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Tuesday, March 14, 2017

How discrimination keeps Haitians out of MLB

Baseball is not popular in Haiti itself, but as many as a million ethnic Haitians live in the neighboring Dominican Republic, where the game is ubiquitous. As the chicken waits on the table, Sano and Franklin Johnson Mateo, who serves as Sano’s adviser and facilitator, shout out examples of former and current MLB players who likely share their Haitian ancestry. They rattle off seven or eight names. The total number, Sano and Mateo agree, would shock most observers.

Many big leaguers from the Dominican, including some who are being mentioned in Sano’s living room, choose to keep their backgrounds a secret. Some ethnic Haitians go so far as to actually alter their identities on the way to the majors.

“I didn’t have to change my name, but there are so many that do,” Felix Pie, a former big league outfielder and Haitian Dominican, had told me.

Players need birth certificates to sign with a major league team and obtain a visa. Haitians in the Dominican Republic often lack them, so a player might change his identity to get the necessary documentation. Others do it to make themselves appear younger, or simply to avoid the rampant prejudice against Haitians in the country. “Dominicans make fun of Haitians,” Mateo says. “Some people feel ashamed about being Haitian.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 04:26 PM | 91 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dominican republic, haiti

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   1. crict Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:24 PM (#5417417)
Highly recommended read. I learned a lot.
   2. madvillain Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:43 PM (#5417424)
“Dominicans make fun of Haitians,” Mateo says. “Some people feel ashamed about being Haitian.”


Now that is a sad commentary.

I RTFA, worth a read, but IMO not really surprising. I do like how clearly the author felt the need to inform the readers wrt Haiti and the DR sharing Hispaniola. History and Geography: learn it.
   3. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:45 PM (#5417427)
Steve King was RIGHT!
   4. SteveM. Posted: March 14, 2017 at 07:57 PM (#5417429)
This hardly surprising. The two countries speak different languages, have different customs and cultures. Plus, Haiti invaded and controlled the D.R. from 1822 to 1844.There is a long tradition of hostility.
   5. Tin Angel Posted: March 14, 2017 at 08:28 PM (#5417439)
Great article.
   6. depletion Posted: March 14, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5417475)
The interesting part of the article to me was how people with "unclear" or somehow illegitimate birth certificates are not considered "real people" in the so-called civilized world. There are a lot of people on earth who are not born into a government paperwork system. In the US there might be ways of rectifying this situation, but probably not in a lot of other places.
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5417487)
The interesting part of the article to me was how people with "unclear" or somehow illegitimate birth certificates are not considered "real people" in the so-called civilized world. There are a lot of people on earth who are not born into a government paperwork system. In the US there might be ways of rectifying this situation, but probably not in a lot of other places.

There's a long history of animosity and downright hatred between these countries. Haiti brutally occupied the Dominican Republic for 40 years in the 19th century. It has very little to do with paperwork, and a lot to do with the fact that Dominicans don't like Haitians.
   8. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 14, 2017 at 10:50 PM (#5417505)
I've been to both places a number of times and have friends in the DR.

The DR is a nice, civilized, well-mannered place; Haiti is a nothing but a cesspool of crime and violence. The DR has educated people who succeed. Meanwhile Haitians are predominantly uneducated, criminal, and/or corrupt. Dominicans HATE Haitians, they absolutely despise them.

It's not about racism; some Dominicans are as African as you can get. It's about civilization vs barbarism. Plus the Haitians have no one to blame for destroying their country but themselves: they have periodically slaughtered anyone with an education or who was successful.

My Dominican friend Martin once called Haiti "the Zimbabwe of the Caribbean." It's a valid comparison. Don't blame the DR for being hateful; blame the Haitians for being so damned awful.
   9. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 14, 2017 at 10:53 PM (#5417507)
Also, the Dominican Republic is far wealthier than Haiti, so I'd imagine there's a certain level of "these poor foreigners are disrespecting our borders and stealing our jobs" attitude as well.
   10. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 14, 2017 at 10:56 PM (#5417509)
YMMV, but I find it difficult to blame most Haitians for having been born into a horribly screwed up country. They've had governments that have been inept, brutal, vicious, corrupt, and just plain dumb, and I'm not sure there's anyone on earth who can fix the place anytime soon.

I'll be happy to blame the Duvaliers et al. But the regular Jean-Pauls? They're just trying to eat, man.
   11. madvillain Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5417513)
Steve King was RIGHT!


MLB should probably be thanking all those brown babies in the carib.
   12. crict Posted: March 14, 2017 at 11:13 PM (#5417515)
The interesting part of the article to me was how people with "unclear" or somehow illegitimate birth certificates are not considered "real people" in the so-called civilized world.


Purely from a baseball standpoint, it's also quite sad to read that an extremely talented player with no or unclear birth certificate has basically no shot at ever signing a MLB contract.
   13. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:31 AM (#5417528)
I find it difficult to blame most Haitians for having been born into a horribly screwed up country.


Haitians are descended from black racists who mass murdered, with accompanying terrible atrocities, all whites and mulattos they could find. Men, women and children, unspeakably. Not just once, either. Repeatedly.

I have zero sympathy for the descendants of such filth. The Haitians literally mass murdered their way to where they are today by making sure that they murdered everyone with any culture or education.

Would you have the same sympathy for them if they were descended from mass murdering white racists? I doubt it. No one had any sympathy at all for late twentieth century white South Africans or Rhodesians; they were universally condemned. Yet they were only guilty of the same thing: being "born into a horribly screwed up country."
   14. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:36 AM (#5417529)
Purely from a baseball standpoint, it's also quite sad to read that an extremely talented player with no or unclear birth certificate has basically no shot at ever signing a MLB contract.


Legally, MLB and MLBPA absolutely must know who they really are, how old they really are, and what their citizenship status actually is. And falsifying any of that is major fraud. There are laws and rules in this world, and only fools and the evil flout them.
   15. madvillain Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:41 AM (#5417531)
OTP THREAD ---> (near top)
   16. WSPanic Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:07 AM (#5417538)
Haitians are descended from black racists who mass murdered, with accompanying terrible atrocities, all whites and mulattos they could find. Men, women and children, unspeakably. Not just once, either. Repeatedly.

I have zero sympathy for the descendants of such filth. The Haitians literally mass murdered their way to where they are today by making sure that they murdered everyone with any culture or education.

Would you have the same sympathy for them if they were descended from mass murdering white racists? I doubt it. No one had any sympathy at all for late twentieth century white South Africans or Rhodesians; they were universally condemned. Yet they were only guilty of the same thing: being "born into a horribly screwed up country."


You act as if the late 20th century South Africans are generations away from the South Africans we all know and love today. People condemmend Apartheid for what it was, but to say the world vilified the South Africans as a whole is just wrong headed. Like everything else you've said in this thread. You are hateful little man.
   17. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:51 AM (#5417540)
#16 I'm an honest one. Two of my friends are South African. They were discriminated against despite having done nothing themselves, just like the current Haitians are. No one had any sympathy for them.

And you are very stupid and ignorant.
   18. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:55 AM (#5417541)
And if anyone doubts the truth about the racist mass murders by the Haitians, look it up. It's an ugly, true story about how to destroy a nation's future by racist violence. You will discover Haiti once produced half of the sugar consumed in Europe and was considered to be a prize.

Of course that all went away after the massacres.
   19. Khrushin it bro Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:17 AM (#5417543)
Quit Haitin bro
   20. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 05:09 AM (#5417548)

I know several white South Africans who are old enough to have grown up under apartheid -- they are extremely successful professionals and their background has not been an obstacle to their advancement in the U.S. in any way that I have been able to see.
   21. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 05:59 AM (#5417550)
Haitians are descended from black racists who mass murdered, with accompanying terrible atrocities, all whites and mulattos they could find. Men, women and children, unspeakably. Not just once, either. Repeatedly.

I have zero sympathy for the descendants of such filth.


It certainly was unwise of those children to have chosen such unsuitable parents, then.

This is, in all seriousness, a disgusting thing to say, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Assuming that you have the capacity to feel shame, of course.

Would you have the same sympathy for them if they were descended from mass murdering white racists? I doubt it. No one had any sympathy at all for late twentieth century white South Africans or Rhodesians; they were universally condemned. Yet they were only guilty of the same thing: being "born into a horribly screwed up country."


In general, people didn't have sympathy for white South Africans in the late 20th century because, by and large, they worked to preserve and perpetuate a codified system of legal discrimination against black South Africans. People don't blame them for being the descendants of "mass murdering white racists" - they blame them for allowing the systemic inequities to continue even after they grew up and became aware of the problem.

There are exceptions, of course. There were white South Africans who did the right thing, like Harry Schwarz and his supporters, and they are deservedly immune from such criticism. As are minor children, since only a total ####### ####### would blame a little kid for the sins of his or her parents.
   22. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:08 AM (#5417562)
Oops. This isn't the OTP thread. (I think.)
   23. Covfefe Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:19 AM (#5417564)
Cargo really glosses over the history of Haiti --

The of the matter is Haiti was born of a slave revolt that gained its 'independence' but not really it's sovereignty in any real sense for nearly a century. While the US was gaining its independence with the help of France and Spain, Haiti's independence came while tossing French shackles... and then Spanish shackles... and then repelling British attempts to seize it.

This was followed by a nearly a century of the hemispheric power due north not even recognizing its independence for nearly a century, before doing so only because late-arrival to the imperial game Germany set its sights on Haiti (and other Caribbean outposts)... Germany settled for what amounted to international shakedown money, followed by the US occupying Haiti - where we hardly covered ourselves in democratic or humanitarian glory - and then 'helping' Haiti restructure its 'debts'.... This was then followed by Rafael Trujillo's Dominican dictatorship engaging in genocide against the Haitians - paying back that which occurred in the other direction and then some more than a century prior.

The immediately following period - the first time Haiti had any real national sovereignty, despite becoming 'independent' a century and half prior - was unfortunately the Papa Doc and Baby Doc period of rule... and that brings us to the modern era (Aristide/Preval/etc).

Haiti certainly hasn't covered itself in glory on its own accord -- but that doesn't change the fact that Haiti has a pretty good case to be ranked as the most ###### over of any nation by all manner of sundry other nations for a good 2+ centuries.

If Haiti were a human being, you could say it was born of a rape, dumped in a dumpster, somehow managed to scavenge and steal enough to feed itself, got passed through a successive line of bad foster homes that alternately shook him down for money, brutalized him, (or usually both) then tossed him into the street... it would hardly be a surprise that such a person becomes the national equivalent of a petty street punk and the few halting attempts to "go straight" were only that.

Pretending that the history of Haiti is solely born of Haiti misbehaving is hardly the whole story... For nearly half its history as an independent nation - it was an international pariah, essentially cut off from international trade and the community of nations, because none of the powers that had sought to rule it nor its growing independent neighbor to the north were all that comfortable with an independent nation that was basically born of a slave revolt. To be sure - its epochs of mass murder certainly make it easier to overlook that fact - but let's not pretend that if say, Toussaint Louverture had lived or the course of early leadership had been different - that either the European powers or the United States would have welcomed the western hemisphere's second independent nations into the world.

EDIT: And just for the record, none of this is to say that the answer is for the first world nations dump penance money on Haiti... Haiti certainly gets straightened out most and best only when Haitians are able to straighten out the country. I'm just saying...
   24. BDC Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:32 AM (#5417572)
The black political activists are justly more famous, but one of the greatest literary eras in any country is that of white anti-apartheid South African writers. Alan Paton, Athol Fugard, Nadine Gordimer, JM Coetzee, André Brink, Elsa Joubert, James McClure, Christopher Hope. They made the world conscious of apartheid as lived.

To connect to sports ... Coetzee is, or was as a kid, obsessed with cricket & its stats. If there had been such a thing as SSACRmetrics when he was growing up he'd have been in his mother's basement posting on CTF.
   25. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:33 AM (#5417574)
Anyone interested in the history of Haiti's independence and who likes podcasts should really listen to season 4 of the Revolutions podcast. Suffice to say, zonk's take is basically right whereas Cargo Cultist once again reveals himself to be an awful human being.

Also, no one in this thread has brought up the fact that the Dominican stripped citizenship from Dominicans of Haitian descent who were born after the 1920s. Which CC is fully defending in his posts.
   26. Morty Causa Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5417579)
The interesting part of the article to me was how people with "unclear" or somehow illegitimate birth certificates are not considered "real people" in the so-called civilized world. There are a lot of people on earth who are not born into a government paperwork system. In the US there might be ways of rectifying this situation, but probably not in a lot of other places.

That's a good point. When you think about it, and do even cursory research, you realize that government record-keeping wrt birth is a fairly recent thing, and even so, not everyone has been born in a setting which mandated reporting births to a government institution. For instance, in the USA, many were not born in a hospital or delivered by a doctor (both of which would have reported a birth to the state) until well into the 20th century.

However, if that is the case, birth can be established by other means. The Social Security Administration is a model here. It has elaborate protocols and procedure wrt proving birth and age. First, you go with a birth record that was made at the time of the birth. But if there are no original state birth records, the next best thing is the baptismal records of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church keeps very good records, and since baptisms occur soon after birth, Social Security after prolonged studies actually considers them to be on an equal footing with state birth records. From there you work down to census records, school records, other church records. (A problem comes in when the sources contradict each other in some way.)
   27. Covfefe Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:48 AM (#5417581)
That's a good point. When you think about it, and do even cursory research, you realize that government record-keeping wrt birth is a fairly recent thing, and even so, not everyone has been born in a setting which mandated reporting births to a government institution. For instance, in the USA, many were not born in a hospital or delivered by a doctor (both of which would have reported a birth to the state) until well into the 20th century.

However, if that is the case, birth can be established by other means. The Social Security Administration is a model here. It has elaborate protocols and procedure wrt proving birth and age. First, you go with a birth record that was made at the time of the birth. But if there are no original state birth records, the next best thing is the baptismal records of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church keeps very good records, and since baptisms occur soon after birth, Social Security after prolonged studies actually considers them to be on an equal footing with state birth records. From there you work down to census records, school records, other church records. (A problem comes in when the sources contradict each other in some way.)


Even then, though -- it does still happen in America...

This was a recent case - but others occasionally pop-up in the news every now and again... born at home to a midwife who either didn't or 'forgot' to file a record of birth, no social security number or other filings, and now an adult not even able to get documentation to prove she exists.
   28. Rickey! No. You move. Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:49 AM (#5417582)
Would you have the same sympathy for them if they were descended from mass murdering white racists?


Yes. Normal, moral people don't hold the sins of the fathers against the sons and daughters. You, of course, have no concept of that. Because you're an immoral turd who fails every basic test of humanity.
   29. DL from MN Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5417583)
I thought Jared Diamond had some insight into Haiti/Dominican Republic in Collapse

https://www.theglobalist.com/haiti-and-the-dominican-republic-one-island-two-worlds/

Haiti has the lowest agricultural productivity on the island which makes it harder to feed everyone. They started with a larger population due to imported slave labor despite having less land and compounded the problem with Catholicism. Haiti also gets battered by earthquakes and hurricanes at above average rates. The geography sucks. You can't "fix" Haiti without coming up with a sustainable way to feed and house the people. The best solution is probably to let a large portion settle elsewhere.

The people of the Dominican Republic know that they can't support all the Dominicans plus all the Haitians but the Haitians cross over illegally out of desperation.
   30. DL from MN Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:52 AM (#5417584)
The Catholic Church keeps very good records, and since baptisms occur soon after birth.... (A problem comes in when the sources contradict each other in some way.)


Like my wife's uncle who was "renamed" by the priest on his baptismal record. They only found that out when applying for Social Security.
   31. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5417605)
Normal, moral people don't hold the sins of the fathers against the sons and daughters.


Well that should make the college admissions process more efficient.
   32. Morty Causa Posted: March 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5417647)
Like my wife's uncle who was "renamed" by the priest on his baptismal record. They only found that out when applying for Social Security.

That can happen with official civil recordings, too. In my experience, it's often the result of record keeper person not understanding the illiterate, especially the illiterate who speaks a language different from the recorder. How could that illiterate person correct the recorder?

27:

I don't know about that case. Many states don't have, or didn't have until very recently, a law that required that a birth be filed.
It will be done automatically if the child was born in a hospital and/or delivered by a doctor, but that isn't required either. And at one time the Social Security Adm. refused to issue numbers and cards for infants unless necessary to obtain benefits with that administration. You couldn't get it just for ID purposes. As for homeschooling, again, I don't know: that has to be approved by the state, and periodic reporting and testing is mandated. And both in general law and in administrative law, there are other acceptable ways, using historical documentation, to prove birth and age.
   33. Morty Causa Posted: March 15, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5417648)
29:

Informative link.
   34. Baldrick Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5417708)
Anyone interested in the history of Haiti's independence and who likes podcasts should really listen to season 4 of the Revolutions podcast. Suffice to say, zonk's take is basically right whereas Cargo Cultist once again reveals himself to be an awful human being.

Revolutions should be mandatory listening for all people. It's so ridiculously good.
   35. DL from MN Posted: March 15, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5417716)
Regarding the Dominican "Haitians" like Sano - you have people who are culturally Dominican - born on the east side of the island, speak Spanish not French, may have never been to Haiti - but they're not treated like other Dominicans.

the Dominican stripped citizenship from Dominicans of Haitian descent who were born after the 1920s.


This is a civil rights issue. How can you strip someone's citizenship for having great-grandparents born on the wrong side of an island?
   36. Covfefe Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5417744)
This is a civil rights issue. How can you strip someone's citizenship for having great-grandparents born on the wrong side of an island?


Doesn't answer the how... but of course, the repression/counter-repression across the isle that dates back to the French/Spanish bifurcation of Hispaniola has long tentacles.

In a very real way, the history of the island is kind of like the Western Hemisphere's mini-Balkans... just with a binary, rather than complicated, multi-ethnic mess of leftovers from conquests/counter-conquests/independence/satelliting from eras past. It just never managed to be the spark for a World War - and indeed, some of the unrest and repression/counter-oppression directly dates to times when said great powers were otherwise occupied.
   37. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5417774)
NOTHING that I posted was false. If there was any "glossing over," it was me glossing over the racist Haitian torture/rape/murder squads who went house to house after white and mixed blood women and children.

Haiti has done nothing to improve itself since. It is a despicable place.
   38. Cargo Cultist Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5417779)
This is a civil rights issue. How can you strip someone's citizenship for having great-grandparents born on the wrong side of an island?


Either by national law or by decree. The DR is a sovereign nation: it can strip citizenship from anyone it chooses to, and it does not care about your civil rights concerns.

You people who are defending Haiti and Haitians really need to visit Haiti. The reality of what's there will make you stop.
   39. RMc and the Respective Punishments Posted: March 15, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5417780)
The DR is a nice, civilized, well-mannered place; Haiti is a nothing but a cesspool of crime and violence.

Also, in Haiti they speak French and play (ugh) soccer. Case closed.
   40. Covfefe Posted: March 15, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5417793)
You people who are defending Haiti and Haitians really need to visit Haiti. The reality of what's there will make you stop.


I have zero desire to do so because I have no doubt that you - and everything else - is probably correct... My wallet at minimum, and perhaps worse, would be in danger.

The point is simply that it's folly to pretend that "today" exists in a vacuum, unrelated to yesterday.

As I said, I'm not even saying the 'answer' is to heap penance money on Haiti... Haiti inevitably needs to fix Haiti.

I would just posit that if you took 100 nations, ran them through the same ringer of revolution, international refusal to accept/acknowledge the consequence of said revolution, naked exploitation and pawnsmanship --- 99 of them would end up looking not unlike modern Haiti. The one exception would come from a truly remarkable set of circumstances and extended leadership of very, very high caliber (and no one is making the claim Haiti ever had that).

We had a George Washington... India had a Gandhi... But most nations tend to end up with a Pol Pot or Papa Doc Duvalier.
   41. Rickey! No. You move. Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5417831)
If there was any "glossing over," it was me glossing over the racist Haitian torture/rape/murder squads who went house to house after white and mixed blood women and children.


Tell us how those animals are coming for our helpless white women, CC. Tell us, man!
   42. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5417841)
If there was any "glossing over," it was me glossing over the racist Haitian torture/rape/murder squads who went house to house after white and mixed blood women and children.


Assuming for the sake of argument that that is a thing that actually happened, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about why it makes sense to place the blame for that on children who had literally nothing to do with it, and may not even have been born yet.
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:36 PM (#5417855)
I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about why it makes sense to place the blame for that on children who had literally nothing to do with it, and may not even have been born yet.

It doesn't make sense to blame them, and Cargo Cultist is being a huge ass, but it does explain why Dominicans dislike Haitians and are very unhappy with Haitians sneaking into their country.
   44. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5417856)
I have zero sympathy for the descendants of such filth.


Just to probe this question a little more deeply: William Patrick Stuart-Houston was former car salesman who emigrated to the United States, served honorably in the Navy during WWII, married, and had four sons. He was also the blood nephew of Adolf Hitler. In spite of his origins, he lived a respectable and drama-free life, as did all of his offspring.

It's tough to imagine a worse genetic heritage than Literally Hitler, and if he was able to transcend it, who the #### are you to say that the youth of Haiti are axiomatically unable to do so, en masse?
   45. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5417860)
This is a good book about the island as well. It's 15 years old by now, so maybe a little dated.

Yes, Haiti has had self-inflicted wounds (Duvaliers, deforestation, Wyclef's charitable organization). They've also been crippled by external factors like France charging them 150M francs for their independence. I believe that may be unique in world history.
   46. Man o' Schwar Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5417866)
Well that should make the college admissions process more efficient.

Also, holding the children responsible for the sins of the elders is essentially what would happen with slavery reparations.

You can say what you want about whether it's right to do so in Haiti, but the idea of blaming Americans for the sins of their racist forebears is not only common, it's embraced in some pretty big pockets of society.

(Haiti should get a break, though, as they're the boyhood home of one of my favorite players of the last decade - Port-au-Prince Fielder.)
   47. Covfefe Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5417868)
Just to probe this question a little more deeply: William Patrick Stuart-Houston was former car salesman who emigrated to the United States, served honorably in the Navy during WWII, married, and had four sons. He was also the blood nephew of Adolf Hitler. In spite of his origins, he lived a respectable and drama-free life, as did all of his offspring.

It's tough to imagine a worse genetic heritage than Literally Hitler, and if he was able to transcend it, who the #### are you to say that the youth of Haiti are axiomatically unable to do so, en masse?


Not for purposes of anything inflammatory or otherwise meaningful beyond a "hey, did you see..."

But I happened to catch the pop documentary "Meet the Hitlers" a week or so back. Nothing particularly earth-shattering or otherwise groundbreaking or revealing about it - like I said, a sort of "pop documentary".... but if one is fascinated by such stuff (as I am), it's a decent way to waste 90 minutes or 4 bucks.
   48. Brian C Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5417870)
I have zero desire to do so because I have no doubt that you - and everything else - is probably correct... My wallet at minimum, and perhaps worse, would be in danger.

I wouldn't be so quick to accept what he says. Most places are not as dangerous as the fearmongers would have you believe, and a quick scan of State Dept travel advisories (which are typically overly alarmist) and online travel guides indicate that Haiti is safe to visit, at least relative to the world's genuine hellholes.

Aside from which, I don't necessarily believe CC when he says he's been there.
   49. DL from MN Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5417873)
The DR is a sovereign nation: it can strip citizenship from anyone it chooses to


Fighting racism with more racism doesn't tend to turn out well for either side. People born in a country but without rights as a citizen are effectively refugees.

You people who are defending Haiti and Haitians


That's a terrific straw man argument you set up there since nobody has defended atrocities committed by Haitians. I do believe newborn babies in the Dominican Republic shouldn't be held accountable for actions that took place over 200 years ago in Haiti. That idea is, by definition, racist.

I won't blame Miguel Sano for Duvalier just like I won't blame Sammy Sosa for Trujillo.
   50. Brian C Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5417874)
Just to probe this question a little more deeply: William Patrick Stuart-Houston was former car salesman who emigrated to the United States, served honorably in the Navy during WWII, married, and had four sons. He was also the blood nephew of Adolf Hitler. In spite of his origins, he lived a respectable and drama-free life, as did all of his offspring.

It's tough to imagine a worse genetic heritage than Literally Hitler, and if he was able to transcend it, who the #### are you to say that the youth of Haiti are axiomatically unable to do so, en masse?

Of course, "blood nephew" makes him not a descendant of Adolf Hitler, and it means that Adolf Hitler was not in his "genetic heritage".
   51. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5417876)
Also, holding the children responsible for the sins of the elders is essentially what would happen with slavery reparations.


Whatever you think of the idea of slavery reparations, that doesn't seem like a good comparison at all, in that a) the bill for reparations would not be carried entirely by the children of slave-owners and b) reparations would be targeted as an improvement for a particular group of people, rather than a punitive measure directed against a different group.
   52. Rickey! No. You move. Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5417879)
You can say what you want about whether it's right to do so in Haiti, but the idea of blaming Americans for the sins of their racist forebears is not only common, it's embraced in some pretty big pockets of society.


I'd be perfectly happy just addressing the racism still near omni-present today.
   53. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5417884)
Of course, "blood nephew" makes him not a descendant of Adolf Hitler, and it means that Adolf Hitler was not in his "genetic heritage".


Adolf and William's father Alois were half-brothers, which means that William was about 1/8 Adolf Hitler - the same degree of separation as if he'd been Adolf Hitler's great-grandson. Certainly more Adolf Hitler than most people would prefer to have in their immediate family tree.
   54. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5417916)
Adolf and William's father Alois were half-brothers, which means that William was about 1/8 Adolf Hitler - the same degree of separation as if he'd been Adolf Hitler's great-grandson. Certainly more Adolf Hitler than most people would prefer to have in their immediate family tree.

Are we claiming that evil is genetic now?
   55. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5417922)
Are we claiming that evil is genetic now?


CC appears to be doing so in #13, so I think that deserves further examination.
   56. RMc and the Respective Punishments Posted: March 15, 2017 at 04:57 PM (#5417934)
He was also the blood nephew of Adolf Hitler.


We won't talk about what Hitler (allegedly) did with his niece...
   57. Brian C Posted: March 15, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5417993)
Adolf and William's father Alois were half-brothers, which means that William was about 1/8 Adolf Hitler - the same degree of separation as if he'd been Adolf Hitler's great-grandson. Certainly more Adolf Hitler than most people would prefer to have in their immediate family tree.

No. That's not how that works. Coming from the same family as Hitler is not the same as being a descendant. He was not "1/8 Adolf Hitler", what you're saying is that he shared 1/8 of the same ancestry as Adolf Hitler. That's not the same thing.

To be clear, I agree with you 100% in your overall point. You're just making an argument that has no bearing on your point.
   58. PreservedFish Posted: March 15, 2017 at 06:57 PM (#5418036)
You people who are defending Haiti and Haitians really need to visit Haiti. The reality of what's there will make you stop.


I know two people that have spent a lot of time in Haiti. One is an architect that has repeatedly traveled to Haiti to volunteer, building small homes for families in need. He has amazing stories about the hospitality and warmth of the people he's worked with, and absolutely loves returning. The other was an acquaintance that was a peace corps volunteer in Haiti - he had a very intense experience there, working in areas of incredible poverty and squalor. After he completed his two years he moved back to Haiti because he wanted to keep helping people in the same community.

Haiti is a hell hole. But people still deserve compassion, a conclusion that even some travelers to Haiti agree with.
   59. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 08:42 PM (#5418074)
It's not about racism;
Uh huh. Except we're talking about Dominicans, of Haitian ancestry, not Haitians. So it pretty much is.


This is a civil rights issue. How can you strip someone's citizenship for having great-grandparents born on the wrong side of an island?

Either by national law or by decree. The DR is a sovereign nation: it can strip citizenship from anyone it chooses to, and it does not care about your civil rights concerns.
You know who else used the argument that he could do what he wanted to people of a minority race because he ran a sovereign country, and didn't care about civil rights concerns?

I would note that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- which is, to be sure, an aspirational document rather than a legal one -- does forbid this.
   60. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:24 PM (#5418091)
I really hope that CC is not nearly as horrible as he appears. I mean ... yuck.
   61. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5418100)
In terms of being descended of mass murderers, isn't pretty much everyone descended from people who committed genocide? The United States and other countries in the Americas were built on the destruction of the native Americans. In previous centuries we have other examples of one ethnic group invading another's land and wiping out the previous landholders. Religious texts document this going back to the ancient world. I feel like it wasn't until around 150 or so years ago that people started having issues with killing the natives from other lands.
   62. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:46 PM (#5418104)
In terms of being descended of mass murderers, isn't pretty much everyone descended from people who committed genocide?


If you go back far enough, yes. The question is, at what point does is become irrelevant.
   63. PreservedFish Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5418105)
The question is, at what point does is become irrelevant.


One generation.
   64. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5418106)
The question is, at what point does is become irrelevant.


One generation.
   65. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:56 PM (#5418108)
One generation.


Yeah. In no way was I ever even obliquely defending CC's racist tirades.
   66. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 09:57 PM (#5418109)
Oh sure, I was just being snarky - and not at you.
   67. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 15, 2017 at 10:07 PM (#5418112)
If you go back far enough, yes. The question is, at what point does is become irrelevant.

One generation for judging the children of the perpetrators. But, I think we'd give the victims many generations of being pissed off about it. If a 25 y.o. Jew wants nothing to do with Germans or Germany, I can respect that.
   68. Morty Causa Posted: March 15, 2017 at 10:16 PM (#5418116)
wrong thread.
   69. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: March 15, 2017 at 10:52 PM (#5418129)
If a 25 y.o. Jew wants nothing to do with Germans or Germany, I can respect that.


And if that same Jew starts spouting off racist nonsense and saying ... well what CC has said about Haitians, then I get to say they are acting despicably and should stop it.

Anyone can "want nothing to do" with anyone, who cares? Freedom and all that, but nothing justifies unthinking hatred endlessly propagated down generations.
   70. PreservedFish Posted: March 16, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5418166)
But, I think we'd give the victims many generations of being pissed off about it.


I don't know. It's understandable but it should not be encouraged. This leads to senseless grudges, tribalism, wars and genocide.
   71. Rusty Priske Posted: March 16, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5418204)
Every time I forget what I abominable human being Cargo Cultist is, he comes back in and reminds everyone.

I have zero sympathy for the descendants of such filth.


You hate someone for something their ancestors have done rather than something that THEY have done.

You are the very definition of a bigot.

Should people hate your offspring because they had the misfortune of bearing your genetics?
   72. Cargo Cultist Posted: May 09, 2017 at 10:36 PM (#5452389)
You guys are fools. Haiti is a cesspool, as you would know if you'd been there. But none of you have, and you're all just virtue signaling, and too ignorant to recognize the difference between race and culture. Or the difference between civilized SD and barbaric Haiti. Again, it's not about race: some residents of SD are of African descent. It's about culture and civilization.

But you'll never get that. It's so much easier and more Leftist of you to point fingers and accuse a non-racist of being a racist instead of actually thinking and realizing that Haiti is ###### up solely because the Haitians ###### it up.
   73. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: May 10, 2017 at 01:45 AM (#5452486)
Cargo Cultist is a prime example of what Pauline Kael termed - in reference to Bosley Crowther, the almost invariably wrongheaded film critic of the Times during her reign at the New Yorker - "reverse acumen." If he's on one side of an issue, you can usually be pretty sure the other side is the correct one.
   74. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 10, 2017 at 06:34 AM (#5452507)
You guys are fools. Haiti is a cesspool, as you would know if you'd been there. But none of you have, and you're all just virtue signaling, and too ignorant to recognize the difference between race and culture. Or the difference between civilized SD and barbaric Haiti. Again, it's not about race: some residents of SD are of African descent. It's about culture and civilization.
Uh huh. Except that the story wasn't about Haiti. It was about people of Haitian descent who are actually from the Dominican Republic.
   75. Brian White Posted: May 10, 2017 at 08:01 AM (#5452526)
As long as we're digging this thread back up, I'd like to drop a note of thanks to The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF for bringing up the Revolutions podcast back in #25. I hadn't heard of that podcast before, and now I'm just about to finish the series on the Haitian revolution. Fascinating stuff on a topic that I knew practically nothing about.
   76. Jesus Frankenstein Posted: May 10, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5452544)
Haiti and the DR sharing Hispaniola. History and Geography: learn it.


I've heard Dominican maps of Hispaniola omit Haiti.
   77. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2017 at 09:17 AM (#5452562)
I'm just curious why CC resurrected this thread in order to repeat himself. Perhaps he couldn't find a current topic on which to splooge forth his daily bile.
   78. Greg K Posted: May 10, 2017 at 09:56 AM (#5452590)
As long as we're digging this thread back up, I'd like to drop a note of thanks to The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF for bringing up the Revolutions podcast back in #25. I hadn't heard of that podcast before, and now I'm just about to finish the series on the Haitian revolution. Fascinating stuff on a topic that I knew practically nothing about.

Thanks, I missed that the first time. That looks like it could be good listening.

Their first "revolution" is 1640s England! I'm really curious to see how that goes.
   79. TomH Posted: May 10, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5452597)
warning: !BASEBALL! related content (goodbye, OTPers)

Is the author of the article, Bruce Schoenfeld, related to Dave S?

Do any MLB teams have academies or some kind of presence in Haiti? It would seem like an inexpensive investment. Even if there is murkiness with birthdates. Would MLB consider lax-ing the age rules when dealing with a country with a different "normal" about proff of age, etc.?



   80. RJ in TO Posted: May 10, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5452606)
I'm just curious why CC resurrected this thread in order to repeat himself. Perhaps he couldn't find a current topic on which to splooge forth his daily bile.
Because David linked it in one of yesterday's Matt Harvey threads, as an example of just the sort of delightful person Cargo Cultist is.
   81. Greg K Posted: May 10, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5452728)
Listened to the first couple episodes on the way to work, the guy does a commendable job of sorting through the chaos of 1620s/1630s politics succinctly. Though if it's unfamiliar material I can see a listener getting lost in the weeds.
   82. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 10, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5452739)
I'm just curious why CC resurrected this thread in order to repeat himself. Perhaps he couldn't find a current topic on which to splooge forth his daily bile.

He says his father was heavily involved in the U.S. civil rights movement, though he's never told us his name, and when I asked him for it he didn't respond.
   83. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5452746)
I won't criticize someone for keeping his identity private.
   84. SoSH U at work Posted: May 10, 2017 at 01:25 PM (#5452784)

I won't criticize someone for keeping his identity private.


That's particularly true when the someone is really loathsome.
   85. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 10, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5452840)
I won't criticize someone for keeping his identity private.

Ordinarily I wouldn't, either, but (a) I was asking for his father's name, not his; and (b) the reason I asked was because in the thread I asked it, CC was holding forth about his extensive first hand knowledge of the civil rights movement, and how his father had a leading role in it. Since I was rather heavily involved in that movement myself, I was curious as to whether I might have run into his father at some point.

   86. Greg K Posted: May 10, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5452853)
Ordinarily I wouldn't, either, but (a) I was asking for his father's name, not his; and (b) the reason I asked was because in the thread I asked it, CC was holding forth about his extensive first hand knowledge of the civil rights movement, and how his father had a leading role in it. Since I was rather heavily involved in that movement myself, I was curious as to whether I might have run into his father at some point.

I don't think it's impolite to ask in certain contexts (such as this one). But declining to answer is not something to criticize.
   87. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 10, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5452888)
I don't think it's impolite to ask in certain contexts (such as this one). But declining to answer is not something to criticize.

Declining to answer for a credible reason, sure. Declining to answer without giving any particular reason, maybe.** But simply ignoring the question, as he's done, tends to lead to the idea that he's just blowing it out of his butt about his father's level of participation, in order to enhance his own credibility. It's also hard to imagine that anyone would be reticent about naming such an honorable father as he claims to have. It's not like it's something to be embarrassed about.

** Though given what his father's age would have to be (mid-to-late 70's at least) in order to have achieved any sort of leading status within the civil rights movement, it's extremely unlikely that he'd now be in any particularly vulnerable situation, and that's assuming anyone reading this thread would have any reason to use that information against him.

And FTR if his father was a suit-and-tie higher up, he'd almost certainly have to be well into his 80's. There were only a tiny handful of younger whites in the CRM who were considered at the time to be significant leaders under any meaningful definition: Sam Shirah, Bill Hansen, Bob Zellner and a few others.

   88. PreservedFish Posted: May 10, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5452896)
I won't criticize someone for keeping his identity private.
   89. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 10, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5452900)
I won't criticize someone for keeping his identity private.
I will. People should have the guts to stand behind what they write. Triply so if what they write is spewing vitriol.
   90. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 10, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5452905)
There were only a tiny handful of younger whites in the CRM who were considered at the time to be significant leaders under any meaningful definition: Sam Shirah, Bill Hansen, Bob Zellner and a few others.


I used to know Bob Zellner's daughter. I'm pretty sure she's not Cargo Cultist, or anyone else on BTF for that matter.
   91. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 10, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5452930)
I used to know Bob Zellner's daughter. I'm pretty sure she's not Cargo Cultist, or anyone else on BTF for that matter.

If she's anything like her dad, you should have considered it an honor. Here's one of many such stories** you can find about one of the true menschen of his generation. He and Sam Shirah have to rank as two of the finest people ever to come out of the state of Alabama.

** This story has at least one minor chronological error, placing a demonstration in 1966 rather than 1961, but it's an unimportant one.

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