's, pretty much everyone who had seen him play in his prime was dead.

A decade ago, the HOF was in the middle of a years-long scholarly study of Black baseball to identify persons overlooked by the Hall. They need to do the same thing for the stars of the first generation of professional ball players.
   39. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4315656)
Dahlen
Glasscock
Gore
Bennet

For those guys, I go to the mattresses.

Then I'll feel good enough about the 19th Century.

Child's, Sutton, Browning, Stovey, McVey, Jones, Barnes, Pearce, Pike, McCormick, Richardson, Hines: Quality players all, but enough questions for me that I'm not militant.
   40. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4315678)
19th century players, on the other hand, spoke quite highly of him. See, for example, the quotes from Al Spalding, Henry Chadwick, and Pud Galvin at the end of White's SABR bio.

But hey, what the hell did those guys know? They only saw him play, rather than writing about those games second- or third-hand.



Gee, go figure. A bio focused on a single player is able to gather up quotes on said player. You can dig up a bunch of quotes for virtually any player that has played 500 or more games that speak quite highly of them and you can do it especially so for early baseball. The touring circuit was quite active and lucrative back then and telling stories about your playing days and your fellow players was many a storytellers bread and butter.
   41. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4315679)
They need to do the same thing for the stars of the first generation of professional ball players.


Send your suggestions to the screening committee for 2015.
   42. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4315699)
You can dig up a bunch of quotes for virtually any player that has played 500 or more games that speak quite highly of them and you can do it especially so for early baseball.


OK, prove it. Andy Leonard was one of White's teammates on those 1877 Red Stockings, and he played in exactly 501 games. Find me three observers of an equal status to Spalding, Chadwick, and Galvin who said that Leonard was the best outfielder they ever saw - the same comment that was made about White as a catcher.
   43. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4315705)
Just in case Leonard happens to be the exception that proves the rule, let's give you another one, from White's 1890 Bisons team: Larry Twitchell. He played in 639 games, so he should be even easier than Leonard. Right?
   44. Bruce Markusen Posted: December 04, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4316823)
Vlad, well done. Most reasonable people who know 19th century baseball realize that Deacon White is deserving of the Hall of Fame.

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