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From the article posted in reply number 1.
Rasmus (and his loudmouth father) have a long history of complaining about the way he's been treated, both to the press and on the internet, going back to AA in 2007. It become especially vicious in 2008, when he didn't make the team out of ST, and then didn't get a Sept callup (despite having a .742 OPS at AAA). He refused to play winter ball that year, complained publicly (while still in the minor leagues!) about being asked to work on taking the ball the other way, etc.
It's a shame, because he has tremendous potential. But he's got a 10 cent head, and if anyone on the 2010 Cardinals has earned BPs epitaph, it's rasmus. And maybe Carpenter, but Carp has a Cy Young, so he gets some slack.
Have any other 23 year old second year players ever publicly requested a trade? I can't think of any, off hand. This just seems like absurd behavior.
You may have heard of one guy who made such a request.
Gary Sheffield was younger than that when he purposefully played his way out of Milwaukee.
TLR's future in St. Louis is still unclear, though, and hopefully there are enough bad feelings lingering from the Chris Duncan trade to send him packing along with his pack of bearded utility men and mop-up pitchers.
I don’t think you can paint this as TLR vs. Rasmus anymore. Its now TLR/Albert vs. Rasmus, and no way Rasmus survives that.
The funny thing is that because of the hilarious 5 year/125 million contract that doesn't even start until 2012, if you offered me Jim Thome now for Ryan Howard, I'd take it in a second.
Eight, and that's not counting his second and third tenures with the Indians.
Ted Williams was a little bit older when he requested a trade (to Detroit)
Bejeezus. The kid can play. He wants to play. Who doesn't want a guy who wants to be on the field?
Please know that many of us have watched Tony for his entire career. We have seen this schtick before. You making Rasmus out to be a bad kid is, well, kind of silly. He's just not a fit with The Don's plan. No more, no less.
Pujols is a year away from free agency. Until they get his name on an extension, the FO would probably sign you to a major-league contract if it would make Pujols happy.
LaRussa annoys the heck out of me so I would side with Rasmus on this one but Pujol's character and stature is so great that whoever is in the right, Rasmus has to listen to him. When a guy who has a chance to be one of the top 5 greatest players ever says something and you're a second-year player, you just kind of have to take it. Then again, Rasmus has denied asking for a trade so maybe Pujols should have gone to Rasmus first before saying anything publicly.
If Pujols wasn't going through a very rough patch, I'm not sure he would have said anything. His state of mind might have been more diplomatic.
Either way, someone above LaRussa is greasing the skids for Rasmus not to be a Cardinal much longer.
MLB.com:
Now maybe some of you just think he should keep quiet and "suffer". And, from a reputational point of view, maybe he should. But I don't have a problem when a young staffer comes to me and tells me why they're not happy here -- I'd much prefer that -- and even tells me the changes they would need to see to be happy here -- this might be annoying but it saves time.
Like I said, he may have a contentious relationship with LaRussa. That's obviously not preferable but it's not clear to me that he's to blame for that relationship. It's hardly the first time we've heard this about LaRussa -- and I doubt I could spend 30 minutes with the man without finding him insufferable.
This, this, this. This entire situation has grown out of TLR's unwillingness to play and treat like a man one of his best players. This isn't on Rasmus. It's on TLR and his absolutely tone-deaf way of dealing with young players. Rasmus is far more valuable to the future of the organization than TLR is. His act is tired to point of absurdity. Goodbye. And Albert needs to stop casting his lot with a manager who's worn out his welcome to such an extent. If we trade Rasmus for pennies on the dollar in deference to La Russa, then I'll liable to take a hostage or something.
The second part of your statement points to why TLR actually might be more valuable to the future of the Cardinals than Rasmus. Pujols seems to love LaRussa, and that might not be a small thing when it comes to re-signing the big guy. If the Cards fire TLR, doesn't that hurt the chances of Pujols coming back?
Well, as this season has shown, the team cannot live on Pujols alone (or even Pujols/Holliday/Wainwright/Carpenter/Garcia), and it's even harder for them to build a team as long as La Russa keeps alienating good young players. The best thing for everybody is if La Russa just announces his retirement at the end of the year. But in any case, Jose Oquendo is probably next in line to take over when La Russa goes, and I would hope that Albert could live with that, as opposed to bringing in somebody from outside the organization.
The problem is really more about personality than performance - LaRussa loves 'intensity' guys like Pujols, Carpenter, Schumacher, Molina, Miles, and has trouble with more 'laid back' or free spirit personalities like Brendan Ryan, Colby Rasmus, Antony Reyes and probably a few others I'm forgetting.
Some facts: Colby Rasmus has played in 118 of 134 games this year. By my count he started 99 of them. The only time Rasmus has been out of the starting lineup is between August 17 and August The only players with significantly more PA are Albert Pujols and Matt Holliday. As #10 points out, Rasmus has a history of whining, even before he made the majors.
I simply do not see what is Rasmus's problem. Walt says "if you're not going to play me, then trade me." But TLR is playing him. You may say well 99 starts in 134 games means he's been sat a bit. Well, yes and no. No-one starts 162 games, and Rasmus has had no more rest than ordinary. But although he hasn't been on the DL, Rasmus has missed some games due to injury (he had a hamstring problem in July) but apart from that, he has been absolutely a regular, with the exception of a 12-game stretch between August 17th and 29th, when Rasmus did not play. That period is the only time Rasmus has been out of the starting lineup. And this was not TLR benching him, this was a calf injury.
If Rasmus is complaining about his playing time, I can only assume it is because he wanted to be in the lineup during that 12-game stretch, but the medical staff held him out for his own good, and TLR/front office sided with the medics. That puts Rasmus in the wrong, and the front office in the right - of course they should look out for Rasmus's long-term wellbeing, and it's all the more impressive that they do so in the midst of a pennant race.
All that said, the Cardinals need Rasmus and Rasmus needs the Cardinals - he is under their control for a long time to come. I am sure they will patch things up.
If he was hurt this badly for this long, why wouldn't the team put him on the DL? They were in the midst of a pennant race - why play one man short, especially in the NL? I can see how it would be confusing and frustrating for a young player.
That aside, what's problematic to me is that the story isn't coming from Rasmus - in fact, he denies it. If he had gone to the media with his complaints, then yes, Rasmus would be the problem. Instead, the leak came from within the organization, and LaRussa and Pujols are beating up on him through the press. This looks like an orchestrated attempt to make a young player unpopular with the fanbase, so there's no complaints when he's shipped out of town.
I've seen it before, and it's never pretty.
Player/manager conflicts are inevitable, but media circuses surrounding them arent. LaRussa has a history of this kind of drama queen behavior moreso than Rasmus. Why do you think TLR was drawn to that convention of ######## on the Mall last week?
Nobody questions that LaRussa has some skills as a manager. But he brings such a load of ######## with it that only detracts from that skill.
Besides, the monumental Series chokes in both '88 and '90 with the best team in baseball will forever stand in the negative column when rating his greatness as a manager.
Plus, Dusty Baker's kicking his ass this year.
Or, Rasmus really is a whiny ##### from a long line of whiny #######. I suppose it depends on what you want to see.
I don't know Rasmus from Adam, and I don't care. He could be the biggest ass on the planet. That doesn't matter - going to the press (and there's no doubt in my mind that LaRussa orchestrated this - he runs too tight a ship for this to be accidental) makes you the bad guy. Deal with your dirty laundry in-house.
Speaking as an outside observer (i.e., a non-Cardinals fan), this is the most puzzling part of the story. What does the St. Louis organization gain from leaking this story? What do LaRussa and Pujols gain from bashing Rasmus in the media? Granted, people don't always behave in a rational fashion, but this is incompetence on a level that makes even the Mets look good in comparison. When you add in the fact that Rasmus has denied the story, it just makes LaRussa's and Pujols' comments appear all the more foolish.
Oh, and I'd take Bobby Cox over LaRussa any day and twice on Sunday. But that's just my own damn opinion.
DB
Well, as long as you've determined that TLR is responsible based on your extensive record of unmatched guessing from afar, that does settle it.
Perhaps in-house laundry services have proved unsuccessful. Perhaps somebody just let something slip out of frustration. Neither of us actually knows.
In a perfect world, the Cards probably handle whatever situation exists here in a more optimal fashion (just as the Red Sox could have handled Manny better). But the quick rush to thrust all the blame on the team (particularly one involving BTF narrative favorites like the manipulative Red Sox FO or the evil TLR) is no better than the narratives constructed by our mainstream counterparts, though at least they have the possibility of insider knowledge.
Pujols says Rasmus should figure a way to leave if he wants to. But I'd say the same in reverse is true: if the Cards don't want him, they should get rid of him.
I just want to play baseball and have fun.
Ah, perhaps this is the problem. Rasmus wants to have fun playing baseball. That always infuriates TLR.*
* From the background, it does sound to me like Rasmus is a whiny SOB. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the ass-like behavior of TLR and AP is founded in their having simply had enough of Rasmus. But they are the senior guys and it is incumbent on them to make it work. Going to the press first is BS.
Like I said, Rasmus could be the biggest ass in the world for all I know. That's not what concerns me. What concerns me is taking the problem to the press, and then publicly humiliating your own player. What purpose does that serve? There's no excuse for that.
Right, and I agree. Mostly concerning TLR. Managers shouldn't do that unless there really is no other way to get a message to the player. But my guess is Pujols' comments are just an unguarded slip. Eric Karros said something interesting during the Saturday FOX game. He was talking about dealing with the press and he said you might give the cliche, safe answer 99 times out of a 100 but every now and again you'll be tired, or frustrated or simply incautious and give an honest answer and it is that answer that will get most of the play. So, perhaps Pujols simply doesn't like Rasmus. No big deal. One time he's frustrated and gives voice to it and it blows up. That will even happen with managers.
As a reds fan I took offense to that, assuming you're talking about Saturday. Bringing in a lefty to face votto in the situation, obviously trying to help Pujols in the triple crown race. I was so happy that votto got an RBI out of that AB, just to rub it in TLRs face.
And this always presumes that the manager hasn't exhausted the in-house methods (at least, in his mind) before going to the press. And in this case, has TLR said anything other than confirming that Rasmus has requested a trade?
TLR shows his ass at least once a week for all the world to see. You dont have to have insider knowledge or 'construct a narrative' or any such pomo bs to SEE that.
No, he's not. The line starts behind Bobby Cox and Jim Leyland.
I've never been anti-Tony. I've defended him throughout his Cardinal tenure, and I agree that he's one of the best, if not the best, managers of our time. But he looks done, and he bears a good amount of responsibility for the Cardinals swoon this year, and part of that responsibility includes benching Rasmus for the likes of Aaron Miles and Nick Stavinoha. I don't blame Rasmus for wanting to play, and even if he could have handled it better, like many have said here, it's not like he made a public trade request. The intro of the article notes that Ryan Ludwick--a player who was beloved by all in the clubhouse--had a similar issue, so Rasmus isn't alone on this.
That has worried me too, but I think they should probably give Oquendo a shot at the job before deciding he's a failure.
I'd concur with Vlad, and quite frankly, what makes LaRussa so great?
He's won when he had the horses, and hasn't when he didn't. His career W% is OK (.535) but not phenomenal. 2 WS and 5 pennants in 32 years is good, but not remarkable.
What makes LaRussa better than Torre? Or Scioscia for that matter?
Dag's called him the best manager since World War II, so you might want to ask him.
And again, I'll ask. Has LaRussa actually said anything here other than confirming that Rasmus has previously asked to be traded?
Even that's not acceptable. The press doesn't need to be brought into this.
Wait, what!?!?!?
I would think Stengel, Weaver, Cox, Sparky Anderson, and Walter Alston would all be no-brainers as better managers.
But didn't the press bring it to Tony?
It's possible that this was all cleverly orchestrated by TLR? It's also possible it wasn't. That latter scenario seems to be ruled out in a lot of these posts.
The bottom line is we really don't know what went on. The only thing we can be certain of is that Albert Pujols told Rasmus to shut up and play (a statement that may very well be the result of Albert Pujols being sick of Rasmus's ########, and very well be absolutely deserved). The rest is just speculation disquised as knowledge.
From the excerpt at the top of the page:
From this article:
So while we can't (at this point) say with 100% certainty who's telling the truth, we can say that the manager is not on the same page with either the player or the General Manager. In this scenario, that doesn't speak well of the organization, nor does it place LaRussa in anything resembling a positive light.
DB
He's been using John Jay as a way to put down Rasmus. Saying Jay plays with 'passion', etc.
So? The only correct answer to that question is a firm denial. Even if you're lying. Anything else is fuel for the fire, and LaRussa's been around the game long enough to know that.
MILWAUKEE -- A day after a report that outfielder Colby Rasmus had asked the Cardinals for a trade and had a chilly relationship with manager Tony La Russa, the skipper insisted there was no "him or me" ultimatum on the table for 2011 and beyond.
"It's one of the most incorrect evaluations or analysis that I can remember ever in my years," La Russa said. "[For someone to say], 'In 2011, either I'm going to be gone or he's going to be gone' ... our relationship is nowhere near that."
La Russa said the surfacing of the trade request, which he said came two months ago, was a distraction and unfair to both Rasmus and his teammates.
"I don't think it's simmering," La Russa said. "I talk to him every day, almost."
La Russa said he understood why players would take exception to such a trade request, as Albert Pujols did when he spoke about Rasmus' reported request.
"For a young kid to come up and say that, that he wants to be somewhere else, I don't know why," Pujols said Sunday. "I guess he said it two months ago. Two months ago we were in first place. Who doesn't want to be on a team that's in first place, battling for a spot in the playoffs? He's young, but he needs to understand, you need to approach that a different way."
Said La Russa, "Everything I've ever said about him, almost without exception, has been positive. If he did something wrong, it had to do with inexperience and normal development. "
The skipper also noted the microscope on a player like Rasmus.
"He is a highlighted player ever since he signed, so he's going to get more attention," La Russa said. "He's now on the radar screen. What would you rather do, be a guy with no talent who's not on the radar screen or you have the talent with a chance to be an impact guy?"
2010 Wins Above Replacement:
Gardner: 5.0
Rasmus: 2.7
Per Fangraphs.
shades of Greg Jefferies with the Mets- the organization decided that he was future star, that he was going to play whether he was ready or not, the vets decided that they were going to give him a hard time- on top of that Jefferies was a very odd individual, home schooled more or less, raised by the baseball equivalent of those crazed tennis dads- he had effectively NO social skills- none- wanted to be liked didn't know how, he bizarrely assumed the vets hated him because he wasn't hitting .300 (they were going to hate on him whether he hit .225 or .325)- and told the press as much (which got him more abuse)
If Rasmus is caught up in a control fight between TLR and Luhnow he needs out, irrespective of whether he's whiny or self-absorbed, hell if any players are caught up in a battle between TLR and Luhnow someone higher up in the org. needs to step in
No, easier to fire LaRussa.
Yes, please.
I would think that not trading Rasmus in a firesale is worth a lot more the 0.5 or 1 win LaRussa might be worth.
A Kemp for Rasmus trade might be fun
A) Why would they have to trade Rasmus in a firesale? Do you think that they wouldn't be able to get adequate value for him or that multiple teams would back away from Rasmus because he doesn't get along with Tony?
B) I think you're underestimating the worth of the game's best working manager (or 1B).
I have no idea how Rasmus will develop, with TLR or without him. He seems to be playing nicely under the benching of TLR (which is similar to the benching that Dusty gave Murton, I see).
I do know that the Cards' next manager will not be as good as the guy they've got now. As loathsome as I find TLR personally, I'm not sure I'd be so eager to jettison him if he were piloting my team.
The only thing that would give me pause when thinking about firing LaRussa is his apparent closeness with Albert Pujols. If keeping LaRussa allows the Cardinals to keep Pujols, then keeping LaRussa is worthwhile.
Otherwise, I'm not really a fan of LaRussa.
Or you are overestimating TLR
I'm more worried about his apparent conflict with Pujols than with TLR (who imho is wildly overrated and who the club would not miss as nearly as much as they think they would)
I'm sure whoever they get will not be the equal of Tony in his prime. I'm equally confident that whoever they get will be better than Tony is at this point in his career.
It's possible I'm overestimating TLR. I probably put too much stock in that whole consistently winning ballgames habit that Tony's teams have lucked into. We'll see.
Edit: I will grant DCW3's point, that TLR may very well have started slipping and is not likely to be nearly as effective going forward, a fate that befalls a lot of managers at his age. I wouldn't be as certain the next guy will be better than downside TLR, but that depends largely on who the next guy is.
Gardner: 5.0
Rasmus: 2.7
Per Fangraphs.
You don't really believe Gardner is a more valuable commodity, do you? A 26 year old at the top of his range vs a 23 year old with room to grow and a better minor league pedigree.
I don't believe that things have reached this point on either end yet (I think Pujols would be fine with Oquendo managing), but if we were to accept that (1) Pujols won't resign with the team if La Russa isn't managing and (2) La Russa would insist on the team getting rid of Rasmus, then I think that, strictly from the standpoint of on-field success, you fire La Russa. There's a pretty good chance that the next ten years of Colby Rasmus's career will be more valuable than the next ten years of Pujols's. And like I said before, La Russa's presence has been making it harder for the team to build a winning team around Pujols. If La Russa isn't the manager of this team, then the Cardinals are probably leading the Central Division right now--not just because of his poor managing this year, but because it's likely that the Cardinals, rather than the Reds, have Scott Rolen playing third base.
In reality, I would probably rather have the chance to watch Pujols play his whole career than see the Cardinals have a consistently winning team. But one would hope that they don't have to make that choice.
Didn't say anything about his teams lucking into wins
Tony is at .535
Torre is at .538
Tony has never had the misfortune of managing a team as bereft of talent as Torre's Mets...
Piniella (.517)did (TB) and he handled it poorly...
but then again I'm firmly in the "most managers do not make much of a difference camp", the ones I see as having made a significant difference include Weaver, Martin, Cox, Davey Johnson...
As I mentioned above, Dag called him the best Post World War II manager. Since I'm absolutely certain that he has studied this matter a hell of a lot more than any of the rest of us, that's going to carry considerable weight. That it also lines up with my personal evaluation of Tony is all the better.
On what grounds is LaRussa better than Torre? Not to mention Weaver, Stengel, Anderson, Cox, Alston, etc.
Sounds like someone needs to get their nose out of a spreadsheet and watch an actual game sometime!
Let's not neglect Billy Martin.
I believe we are all waiting for Dag to show up and explain things better than we can. You should buy his book. Your question alone shows you'd enjoy it (even if you don't agree with everything).
This is a Jaffe question, but I do think LaRussa's entire record is a little more impressive than Torre's.
I am pretty much with SoSH on TLR. I can't stand LaRussa as a public personality, but he has had a monumental career. If I were a Cardinals' fan, I would want him to stick around.
While Dag can clearly answer this much better than I can, the one thing that really separates TLR from most of these guys (but Cox, though he's to a lesser degree) is enjoying genuine success in more than one stop. TLR won a division title in Chicago, went to three straight WS in Oakland and has been a consistent winner in St. Louis. And, as Vaux notes, Duncan's artistry is part of the TLR package.
FTR, Torre was much better in his pre-Yankee days than he's typically given credit for.
of course.
As a Met fan I despised Doug Flynn, I became a fan of Bill James because he was the first baseball writer whom I read who stated that Doug Flynn was a terrible ballplayer who cost his team wins.
If someone states what we already believe or what we are predisposed to believe- we will likely believe that person and his thought process/methodology
When Chris Jaffe said that TLR was the best(allegedly, I've never read the book so I don't know if he in fact said that) since that was so intuitively WRONG to me, I really had no interest in looking further
really, besides I think Bill James is a great Baseball author, historian and analyst, but he still gets things wrong - like for instance his extended tirades against Rogers Hornsby- to the point he will tweak and obscure his OWN NUMBERS- in the NBHJBA his ranking of 2Bs is a howler in how he explains ranking Morgan and Collins ahead of Hornsby- after a lengthy rundown of all the reasons why he believed Hornsby to be not as good as his numbers (and why Morgan and Collins were better than theirs) he also adds, and besides Collins and Morgan had better numbers- he then cherry picks Collin's best year to compare to a middling one by Hornsby [and btw it was painful to see Bill James do something like that)- but add the end of the 2b section if you looked at his Winshares numbers- Hornsby had more career and peak Winshares than either Collins or Morgan-
He simply didn't like Hornsby and that was that. (To be fair, in the first BJHBA he had speculated that Hornsby had benefited from an extraordinary home park advantage- he did retract that once the #s were available- but the original speculation was still troubling- he never had evidence for it- it was simply something he wanted to be true.
Back to LaRussa, maybe I'm not objective, but I blame him for loogies and roogies, and the scourge of overmanaging, I see a guy who seems to randomly pick fights with talented players for no good reason, yes I see a +.500 winning %
but I also see that he's had Pujols for 10 years, he had Edmonds for Edmond's near inner circle peak... he had Mac fro his Bondsian peak, I'm actually mote impressed by his tenure in Chicago, despite weaker results it just seems like he had far less talent to work with back then
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