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Thursday, January 11, 2018

Heyman | Yankees Having Trouble Finding Taker For Ellsbury

The New York Yankees are said to be willing to pay at least half of Jacoby Ellsbury’s $22 million salary but are still having trouble stirring much trade interest at this point.

That could be because there are so many similar players still available on the free-agent market, though, and it’s possible they could find some takers later.

Jim Furtado Posted: January 11, 2018 at 09:15 AM | 131 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jacoby ellsbury, yankees

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   101. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5606783)
(This is where I point out that Ellsbury has said publicly that he expects to earn the starting CF job for the Yankees next year)

Stranger things have happened. If 2013-2016 Aaron Hicks shows up, it's his job.
   102. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: January 15, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5607056)
That is not right. The Yankees were the only team that ever paid significant amounts of the LT penalty. But that is because the other handful of teams or so, that were 'bumping' up against the tax, were often making a dedicated effort to stay under it.

Which years are we talking about? I don't recall what the lux tax threshold was in different years but the Yanks 25-man payrolls per Cots:

2002 $125
2003 $152
2004 $184
2005 $208

They've basically been there since (low $190 in 2007).

From 2004-9, the most money the Red Sox spent was $143, nowhere near the threshold.

I don't know what to tell you Walt, except that you are wrong. It is just not true, that other teams were not influenced by the tax. Just because the Yankees were often way over it, doesn't mean that other teams were not bumping up against it. You may be seriously underestimating how low the LT threshold was early on. I am just going by Wikipedia, and not going to bother independently verifying it:

2003 $117,000,000
2004 
$120,500,000
2005 
$128,000,000
2006 
$136,500,000
2007 
$148,000,000
2008 
$155,000,000
2009 
$162,000,000
2010 
$170,000,000
2011 
$178,000,000
2012 
$178,000,000
2013 
$178,000,000
2014 
$189,000,000
2015 
$189,000,000
2016 
$189,000,000
2017 
$195,000,000 


For the early payers, the Red Sox paid the LT from 2004-2007, 2010, and 2011 (as well as 2015 and 2016). The Tigers also paid in in 2008, and the Angels in 2004.

I follow the Sox closely, and know for a fact that the FO / ownership were very vocal about not wanting to be repeat payers, and having the tax escalate to the higher percentages. They were ok with dipping over every now and then, but it was essentially a soft cap for them, that they would not stay over.

I also remember plenty of speculation about whether Ilitch might be willing to go higher to push for a WS without the tax, as well as speculation about the Phillies at the height of their run.
   103. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 07:56 AM (#5607090)
I follow the Sox closely, and know for a fact that the FO / ownership were very vocal about not wanting to be repeat payers


Do you remember what year it was that they organization publicly apologized to Bud Selig for going over the limit? I think it was around 2005, 2006 or so.
   104. manchestermets Posted: January 16, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5607138)
Lassus's hot take: "I'm perfectly happy to ignore all the actual cited evidence in favor of my own imagination."


Hearsay and conjecture are kinds of evidence.

Regardless, you've managed to elide the point about your ridiculous description of the Yankees' acquisition of the second best young hitter in baseball as "shrewd", so well done on that I guess.
   105. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5607143)
Because you want to see winners lose. It’s ok. You can admit it. You get the easy, effortless thrill that comes from being able to root for every team in a league save one. The fandom of a loser.


If the same team won every year baseball would be boring for me personally. The Yankees won 5 times between 1996-2009 and were in the running all the other years. I grew up in Jersey among quite a few arrogant Yankees fans who gave me a hard time when I was a kid because the Mets sucked. I think it's kind of lousy to go around calling people losers because they don't support the same baseball team you do, especially when there were no ad hominem attacks made on you. If you want to know why people really hate the Yankees, look no further than the mentality that if you don't like them that makes you a loser. It is curious that you would compare others in this thread to the president, when it is you who is going around calling people losers for trivial reasons. These are the actions of an entitled bully. Seriously you should consider switching to decaf.

That said, I am not against luxury tax reform, nor do I disagree with the fundamental notion that the players rather than the owners should make the lion's share of profits. I also know that the Yankees, much the same as all the other teams with high payrolls, knew the rules when they signed these guys to outrageous contracts (especially Ellsbury who never warranted a contract like this); and no amount of fake outrage from Yankee fans over the poor unfortunate Mr. Ellsbury changes the fact that their bed is made and now they must lie in it.
   106. Fat Al Posted: January 16, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5607151)
I also know that the Yankees, much the same as all the other teams with high payrolls, knew the rules when they signed these guys to outrageous contracts (especially Ellsbury who never warranted a contract like this); and no amount of fake outrage from Yankee fans over the poor unfortunate Mr. Ellsbury changes the fact that their bed is made and now they must lie in it.


I'm a die-hard Yankees fan and I fully agree with this. This contract was insane at the time, and is Exhibit A whenever the exaltation of Cashman rears its head. The contract was irrational (very much including the utterly idiotic no-trade clause), and it's probably healthy for the franchise to have to stare at that reminder of what mismanagement reaps.
   107. Rally Posted: January 16, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5607162)
Stranger things have happened. If 2013-2016 Aaron Hicks shows up, it's his job.


Not necessarily. CF could be Gardner's job if they have another bat they like more than Ellsbury to DH. Or Frazier's.
   108. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5607177)
Regardless, you've managed to elide the point about your ridiculous description of the Yankees' acquisition of the second best young hitter in baseball as "shrewd"


Aren't you the nut job who said, in the absence of any evidence and with a great deal of evidence to the contrary, that Stanton would only accept a trade to the Yankees? I don't see where you've admitted the error since, although perhaps I missed it. Absent such an obvious acknowledgement of your overblown claim I can't even consider discussing the shrewdness of Mr. Cashman's dealings, since you may well think the word has something to do with shrews.
   109. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5607204)
The best part of when anything bad or even semi-sort-of-bad happens to the Yankees is reading how their fans respond.
   110. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5607210)
If you want to know why people really hate the Yankees, look no further than the mentality that if you don't like them that makes you a loser.

There are plenty of other good reasons too.
   111. Fat Al Posted: January 16, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5607242)
Consider for a moment the possibility that the only thing sillier than idiotic Yankees (or Red Sox or Patriots or whatever) fans is people characterizing/debating how idiotic Yankees (or whatever) fans are.
   112. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5607271)
Consider for a moment the possibility that the only thing sillier than idiotic Yankees (or Red Sox or Patriots or whatever) fans is people characterizing/debating how idiotic Yankees (or whatever) fans are.


How about being amused by the entitled wealthy guy sobbing because his BMW got a flat tire that one time?

EDIT: If that same guy didn't preen all the darn time and also lecture about how the roads are paid for by his taxes and he should get preferential treatment, then his first world plight would get some sympathy from the proles. As it is, not so much.
   113. Fat Al Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5607273)

How about being amused by the entitled wealthy guy sobbing because his BMW got a flat tire that one time?


Sure. Porsche even better.
   114. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5607283)
If the same team won every year baseball would be boring for me personally. The Yankees won 5 times between 1996-2009


So you agree there's been no risk, at least in your lifetime, of a team winning every year. Unless by "winning" you mean carrying a winning record, which seems unduly harsh.

I grew up in Jersey among quite a few arrogant Yankees fans who gave me a hard time when I was a kid because the Mets sucked.


Kids picked on me because I liked to read a lot and was terrible at sports.

I think it's kind of lousy to go around calling people losers because they don't support the same baseball team you do,


But I've never done that. I call people losers NOT because they cheer for another team - everyone should passionate dedicated fans of a team - but because they cheer just as hard, if not harder, for one specific team to lose. When you're fandom relies so heavily on being able to take the entire field over one team, day in and day out, year in and year out, that's the laziest, lamest sort of fandom. That's loser fandom, because you aren't hoping for "your" team to win, you're hoping for one successful team to lose any way possible, to any team in the world.

I hope you can see the difference.

I also know that the Yankees, much the same as all the other teams with high payrolls, knew the rules when they signed these guys to outrageous contracts (especially Ellsbury who never warranted a contract like this); and no amount of fake outrage from Yankee fans over the poor unfortunate Mr. Ellsbury changes the fact that their bed is made and now they must lie in it.


Well it isn't as if the Yankees can't afford Ellsbury. My contention was that he's currently a poor fit for the roster now that the Yankees have constructed an elite outfield rotation with him as the odd man out. Making it artificially onerous to move him to a team of his choice where he can be promised a starting slot seems unfair and punitive. YMMV.
   115. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5607285)
How about being amused by the entitled wealthy guy sobbing because his BMW got a flat tire that one time?

EDIT: If that same guy didn't preen all the darn time and also lecture about how the roads are paid for by his taxes and he should get preferential treatment, then his first world plight would get some sympathy from the proles. As it is, not so much.


Oh, so the way the same poormouth owners you and your ilk demand free money for act when discussing literally anything else involving money? Bootstraps for thee, socialism for me has been their mantra for 20 years and you suckers keep indulging them.
   116. manchestermets Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5607302)
Aren't you the nut job who said, in the absence of any evidence and with a great deal of evidence to the contrary, that Stanton would only accept a trade to the Yankees? I don't see where you've admitted the error since, although perhaps I missed it. Absent such an obvious acknowledgement of your overblown claim I can't even consider discussing the shrewdness of Mr. Cashman's dealings, since you may well think the word has something to do with shrews.


This isn't where it's usually used on BTF, but I believe the phrase is "concession accepted".
   117. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5607306)
Oh, so the way the same poormouth owners you and your ilk demand free money for act when discussing literally anything else involving money? Bootstraps for thee, socialism for me has been their mantra for 20 years and you suckers keep indulging them.


All owners are - in those lights - basically scum. Some of us realize that, others think only other teams owners are scum. Which camp are you in?
   118. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5607332)
All owners are - in those lights - basically scum.


And why do you demand free money for these scum, while offering nary a hiccup of outrage over the artificial suppression of player compensation that the scheme is founded on? Why is it always the same tired, failed free money boondoggles with you people? You're as bad as the glibertarians when it comes to thinking outside your rigid, discredited orthodoxies.
   119. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5607339)
And why do you demand free money for these scum, while offering nary a hiccup of outrage over the artificial suppression of player compensation that the scheme is founded on? Why is it always the same tired, failed free money boondoggles with you people? You're as bad as the glibertarians when it comes to thinking outside your rigid, discredited orthodoxies.


I noticed you didn't answer the question*. I know why, because you don't want to lie and can't answer honestly. Sucks to be you on this topic. Sorry for that.

* Or even quote it. That hard for you, huh?
   120. TDF, trained monkey Posted: January 16, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5607388)
And why do you demand free money for these scum, while offering nary a hiccup of outrage over the artificial suppression of player compensation that the scheme is founded on? Why is it always the same tired, failed free money boondoggles with you people?
Well, for one thing the MLBPA has agreed to said scheme, so it's not for me to really complain.

Look - I (and I imagine most people) agree that owners get too much free money. I hear that one team even got more than half of their $2B stadium paid for with public funds.
   121. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5607482)
I noticed you didn't answer the question*.


What's your question? "Which camp are you in?"? It's a stupid question, not too dissimilar from the 2004 classic, "Us or the terrorists?". No, I won't tar an entire group of people as scum - not owners, not Republicans, not even the Irish. So there you go. Zinger.
   122. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5607494)
Well, for one thing the MLBPA has agreed to said scheme, so it's not for me to really complain.


Injustice doesn't rely on the objection of the oppressed.

Look - I (and I imagine most people) agree that owners get too much free money. I hear that one team even got more than half of their $2B stadium paid for with public funds.


Shameful. Of course if they didn't have over a billion dollars confiscated by the league as part of the "welfare for billionaires" program I could object more vigorously; everyone else is scamming the taxpayers, and I oppose it across the board and have done so consistently. What's preposterous and a sign of bad faith is when people bring this up when discussing the Yankees, a team that actually generates revenue and is expected to pay for luxury items for half the league, but are mute when welfare teams do the same. Of course I'm a man of constant principle, so I don't have much choice.

If you offered Young Masters Steinbrenner the option to pay for the stadium out of private funds in exchange for the elimination of the league's welfare boondoggle, I'd wager they'd accept in a heartbeat.

   123. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5607537)
If you offered Young Masters Steinbrenner the option to pay for the stadium out of private funds in exchange for the elimination of the league's welfare boondoggle, I'd wager they'd accept in a heartbeat.


Good boy. Have a cookie.
   124. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5607541)
And why do you demand free money for these scum

No, I won't tar an entire group of people as scum


OK, sure.

By your own words owners are the bad guys. And yet you are unwilling to put your favorite owners into the same group as the rest of the owners. You endlessly attack all the owners who put in place the various measures which are so "unfair" to the Yankees, but can't bring yourself to say anything about any group.

Your gymnastics are impressive, but repeated so often they become - instead - boring.
   125. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5607554)
By your own words owners are the bad guys.


Not all of them. We're discussing a very specific context here, I don't know enough about the private lives of baseball ownership groups to be able to debate who is skipping church to listen to heavy metal music.

And yet you are unwilling to put your favorite owners into the same group as the rest of the owners.


Well they aren't agitating to make the rest of the league support their teams.

You endlessly attack all the owners who put in place the various measures which are so "unfair" to the Yankees


If you're a mooch you're a mooch. If the moochers were just consistent in advocating mooching as a general good, instead of something to be reserved only for the fabulously wealthy (but a terrible moral hazard for The Poors), we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your gymnastics are impressive, but repeated so often they become - instead - boring.


Your gymnastics seem limited to autofellatio. Sad.
   126. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5607560)
If you're a mooch you're a mooch. If the moochers were just consistent in advocating mooching as a general good, instead of something to be reserved only for the fabulously wealthy (but a terrible moral hazard for The Poors), we wouldn't be having this discussion.


So much for not being willing to tar an entire group. As you say, sad.

And your limited reading comprehension seems to have missed the fact that I have not taken any stand on this subject in this thread other than to mock your posts. The fact that you assume anyone doing so is on the side of the owners and such says everything.

I think all the owners want to soak taxpayers and limit salaries. You think all owners but those of your team are bad, because they all pick on the poor Yankees. One of us is blinded by their team fandom and is indeed engaged in fellatio*.

* Not that there is anything wrong with it, I am just tired of hearing you go on about it. Yes, you love the Yankees and anything at all in their way is automatically evil. We get it.
   127. TDF, trained monkey Posted: January 16, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5607580)
What's preposterous and a sign of bad faith is when people bring this up when discussing the Yankees, a team that actually generates revenue and is expected to pay for luxury items for half the league, but are mute when welfare teams do the same.
Name one person who's done this - objected to the Yankees getting $1B in welfare from the city and state while "being mute" when other teams do the same. If anything, it's one the one thing that every poster on this site seems to agree on.
If you're a mooch you're a mooch. If the moochers were just consistent in advocating mooching as a general good, instead of something to be reserved only for the fabulously wealthy (but a terrible moral hazard for The Poors), we wouldn't be having this discussion.
It should also be noted that the amount of money that the Yankees were able to squeeze out of the public is more than any other baseball stadium has cost in total.
   128. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5607587)
So you agree there's been no risk, at least in your lifetime, of a team winning every year. Unless by "winning" you mean carrying a winning record, which seems unduly harsh.


I meant that they are in the postseason every year. I also rooted against the Braves during this time period for the same reason.

But I've never done that. I call people losers NOT because they cheer for another team - everyone should passionate dedicated fans of a team - but because they cheer just as hard, if not harder, for one specific team to lose. When you're fandom relies so heavily on being able to take the entire field over one team, day in and day out, year in and year out, that's the laziest, lamest sort of fandom. That's loser fandom, because you aren't hoping for "your" team to win, you're hoping for one successful team to lose any way possible, to any team in the world.

I hope you can see the difference.


This is a little bit of a straw man. I root for my team very hard, but as I'm sure you're aware the Mets are not always very good so sometime in the middle of the summer it usually becomes very apparent that they are not going to be in the playoffs (shout outs to 69 73 86 88 99 00 06 15 and 16). Since I like baseball more than basically anything else in the world that isn't a human, I still want to pay attention to it after this point. When you grow up being harassed by fans of a team that wins all the time, that team becomes an easy villain. I think baseball is better with the Yankees being a good team because all good storylines need a villain and I think Yankee fans enjoy having the targets on their back. I give credit to the Yankees when it is due (I always thought Jeter was overrated defensively but Robinson Cano was one of my favorite players). So yeah, do I root against the Yankees in the postseason? Sure. But it's not quite the way you make it out. I'm not going to sit out a Met-less postseason to watch football because I don't care about football. The Yankees are an awesome franchise with awesome players in their history, but like somebody once said, "rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for US Steel".

I hope you can see what I'm talking about here. I know (and am even friends with) lots of Yankee fans but none of them are gonna call me a loser because I rooted for the Astros in the ALCS last year. That's a big leap.
   129. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: January 16, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5607625)
If that same guy didn't preen all the darn time and also lecture about how the roads are paid for by his taxes and he should get preferential treatment, then his first world plight would get some sympathy from the proles. As it is, not so much.


Wait a second. Isn't "the team I root for can't compete with the big bad Yankees" also an example of a first world plight?
   130. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5607631)
Wait a second. Isn't "the team I root for can't compete with the big bad Yankees" also an example of a first world plight?


If someone said that then yes*. If someone said "Hey the system favors large market teams over small market teams and that kind of sucks as a fan of a small market team" well that might be a bit whiny, but of course it is also true.

* I am pretty sure I at least never said any such thing.
   131. Lassus Posted: January 16, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5607677)
Reasons I root against the Yankees:


1. Steinbrenner, the 70s & 80s Trump, has always been and was throughout my youth a loudmouthed privileged pig and an ass, the worst combination of the worst traits of otherwise honorable farm animals. Although I was too young to properly process such things, he was obviously a contributing factor for me becoming a Mets fan. I felt the same way about Indiana basketball when I was following such things. Rooting against jerks is honorable, and I rooted against them when they sucked as well.

2. Later on, it was fun to annoy Yankee fans by watching their pain, because they handled it so much worse than any other fans.

3. Good-natured battles with friends

4. John Sterling

5. YR's shtick

6. Rudy Giuliani

7. That shitty Irish singer

8. Speer Stadium

9. My mom hated Reggie Jackson

10. Paul O'Neill
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