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Thursday, April 12, 2012

HHS: Roger Clemens, 1996, and the other unluckiest pitching seasons of all-time

He was alone with terror - and torment! As Johnny Stan Belinda and crew blew 5 Saves for Clemens!

In 1996, Roger Clemens had an offseason by his standards, off enough that it may have been the spur to get him on steroids.  It certainly earned him a ticket out of Boston, off to a new team and a career rebirth in Toronto, and at the time, his departure might not have seemed unwarranted. By traditional metrics, 1996 was but a mediocre prelude for Clemens to winning back-to-back Cy Young awards and going 41-13 with a 2.33 ERA over 1997 and 1998. Clemens went 10-13 with a 3.63 ERA for the Red Sox in 1996, walking the most batters of his career with 106. Pushing 35, he looked to be on the decline, a shell of his once-dominant self.

Clemens did lead the American League in strikeouts in 1996 with 257. And in hindsight, we also know that he led the AL in strikeouts per nine innings with 9.5 and finished second in WAR with 7.7. In fact, it’s one of the best losing seasons for a starting pitcher in baseball history.

One of my colleagues here, Doug, did a post a few days ago on if Matt Cain was the unluckiest pitcher ever. The post got me thinking. Doug looked at Cain’s career numbers compared to other unlucky hurlers, so I decided to take another look and compile some of unluckiest seasons for pitchers in baseball history.

Repoz Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:31 PM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, red sox, sabermetrics

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   1. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4105255)
In 1996, Roger Clemens had an offseason by his standards, off enough that it may have been the spur to get him on steroids.


This makes no sense. If we accept the thrust of McNamee's story -- and McNamee is the only evidence Clemens used steroids -- Clemens started using in 1998, not in 1997. And was a relative novice on the subject when he approached McNamee in mid-June of 1998.

Essentially we're asked to believe that Clemens came off a historic season in 1997 and then, somewhere in the middle of the next season, suddenly decided to use steroids.

I grant that in mid-June of 1998 Clemens was "only" about 7-6, 3.50 ERA (though striking out a batter an inning), and he was lights out thereafter. But any way you slice it, it makes no sense that *1996* was the motivator for Clemens using steroids.

   2. PreservedFish Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4105260)
But any way you slice it, it makes no sense that *1996* was the motivator for Clemens using steroids.


Eh. We have no idea about any of this stuff. Maybe 1996 makes Clemens start thinking about steroids, and he doesn't happen to meet someone with access, who he trusts, until mid 1998.
   3. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4105265)
This situation is reminiscent of the Sorites paradox. Does it make sense for Clemens to have started using steroids on March 12, 1998? No. March 13, 1998? No. March 14, 1998? No. And so on. How could one factor known to the rest of us have been important enough to tip the scale and make him start using steroids? The idea of such a thing is preposterous. And yet, at some point he went from not using steroids, to using steroids. How can this be?
   4. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4105268)
Eh. We have no idea about any of this stuff. Maybe 1996 makes Clemens start thinking about steroids, and he doesn't happen to meet someone with access, who he trusts, until mid 1998.


Maybe. But people should at least inform themselves of what McNamee's story is, and not present this as "Off year in 1996; started using steroids when he went to Toronto and had two great years."

   5. Tom (and his broom) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4105270)
I dunno about unluckiest years but Fernando Valenzuela had the unluckiest month of all time in April 1985...

42ip, 22h, 9bb, 35k, 1 ER 2 wins 3 losses.

The ER was a ninth inning HR by Tony Gwynn in the fifth and final start of the month by Fernando. The Padres beat Fernando 1-0.
   6. DanG Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4105279)
Here's a somewhat different list of unlucky seasons.

Lowest WL% since 1913, minimum 140 IP, 100 ERA+ and 3 pitching WAR

Player             W  L W-LERAWAR    IP Year  Tm Lg
Eddie Smith        4 17 .190  119 3.4 196.2 1937 PHA AL
Lou Brissie        7 19 .269  113 3.6 246.0 1950 PHA AL
Steve Rogers       7 17 .292  117 4.4 230.0 1976 MON NL
Andy Benes         6 14 .300  107 3.7 172.1 1994 SDP NL
Brandon Webb       7 16 .304  129 3.1 208.0 2004 ARI NL
Matt Cain          7 16 .304  123 3.9 200.0 2007 SFG NL
Fernando Arroyo    8 18 .308  103 3.6 209.1 1977 DET AL
Howard Ehmke       9 20 .310  122 3.9 260.2 1925 BOS AL
Al Widmar          7 15 .318  104 3.1 194.2 1950 SLB AL
Dennis Lamp        7 15 .318  122 3.9 223.2 1978 CHC NL
Jim Abbott         7 15 .318  144 5.5 211.0 1992 CAL AL
Murry Dickson     10 20 .333  107 3.1 226.1 1954 PHI NL
Turk Farrell      10 20 .333  124 7.4 241.2 1962 HOU NL
Bruce Berenyi      9 18 .333  110 4.9 222.1 1982 CIN NL
Danny Jackson      9 18 .333  114 3.6 224.0 1987 KCR AL
Gary Ross          8 16 .333  111 3.0 225.0 1976 CAL AL
Nolan Ryan         8 16 .333  142 5.5 211.2 1987 HOU NL
Bucky Walters     11 21 .344  108 3.4 258.0 1936 PHI NL
Ken Chase         10 19 .345  114 3.1 232.0 1939 WSH AL
Steve Carlton     10 19 .345  111 4.6 253.2 1970 STL NL 
   7. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4105295)
Dennis Lamp 7 15 .318 122 3.9 223.2 1978 CHC NL


Yes, but he got paid back with the 11-0 year.
   8. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4105296)
Dan, can you run an opposite list for lucky seasons?
   9. baudib Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4105300)
It was definitely an unlucky season for Clemens. WAR really tells the story as the Red Sox defense was particularly horrible that year.
   10. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4105302)
And yet, at some point he went from not using steroids, to using steroids. How can this be?


It could be that your premise is wrong, and that he never used.

Or it could be that he did use, and he started using for any number of possible reasons, 1996 being one of the unlikelier ones.

But if poor performance qualifies as a reason why he started using, then great performance should qualify as a reason why he _wouldn't_ have started using. But, of course, nobody considers the latter.
   11. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4105305)
Randy Johnson had an 0-4 stretch when he struck out 62 in 40 IP in five starts with a 1.13 ERA in 1999.
   12. DanG Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4105308)
Dan, can you run an opposite list for lucky seasons?
Here's a first pass.

Highest WL% since 1912, minimum 100 IP, ERA+ less than 100 and pitching WAR less than 3.0

Player               W  L W-LERA+  WAR    IP Year  Tm Lg
Paul Abbott         17  4 .810   98  0.9 163.0 2001 SEA AL
Lefty Gomez         24  7 .774   98  2.5 265.1 1932 NYY AL
Jack Bentley        16  5 .762   97  1.5 188.0 1924 NYG NL
Larry Christenson   19  6 .760   99  0.5 219.1 1977 PHI NL
Chuck Dobson        15  5 .750   89 
-0.2 189.0 1971 OAK AL
Russ Meyer          15  5 .750   94 
-0.2 191.1 1953 BRO NL
Dwight Gooden       19  7 .731   98  2.7 232.2 1990 NYM NL
Storm Davis         19  7 .731   85 
-0.3 169.1 1989 OAK AL
Roxie Lawson        18  7 .720   89  0.8 217.1 1937 DET AL
Larry Benton        17  7 .708   93  1.6 233.1 1927 TOT NL
Hooks Dauss         21  9 .700   90  1.2 256.1 1919 DET AL
Joe Saunders        16  7 .696   95  1.6 186.0 2009 LAA AL
Jack Scott          16  7 .696   99  2.1 220.0 1923 NYG NL
Don Gullett         18  8 .692   97  1.7 228.1 1973 CIN NL
Lee Meadows         20  9 .690   98  0.7 226.2 1926 PIT NL
Brett Cecil         15  7 .682   99  2.0 172.2 2010 TOR AL
Milt Wilcox         17  8 .680   98  0.6 193.2 1984 DET AL
Lefty Williams      17  8 .680   90  1.3 230.0 1917 CHW AL
Kevin Tapani        19  9 .679   90  1.8 219.0 1998 CHC NL
Jack Coombs         21 10 .677   94  1.5 262.1 1912 PHA AL 

   13. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4105309)
Thanks.
   14. Darren Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4105326)
That year was just crazy for Clemens. Following him was like a nightmare--you just couldn't believe that he pitched that well and kept losing. Boston's defense was atrocious too, which didn't help.

And yes, the steroids thing is dumb. Clemens could have started using because of his off year in 1996, I guess, but that seems like one of the least likely events to have caused him to do so (only outdone by McNamee's claim). 1993 and 1995 would be much better possibilities, if he did.
   15. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 12, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4105346)
And in hindsight, we also know that he led the AL in strikeouts per nine innings with 9.5


I hate when people write stuff like this, as if they were the geniuses who discovered K/9, as opposed to those neanderthals back in 1996. Of course we knew what Clemens' K/9 was contemporaneously in 1996. I'm pretty sure the Macmillan Encyclopedia listed K/9 ever since its first edition first came out in 1969.
   16. villageidiom Posted: April 12, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4105350)
Eh. We have no idea about any of this stuff. Maybe 1996 makes Clemens start thinking about steroids, and he doesn't happen to meet someone with access, who he trusts, until mid 1998.
He was on the same team as Jose Canseco in 1995 and 1996. Not that that suggests or proves anything; lots of players were on the same team as Jose Canseco at one point or another. But Clemens does seem to trust Canseco, and from what is in the public domain we know Canseco had access.
   17. Darren Posted: April 12, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4105358)
He was on the same team as Jose Canseco in 1995 and 1996. Not that that suggests or proves anything; lots of players were on the same team as Jose Canseco at one point or another. But Clemens does seem to trust Canseco, and from what is in the public domain we know Canseco had access.


And Canseco, who named a billion people who used with him, has not done so with Clemens, and has plenty to gain by doing so. It seems to me that if you go down the Canseco road at all, you need to take it all the way, and when you do, it seems to point to Clemens NOT using.
   18. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 10:23 PM (#4105359)
Yeah, FWIW Canseco swore in an affidavit that he had no knowledge of Clemens using; that he never had a discussion with Clemens wherein Clemens expressed interest in using; that the infamous "meeting" at his party never took place; that Clemens was not even at the party.

Quoting now:

-----------------------

"I have never had a conversation with Clemens in which he expressed any interest in using steroids or human growth hormone," Canseco said in the affidavit. "Clemens has never asked me to give him steroids or human growth hormone, and I have never seen Clemens use, possess or ask for steroids or human growth hormone."

Canseco continued: "I have played on three teams with Roger Clemens and I have no reason to believe that he has ever used steroids, human growth hormone, or any other performance enhancing drugs."

In his affidavit, Canseco said, "I specifically recall that Clemens did not come to the bar-b-que. I remember this because I was disappointed that he did not attend. I later learned that he had a golfing commitment that day and could not attend the party."
   19. Repoz Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4105383)
I'm pretty sure the Macmillan Encyclopedia listed K/9 ever since its first edition first came out in 1969.

They had it for league leaders (top 5) but not on individual breakdowns.
   20. Cris E Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4105388)
Canseco said, "I specifically recall that Clemens did not come to the bar-b-que. I remember this because I was disappointed that he did not attend."

- - dream sequence fade in - -

It seems to me that if you go down the Canseco road at all, you need to take it all the way, and when you do...

- - dream sequence fade out - -

"I later learned that he had a golfing commitment that day and could not attend the party."

Wait, wait, wait, so are you guys saying that Roger paid off Jose, resulting in the golfing explanation? I have so much to learn around here...
   21. baudib Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4105396)
That year was just crazy for Clemens. Following him was like a nightmare--you just couldn't believe that he pitched that well and kept losing. Boston's defense was atrocious too, which didn't help.


Yeah, I was a huge Clemens fan. I had him on my roto team that year, and it was extremely frustrating. I got him again, in a late round, the next year, because I knew he was still great.

Look at the defense on the team: C Stanley/Haselman 1B Vaughn 2B Frye/Cordero SS Valentin 3B Naehring LF Greenwell/Jefferson/Mitchell CF Tinsley/Bragg/Cuyler/Cole/Hosey RF O'Leary/Malave

The other Red Sox starters were Tim Wakefield, Aaron Sele, Tom Gordon, Vaughan Eshelman, Jamie Moyer, all of whom had at least reasonable success in other seasons. Their ERAs for the year: Wakefield 5.14, Gordon 5.59, Sele 5.32, Eshelman 7.08, Moyer 4.50.

   22. DanG Posted: April 13, 2012 at 12:44 AM (#4105407)
OK, here's a second pass on "lucky" seasons. I realized that list in [12] has a couple problems, mainly that it only show pitchers with 15 or more wins, and even at that level it missed those before WW2.

Highest WL% since 1912, minimum 140 IP, 12 Wins and ERA+ less than 96

Player             W L W-LERA+  WAR    IP Year  Tm Lg
Jim Coates        13 3 .813   83 
-1.0 149.1 1960 NYY AL
Ed Wells          12 3 .800   83  0.9 150.2 1930 NYY AL
Bob Wickman       14 4 .778   90 
-0.4 140.0 1993 NYY AL
Ken Holloway      13 4 .765   93  1.0 157.2 1925 DET AL
Chuck Dobson      15 5 .750   89 
-0.2 189.0 1971 OAK AL
Russ Meyer        15 5 .750   94 
-0.2 191.1 1953 BRO NL
Glen Perkins      12 4 .750   95  1.4 151.0 2008 MIN AL
Russ Van Atta     12 4 .750   93  1.4 157.0 1933 NYY AL
Storm Davis       19 7 .731   85 
-0.3 169.1 1989 OAK AL
Ralph Branca      13 5 .722   94  1.0 186.2 1949 BRO NL
Bert Cole         13 5 .722   93  0.1 163.0 1923 DET AL
Roxie Lawson      18 7 .720   89  0.8 217.1 1937 DET AL
Slick Castleman   15 6 .714   94  0.6 173.2 1935 NYG NL
Bullet Joe Bush   15 6 .714   72 
-0.6 200.1 1913 PHA AL
Larry Benton      17 7 .708   93  1.6 233.1 1927 TOT NL
Hooks Dauss       21 9 .700   90  1.2 256.1 1919 DET AL
Eric Milton       14 6 .700   95  1.3 201.0 2004 PHI NL
Byron Houck       14 6 .700   67 
-1.0 176.0 1913 PHA AL
Joe Saunders      16 7 .696   95  1.6 186.0 2009 LAA AL
Dillon Gee        13 6 .684   84  1.6 160.2 2011 NYM NL
Kevin Slowey      13 6 .684   91  0.8 155.2 2010 MIN AL
Mark Gardner      13 6 .684   93  1.4 212.0 1998 SFG NL
James Baldwin     13 6 .684   86 
-0.2 159.0 1998 CHW AL
Johnny Allen      15 7 .682   89  1.6 184.2 1933 NYY AL
Eddie Plank       15 7 .682   91  1.6 185.1 1914 PHA AL 
   23. OCF Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:22 AM (#4105416)
It doesn't meet Dan's list criteria because it's barely 100 IP and only 1.2 WAR, but Anthony Young was 1-16 in 1993 with a 108 ERA+. And Young's entire career is quite something: 460 IP, 100 ERA+, 15-48 record. (Yes, there are quite a few relief appearances in there which mucks things up some, but still ...)

On the flip side, what's the worst Cy Young season (by a starting pitcher) that you can think of? I checked a couple of obvious candidates: Pete Vuckovich 114 ERA+, 2.7 WAR; LaMarr Hoyt 115 ERA+, 3.7 WAR.

Oh, and then there is the slightly different flavor of luck enjoyed by Bob Welch in his legendary season: getting 33 decisions in only 238 IP, and 27-6 on 126 ERA+.
   24. Ron J Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:52 AM (#4105425)
#23 Vukovich had a WHIP of 1.5 that year. Or a .275/.354/.385 line against.

That batting line would have been good for an OPS+ of about 115 (Milwaukee was a very good pitcher's park to boot) As a side bonus, he gave up 32 SB, but with 16 CS he pretty much broke even on high activity. The story of Ted Simmons as a catcher.

Still no evidence (either way) about clutch pitchers, but Vukovich meets many definitions of clutch that year. He put a ton of runners on base and did a great job of stranding them.

.258/.331/.340 with runners on. .227/.315/.327 with RISP.

Oh yeah, the bullpen also did a really good job with the runners they inherited from him. (That's clutch too right? Clutch judgment I guess)
   25. James Newburg is in awe of Cespedes' CORE STRENGTH Posted: April 13, 2012 at 07:47 AM (#4105436)
Steve Bedrosian, 1987: 151 ERA+, 2.5 WAR, yet won because the other starters had unimpressive traditional stats. Hershiser was the best pitcher in the NL (7.5 WAR), but wasn't going to get the Cy Young because he went 16-16.

BTW, Hershiser really got screwed by the Dodgers offense from 1987-1989. Deserved to win the Cy Young each of those three years, yet could only muster a .500 record outside of 1988. Give him three Cys and he's in the Hall of Fame. As it is, he's the HOF candidate that people think Jack Morris is.
   26. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 07:51 AM (#4105437)
Oh, and then there is the slightly different flavor of luck enjoyed by Bob Welch in his legendary season: getting 33 decisions in only 238 IP, and 27-6 on 126 ERA+.


And got the Cy Young over Clemens, who went 21-6 with a 1.93 ERA (213 ERA+) with much better K/BB numbers and 9.5 WAR...

Of course, 11 years later, Clemens went 20-3 and got Mussina's Cy Young.
   27. dlf Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:10 AM (#4105441)
Of course, 11 years later, Clemens went 20-3 and got Mussina's Cy Young.


And 18-4 to pick up Randy Johnson's award in '04. Clemens probably won about as many CYAs as he should have, but got some in years he shouldn't while missing out on others he should have received.
   28. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4105445)
the list is #6 is missing Luis Tiant, 1969:
9-20 101 ERA+
   29. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:52 AM (#4105450)
I'm pretty sure the Macmillan Encyclopedia listed K/9 ever since its first edition first came out in 1969.

They had it for league leaders (top 5) but not on individual breakdowns.


Do you still have yours? I had two editions of it, but have no idea where they are now...
   30. Ron J Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4105482)
#29 Mine didn't make it through a move. The only reason I even had one is that my grandfather picked one up cheap because it had been bound back to front.
   31. DanG Posted: April 13, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4105508)
the list is #6 is missing Luis Tiant, 1969:
9-20 101 ERA+
But he had less than 3 pitching WAR, only 2.8.

Actually, there is one slight addendum to the list in [6]: it should say ERA+ greater than 100; otherwise 1988 Pete Smith would be listed.
   32. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4105622)

Ben Sheets 2004 - 237 IP, 162 ERA+, 264-32 K-BB ratio, 12-14 record and gets one third-place CYA vote.

   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4105629)
#27, Indeed, Clemens won 7 Cy Youngs, and led the league in WAR 7 times. Though not all the same years.
   34. JPWF1313 Posted: April 13, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4105657)
Different list, 1947 to present, comparing BBREF WAR to W-L record (ranked by fibbonacci winpoints)

Player Year W L WAR
Rk Player Year W  L WAR
1 Turk Farrell 1962 10 
20 7.4
2 Phil Niekro 1977 16 
20 8.5
3 Jim Abbott 1992 7 
15 5.5
4 Dave Roberts 1971 14 
17 8.5
5 Nolan Ryan 1987 8 
16 5.5
6 Jon Matlack 1974 13 
15 8.6
7 Roger Clemens 1996 10 
13 7.7
8 Ned Garver 1950 13 
18 7.1
9 Bruce Berenyi 1982 9 
18 4.9
10 Steve Carlton 1970 10 
19 4.6
11 David Cone 1993 11 
14 6.6
12 Terry Forster 1973 6 
11 5
13 Chris Short 1967 9 
11 6.6
14 Bert Blyleven 1976 13 
16 6.7
15 Tommy John 1970 12 
17 5.7
16 Denny Lemaster 1968 10 
15 5.3
17 Jim Bunning 1960 11 
14 6.2
18 R
.ADickey 2011 8 13 4.9
19 Phil Niekro 1978 19 
18 9.1
20 Warren Spahn 1952 14 
19 5.8 
   35. Repoz Posted: April 13, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4105668)
Do you still have yours? I had two editions of it, but have no idea where they are now...

Yup...and still in the hardened NASA reflector approved box.
   36. JPWF1313 Posted: April 13, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4105676)
career:
Rk Player  W  L WAR
1 Mariano Rivera  75 
58 56.3
2 Bert Blyleven  287 
250 90.1
3 Phil Niekro  318 
274 96.8
4 Bob Friend  197 
230 48.9
5 Gaylord Perry  314 
265 96.3
6 Lee Smith  71 
92 30.3
7 Trevor Hoffman  61 
75 30.8
8 Ned Garver  129 
157 35.8
9 Bob Rush  127 
152 36.1
10 Rick Reuschel  214 
191 66.3
11 Nolan Ryan  324 
292 84.8
12 Ken Raffensberger  119 
154 28.4
13 Tom Candiotti  151 
164 41
14 Robin Roberts  286 
245 80.9
15 Larry Jackson  194 
183 55.6
16 Nap Rucker  134 
134 41.7
17 Mike Morgan  141 
186 26
18 Jerry Koosman  222 
209 58.8
19 Jack Russell  85 
141 13.1
20 Jon Matlack  125 
126 38.7 

Obviously the relievers don't really belong
and the luckiest
980 Jack Morris  254 186 39.3
981 Burleigh Grimes  270 
212 37.2
982 Sam Leever  194 
100 40.3
983 Andy Pettitte  240 
138 49.9
984 John Clarkson  328 
178 82.1
985 Chief Bender  212 
127 38.5
986 Deacon Phillippe  189 
109 33
987 Jesse Tannehill  197 
117 34
988 Mickey Welch  307 
210 56.5
989 Freddie Fitzsimmons  217 
146 32.6
990 Allie Reynolds  182 
107 29
991 Lew Burdette  203 
144 25.3
992 Bob Caruthers  218 
99 52.6
993 Art Nehf  184 
120 23.1
994 Herb Pennock  241 
162 36.9
995 Dave McNally  184 
119 21.5
996 Whitey Ford  236 
106 55.3
997 Larry Corcoran  177 
89 28.8
998 Christy Mathewson  373 
188 87.7
999 Bobby Mathews  297 
248 16.1 
   37. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4105720)
It doesn't meet Dan's list criteria because it's barely 100 IP and only 1.2 WAR, but Anthony Young was 1-16 in 1993 with a 108 ERA+. And Young's entire career is quite something: 460 IP, 100 ERA+, 15-48 record. (Yes, there are quite a few relief appearances in there which mucks things up some, but still ...)

Young is pretty famous (at least to Mets fans) for having the record for consecutive losses with 27. Yes, he had a stretch of 171 innings during 1992-1993 over which he went 0-27.

He wasn't a good pitcher over that time period, but he certainly wasn't an 0-27 pitcher (first off, just getting 27 decisions over 171 innings is impressive in its own right). 99 K, 60 BB, 13 HR are decent peripherals, and his ERA of 4.36 would have been good for an 86 ERA+. He did allow a lot of unearned runs (5.41 RA) but even that should get you an occasional win (hell, Roy Halladay went 4-7 in his 10.64 ERA season).

From Wikipedia: During the losing streak, Young converted 12 straight save opportunities and threw 23 2?3 consecutive scoreless innings while filling in for the Mets closer, John Franco. During the streak, Young was 0–14 as a starter and 0–13 as a reliever.

   38. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4105776)
Clemens probably won about as many CYAs as he should have, but got some in years he shouldn't while missing out on others he should have received.


I'm amused when this happens -- when writers are "right", but for all the wrong reasons.
   39. OCF Posted: April 13, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4106230)
A list of mine - not as comprehensive as post #36. These are pitchers who had good enough careers to be worth mentioning in a Hall of Merit thread, or at least worth studying to see whether they'd be worth mentioning in such a thread. I've computed an RA+ equivalent record (with number of decisions based on IP, on a year-by-year basis. I've converted these records into Fibonacci Win Points, then sorted by the greatest difference. This method does not account either for defensive support, or for the pitcher's own offensive contributions. I've added (*) beside cases that seem to deserve a particularly large adjustment for one or the other of those reasons. The list isn't the same as the posts above, but some of the same people appear on both.

Here's one end of the scale:

Christy Mathewson: actual 373-188, RA+ 332-199
Whitey Ford: actual 236-106, RA+ 218-134
Bob Lemon: actual 207-128, RA+ 176-141 (*)
Herb Pennock: actual 241-162, RA+ 216-181
Dwight Gooden: actual 194-112, RA+ 174-137
Jack Morris: actual 254-186, RA+ 226-199 (yeah, him)
Burleigh Grimes: actual 270-212, RA+ 242-222
Fred Fitsimmons: actual 217-146, RA+ 195-163
Juan Marichal: actual 243-142, RA+ 226-164
Carl Mays: actual 207-126, RA+ 189-146
Clark Griffith: actual 236-143, RA+ 216-160
... skipping to just post-1960 cases ...
Bob Forsch: actual 168-136, RA+ 153-157
Dave Stewart: actual 168-129, RA+ 149-143
Mike Cuellar: actual 185-130, RA+ 167-144
Catfish Hunter: actual 224-166, RA+ 206-178

Now, starting from the other end of the scale. Hoyt Wilhelm would be the most extreme case, and several other relief pitchers land here; I've omitted them on the grounds that W-L just doesn't work for relievers.

Bert Blyleven: actual 287-250, RA+ 322-230 (yeah, him)
Walter Johnson: actual 417-279, RA+ 427-230 (and you already thought he was good)
Bob Friend: actual 197-230, RA+ 212-190
Ned Garver: actual 129-157, RA+ 149-126
Jack Powell: actual 244-256, RA+ 263-225
Dizzy Trout: actual 170-161, RA+ 179-125 (*)
Murry Dickson: actual 172-181, RA+ 183-156
Eppa Rixie: actual 266-251, RA+ 275-224
Gaylord Perry: actual 314-265, RA+ 337-258 (see Marichal for contrast)
Dolf Luque: actual 193-179, RA+ 203-154
Vic Willis: actual 248-208, RA+ 258-186 (*)
Bobo Newsom: actual 211-222, RA+ 220-197
Robin Roberts: actual 286-245, RA+ 295-226
Jerry Koosman: actual 222-209, RA+ 233-193
Tom Seaver: actual 311-205, RA+ 330-201

   40. OCF Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:43 PM (#4106256)
Looking at JPWF1313's second list, the "lucky" list, I see John Clarkson, Mickey Welch, Bob Caruthers, Bobby Mathews, et al. Personally, I don't trust any attempt to use the same statistical ideas or methods with pre-1893 pitching. I just don't know what to do with that. If you take out those names from the "lucky" list and all the relief pitchers from the "unlucky" list, our lists look quite a bit more alike.

Some of the other names on his "unlucky" list, in my terms:

Phil Neikro: actual 318-274, RA+ 334-266. Yes, unlucky.
Rick Reuschel: actual 214-191, RA+ 221-174. Yes, unlucky.
Nolan Ryan: actual 342-292, RA+ 326-273. Hmm: got lots of "extra" decisions, doesn't seem unlucky to me.
Larry Jackson: actual 194-183, RA+ 200-162. Yes, unlucky.

I didn't work up Candiotti, Morgan, or Matlack. But another worth mentioning:

Bob Gibson: actual 251-174, RA+ 265-166. Unlucky, and that's with being a good hitter himself.
   41. Shredder Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4106265)
Man, as if Jim Abbot werent unlucky enough to be born with one hand, fate just really screwed him in 1992.
   42. Howie Menckel Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4106290)

damn you, shredder, for taking an Abbott line from me

underhanded move, imo

   43. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4106363)
Abbot's was interviewed recently on Center Stage with Michael Kay on YES, for those interested.

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