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Monday, September 03, 2012

Holmes: Davey Johnson’s success strengthens Hall of Fame credentials

Winful Davey: Notorious rogue manager.

As Johnson continues to add to his record he starts to make a case for the Hall of Fame as a manager. He has posted winning records with five different franchises. If the Nats make the playoffs, he will have taken four different teams to the post-season. He’s won Manager of the Year twice and won 100 games twice. In his 13 full seasons he will have finished first or second 12 times and had a winning record in 12 of them. He will have won 90 games or more seven times (and that doesn’t include two years shortened by strikes where his teams were on pace to win well above 90). No other manager in history has brought four different franchises to the playoffs.

In his managerial career he’s won 56% of his games, a rate that ranks in 10th all-time among managers with at least 1,000 victories. His winning percentage is higher than that of Hall of Fame managers Walter Alston, Sparky Anderson, and Tommy Lasorda. It’s higher than that of Bobby Cox.

Johnson has worn out his welcome in a few of his stops, but he’s done the one thing manager’s are hired to do above all else – win.

That’s something Davey Johnson seems to do out of habit.

Repoz Posted: September 03, 2012 at 11:24 AM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, history, mets, nats

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   1. BDC Posted: September 03, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4225496)
No other manager in history has brought four different franchises to the playoffs

Didn't Billy Martin do this? Or am I hallucinating, which is possible. As with Martin, it's a double-edged distinction; you have to get fired often to obtain it. Also, playoffs have kept expanding during Johnson's career.

No manager has reached the HOF with only one pennant – not even two pennants – without a much better playing career than Johnson. So it's true that if he wins a pennant, or better still a Series, this year, he makes a huge step towards the Hall.

Edit: Dick Williams managed four different franchises to the postseason, too. Perhaps there are others.
Second Edit: I guess Al Lopez didn't have a better playing career than Johnson. Nor did Wilbert Robinson. They did have the two pennants apiece, of course.
   2. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: September 03, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4225512)
Dusty Baker has a chance to win his second pennant with a different franchise this year. He's already led three different franchises to the playoffs.
   3. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: September 03, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4225527)
He has the good hybrid player/manager numbers to be considered; but I agree he needs another WS as a manager. If he overcomes the steroid test for that 1973 season
   4. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: September 03, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4225568)
Didn't Billy Martin do this? Or am I hallucinating, which is possible. As with Martin, it's a double-edged distinction; you have to get fired often to obtain it. Also, playoffs have kept expanding during Johnson's career.

True - Martin led the Twins, Tigers, Yankees & A's to the postseason. (Actually, two of those were partially caused by labor strikes. The '81 A's had the weird split season, and hte '72 Tigers won by a half-game - with the half-game advantage coming as a result of the lost games at the start of the year).

Edit: Dick Williams managed four different franchises to the postseason, too. Perhaps there are others.

This is not true. Williams managed the A's, Red Sox, and Padres in the postseason, but the Expos fired him in Sept. 1981. The Angels & Mariners never came close under him.

Second Edit: I guess Al Lopez didn't have a better playing career than Johnson. Nor did Wilbert Robinson. They did have the two pennants apiece, of course.

Al Lopez also had 10 straight years finishing first or second in an 8-team league. Robinson is easily the worst pick for a manager in Cooperstown.
   5. BDC Posted: September 03, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4225616)
Ah, fair enough, I missed the Williams firing, Chris. Most of the way there, for Williams, then :)

   6. AndrewJ Posted: September 03, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4225808)
Robinson is easily the worst pick for a manager in Cooperstown.

True, his HOF credentials are shaky -- he was just one of those guys universally beloved by the fans and the press of his day (when he managed Brooklyn, after all, they were popularly called the Robins), plus he was part of the legendary Orioles teams of the 1890s. And he was the ballplayer who caught the grapefruit thrown from the airplane.

He was enshrined in 1945, when the Old-Timers Committee went a little hog wild and elected 10 men: Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Hughie Jennings, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke and Uncle Robbie. From that list, IMHO, only Delahanty and Kelly (and possibly Collins) were really inner-circle immortals.
   7. zack Posted: September 04, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4226092)
Davey is unusual in getting fired despite continuing success in most cases. I know with Schott and Angelos he had personal conflicts with them. What's the story? Did he lose the clubhouse in any of those cases, or is he just a pain in the ass to management?
   8. Chris Fluit Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4226106)
This came up in another thread but clashing with Schott and Angelos should be a feather in his cap, not a demerit. Those are two of the worst owners of the past 40 years.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4226107)
Davey is unusual in getting fired despite continuing success in most cases. I know with Schott and Angelos he had personal conflicts with them. What's the story? Did he lose the clubhouse in any of those cases, or is he just a pain in the ass to management?


Davey has never had a problem in the clubhouse. Since his Mets days ended, his primary problem was picking really bad people to work for. Not only were Schott and Angelos the wrong kind of owners for Davey, but he also clashed with Kevin Malone when the Sheriff was running things in LA. I suspect Washington is a much better fit.
   10. Ron J2 Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4226110)
#7 I've never heard of Johnson losing a clubhouse. That said, I'm pretty sure Mets management thought the team was underperforming in 1990 and that a new manager was required to get more from their players.
   11. zack Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4226122)
#10, right, the Mets were the exception to his usual pattern, and not-coincidentally, by far his longest tenure.

Johnson has the great winning percentage for a modern manager in part because he was rarely given the chance to lose, but I'd support him as HOF. You might normally lose points for being unmanageable, but you kind of gain points when your managers are as the french call les incompétents.

I'm not sure he'll get much support because Larussa, Cox and maybe Torre will probably suck all the mangerial HOF interest for awhile.
   12. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4226123)
Schott opposed that Davey Johnson was living with a woman he wasn't married with, if I recall correctly. Also, once upon a time she'd promised Ray Knight the job managing the Reds and Knight was available. So out went Johnson.
   13. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 04, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4226146)
chris

that is correct. that and davey telling marge to keep her godd8mn dog from sh8tting on the field. that didn't go over well.
   14. zonk Posted: September 04, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4226156)
Is there a Keltner List equivalent for managers?

I think Johnson is borderline - if the Nats win the NL, which looks strongly possible, I'd be inclined to vote him in.
   15. Chris Fluit Posted: September 04, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4226184)
He's borderline right now- sitting with Leyland and Piniella somewhere behind the big three of Larussa, Torre and Cox. However, if he has a period of sustained success with the Nationals, he could move up and into the discussion. As the lead states, he's strenghtening his HoF credentials but I don't think he's there yet.
   16. bookbook Posted: September 04, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4226637)
I don't care if he goes in the HOF. I was hoping the M's would hire him for the last five years.
   17. Wahoo Sam Posted: September 18, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4239546)
Thanks for sharing this story on BTF. I like reading the comments.
   18. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 18, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4239664)
Schott opposed that Davey Johnson was living with a woman he wasn't married with, if I recall correctly.
You are correct; he later married her.
Also, once upon a time she'd promised Ray Knight the job managing the Reds and Knight was available. So out went Johnson.
Right; she announced the season before he was fired that it would be his last season, and hired Knight as his bench coach with the understanding that Knight would take over. Schott was rather, uh, erratic.
   19. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 18, 2012 at 10:05 PM (#4239699)
Schott was rather, uh, erratic.

she was good at first, but then she went too far

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