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Saturday, October 06, 2012

HHS: McCloskey: The All-Time Los Angeles/Brooklyn Dodgers Team

Fear not…it’s not one of those Where’s Jackie Collums?.

So, what were the toughest decisions here?

  • Adam‘s latest wWAR formula gives Mike Piazza’s Dodgers days a slight edge over Campanella at catcher, but I feel pretty confident going with Campy for the first-team.
 
  • I’m sure an argument could be made for Steve Garvey over Hodges at 1B. When I was witnessing Garvey’s career as a youngster, I’ve got to admit he felt like a Hall of Famer to me. With hindsight, and the benefit of advanced statistical analysis, I don’t feel that way anymore. But, to be honest, I still have trouble wrapping my head around evaluating the careers of players who were perennial all-stars during my formative years, but quite possibly were over-rated.
 
  • I’m curious what the reaction will be to the fact I’ve moved Snider to RF for Davis. Let me get one thing straight first, though. If I had to choose between the two, I’d obviously choose Snider. But, since I rate Davis as the third best outfielder in Dodgers history, and it seems pretty clear he was a better defender than the Duke, I think the move makes sense.

...I suppose I’ll get some flack, if you’re assuming the order these guys are listed in represents their respective place in the rotation–it does–for Koufax at #2. In fact, based on wWAR–which does give extra credit for a player’s peak–Drysdale edges out Koufax, but it’s close enough that I’m going to succumb to peer pressure and move “The Left Arm of God” up from #3. [Actually, if you factor in batting value, Drysdale begins to pull away, but the decision whether or not to dock Koufax for his ineptitude at the plate is a tough call.]

The thing is, though, there’s a strange aspect to this all-time teams thing. Basically, we’re pretending each player is a composite (I’m sure there’s a better word than that, but it’s not coming to me right now) of the different versions of him throughout his career. In other words, Koufax is not just the pitcher who had one of the greatest peaks in history from 1961-1966 (1633 IP, 129-47, 156 ERA+, 44.4 WAR). He’s also the pitcher who struggled early in his career (1955-1960, 692 IP, 36-40, 100 ERA+, 5.9 WAR). Combining those two versions of Koufax brings him back down to earth a bit.

Now, if we’re having the proverbial “who would you want on the mound in one game for all the marbles?” discussion, I’d definitely choose Koufax, as long as we’re talking about the 1961-1966 version. Otherwise, you could definitely make a case for Vance, despite the fact he was a very late bloomer who didn’t win his first major league game until he was 31. But, all of those pre-30s struggles were before he came to Brooklyn, so they’re ignored for the purposes of this exercise.

Repoz Posted: October 06, 2012 at 07:48 AM | 148 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, history

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   1. BDC Posted: October 06, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4256661)
I used to play the old Sports Illustrated All-Time-All-Star dice game, and the Dodger lineup I'd use, as of about 1972 when the game was published, tended to look like:

C Campanella
1B Hodges
2B Robinson
3B various (you could shuffle Gilliam, Wills, Jimmy Johnston, and others through 3B, with Billy Cox as the defensive option)
SS Reese
RF Wheat
CF Snider
LF Furillo/Herman

and a starting rotation of Koufax, Drysdale, Vance, Nap Rucker, and Jeff Pfeffer. The bullpen was relatively strong, with Ron Perranoski and Hugh Casey.

My, was that a long time ago. In retrospect, the Dodgers had virtually just left Brooklyn.
   2. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 06, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4256674)
Truth be told, take away the pitchers and that's not all that great a team, especially considering there's 129 years to choose from. How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?
   3. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 06, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4256758)
CF (Willie Davis)

Over Snider?

EDIT: as your choice, as opposed to TFA's, I mean.
   4. valuearbitrageur Posted: October 06, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4256760)
he felt like a Hall of Famer to me


That's what she said!
   5. Sweatpants Posted: October 06, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4256804)
How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?
The Braves, unless you were referring to those three positions specifically - they have some really weak choices in their all-time lineup.

C: McCann, Crandall, and Lopez are all roughly equal choices. Oops, forgot about Joe Torre.
1B: Fred Tenney or Joe Adcock
2B: Bobby Lowe or Marcus Giles
SS: Herman Long or Johnny Logan

It's a team that's had great third basemen, great center fielders, great pitchers, and Henry Aaron.
   6. BDC Posted: October 06, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4256812)
I remember the Braves as a weak all-time club because of the gaps in the lineup and also because they had so many RHB in their "lineup." Tenney, Long, and Eddie Mathews were the plausible left-handed-hitting regulars. Chipper can help now, but that's quite an smackdown for the 3B job; Chipper may have to go to LF again.
   7. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4256831)
My all Brooklyn city-team minus pitchers:

C - Campanella
C - Santop
C - Al Lopez
C - Babe Phelps
1B - Hodges
1B - Camili
1B - Fournier
2B - Jackie
2B - Cuccinello
2B - Gilliam
3B - Red Smith
3B - Sammy Strang
3B - Joe Stripp
SS - Reese
SS - Home Run Johnson
SS - Dahlen
CF - Snider
CF - Reiser
CF - Mike Griffin
CF - Johnny Frederick
OF - Zack Wheat
OF - Jimmy Sheckard
OF - Babe Herman
OF - Dixie Walker
OF - Lefty O'Doul
OF - Carl Furillo
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4256859)
Truth be told, take away the pitchers and that's not all that great a team, especially considering there's 129 years to choose from. How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?


Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball? The Cardinals have offense to spare, but their starting pitching quickly peters out after about two names. Same could be said about the Yankees(they have slightly better pitching, but again, their third guy wouldn't make the Dodgers team)
   9. AndrewJ Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4256862)
How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

The Phillies are plenty weak at C (Daulton, Boone, Lieberthal, perhaps Ruiz) and 1B (Howard, Kruk, Luderus) and 2B (Utley, Tony Taylor, a few early Nap Lajoie seasons)
   10. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4256871)
Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball? The Cardinals have offense to spare, but their starting pitching quickly peters out after about two names. Same could be said about the Yankees(they have slightly better pitching, but again, their third guy wouldn't make the Dodgers team)

Sounds like the main reason the Dodgers won the 1963 World Series so easily, doesn't it?

If you were looking for the best balance between position players and pitchers, though, you'd probably want the A's or the Giants. Which is kind of ironic in the A's case, since their overall franchise record is well below .500.
   11. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4256872)
Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball?

The A's and Giants certainly.
   12. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4256876)
The A's and Giants certainly.


I was thinking of the A's...didn't think of the Giants.
   13. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4256881)
The Phillies are plenty weak at C (Daulton, Boone, Lieberthal, perhaps Ruiz) and 1B (Howard, Kruk, Luderus) and 2B (Utley, Tony Taylor, a few early Nap Lajoie seasons)

I believe Jack Clements, the left-handed throwing catcher from back in the day, gets a fair amount of love at the Hall of Merit. Andy Seminick was a pretty good player though closer to Lieberthal than to being a true great player.
   14. Steve Treder Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4256883)
Is it too soon to put Buster Posey on the Giants' all-time team? If not:

C-Buster Posey
1B-Willie McCovey
2B-Frankie Frisch (maybe Jeff Kent? Rogers Hornsby or Joe Morgan would be no fair)
SS-Alvin Dark (maybe Travis Jackson? Rich Aurilia?)
3B-Matt Williams
RF-Mel Ott
CF-Willie Mays
LF-Barry Bonds
SP-Christy Mathewson
SP-Juan Marichal
SP-Carl Hubbell
SP-Gaylord Perry
RP-Hoyt Wilhelm
   15. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4256885)
The Giants franchise may very well beat out the Yankees in terms of who could put together the best 25 man roster. Shortstop is a bit of an issue, but otherwise the positions all seem to fall into place nicely. As crazy good as the Yankees outfield would be, Bonds/Mays/Ott can't lose much ground to anybody.
   16. BDC Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4256887)
how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball?

They haven't added a lot of long-term stars lately, but the Indians are pretty well-rounded. Speaker and Lajoie in the heart of the lineup, and Boudreau at SS with Vizquel to caddy as if he needs it. Averill, Doby, Rosen, Jim Thome or Hal Trosky at 1B, or at DH unless you want prime Travis Hafner. Kenny Lofton to lead off. Their best-hitting long-time catcher might still be Steve O'Neill, so I suppose it isn't all thunder and lightning. Meanwhile for a pitching staff you've got Feller, Lemon, Wynn, Joss, Coveleski, Harder. Mike Garcia, Sam McDowell, maybe CC unless he ends up playing a lot more years for the Yankees some day. That's a deep bunch compared to lots of other franchises.
   17. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4256888)
The Cardinals would be
1b Pujols
2b Hornsby
ss Ozzie
3b Boyer
LF Brock(I acknowledge his war isn't the greatest, but you have to put him in as a Cardinal here)
CF Flood
RF Musial(you can put him in several spots of course)

SP Gibson
SP Dean
Sp Carpenter(sad but he is in the top ten in war for the cardinal pitchers)
SP Jesse Haines
SP Harry Brechen(?)or Mort Cooper(Wainwright is very close to making this list)

RP Hrabosky(sad, but best choice available....Worrell, Hrabosky, Sutter, Isringhausen, are all interchangeable)


   18. AndrewJ Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4256891)
And not too many franchises have two (or more) Hall of Famers at the same position. The Braves are one example with Chipper and Eddie Mathews at third. The Yankees at catcher, the Red Sox and Cardinals in left.
   19. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4256893)
I think you still have to put Bresnahan ahead, and even if not Buck Ewing belongs even admitting that it was neither the same game nor the same position way back then. My stab:

C - Ewing
1B - McCovey
2B - Frisch
3B - George Davis
SS - Bancroft
LF - Barry
CF - Willie
RF - Eddie

SP - Mathewson
SP - Hubbell
SP - Keefe
SP - Marichal
SP - Lincecum

RP - Nen (I'd give Wilhelm to the White Sox or Orioles)
   20. BDC Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4256903)
I think you still have to put Bresnahan ahead

Chief Meyers was an excellent hitting catcher too, and handled the staffs of several pennant winners; his defensive reputation was pretty good as I recall, though he didn't play as long as Bresnahan or Ewing. So maybe he can be a backup till Posey is ready to call up :)
   21. AndrewJ Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4256906)
And the Phillies' top three starters (Alexander, Roberts, Carlton) can go up against any team's, even the Red Sox (Young, Clemens, Pedro) or Braves (Nichols, Spahn, Maddux)...
   22. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4256907)
An interesting situation is how non-terrible the Toronto Blue Jays are:

C - Ernie Whitt
1B - Delgado or Olerud
2B - Alomar (he fits as much with the Jays as anybody)
3B - Kelly Gruber (ugg)
SS - Tony Fernandez
LF - Joey Bats
CF - Lloyd Moseby
RF - Jesse Barfield
DH - George Bell or Delgado if Olerud at first

SP - Halladay
SP - Stieb
SP - Key
SP - Hentgen
SP - Clancy

RP - Henke

That's not the best team in the world, but it would smack around many of the expansion franchises who had a head start on them like the Mets, Rangers and Padres.
   23. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4256912)
And not too many franchises have two (or more) Hall of Famers at the same position. The Braves are one example with Chipper and Eddie Mathews at third. The Yankees at catcher, the Red Sox and Cardinals in left.


The Cubs at second base.
   24. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4256913)
The D'Backs, Marlins, Rays and Padres are the weakest, with the Rays being probably the weakest. Canseco may make that 25 man roster. The Marlins are near impossible to put together because outside of Jeff Conine, nobody sticks around for very long.

I actually enjoy putting city teams together more, as then you can put negro league players in as well. In the city setup, it's amazing how wonderful a team Pittsburgh has even without Bonds. Philadelphia is laoded too, but then the Yankees get their pitching staff massively upgraded thanks to the Giants and Mets.
   25. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4256918)
The Cubs at second base.

They also have multiple Hall of Famers at shortstop and first base as well. Maybe if Aramis starts netting some support they can have a whole infield. :)
   26. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4256924)
They also have multiple Hall of Famers at shortstop and first base as well.


I forgot about Tinker, Evers and Chance. So they have three Hall of Fame second basemen.
   27. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4256930)
The A's and Giants certainly.

As I pointed out above, the A's also have an overall sub-.500 franchise record, which makes me wonder if they'd also have the all-time worst team made up of players who stuck around for 500 games. Their main competition in that category would likely be the Phillies and the Browns / Orioles, but consider this: Between 1901 and 1969, when division play began, the A's finished last 24 times and the Phillies 22, and 11 times it was in the same year.
   28. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4256934)
The Cubs are pretty strong on both sides:

C - Hartnett
1B - Anson
2B - Sandberg
SS - Banks
3B - Santo
Lf - Williams
CF - Wilson
RF - Sosa

SP - Brown
SP - Alexander
SP - Maddux
SP - Jenkins
SP - Reuschel
RP - Sutter, Smith

On the bench you have Herman, Hack, Cuyler, Kling, Dawson
   29. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4256937)
So they have three Hall of Fame second basemen.


4 if you count Hornsby.
   30. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4256942)
[14]
SS-Alvin Dark (maybe Travis Jackson? Rich Aurilia?)


No love for George Davis?
   31. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4256945)
I've been going under the assumption that every player gets one team and one team only. So Hornsby to the Cardinals, Maddux to the Braves, Alexander to the Phillies and Cuyler probably to the Pirates if they need him.

Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers. I went with Speaker in Boston and Bunning in Detroit (who need him more than the Phillies).
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4256947)
Red Sox (just counting guys who put up more value in Boston than any other place, so we lose Young, Grove, Foxx and Speaker)
C - Fisk
1B - Yaz (had to do something about the LF logjam)
2B - Doerr
SS - Nomar (Cronin spent more time in Boston, but he was better in Washington)
3B - Boggs
LF - Rice
CF - Dom Dimaggio
RF - Evans
DH - Williams

SP - Clemens
SP - Pedro
SP - Tiant
SP - Wood
SP - Wakefield

RP - Bob Stanley


   33. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4256954)
By the way while Posey probably is too early for the New York team, I think he probably already has pushed past Terry Steinbach for a spot on an otherwise fully loaded Bay Area team:

C - Posey
1B - McCovey/Clark/McGwire/Giambi (that's a bunch of talent for just the late 60s on)
2B - Kent
3B - Bando or Matt Williams
SS - Tejada or maybe Campaneris
OF - Which one of Rickey, Willie, Barry or Reggie do you send to the bench?

SP - Marichal, Perry, Lincecum, Hudson, Cain, Blue
RP - Eckersley and Rollie

Brandon Moss comes up just short...
   34. cardsfanboy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4256968)
I've been going under the assumption that every player gets one team and one team only. So Hornsby to the Cardinals, Maddux to the Braves, Alexander to the Phillies and Cuyler probably to the Pirates if they need him.


I go by the assumption that the player is rated only by the years he had on the team, so you can get Bruce Sutter or Lee Smith with both the Cubs and Cardinals. Of course when making lists like this, I'm looking for both quantity and quality. War is a great start, WAA is probably better.
   35. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4256976)
Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers.


I'd say Eddie Collins is the toughest choice in that regard.
   36. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4256985)
Who gets Frank Robinson?
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4256989)
Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers.


I think the hardest calls are guys who spent longer with one team, but were better with another (such as Piazza).

   38. Walt Davis Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4257008)
How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

I'd say you're seriously under-rating Cey and probably Davis. Career 121 OPS+ in over 8000 PA. Among players with at least 1200 games at 3B, he's 12th in OPS+.* He wasn't a great defender so he falls to 18th in WAR ... and, OK, most of the guys ahead of him are from original 16 teams so he is one of the worst you'd find on those teams (there are repeats so he wouldn't be the worst and you decide who gets Rolen and Bell). Also while Cey beats him on Dodger playing time, Beltre deserves some consideration for the spot.

As to Davis, you can all get into a tizzy about dWAR again if you want but, among players with 1200+ games in CF, Davis is 13th with 57 WAR. If you want to slam the Dodgers, it's not the weakness in CF (where of course they have the even better Snider), it's the weakness in the corner OF spots where the best is Wheat (respectable 57 WAR but that's gonna pale in comparison to the elite corner OFs) and then you're down to guys like Furillo, Guerrero or Dixie Walker. Willie Davis as your 2nd best CF is pretty impressive really ... just not as impressive as the Yanks

As to Hodges, he's not awe-inspiring but historically there haven't been many great players who spent a career at 1B. Plenty of great players who spent part of a career at 1B but usually as they were fading at the end; or players who were so limited defensively from the very start who ended up not having long careers (e.g. Boog Powell). Through 1960, there were only 38 players with at least 1200 games at 1B (post-1900). Hodges stood 8th in WAR at that time although behind such greats as Ed Konetchy and Joe Judge. There are now 91 such players and Hodges is 26th in WAR -- OK, one of those is Banks so call it 25th. We just had the era of the great 1B ... and James Loney wasn't one of them. :-)

*If you make playing time equivalent, you can argue Da Evans over Cey but you can also argue Cey over Madlock.
   39. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4257009)
I think Robinson is clearly the Reds and Piazza is clearly the Dodgers and Collins is an Athletic. I think if you're better with one team and there for any length of time, that's where you go. The problem with Speaker and Bunning is that it's razor thin as to which they were better at. Seems like the younger Speaker would be the more Speaker-ish type of player you want. Excellent hitter/transformative defender. The Tigers just need Bunning more than the Phillies do.

Also sometimes the rest of the roster matters. The New York team doesn't need Piazza but the LA team desperately does. On the other hand, the Dodgers don't really need him and the Mets obviously do.
   40. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4257012)
Also for the Dodgers they have Camili as a choice at first who was a heck of a player with a career shortened by being stuck in the minors forever (he played roughly six full years in the PCL before sticking in the majors). Sort of a poor-man's Edgar Martinez. That's a hell of a seven year stretch from 1936-1942.
   41. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 06, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4257020)
The Reds team, much like the current one, might be better off just going with relievers the whole time, but the lineup is very strong even without exploiting the odd situation of the early professional club.

C - Bench
1B - Votto
2B - Morgan
3B - Perez or Groh
SS - Larkin
LF - Rose
CF - Roush
RF - Robinson

And a very strong bench of

C - Lombardi
IF - McPhee
IF - Groh
OF - Pinson
OF - Foster

The starting pitching is really questionable though. Johnny Cueto is legitimately in the rotation mix. Eppa Rixey is likely their ace.
   42. Chris Fluit Posted: October 06, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4257113)
The Orioles have a pretty decent team, despite a couple holes and a rotation falls off more quickly than I would have thought.

C: Matt Wieters
1B: Eddie Murray
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Cal Ripken Jr
3B: Brooks Robinson
LF: Ken Singleton
CF: Brady Anderson
RF: Frank Robinson
DH: Boog Powell

SP: Jim Palmer
SP: Mike Mussina
SP: Mike Cuellar
SP: Dave McNally
SP: Milt Pappas
RP: Stu Miller

Bench:
C: Rick Dempsey
2B: Brian Roberts
2B: Davey Johnson
SS: Marc Belanger
3B: Melvin Mora
LF: BJ Surhoff
CF: Adam Jones
RF: Nick Markakis

(Alomar, Aparicio, Palmeiro and Tejada are left out as the property of other teams)
   43. Mefisto Posted: October 06, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4257133)
Another player who's very hard to place is Mize. He came up with the Cards and had his best years there, plus war time credit, but they also have Pujols and even Musial if they want.
   44. chisoxcollector Posted: October 06, 2012 at 08:09 PM (#4257165)
White Sox, off the top of my head:

C: Carlton Fisk (based on his White Sox years... Red Sox ranking would be based on his Red Sox years)
1B: Dick Allen (or Paul Konerko)
2B: Eddie Collins (or Nellie Fox)
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Luke Appling
LF: Joe Jackson (or Minnie Minoso)
CF: Chet Lemon? (definitely their weakest position)
RF: Magglio Ordonez (or maybe Harold Baines)
DH: Frank Thomas

SP: Ed Walsh
SP: Ted Lyons
SP: Red Faber
SP: Billy Pierce
SP: Either Wilbur Wood or Mark Buehrle

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm

Not too bad, though they are a bit weak in the OF.
   45. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4257175)
2B: Bobby Grich

(Alomar, Aparicio, Palmeiro and Tejada are left out as the property of other teams)


Grich had 1222 G and 32 WAR with Cal vs
786 G and 26 WAR with Bal.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: October 06, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4257238)
Grich had 1222 G and 32 WAR with Cal vs
786 G and 26 WAR with Bal.


Well, I'll be.

I don't have a problem with one guy appearing on two teams' all-time teams. I'd say it probably works best if you just set a PA floor (say 5000 PA or maybe minimum top 3 in PA at that position for that team). These are mostly peak teams anyway so if a guy had two peaks, why not? FRob had 6400 PA and 60 WAR with Cincy (yowza!) and 3500 PA with 30 WAR for Baltimore (he wasn't really there that long and missed a fair amount of time). I don't know if that 3500/30 is good enough to make Baltimore's all-time team but I don't see any reason to rule him ineligible. This is only going to matter for a few historical players so I don't see it being very confusing.

Presumably it will get a lot harder in the FA era. A guy like Rolen is just screwed in this exercise -- 28 WAR with Philly, 25 with the Cards, 13 elsewhere. Obviously he's not gonna displace Schmidt or Boyer although you can make a good argument he's a better player than Boyer. Manny, ignoring defense because accounting for defense takes all the fun out of Manny, had 37 oWAR for Boston and 32 for Cleveland.

EDIT: And somebody is seriously under-rating Chet Lemon. Way better than Ordonez and even better than Baines. The White Sox need to move one of Jackson/Minoso to RF.
   47. chisoxcollector Posted: October 06, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4257252)
And somebody is seriously under-rating Chet Lemon. Way better than Ordonez and even better than Baines.


After looking at B-R, I was a bit harsh regarding Lemon. That being said, I don't see him as being much better than Ordonez. They seem about equal to me. As for Baines, I'll take Ordonez or Lemon. Even though I'm a Sox fan, I've never been very high on Baines. He was always good, but never much more than that.

EDIT: I guess Lemon does beat Ordonez on a WAR/PA basis. So he might be a bit ahead, but I just don't see him as "way better".
   48. SoCalDemon Posted: October 06, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4257258)
At one point, I remember calculating the standard deviations of winning pct for the original 16, and the A's had by far the highest. And while most of the teams (except the Yankees, who were just always good (and even 64-75 had almost no truly bad years) bounced around a bit, the A's seemed unique in being almost exclusively excellent (1910-14; 1929-32; 1971-75; 1988-90(or 92, 91 was a weird year); 2000-03) or terrible (almost every year not mentioned between 1915 and 1998). The 2007-11 A's were an aberration for the team, a just pretty mediocre string of years. Its how you get a set of all time greats with an all-around record under 500. Also, I have to imagine the A's have the largest collection of "last year in great career" players. If you don't set a minimum PA floor, we get Cobb, Collins, Thomas, and about 20 more...
   49. SoCalDemon Posted: October 06, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4257263)
And way off topic, but Frank in 06, from June on, is one of my favorite player years ever. Coliseum is a player's park? No, you just have to hit them further. Seattle is pulling in the fences; perhaps, getting better hitters instead? The bash brothers never needed the fences brought in either. Just saying.
   50. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 06, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4257299)
you decide who gets Rolen

I suspect the Phillies might be willing to let Rolen go to St. Louis.
   51. Chris Fluit Posted: October 06, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4257319)
Bb ref has Grich with 34.4 WAR in Baltimore and 32.9 in California.
   52. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 06, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4257398)
Bb ref has Grich with 34.4 WAR in Baltimore and 32.9 in California.


You're right. i was looking at oWAR
   53. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 07, 2012 at 02:28 AM (#4257573)
Reds:
1B - Votto

?
Perez? Even Frank McCormick... Votto might turn out to be better than both, but I don't think he's there yet.
   54. Walt Davis Posted: October 07, 2012 at 02:48 AM (#4257576)
I must admit when speaking of Lemon, Maggs and Baines I was thinking career, not White Sox career ... which is cheating on my part. Still:

Maggs with Sox: 4214 PA, 23 WAR, 125 OPS+
Lemon with Sox: 3198 PA, 23 WAR, 126 OPS+
Baines with Sox: 6800 PA, 22 WAR, 118 OPS+

So that is close but the 126 OPS+ CF with good defense wins. The PA gap between him and Maggs is almost 2 seasons worth. I always forget how much time Baines spent with Baltimore and others. The only reason I had Baines in the conversation was his ridiculously long career puts you into a career vs peak argument ... but not so much for just his Sox career and his defense was never good so you probably wouldn't take him over Maggs in the OF.

And Minoso: 5900 PA, 39 WAR, 133 OPS+
Jackson: 2900 PA, 34 WAR, 159 OPS+

One of them has to move to RF unless we missed somebody. White Sox historically are all about the IF

Appling 70
Thomas 65
Collins 63
Fox 45
Minoso 39
Ventura 37
Aparicio 33
G Davis 31

So 6 of the top 8 are 2B/SS/3B. Davis played some CF apparently but not for the Sox and he was faded by the time he got to them. Fielder Jones (thank you P-I) put up 30 WAR mostly in CF so maybe he gets the nod over Lemon. If they get to keep their part of Collins' career then they've simply got to package Fox and Aparicio for a legit corner OF bat. The Braves were whining about their 2B and SS, see what you can pry loose from them.

I also notice that Fisk, Schalk and Lollar have essentially the same WAR.

By the way, I assume one of you suckers has nothing better to do, slap these babies into Diamond Mind and run a few thousand seasons and let's see what we get. Let's say the original 16 play a pre-expansion schedule and the 10 expansion teams that have been around a while can have their own league. Let's see if the A's can catch the Yanks and if the Cubs can give the Cards and Giants any trouble. (Hmmm ... what stat line to put in? How about best 5 consecutive for that team?)

Surely somebody has done this already but I don't remember seeing it.
   55. Walt Davis Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:02 AM (#4257590)
Which one of Rickey, Willie, Barry or Reggie do you send to the bench?

Reggie based on playing time for the A's and peak production. The only real question about that is neither Barry nor Rickey really have the arm for right. Giambi would also lose out based on PT I suppose.

How about a platoon -- Reggie (RF), McCovey/Giambi (1B/DH) against RHP, Rickey and McGwire and, ohh, Gene Tenace against LHP. Oh, what the hell, let's platoon Mays and Bill North while we're at it. :-)
   56. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 07, 2012 at 08:26 AM (#4257597)
All-Detroit:

1B: Greenberg (Cash)
2B: Gehringer (McAuliffe)
3B: Cabrera (yes, really)
SS: Trammell (Bush)
LF: Turkey Stearns (Veach)
CF: Cobb (Crawford)
RF: Kaline (Heilmann)
C: Freehan (Parrish)
DH: Whitaker

In a perfect world, you'd send one of the second basemen to third and have Miggy DH. Either way, that's a killer lineup.

Stearns is the only great Negro Leaguer who spent significant time in Detroit; part of the reason for that is the Negro Leagues weren't too popular in Detroit (actually, blacks themselves weren't too popular in Motown until the 70s). The Detroit Stars pretty much died out in the early 30s when their ballpark burned down.

Starting pitchers: Newhouser, Bridges, Lolich, Morris, Verlander
Relief Ace: Hiller
On the roster because it's my team: Fidrych
Not on the roster for the same reason: McLain
   57. micker17 Posted: October 07, 2012 at 09:17 AM (#4257604)
c- Yogi Berra----------Bill Dickey, Thurman Munson, Jorge Posada, Elston Howard
1b- Lou Gehrig----------Don Mattingly, Jason Giambi, Mark Teixeira
2b- Tony Lazzeri--------Robinson Cano, Joe Gordon, Willie Randolph
ss- Derek Jeter---------Phil Rizzuto
3b- Alex Rodriguez------Graig Nettles
rf- Babe Ruth-----------Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Paul O'Neill, Roger Maris
cf- Joe DiMaggio--------Bernie Williams, Earle Combs, Bobby Murcer
lf- Mickey Mantle-------Rickey Henderson, Roy White, Willie Keeler, Charlie Keller

sp- Whitey Ford
sp- Lefty Gomez---------Roger Clemens, David Cone, Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia
sp- Ron Guidry----------Mel Stotlemyer, Catfish Hunter, Tommy John
sp- Red Ruffing---------Allie Reynolds, Vic Raschi, Eddie Lopat, Spud Chandler
sp- Andy Pettitte-------Jack Chesbro, Carl Mays, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock, Bob Shawkey

rp- Mariano Rivera
rp- Goose Gossage
rp- Sparky Lyle
rp- Dave Righetti
rp- Johnny Murphy
rp- Joe Page
   58. Downtown Bookie Posted: October 07, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4257615)
Quoting the article:

Robinson 2B
Reese SS
Wheat LF
Snider RF
Campanella C
Cey 3B
Hodges 1B
Davis CF


What amazed me when I first read this was how many of these players were teammates, and how little spread there is among decades. Robinson, Reese, Campanella, Snider and Hodges were all part of the "Boys of Summer" era. Hodges and Davis were teammates for a couple of years. Cey is the only one on the list who was with the Dodgers post-1973. Wheat's career is the only one that begins prior to 1940; in fact, Wheat is the only one on the list to have not played under Manager Walter Alston.

Again, I was just amazed that, for a franchise that has had as much success as the Dodgers have had, so much of the team occupies such a small time frame of history.

DB
   59. chisoxcollector Posted: October 07, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4257617)
One of them has to move to RF unless we missed somebody.


Yeah, you're probably right. Minoso played about 100 games in right for the Sox, so I don't think it'd be cheating to put him there , Jackson in left, and Magglio on the bench.

And you're also right regarding Lemon. He was better than I've been giving him credit for. Though now that you bring up Fielder Jones, if we give him any credit for also being the manager during his best years, he'd have to be the guy in CF.

The other question is who would manage the White Sox team. Al Lopez (840W, 650L)? They never won the World Series under Al, but they were consistently good. If you want somebody with a championship, your options are Fielder Jones himself (426W, 239L), Pants Rowland (339W, 247L) and Ozzie Guillen (678W, 617L).
   60. BDC Posted: October 07, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4257636)
We need a Senators/Twins team.

C Joe Mauer
1B Harmon Killebrew
2B Rod Carew
3B Buddy Lewis
SS Cecil Travis
RF Tony Oliva
CF Kirby Puckett
LF Goose Goslin

SP Walter Johnson
SP Jim Kaat
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Jim Perry

actually there are a lot of closely-grouped starters to choose among after Johnson, Kaat, and Blyleven, including Frank Viola, Camilo Pascual, Knuckleball Dutch Leonard, Frank Viola, Johan Santana. (For that matter, Brad Radke is pretty high on the franchise's leaderboards; looking back, he was a much better pitcher than I remember.) I'd want Firpo Marberry in the bullpen.

One is tempted to move Killebrew to third to get another bat in the lineup, Mickey Vernon or Kent Hrbek; but Buddy Lewis was pretty good. The defensive standout at 3B would be Ossie Bluege, though Gary Gaetti was also very good.

Before Mauer, the franchise's best catchers were Muddy Ruel, Earl Battey, Butch Wynegar, and Brian Harper. Quite an upgrade …
   61. Morty Causa Posted: October 07, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4257637)
57:

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not only are the Yankees deep, but its starting eight, except for second base, is arguably all-time inner circle great. And the pitching, while except for Clemens, has no truly inner circle greats, and Clemens only pitched a short while for them, is still pretty damn impressive.
   62. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4257683)
It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.
   63. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4257684)
Following up Walt's suggestion in 54, a Diamond Mind tournament would be great. There'd have to be some rules about which players go to which teams (e.g., original team or team for which they had the most value) and which positions they can play (e.g., 200 games in the majors or something like that). But it would be fun.
   64. BDC Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4257704)
Looking at those Senators/Twins again, it's a heavily LHB lineup (sort of the reverse of the Braves). In a Diamond Mind league, Killebrew and Puckett would probably see a lot of "marginal" LHP (given that "marginal" in an all-time league is going to be the likes of Andy Pettitte or Billy Pierce).
   65. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4257718)
The other question is who would manage the White Sox team. Al Lopez (840W, 650L)? They never won the World Series under Al, but they were consistently good. If you want somebody with a championship, your options are Fielder Jones himself (426W, 239L), Pants Rowland (339W, 247L) and Ozzie Guillen (678W, 617L).


I think it's clearly Lopez, despite the lack of a ring. Not that it's the only factor but he's also the only Hall of Famer on the list.
   66. cardsfanboy Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4257720)
Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not only are the Yankees deep, but its starting eight, except for second base, is arguably all-time inner circle great. And the pitching, while except for Clemens, has no truly inner circle greats, and Clemens only pitched a short while for them, is still pretty damn impressive.


Only if you are giving credit to the player for their whole careers. Arod as a Yankee isn't inner circle, he's merely just very good. But I was noticing when comparing the Cardinals to the Yankees, that the Cardinals fourth best position player of all time was Ozzie Smith, the Yankees was some guy named Dimaggio. (and the Yankees still have Jeter and Yogi to add to that list)

It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.


Wow, just looking at Rickey, he brought 30 war to the Yankees(in five years). I didn't think he was that good with the Yankees. That is someone they could arguably claim on their lineup, unless we are using the rule about player can only be claimed by one team. Clemens though 19 war,114 era+ over 6 seasons, is ok, but it's not really anything I would expect to make an all time team of the Yankees caliber.
   67. cardsfanboy Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4257729)
Following up Walt's suggestion in 54, a Diamond Mind tournament would be great. There'd have to be some rules about which players go to which teams (e.g., original team or team for which they had the most value) and which positions they can play (e.g., 200 games in the majors or something like that). But it would be fun.


That would be pretty cool, although I imagine almost every world series in this hypothetical being Yankees vs Giants. Another version would be to create a diamond mind out of best teams based upon the best single season at each position, which would reduce the controversy about selection process in some respects but would end up bringing in a lot more one season wonders and may not be as enjoyable.


   68. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4257733)
It's kind of cheating to include Clemens and Rickey on the Yankees team. Clemens put up less than 15% of his career value with the Yanks, while Rickey put up just 35%. #57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.


Yeah, that bench includes a lot of guys who put up more value with other franchises. I bent the concept a bit by including F Robbie on the Orioles since they've built a statue to him, but the Yankees list is a little ridiculous. Giambi is on the A's (8 yrs to 7, 26.6 WAR to 20.2), Winfield should probably be a Padre (fewer seasons but more WAR), Keeler is with the old Orioles (nearly two and a a half times the WAR) or the Dodgers if you want a current franchise (14.6 to 10.2 on WAR), Mussina is with the Orioles (more seasons and more WAR), Catfish Hunter is with the A's (twice the years, nearly four times the WAR), Tommy John is with the White Sox (one fewer season, 3.5 more WAR) and Carl Mays is with the Red Sox (though just barely with 15.2 to 14.7 WAR and 15 more innings). The Yankees have enough great players of their own that they don't need to swipe them other franchises.

   69. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4257746)
All-Detroit:

1B: Greenberg (Cash)
2B: Gehringer (McAuliffe)
3B: Cabrera (yes, really)
SS: Trammell (Bush)
LF: Turkey Stearns (Veach)
CF: Cobb (Crawford)
RF: Kaline (Heilmann)
C: Freehan (Parrish)
DH: Whitaker

In a perfect world, you'd send one of the second basemen to third and have Miggy DH. Either way, that's a killer lineup.


Gehringer had 3 games at 3rd so he'd probably be the guy you move though you correctly noted that Whitaker had more games at DH. Whitaker at 2nd (+77 fielding runs) and Gehringer as DH would also be preferable. I would agree with you concerning Cabrera as their best third baseman. With their up the middle defense, the all-time Tigers could handle Cabrera pretty easily. Finally, if you're denied Stearnes bc. he wasn't technically a Tiger, Crawford could move over to left (he had 134 games there).


Starting pitchers: Newhouser, Bridges, Lolich, Morris, Verlander
Relief Ace: Hiller
On the roster because it's my team: Fidrych
Not on the roster for the same reason: McLain


The Tigers have a really deep staff, even after losing Bunning to the Phillies. Dizzy Trout and Virgil Trucks were a couple of great pitchers in the 1940s and could supplant Lolich and Morris if you're looking for rate stats instead of innings eaters.
   70. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4257763)
The Giants franchise may very well beat out the Yankees in terms of who could put together the best 25 man roster. Shortstop is a bit of an issue, but otherwise the positions all seem to fall into place nicely. As crazy good as the Yankees outfield would be, Bonds/Mays/Ott can't lose much ground to anybody.


I'm surprised that you'd consider shortstop a weakness for the Giants. They didn't have any inner circle players but they consistently put Hall of Very Good guys out there decade after decade.

Art Fletcher, 1912-1919 (45.1 WAR, 40.5 with the Giants)
Dave Bancroft, 1920-1923 (46.5 WAR, 22.1 with the Giants)
Travis Jackson, 1924-1934 (42.0 WAR, all with the Giants)
Dick Bartell, 1935-1938 (37.3 WAR, 25.9 with the Giants)
then after a bit of a gap
Al Dark, 1950-1955 (39.6 WAR, 25.3 with the Giants)
   71. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4257773)

3B - Kelly Gruber (ugg)



I agree. Ugg. Is it too soon to put Brett Lawrie there?
   72. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4257847)
Chris, the Giants best SS would still be George Davis.
   73. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4257851)
Definitely. I was reacting to the initial lineup and the comment that it was a position of weakness for the franchise. That's a deep group of shortstops. But you're right that Davis is at the top of the list and would probably count as an inner circle player.
   74. PreservedFish Posted: October 07, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4257864)
I don't think the Blue Jays would smack around the Mets.

C - Piazza
1b - Hernandez
2b - Alfonzo
3b - Wright
SS - Reyes
LF - Cleon Jones
CF - Beltran
RF - Strawberry

SP - Seaver
SP - Gooden
SP - Koosman
SP - Cone
SP - Dickey!

RP - Franco, Orosco, McGraw

   75. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4258182)
So far, we've got teams for the Dodgers, Giants, Cardinals, (Giants redux), Blue Jays, Cubs, Red Sox, Reds, Orioles, White Sox, Tigers, Yankees, Senators/Twins and Mets.

Of the original 16, we're still missing the Pirates, Braves, Phillies, Indians, Athletics.
And of the expansion 14, we're missing the Marlins, Expos/Nationals, Astros, Brewers, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Padres, Rays, Royals, Mariners, Angels and Senators/Rangers.
   76. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 07, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4258192)
Mariners:

1B: Alvin Davis (or John Olerud)
2B: Bret Boone
SS: Alex Rodriguez
3B: Edgar Martinez
LF: Jay Buhner (well, he did play 10 games in left in 2001, the only season he and Ichiro were there together)
CF: Ken Griffey Jr.
RF: Ichiro Suzuki
C: Dan Wilson

SP: Randy Johnson, Felix Hernandez, Mark Langston, Jamie Moyer
CL: Kazuhiro Sasaki
   77. Chris Fluit Posted: October 07, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4258194)
Expos/Nationals

C: Gary Carter
1B: Rusty Staub
2B: Jose Vidro
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: Ryan Zimmerman
LF: Tim Raines
CF: Andre Dawson
RF: Vladimir Guerrero

SP: Steve Rogers
SP: Dennis Martinez
SP: Pedro Martinez (counting only his Montreal years)
SP: Javier Vazquez
SP: Livan Hernandez

Bullpen
RP: Mike Marshall
RP: Jeff Reardon
RP: John Wetteland

Bench:
2B: Delino DeShields
3B: Tim Wallach
LF: Rondell White
CF: Marquis Grissom
RF: Moises Alou

That's a world class outfield and bullpen but a very weak rotation and bench (at least until some of the current players mature; this team will be a lot better in 4-5 years with full primes from Desmond, Gonzalez, Harper and Strasburg).
   78. cardsfanboy Posted: October 07, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4258202)
That Expos/Nats team isn't that bad.
   79. SoSH U at work Posted: October 07, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4258222)
Royals
C - Mike McFarlane?
1B - Mike Sweeney
2B - Frank White
SS - Freddie Patek
3B - Brett
LF - Willie Wilson
CF - Amos Otis
RF - Danny Tartabull
DH - Hal McRae

SP - Bret Saberhagen
SP - Kevin Appier
SP - Dennis Leonard
SP - Zack Greinke
SP - Mark Gubicza

RP - Quiz

Good staff. Strong in center (biggest snubs: Beltran, Damon). Weakest at catcher. Obviously heavy with 70s/80s players, when the club developed good talent, and kept it.


   80. BDC Posted: October 07, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4258228)
I'll take the Pirates, another of the teams I liked in my old dice game.

C Jason Kendall
1B Willie Stargell
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Pie Traynor
SS Honus Wagner
RF Roberto Clemente
CF Max Carey
LF you could platoon Paul Waner and Ralph Kiner, that's a heck of an option

SP Wilbur Cooper
SP Babe Adams
SP Deacon Philippe
SP Sam Leever

Dang, but that is a weak rotation. Bob Friend is actually the Pirates' all-time IP leader, but he was just not that great a pitcher. Bob Veale is a possibility; he had almost as many strikeouts as Friend in half the time with the team. The Pirates really have not added much to their all-time staff in 40 years. Doug Drabek was the pinnacle of their pitching since then. Luckily they have Roy Face and Kent Tekulve in the bullpen.
   81. BDC Posted: October 07, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4258232)
Also, the notable thing about the Pirates that kept them afloat in the dice game despite weak pitching was an astonishing defense. If you get Lloyd Waner in left for the late innings, you have a fantastic outfield, and aside from Stargell (he played more OF but I think is a fair choice to play first for them), you have a phenomenal infield too. You can back up Kendall, as if he needs it, with Tony Peña Sr. and Mannie Sanguillen, more good gloves.
   82. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 07, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4258238)
#57 makes the Yankees look much deeper than they actually are.


But they are still pretty damned deep. All time Spent their entire career with the Yankees team:

C - Dickey, Posada, Munson
1B - Gehrig, Mattingly
2B - Cano, Richardson
SS - Jeter, Rizzuto, Crosetti
3B - Rolfe, McDougald
LF - White, Keller
CF - DiMaggio, Mantle, Combs, Williams
RF - Henrich

SP - Ford
SP - Guidry
SP - Stottlemyer
SP - Chandler
RP - Mo

Aside from the pitching, you can make nearly 2 complete lineups from those guys. Add in guys who spent merely the overwhelming majority of their careers as Yankees like Berra, Lazzeri, Gomez, Raschi, Shawkey, Pettitte... and you can make 2 teams which would be competitive in a tournament.
   83. BDC Posted: October 07, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4258253)
And I guess I should do the Rangers while I'm here:

C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Rafael Palmeiro
2B Ian Kinsler
3B Buddy Bell played slightly longer in Cleveland and was somewhat better in Texas. I imagine the Rangers get him and Cleveland wouldn't necessarily need him. Sort of like a cosmic expansion draft
SS Toby Harrah
RF Ruben Sierra
CF Josh Hamilton
LF Juan Gonzalez

SP Charlie Hough
SP Kenny Rogers
SP Kevin Brown

Fourth starter: I've watched most of the Rangers' history, and I don't want any of those guys, frankly. I don't suppose they're entitled to Nolan Ryan or Ferguson Jenkins. (Or Perry or Blyleven or Cliff Lee, for that matter.) Rick Helling? Dick Bosman? I do not want Bobby Witt on any team that is supposed to play in an all-time league :)

Bullpen would be led by Jeff Russell and include Darold Knowles, who was better and pitched longer for Washington than anyone else. Several good options in a DH league, including Frank Howard and Jeff Burroughs.
   84. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4258512)
@82: I didn't mean to limit the Yankees that much. "Played whole career" is too restrictive, obviously, since then Cobb can't play for Detroit, Aaron can't play for the Braves, etc. The Yanks deserve Ruth; it was just a stretch to give them guys like Clemens and Henderson too.
   85. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:19 PM (#4258522)
@80: You left out Arky Vaughn and Fred Clarke.

The Braves:

C Torre
1B Adcock
2B S. Gordon
3B Mathews
SS Maranville
LF Murphy
CF A. Jones
RF Aaron
DH C. Jones
SP Maddux, Smoltz, Niekro, Glavine, Spahn,
RP Bedrosian, Nichols, Willis, Garber, Reed
Bench: Berger, Elliott, Lopez, Carty, Dark, Furcal

Hell of a pitching staff. Kind of weak on offense.
   86. KJOK Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4258523)
Braves

C - J. Torre
1B - McGriff
2B - Cuccinello or Hubbard?
SS - Logan
3B - Mathews
LF - Carty
CF - Berger
RF - Aaron
Reserves - C. Jones, Maranville, Adcock, Justice, Red Smith

SP - Maddux, Spahn, Niekro, Glavine, Willis
P - Smoltz, Garber, Bedrosian, McMahon, Sain
   87. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4258524)
Ok, I'm bored:

Phillies:

C Boone
1B Allen
2B Utley
3B Schmidt
SS Rollins
LF Flick
CF Ashburn
RF Magee
DH Delahanty

SP Carlton, Roberts, Alexander, Bunning, Schilling

RP Konstanty, Simmons, Short, Farrell, McGraw

Bench: Money, Bancroft, Klein, Abreu, Rolen, Daulton
   88. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4258526)
Cleveland:

C Hegan
1B Thome
2B Lajoie
3B Rosen
SS Boudreau
LF Ramirez
CF Doby
RF Colovito
DH Belle
SP Feller, Lemon, Tiant, Joss, Wynn

RP Coveleski, Allen, Harder,
Ferrell, Uhle
Bench: B. Bell, J. Jackson, J. Sewell, Averill, Vizquel, L. Sewell
   89. KJOK Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4258528)
2B S. Gordon

I had Gordon as a Giant and not eligible for my list, but probably a better choice than Cuccinello.

Oh, and Murphy should have been on my reserves list, with Hubbard off the team if he's not in Cuccinello's place.

   90. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4258529)
And since I'd probably set up the Giants a bit differently:

C Bresnahan
1B W. Clark
2B Frisch
3B D. Evans
SS G. Davis
LF Ba. Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ott
DH McCovey
SP Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Perry, Rusie/Lincecum/Cain
RP Wilhelm, Miller, Lavelle, Linzy, Maglie
Bench: Bo. Bonds, Kent, Fletcher, M. Williams, Posey, J. Clark
   91. KJOK Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4258530)
Athletics:

C- Semenick
1B - Allen
2B - Cash
SS - Bowa
3B - Schmidt
LF - Magee
CF - Ashburn
RF - Klein
Reserves - Thomas, Dysktra, Luzinski, Rolen, Cravath, Samuel, Boone

SP - Alexander, Carlton, Roberts, Schilling, C. Simmons
P - McGraw, Reed, M. Williams, Orth, Short

   92. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4258532)
The Giants don't really need Gordon, so it's fair for the Braves to pick him up.
   93. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4258533)
I think 91 is the Phillies.
   94. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4258535)
Royals
C - Mike McFarlane?


Darrell Porter had more WAR in 4 years with the Royals than Macfarlane had in 11, for whatever that's worth.
   95. KJOK Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4258539)
Astros

C - Ashby
1B - Bagwell
2B - Biggio
SS - Menke
3B - Caminiti
LF - Cruz
CF - Wynn
RF - Staub
Reserves - Cedeno, Watson, Garner, Doran, Rader, L. Gonzalez, Cliff Johnson (Backup C!)

SP - Oswalt, Richard, Hampton, Scott, Dierker
P - Wagner, D. Smith, K. Forsch, D. Wilson, J. Niekro

Nolan Ryan goes to the Angels in this scenario...
   96. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4258542)
Did anyone do the Cardinals?

C Simmons
1B Hernandez
2B Hornsby
3B K. Boyer
SS Smith
LF Musial
CF Edmonds
RF Pujols
DH Mize
SP Gibson, Dean, Brecheen, Tudor, Lanier
RP Sutter, T. Worrell, L. McDaniel, L. Jackson, Haines
Bench: Schoendienst, Medwick, Slaughter, Marion, McCarver

Yeah, that's probably cheating on Pujols. If anyone objects, he becomes the DH.

Offense right up there with the Yanks and Giants, infield defense awesome except for Hornsby, but the pitching is weaker than the Giants. Still could be a favorite.
   97. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:40 PM (#4258544)
Astros

C - Ashby
1B - Bagwell
2B - Biggio
SS - Menke
3B - Caminiti
LF - Cruz
CF - Wynn
RF - Staub
Reserves - Cedeno, Watson, Garner, Doran, Rader, L. Gonzalez, Cliff Johnson (Backup C!)

SP - Oswalt, Richard, Hampton, Scott, Dierker
P - Wagner, D. Smith, K. Forsch, D. Wilson, J. Niekro

Nolan Ryan goes to the Angels in this scenario...


Shouldn't Caminiti then go to the Padres?
   98. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:40 PM (#4258545)
Yeah, that's probably cheating on Pujols.

At least play Musial in right and Pujols in left.
   99. KJOK Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4258560)
Shouldn't Caminiti then go to the Padres?

He could, but he had 10 years with Houston vs. only 4 with San Diego. 126 Win Shares vs. 108 with San Diego.
   100. Mefisto Posted: October 07, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4258562)
I wasn't sure Musial had the arm for right, but it's worth it in any case to keep [edit: Hernandez's glove] in the lineup. Deal.
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