Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, July 11, 2018

‘How do you lose a game on that?’ The Astros had one of weirdest walk-off wins ever

A’s catcher Jonathan Lucroy grabbed the ball and tried to tag Bregman, who backed up. Lucroy bobbled and then dropped the ball. Bregman took off for first, but Lucroy calmly picked up the ball and ... threw it past first base, allowing the winning run to score.

Zach Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:30 PM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: freak plays, houston astros, oakland a's, walkoff wins

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5708388)
on the same night, we have this crazy play to end a game, and, the Indians bringing in the wrong pitcher to face Votto, up by 1, with bases-loaded in the ninth.
   2. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5708397)
EDIT: Nevermind.
   3. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5708399)
Hmm. If this were High School, Bregman would have been out as soon as he retreated towards home. That does not appear be a rule that carries over to MLB.
   4. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5708420)
Is it just me, or does it look like the ball rolled foul?
   5. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5708423)
So Bregman has been the batter in two walk-offs this year in which two batted balls didn't go further than 15 feet.

I see Bregman has been the batter in 5 walk offs since last year game 5.
   6. Bote Man the walk-off king Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5708440)
Hmm. If this were High School, Bregman would have been out as soon as he retreated towards home. That does not appear be a rule that carries over to MLB.

Matt Wieters made this point this morning, per the Nationals radio broadcast. I mean, a runner can run backwards in a pickoff/rundown so isn't this the same concept? He was dodging the tag, did not abandon home plate (automatically out), did not run outside the lane to 1B (when he was apparently struck by the throw, which deflected it down the RF line).
   7. PreservedFish Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5708449)
Matt Wieters made this point this morning, per the Nationals radio broadcast. I mean, a runner can run backwards in a pickoff/rundown so isn't this the same concept?

Yeah, seems like a strange rule. I feel like running backwards should be a tool in a batter's arsenal, could be a way to avoid a double play or something.
   8. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5708465)
I mean, a runner can run backwards in a pickoff/rundown so isn't this the same concept?


Well, the 90 feet between home and first is different from the other 3 in many ways, the most important of which is that a runner cannot occupy home. In HS, if the batter-runner retreats back to home, he's automatically out.

edit: I just consulted my rulebooks, and it appears I am mistaken. The rule applies to softball, but not baseball.
   9. John DiFool2 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5708523)
The throw hit Bregman in the helmet too-he visibly flinches as the ball in the video flashes past him.
   10. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 11, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5708672)
   11. Tom was totally clowned by CW Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5708768)
The three biggest mistakes Lucroy made:
1. not trying to pick it before it rolled fair. The ball had danger written all over it, with the winning run headed to third he should have been jumping on that ball before it roll fair.
2. Not ignoring Bregman, he should have only been looking towards the play at 3b, if he couldn't make that play he should not have tried to get Bregman.
3. Not waiting to see if the ball would roll foul again. If he can't get the lead runner he should have let it roll.
   12. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5708777)
The three biggest mistakes Lucroy made:


Funny that none of them are spelled "Dropping the ball on the attempted tag" and "Throwing the ball away on a routine throw to first". Seems to me those are 1 and 1A, in whatever order you decide.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5708780)
1. not trying to pick it before it rolled fair. The ball had danger written all over it, with the winning run headed to third he should have been jumping on that ball before it roll fair.
No way. It should have been an easy out with no runners advancing.
   14. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5708781)
Lucroy is having a rough year (-0.6 bbref WAR) - the bat (74 OPS+) and glove (8 errors already) are going...
   15. Tom was totally clowned by CW Posted: July 11, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5708805)
Funny that none of them are spelled "Dropping the ball on the attempted tag" and "Throwing the ball away on a routine throw to first". Seems to me those are 1 and 1A, in whatever order you decide.


But the point is that his run didn't matter at all, and there was absolutely no urgency to getting him out, as he was not heading towards first until after Lucroy missed the tag. If Lucroy has a chance at the lead runner, and he should have at least made that attempt, Bregman could be doubled up.

Optimum results of the play
1) Double play inning over
2) Runners at 1b and 2b, 2 out (getting lead runner)
3) Runners at 1b and 2b, 1 out (foul ball)
large gap
4) Runner at 3b, 2 out.
5) bases loaded one out
   16. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5708807)
But the point is that his run didn't matter at all,


But the out did.
   17. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5708809)
3) Runners at 1b and 2b, 1 out (foul ball)
large gap
4) Runner at 3b, 2 out.


No ####### way this is correct. By OPS+, Bregman is the Astros best hitter. No way you pass up an easy out on him just to keep a runner from advancing to 3rd.
   18. Bote Man the walk-off king Posted: July 11, 2018 at 07:33 PM (#5708811)
Overall, Lucroy was having a poor night behind the plate. In a prior play at the plate Lucroy took the throw from near 2B and in his haste to swing around to tag Reddick charging home the ball came loose from his glove. As Lucroy just sort of stared at the ball sitting in the dirt in front of the plate, Reddick finally returned to tag home and only then was called safe by the HP umpire. He missed a chance to put out Reddick through inaction or indifference right there. It just wasn't his night.

Also, muchos kudos to home plate umpire David Rackley who got all the many calls and judgments correct in a very crazy play, as detailed in post #10.
   19. dave h Posted: July 11, 2018 at 08:03 PM (#5708824)
If you can run back towards home (and until this moment it never occurred to me you might not be able to) then what is the base path? It's supposed to be a line from where you are to the base you're attempting to get to. Is it towards home, even if you can't go there? Is it a straight line away from first? If so, I could imagine some wacky one-in-a-billion play where a runner is legally racing across the infield avoiding a tag.
   20. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 08:26 PM (#5708848)
If you can run back towards home (and until this moment it never occurred to me you might not be able to) then what is the base path? It's supposed to be a line from where you are to the base you're attempting to get to. Is it towards home, even if you can't go there? Is it a straight line away from first? If so, I could imagine some wacky one-in-a-billion play where a runner is legally racing across the infield avoiding a tag.


That's a good point, and could be a basis for the rule. You can run back to second base to avoid a tag, because you are allowed to occupy second base. You cannot occupy home, so you shouldn't be able to run towards it to avoid a tag. One could disagree with that, but the logic is clear as to why running backwards to home can be treated as different from other bases.
   21. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5708876)
You CAN run backwards towards home. But you can NOT run so far back that you actually TOUCH HOME PLATE; if you do that, you’re automatically out.

Per the link in 10
   22. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5708878)
You CAN run backwards towards home. But you can NOT run so far back that you actually TOUCH HOME PLATE; if you do that, you’re automatically out.

Per the link in 10


I understand that. Because you cannot legally occupy home, retreating towards home can be treated differently than retreating to another base. It is not, but there's logic as to why it could be.
   23. Nasty Nate Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5708879)
A nice view is at about 1:09 here: https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/07/11/2257518183/1531288910412/asset_1800K.mp4

By the time it's fair, I don't think there's any play at third. Trying for the tag out is definitely preferable to letting it go foul.
   24. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5708882)
And I'll cop to being responsible for starting the whole pointless discussion, as I misremembered the rule difference between HS baseball and HS softball, both of which I umpire. It's weird. In most ways the games are the same. There are a few major differences, and those are easy to remember. what's hard is remembering the non-sensical differences, like not being allowed to retreat towards home. Baseball, OK. Softball, not. It makes no sense why they would be different. In baseball, you can automatically walk a batter. In softball, the pitcher needs to throw 4 balls. In baseball, a batter is out on a dropped third strike as soon as he abandons any attempt to run to first. In softball, the batter has to reach the dugout to be automatically out. There are many differences like this, and it's maddening trying to remember which applies.
   25. Lindor Truffles Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5708895)
Here’s a great breakdown of the play from an umpire’s perspective, quoting from each part of the rulebook to cover the various parts of the play.

I want to believe that’s really Balkin’ Bob in the comments section.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5708924)
And I'll cop to being responsible for starting the whole pointless discussion


Hardly. Like dave h, I had never given any thought to the question of retreating between home and first (nor, obviously, did I know the specifics of the rule as laid out in the link in 10). It was a welcome diversion.
   27. Perry Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5708944)
I want to believe that’s really Balkin’ Bob in the comments section.


Pretty sure it is, actually.
   28. Bug Selig Posted: July 12, 2018 at 07:04 PM (#5709257)
Baseball, OK. Softball, not. It makes no sense why they would be different.
I bet baseball just never got around to it. High school baseball, even after they deadened the bats, has strategies other than bunting. The basic scenario (batter and ball-possessing fielder standing in the 1B line staring at each other wondering WTF happened) has to happen 20x more in softball.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Tuque
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogRed Sox division title banner falls off truck; its return may cost them - The Boston Globe
(21 - 4:25am, Sep 20)
Last: manchestermets

NewsblogOTP 2018 September 17: How Brett Kavanaugh explains his baseball ticket debt
(1253 - 2:12am, Sep 20)
Last: tshipman

NewsblogIt's not a tantrum, it's a cry for OMNICHATTER! for Sept. 19, 2018
(89 - 1:55am, Sep 20)
Last: Bote Man the walk-off king

NewsblogOrioles match club record with 107th loss, 5-0 to Blue Jays before tiny home crowd
(33 - 1:13am, Sep 20)
Last: Howie Menckel

Gonfalon CubsThe Final Push
(129 - 11:49pm, Sep 19)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

Sox Therapy11 Days Later
(65 - 11:25pm, Sep 19)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogOT - 2018 NBA Thread (Pre-Season Edition)
(414 - 10:56pm, Sep 19)
Last: Der-K: at 10% emotional investment

NewsblogGoin' to Carolina in OMNICHATTER's mind, for September 18, 2018
(105 - 10:28pm, Sep 19)
Last: puck

NewsblogSnell wins 20th, ties Rays record in 4-0 victory over Texas
(12 - 10:18pm, Sep 19)
Last: Mike Emeigh

NewsblogWillians Astudillo Should Be Your New Favorite Player
(13 - 10:13pm, Sep 19)
Last: Srul Itza

Sox Therapy6,036 Days
(11 - 10:08pm, Sep 19)
Last: dave h

NewsblogThe Orioles became the first professional sports team to wear Braille jerseys
(49 - 10:06pm, Sep 19)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogCain stars in Directional Outs Above Average
(13 - 9:46pm, Sep 19)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-19-2018
(41 - 8:44pm, Sep 19)
Last: AndrewJ

NewsblogBaseball Image of the Day: Warning Sign at Fenway
(5 - 8:39pm, Sep 19)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

Page rendered in 0.3135 seconds
46 querie(s) executed