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Monday, June 18, 2018

OTP 2018 June 18: How Life Imitates the Congressional Baseball Game

“This game is a situation of which, you’re a product of your political success, so if you have a good political year, you have a good recruiting year for this game.” So said former Rep. David Bonior, D-Mich., many years ago about the Congressional Baseball Game and the teams each party gets to field.

Washington is host to the 2018 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, known among fans as the midsummer classic. But Capitol Hill has staged its own midsummer classic every year for more than five decades, the Congressional Baseball Game.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:15 AM | 1775 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   101. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5694582)
I think the kids are probably coached by their parents on what to say
Before, or after they've been separated? ;)
   102. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5694587)
More platitudes. "Things can change" is not an argument. Neither Nixon nor W were leaders of a cult, the way Trump is.


Well if by "platitude" you mean "something blazingly obvious some here refuse to acknowledge" then sure. And, no, Trump is not the leader of a cult. Seriously get a grip people.

#NeverTrump turned into "Well, I guess" and then into "Yup, Trump!", and it can morph back just as quickly. Trump has a hard core base of racist and xenophobic support (Hi TGF!), but that core is not larger than it was ten years ago, they are just more noticeable. Just like Obama didn't magically kill racism, Trump didn't magically bring it back from the dead.

The GOP has a long history of embracing leaders right up until ... "Conservatism didn't fail X, X failed conservatism." And then X is out the door, rendered a non-person for as long as it takes. In recent memory we have Bush, father and son, who were conservative leaders (son more than father I grant you) right up until they were not. If you guys think Trump won't be abandoned even faster if the situation warrants it then you guys are nuts.

EDIT: and what JayZ said in #99.
   103. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5694591)
I think the kids are probably coached by their parents on what to say,


The parents they've separated from?
   104. . Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5694593)
But an unpopular Trump whose party is losing elections is no different than anyone else, unless you think he'll call out the troops and suspend elections.


He has authoritarian leanings, but has no desire whatever -- or ability or organizational skill -- to do the dirty work necessary to make himself an actual authoritarian governmental numero uno. Someone with his leanings could in the United States, to be sure -- but not Donald Trump.

So he'll do the occasionally petty, authoritarian thing while the TDS crowd insists that he's Hitler in waiting. Which is pretty much how it's all unfolding. As some of us said it would.
   105. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5694596)
I never like to link to opinion columns, but this one by Paul Waldman raises a question that I've been wondering about for the past 19 months:

There may have been an FBI conspiracy involving the 2016 election. But not the one you think.
This afternoon, Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz will testify on Capitol Hill about the lengthy report he issued last week on the FBI’s investigation into Hillary Clinton’s email, but what may be the most important part of the story of the FBI and Clinton in 2016 has gotten almost no attention.

The blizzard of lies and innuendo that President Trump has thrown up around this issue has succeeded in narrowing the questions that get asked to exactly the ones he wants. Was there a “deep state” conspiracy against Trump? Was the FBI unspeakably biased against him? Was the investigation into Russia illegitimate from the beginning? Even if you answer “no” to all of those questions, you’re still talking about what Trump wants you to talk about.

But here’s what we ought to be asking: Did FBI agents in the bureau’s New York office effectively make Donald Trump the president of the United States?

If you’re wondering what I’m talking about, you probably aren’t alone. But let’s look at it this way: You’ve no doubt heard of Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, the FBI officials who were having an affair and exchanged text messages in which they expressed their mutual distaste for the future president. You’ve heard of them because the Justice Department showed reporters their texts, then conservative media and Trump proceeded to make them famous, despite the fact that there is precisely zero evidence that their personal feelings about Trump biased the investigations they were involved in. The inspector general’s report concludes that whatever Strzok and Page may have said to each other in private, they didn’t do anything about it.

In contrast, a group of FBI agents in the bureau’s New York office seems to have been doing everything it could in the fall of 2016 to make sure Clinton wouldn’t become president. We don’t know their names. We haven’t read their texts. We may eventually learn the full extent of the actions they took, since the inspector general is conducting a separate investigation that involves them. But to this point, it has been something only the most dedicated aficionados of the story of how James B. Comey all but handed Trump the election knew anything about.

Let’s begin with the fact that during 2016, the FBI’s New York office was by numerous accounts the epicenter of an effort to undermine Clinton through leaks to the media and prominent Republicans. As one report put it just before the election, “Deep antipathy to Hillary Clinton exists within the FBI, multiple bureau sources have told the Guardian, spurring a rapid series of leaks damaging to her campaign just days before the election.” As one agent put it, “The FBI is Trumpland.” A former Justice Department official told Vanity Fair in 2017, “It was widely understood that there was a faction in [the New York] office that couldn’t stand her and was out to get her.”

Their efforts became critical when the office, in the course of its investigation of Anthony Weiner, husband of Clinton aide Huma Abedin, acquired Weiner’s laptop on Sept. 26, 2016, and found on it thousands of emails to and from Clinton. Rep. Devin Nunes, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and Trump’s most slavish water carrier, said last week: “We had whistleblowers that came to us in late September of 2016 who talked to us about this laptop sitting up in New York that had additional emails on it. So good F.B.I. agents brought this to our attention.” It’s a bit curious to characterize FBI agents who rushed to tell a Republican congressman about Weiner’s laptop within just a few days of its discovery, and before they had gone through the emails to see whether there was anything problematic about them (which, it turned out, there wasn’t), as “whistleblowers.” Rep. Adam Schiff, ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, said yesterday that Nunes never told him at the time.

At the same time, there were agents leaking information about investigations into the Clinton Foundation to none other than Rudy Giuliani, who would then go and air the charges on Fox News. Two days before Comey would tell Congress that the bureau had reopened the investigation into Clinton’s emails — a blockbuster announcement that may well have thrown the election to Trump — Giuliani said on Fox News, “I do think that all of these revelations about Hillary Clinton finally are beginning to have an impact. He’s got a surprise or two that you’re going to hear about in the next two days.”

To give you one more example, just days before the election, an FBI source told Fox News’s Bret Baier that Clinton’s email had been hacked and she would soon be indicted — a false story that Baier later apologized for airing. But of course by then the damage had been done, and the picture of Clinton as an impossibly corrupt figure who would be locked up any day was firmly entrenched in the public’s mind. ...

The irony is that this story wasn't at all hidden in the days leading up to the election, but since then it's slipped into the memory hole, due to the fact that the Republicans control both houses of Congress and have no interest in following up on it. Let's just hope that the IG's investigation into the New York office, alluded to in the 5th paragraph of the above story, shines a light on what really went on there during the election campaign. Let's also hope that this investigation names names, and that those names become as well known to the public at large as Peter Strzok and Lisa Page.
   106. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5694597)
The parents they've separated from?


I think you meant ... been ripped away from, crying, and at gun point. Let's not start downplaying it now.
   107. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5694598)
As pointed out with Nixon bush wasnt abandoned until 2008. He was defended and supported through two national elections and two mid term elections. Nobody abandoned bush I. If trump loses the 2020 election they will abandon him and deride him. They'll all be busy rewriting history and how they really were antitrump.
   108. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5694608)
They'll all be busy rewriting history and how they really were antitrump.


Correct. If Trump is impeached or removed or loses re-election, Jason will return to explain how he was always "never Trump."
   109. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5694612)
But here’s what we ought to be asking: Did FBI agents in the bureau’s New York office effectively make Donald Trump the president of the United States?


Rudy Guiliani bragged about how his friends in the NY office of the FBI were going to take Hillary down, in real time.
   110. Karl from NY Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5694620)
the worst Senate map in modern history

Just want to point this out: that the Democrats are defending so many Senate seats in 2018 isn't some cosmic coincidence or injustice. It's because Democratic senators overperformed in 2012 on the coattails of Obama's reelection landslide. Now those terms expire six years later.
   111. zenbitz Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5694624)
Coulter assumes babies have to be coached to cry for their mothers because she was raised by snakes. Wait, that's obviously unfair to reptiles.

Cockroaches. Let's go with that.
   112. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5694627)
As pointed out with Nixon bush wasnt abandoned until 2008. He was defended and supported through two national elections and two mid term elections. Nobody abandoned bush I. If trump loses the 2020 election they will abandon him and deride him.


Who are you taking about? Voters? Because the voters didn't exactly defend and support Nixon, Bush I, or Bush II after they became toxic waste dumps.And when the voters turned on them, the politicians were not that far behind.

Nixon: Resigned when it was clear voters and GOP politicians had turned against him.

Bush I: He was shunned after he lost the election (I agree with that), but he wasn't toxic before that, just unloved by a large section of the GOP. Kind of like Trump actually, except of course Bush I has way more time put in with the GOP, whereas Trump is new to the party.

Bush II: Became toxic after Katrina. Politicians started distancing themselves from him fairly quickly (not all of them), but after the 2006 shellacking Bush II was the lamest of lame ducks. The GOP did their best at that point to minimize him, but at that point there was no upside in attacking, defending or much of anything around him.

My point is for each of them, after they became a liability, the GOP had no problem turning their back on them. Why on Earth would Trump be different? I mean yes it would happen in Trump's first term, unlike any of the other three, but it is not like the GOP is going to weld themselves to Trump in the instance he becomes an orange colored electoral anchor.
   113. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5694628)
Just want to point this out: that the Democrats are defending so many Senate seats in 2018 isn't some cosmic coincidence or injustice. It's because Democratic senators overperformed in 2012 on the coattails of Obama's reelection landslide. Now those terms expire six years later.


I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise. In fact I alluded to it recently wen I mentioned that Trump seemed poised to postpone the worst Senate map ever for six years. As you note it is the worst map because Democrats won a bunch of tough elections in a very favorable year. It is the result of Democrats not squandering an opportunity, unlike what the GOP seems ready, willing, and able to do in just a few months.

However, all tat being said in analyzing the outcomes from the election you have to take into account how hard or easy the map is. Which is why I say if the Democrats only lose one seat (or do even better) it is basically cause for celebration. If that same result happens in 2020 it will be cause for mourning. All elections are not the same.
   114. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5694632)
Who are you taking about? Voters? Because the voters didn't exactly defend and support Nixon, Bush I, or Bush II after they became toxic waste dumps.And when the voters turned on them, the politicians were not that far behind.

Nixon: Resigned when it was clear voters and GOP politicians had turned against him.

Bush I: He was shunned after he lost the election (I agree with that), but he wasn't toxic before that, just unloved by a large section of the GOP. Kind of like Trump actually, except of course Bush I has way more time put in with the GOP, whereas Trump is new to the party.

Bush II: Became toxic after Katrina. Politicians started distancing themselves from him fairly quickly (not all of them), but after the 2006 shellacking Bush II was the lamest of lame ducks. The GOP did their best at that point to minimize him, but at that point there was no upside in attacking, defending or much of anything around him.

My point is for each of them, after they became a liability, the GOP had no problem turning their back on them. Why on Earth would Trump be different? I mean yes it would happen in Trump's first term, unlike any of the other three, but it is not like the GOP is going to weld themselves to Trump in the instance he becomes an orange colored electoral anchor.
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This is just reads as a narrative in search of facts. I'll set aside Bush I because I think it is obvious he doesn't work as proof of your viewpoint. Bush II-The thing is nobody turned on him and as you mentioned he was a lame duck. Trump won't find himself in that situation for a very long time so looking at how politicians treated a lame duck President is kind of pointless when looking at Trump. Trump has another election coming up in which he is going to be the face of the party and in which a substantial portion of the GOP base is going to support him. Who is going to go through a GOP primary as an enemy of Trump? In the primaries being a Trump supporter hasn't hurt politicians and if anything it has helped quite a few. So again why would politicians abandon him? You talk of things changing quickly and sure that can happen but we are nowhere close to something happening quickly. It took a very long time for things "to happen quickly" for Nixon. Trump is simply not in a position yet to be abandoned by the party and doesn't look to be abandoned by the party in 2020. Even if they can't stand the guy and want him gone they aren't going to abandon him in 2020. They just aren't.
   115. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5694641)
Gallup: Trump Job Approval Rating At 45%, Tying His Personal Best:
The recent increase in Trump's approval puts his rating on par with those for several other presidents during June in their second years in office. These include Barack Obama (46%), Bill Clinton (46%), Ronald Reagan (45%) and Jimmy Carter (43%).
   116. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5694642)
Space Force? A separate but equal branch of the military?
   117. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5694644)
He has authoritarian leanings, but has no desire whatever -- or ability or organizational skill -- to do the dirty work necessary to make himself an actual authoritarian governmental numero uno. Someone with his leanings could in the United States, to be sure -- but not Donald Trump.

So he'll do the occasionally petty, authoritarian thing while the TDS crowd insists that he's Hitler in waiting. Which is pretty much how it's all unfolding. As some of us said it would.
Far from being embarrassed, SBB is embracing his part in downplaying Trump's acts. This amounts to little more than "well, he isn't planning to take over the world, really, so no reason to get all upset about the occasional atrocity. In fact, I'm fine with it, it just makes me look smarter in my own mind."
   118. DavidFoss Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5694646)
Gallup: Trump Job Approval Rating At 45%, Tying His Personal Best:

Stay the course! More caging of children! :-)
   119. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5694649)
This is just reads as a narrative in search of facts.


Unlike your rigorously proven hypothesis?

You seem to think Trump is now and forevermore bullet proof, is the leader of the cult of the GOP, and nothing anyone or anything can do can change that (yes I am slightly exaggerating, but not that much). You like your narrative and want to pretend it is ironclad fact. I like my narrative and am more than willing to admit it is narrative and I might be wrong.

Trump has another election coming up in which he is going to be the face of the party and in which a substantial portion of the GOP base is going to support him. Who is going to go through a GOP primary as an enemy of Trump?


I have said nothing about 2020 (I hope that is what you are talking about). Can we get through 2016 first? Where Trump is not on the ballot and yet much of the election will be about him. After that we shall see whether this current mess was pivotal or not. There is no way to know right at this very moment, no matter how sure you think you are.

In the primaries being a Trump supporter hasn't hurt politicians and if anything it has helped quite a few. So again why would politicians abandon him?


This has been talked about a ton, and doesn't prove what you seem to think it does. In any event I have not said politicians are already abandoning Trump, simply that once he becomes toxic (if he does) they will have zero problem dumping him in a New York minute.

You talk of things changing quickly and sure that can happen but we are nowhere close to something happening quickly. It took a very long time for things "to happen quickly" for Nixon. Trump is simply not in a position yet to be abandoned by the party and doesn't look to be abandoned by the party in 2020. Even if they can't stand the guy and want him gone they aren't going to abandon him in 2020. They just aren't.


Again, I favor leaving off analyzing 2020 until after the results of 2016 are in. We don't even know that Trump will be running in 2020. The leading indicator he has become well and truly toxic would be his not running (for any one of a number of excuses/reasons).
   120. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5694650)
Rudy Guiliani bragged about how his friends in the NY office of the FBI were going to take Hillary down, in real time.

And yet not a single Republican led congressional committee has shown any more interest in pursuing this than Trump himself. Three guesses why. Let's just hope that the IG won't be so reticent.
   121. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5694653)
Gallup: Trump Job Approval Rating At 45%, Tying His Personal Best:


That might be his personal best for a while yet, so enjoy it now, quick.
   122. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5694656)
Has an incumbent president actually been abandoned by his party -- well, by its base -- since Taft 106 years ago?

(Not that Carter did so hot in 1980.)
   123. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5694657)
You seem to think Trump is now and forevermore bullet proof, is the leader of the cult of the GOP, and nothing anyone or anything can do can change that (yes I am slightly exaggerating, but not that much). You like your narrative and want to pretend it is ironclad fact. I like my narrative and am more than willing to admit it is narrative and I might be wrong.

He's bulletproof for what you think will happen to him by the GOP.

This has been talked about a ton, and doesn't prove what you seem to think it does. In any event I have not said politicians are already abandoning Trump, simply that once he becomes toxic (if he does) they will have zero problem dumping him in a New York minute.

Sure but that won't happen until at least September of 2020 at the earliest and even then it will be soft. The knives won't really come out until after the 2020 election and if he loses.


Your point seems to be that if Trump becomes toxic they'll dump him. That's not exactly a profound view and doesn't really mean much. Pretty much everybody everywhere in the history of the world get dumped when they are toxic. The key issue isn't whether or not they'll get dumped but when they become toxic and how people get to that point. My argument from the beginning on this point is that what Trump is currently doing is not toxic and by all indications the base is not abandoning him and would need to fall much much more before anyone in the party is going to openly challenge him. The GOP will continue to tiptoe around Trump and placate him as much as possible throughout the rest of 2018. So if you're looking at only 2018 and not 2020 then the answer is simple. Trump is not toxic within the GOP and will not be abandoned in 2018.
   124. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5694658)
But who is coaching the detained children?
The parents, their lawyers, activist groups, the media, whatever.

EDIT: cokes.


I think the kids are probably coached by their parents on what to say,

The parents they've separated from?
Before they were separated. Or their family members to whom they were released.
   125. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5694659)
Mouse, McCoy, you seem like you're just talking past each other. McCoy's making a valid point that Trump remains wildly popular within the GOP, while Mouse is making the equally valid point that he's becoming increasingly toxic outside the GOP. Am I misreading what either of you are saying?
   126. Eddo Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5694660)
The parents, their lawyers, activist groups, the media, whatever.

They are being kept in camps. What lawyers, activist groups, or media members are being granted time with them?
   127. DavidFoss Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5694662)
(Not that Carter did so hot in 1980.)

Ford/Reagan in 1976 was closer.

But to the original question, I can't think of any. Hoover was doomed in 1932, but not within his party. He still got 98.5% of delegates.
   128. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5694663)
If he's not toxic now, then when will he become toxic? What will have to happen?
   129. Lassus Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5694665)
David, your work on this page is especially gross.
   130. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5694666)
Rudy Guiliani bragged about how his friends in the NY office of the FBI were going to take Hillary down, in real time.

And yet not a single Republican led congressional committee has shown any more interest in pursuing this than Trump himself.

I think that story-line got shot down not long after it emerged, which is why the media hasn't pursued it. It's not like they've been reluctant to go after Trump. But if you folks are so convinced that Hillary was treated unfairly, seems only fair that the Dems put her forward for a 2020 rematch.
   131. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5694668)

David, your work on this page is especially gross.
See, that's virtue signaling. You so much need to prove how much you hate someone that you characterize the mere act of interpreting what that person is saying as unacceptable.
   132. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5694672)
If he's not toxic now, then when will he become toxic? What will have to happen?


You guys still seem to refuse to understand that his torturing of toddlers at the border is what is *driving* the bump in approval Clapper is jacking off into a sock about. You fail to account, repeatedly, over and over, for how evil 40+ percent of the American population is.
   133. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5694674)
I think that story-line got shot down not long after it emerged


I think that everyone here knows precisely how much value to put on your spin for this.
   134. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5694675)
#### show alert: Nielsen is going to join Sarah Sanders for the presser that was scheduled for 1pm DST, postponed to 3:30, and postponed again until 4:00. It's 4:40. Think they're having a hard time thinking up bullshit excuses?
   135. Karl from NY Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5694677)
Bush I had only two problems: a badly timed economic recession that he didn't cause, and an opportunistic charismatic challenger that arose at the right time. He was never hated, just perceived as uncool.
   136. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5694678)
You guys still seem to refuse to understand that his torturing of toddlers at the border is what is *driving* the bump in approval Clapper is jacking off into a sock about. You fail to account, repeatedly, over and over, for how evil 40+ percent of the American population is.


I agree sadly.
   137. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5694681)
A hahahahaha Sanders is refusing to take questions about the debacle on the border by herself, so they're flying Nielsen in from NOLA!!! What a horrible horrible administration this is.
   138. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5694682)
#### show alert: Nielsen is going to join Sarah Sanders for the presser that was scheduled for 1pm DST, postponed to 3:30, and postponed again until 4:00. It's 4:40. Think they're having a hard time thinking up bullshit excuses?


The story leaking out is that Sanders refused to go and deal with this shitstorm by herself.
   139. Eddo Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5694691)
See, that's virtue signaling. You so much need to prove how much you hate someone that you characterize the mere act of interpreting what that person is saying as unacceptable.

David, it was not entirely clear you were interpreting and not giving your own thoughts.

EDIT: Also, if they were your own thoughts, it wouldn't be virtue signaling, it would be calling your opinions out for being gross.
   140. SandyRiver Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5694693)
#135: Clinton '92 and his team ran what I consider to be the most effective/skilled presidential campaign in my political memory, which dates back to Nixon-JFK. (Was born before Dewey-Truman, but not quite politically aware.) I recall a Dan Quayle comment after Bush 41 had conceded, "If Bill Clinton runs the presidency as well as he's run this campaign, the country will be in good shape."
   141. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5694695)
Listen.

And when you go to sleep tonight, let these cries ring in your ears, you Dancing Monkey pieces of ####.


Ray, Juan, TGF, Clapper. #### you.
   142. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5694698)
I stumbled onto a bit of some Congressional hearing with the FBI guy Wray.

Ted Cruz is talking, and normally that is a great time to CLICK. but he is an accomplished attorney and he seemed to be talking about a legal issue, so ok.

Cruz claims that there is dispute that Comey testified under oath that not only did he not leak info about the (was it Trump or Hillary?) investigation, he never authorized anyone to do so. yet McCabe, he claims, testified under oath that Comey DID authorize him to leak to the press.

is Cruz correct on that? he asked Wray who was telling the truth, and Wray said, "yadda homina legal matter yadda homina," basically.

and if Cruz is correct, could that be a big problem for Comey or McCabe? it seems like most of this stuff is so nebulous that everyone can claim to be accurate. not sure about this one.

finally, what is the difference - if any - in terms of legal seriousness to lie under oath in a criminal trial than lie under oath at a Congressional hearing? (the other piece of that is whether this issue is even liable to rise to the level of being worth chasing after.)

thanks, I'll hang up and await your responses.
   143. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5694699)

The story leaking out is that Sanders refused to go and deal with this shitstorm by herself.


Wouldn't Jesus tell her what to say? Or does he have only Pence's ear?
   144. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5694705)
break, break.

Emmanuel Macron is a badass, everyone. Pretty sure that thing is way bigger than Trump's.

full article
   145. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5694706)
He's bulletproof for what you think will happen to him by the GOP.


Clearly you have imagined a position of mine and are now attacking it, which I am sure is quite pleasurable for you. I never claimed Trump would lose a primary or whatever it is you have imagined. So yes, whatever it is the voices are telling you I think will happen is likely not going to happen. Congrats?

The point is you claimed "Nothing is going to change in the White House until either he gets kicked out or he finishes two terms and doesn't get Ivanka to run." And I think that is an oversell. It was when you first said it and it remains so now.

Trump might never change, but that doesn't mean the White House is immune to the political forces that every other administration has been effected by. Why you think it would be remains a mystery to me. You keep talking about all the other administrations in the past that were effected by political forces exactly like I am taking about and weirdly you keep pretending they buttress your case.

They don't. When Presidents become toxic then are minimized as much as possible and then forgotten as soon as feasible. That doesn't mean they are primaried. It is really really hard to primary a sitting president (for obvious reasons). But they can become radioactive, not welcome in other politicians districts, their opinion not sought, and every priority of theirs given second class staus.

It happens to kings for Pete's sake, it happens all the time. Pretending Trump will now and forever be unchanging and the supreme ruler of the GOP is silly.
   146. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5694709)
Mouse, McCoy, you seem like you're just talking past each other. McCoy's making a valid point that Trump remains wildly popular within the GOP, while Mouse is making the equally valid point that he's becoming increasingly toxic outside the GOP. Am I misreading what either of you are saying?


You are close with me. I am saying political forces still effect the Trump White House. Some of that is forces from within the GOP (politicians who don't want to be destroyed in their next election and also don't want to be primaried) and some of it comes from other places - the courts, staff (political appointees and not), the courts, and so on.

I have never disputed that Trump is wildly popular with his base. He has a core of support and will for the foreseeable future. It doesn't make him invulnerable though.
   147. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5694710)
The story leaking out is that Sanders refused to go and deal with this shitstorm by herself.


Almost like a member of his administration feeling the effect of crap hitting the fan, even if Trump himself doesn't care. Hmmmm.
   148. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5694716)
Nielsen is heartless.
   149. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5694719)
You guys still seem to refuse to understand that his torturing of toddlers at the border is what is *driving* the bump in approval Clapper is jacking off into a sock about. You fail to account, repeatedly, over and over, for how evil 40+ percent of the American population is.

I agree sadly.


No, this is wrong.

The Gallup poll Clapper is orgasming over was in the field starting June 11 - a week ago - wrapping up June 17. I'd also point out that we've got a CNN/SSRS (June 14-17) with him at 39%, and a pair of YouGov polls (are they doing a tracker now?) from 13-14 and 14-15 with him at 43% and 40%.

This sort of stuff takes a while to percolate - all of these polls are "all adults", too (we're probably still a good 2-3 months off from pollsters moving to LV models). Bold prediction time - once we hate Labor Day, Clapper's polling updates will become VERY sparse, if not non-existent.

Pretending that the sky is falling because a selective cherry-pick has him moving up a few points from 40% is silly.

So by all means, give Clapper's life meaning by oh noes!ing his occasional cherry pick. It doesn't change the reality.
   150. GordonShumway Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5694721)
You guys still seem to refuse to understand that his torturing of toddlers at the border is what is *driving* the bump in approval Clapper is jacking off into a sock about. You fail to account, repeatedly, over and over, for how evil 40+ percent of the American population is.


According to Quinnipac, 55% of Republicans support the child separation policy, 35% against. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I'm guessing that the 55% are a lot more enthusiastic in their beliefs than the 35%.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2550
   151. Srul Itza Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5694724)
Coaching?

The parents are coming to the border, seeking asylum.

The better advised or smarter among them have been coached as to what to say, to seek asylum.

If their children are old enough to understand, the better advised/smarter parent(s) have probably similarly coached them to corroborate the parent(s)' story.

That has nothing to do with the anguish unleashed after they are suddenly separated at the border, which is a change in policy, and which they have probably not been told to expect, before now.
   152. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5694725)
I'm still catching up on it, but this DHS Secretary's (Kirsten something) account of what is going on is so far afield from the general newsfeed out there that it's frightening. a lot of people have lost their minds - maybe both sides have, I don't know. can't wait for the Fact Checks on this one.

I mean, she says that 10,000 out of the 12,000 minors under HHS care were sent by their parents here alone. she calls this very dangerous given smuggler issues, and says these separations occurred long before the kids arrive at the border. she also claims that the separations that do occur at the border usually are because there is no way to tell if the kid is with mommy - or a human trafficker, which she claims is a booming business in recent years.

she claims that Congress's own law demands that the children be separated from the parents, so why don't they change it?

I mean, I don't know if I buy any of it, but geesh, we are living in alternate universes on this. get to work, snopes.com!
   153. Eddo Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5694727)
I mean, she says that 10,000 out of the 12,000 minors under HHS care were sent by their parents here alone.

This does not contradict with the mainstream reporting that "around 2,000" children have been separated from their parents.

she claims that Congress's own law demands that the children be separated from the parents, so why don't they change it?

This has been clearly debunked by people everywhere on the political spectrum.
   154. zenbitz Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5694729)
"We have always separated criminals from their children" is a good* line. And shows *exactly* where the demarcation line is drawn. Is foreign person seeking asylum a criminal just for setting foot on US soil without a visa?

I would like to think the forces of justice and humanity win this battle... but maybe that is overly optimistic.

* good as in "probably rhetorically effective", not as in *morally* good.
   155. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5694731)
this DHS Secretary's (Kirsten something) account of what is going on is so far afield from the general newsfeed out there that it's frightening.
Is there any reason to pretend that she's telling the truth?
   156. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5694732)
According to Quinnipac, 55% of Republicans support the child separation policy, 35% against. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I'm guessing that the 55% are a lot more enthusiastic in their beliefs than the 35%.


Just a bigger piece of a shrinking pie.

Again, we had contested GOP primaries in NV, SC, and VA last week - and turnout was way down (on the GOP side) compared to prior contested primaries in those states. The Texas excuse doesn't work everywhere.

   157. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5694733)
Is there any reason to pretend that she's telling the truth?


You'll be right a hella lot more than you're wrong if you follow the maxim: If unsure, assume a Trump appointee is lying.

Also - another Republican breaks ranks...

Rep. Kevin Yoder (R-KS), the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee’s subcommittee on Homeland Security, sent a letter to Attorney General Jeff Sessions calling for him to end the controversial policy.


I haven't been keeping count - but noted Will Hurd's comments last page...

If Trump's policy is so popular with Republicans, why are so many Republicans - I see Rick Scott just came out in opposition of the policy, too - running away from it so hard and so fast?
   158. TDF, trained monkey Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5694734)
Is foreign person seeking asylum a criminal just for setting foot on US soil without a visa?
No, the opposite: You cannot seek asylum until you're on US soil:
A foreign national who seeks asylum in the United States may do so either affirmatively or defensively.
A foreign national who seeks asylum in the United States may do so either affirmatively or defensively. An affirmative asylum seeker is physically present in the United States. This person must apply for asylum within one year of his arrival in the United States. He may be undocumented, living in the United States without status, or may have entered the U.S. on a visa which will soon expire...

A defensive asylum applicant is a person who is apprehended after entering the United States at a border and applies for asylum while the threat of removal by the Department of Homeland Security looms. An applicant must be in removal proceedings in immigration court to request asylum in this manner. The application is the same, but the asylum seeker must file his application with the immigration court with jurisdiction over the applicant’s case. The applicant must show that persecution is more probable than not if he is forced to return home.
   159. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5694735)
Ha, passing this along just so the right people will be angry about it...

During a Monday appearance on “Fox & Friends,” Trump’s favorite TV show, Alan Dershowitz — a conservative attorney who often defends Trump — made a direct appeal to the president to stop separating children from their parents.

“You have to end this policy of separating parents from children. Not because of the parents, but because of the children. It imposes a trauma on the children,” Dershowitz said. “It imposes a trauma on the children. It’s just unacceptable. It’s just not proper. There are other ways of doing this.”
   160. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5694736)
Submitted for the academy's approval - best child actors.

The baritone voice of a Border Patrol agent booms above the crying. “Well, we have an orchestra here,” he jokes. “What’s missing is a conductor.”
   161. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5694745)
If Trump's policy is so popular with Republicans, why are so many Republicans - I see Rick Scott just came out in opposition of the policy, too - running away from it so hard and so fast?


Rick Scott wants to be my latex salesman. He cannot support this policy and get elected. I have little doubt he would like to, and probably secretly does, but it would be political suicide. If he were not running for something this year, I have little doubt he would remain silent.
   162. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5694746)
per 158, Kirsten something made quite an effort to split people trying to get past the border illegally and those seeking asylum - which kind of surprised me.
   163. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5694747)
Is foreign person seeking asylum a criminal just for setting foot on US soil without a visa?

No, and those applying for political asylum at their point of entry are NOT treated as criminals nor separated from their children. It's those arrested for crossing the border illegally, who then try to claim political asylum that create the problem. Minors can only be held for 20 days, and it usually takes longer than that to process even spurious claims for political asylum. Any separation of parent and child stems from the parent's criminal act, and as #152 noted, that constitutes a relatively small group compared to the number of unaccompanied minors.
   164. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5694751)
No, and those applying for political asylum at their point of entry are NOT treated as criminals nor separated from their children. It's those arrested for crossing the border illegally, who then try to claim political asylum that create the problem. Minors can only be held for 20 days, and it usually takes longer than that to process even spurious claims for political asylum. Any separation of parent and child stems from the parent's criminal act, and as #152 noted, that constitutes a relatively small group compared to the number of unaccompanied minors.


Clapper is being dishonest by omission, no surprise...

The Trump administration has virtually shut down the process - forcing people to either camp out for days if not weeks or simply being told to go away.

But like members of the Trump administration, you're usually not going to find yourself wrong if you assume Clapper is lying - either directly or by omission.
   165. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5694752)
I understand that triggering the libs is half the fun of winning elections, but maybe if you've triggered Laura Bush enough to write an op-ed in Washington Post, you've gone too far?


Oh, I thought Laura Bush was the devil for killing someone with a car when she was 17. Now, she and "Dubya" are the toast of D Town.

You folks didn't trust their judgement then, so why are you now?

But in reading Laura's op-ed I don't actually see any solutions being proposed by her. Clearest sign that the person isn't equipped for a serious discussion about the issue.

The CBP itself has released photos of children in chain-link-fence-walled rooms sleeping with foil blankets. Is that going to help calm this news cycle down? Isn't there a better way to clamp down on unwanted immigration that doesn't involve such negative publicity?


The elites on the left and right want an open southern border and unlimited illegal immigration through there with the sole possible exception of felons. Trump and his supporters don't want that. So here we are.
   166. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5694753)
Uh-oh...
He's lost the Mooch...

“He has to step in there and has to end this thing because I think it is an inhumane and atrocious policy,” he told CNN’s Alisyn Camerota. “It is offensive to the average American…and does not represent American values.”


I don't see any proposed solution by Scaramucci in the text quoted there.
   167. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5694755)
You still think he and they are talking to you. He's not. He's talking to those who would support his regime in perpetuity.
???

Um, what? I am trying to analyze the political consequences of what I am seeing. That has zero to do with whatever the heck it is you are talking about. But yeah, good talk.


Nah, Sam's right, BM: Your sole function in this discussion has been to cheer lead the separation of children from their parents. Not because you like it, to be sure, but because you think it will cause the Republicans to lose in November. You haven't actually contributed anything of substance to the discussion because you don't understand the issues being discussed. Which is why you're reduced to high fiveing substantive posts made by other people on your side, as you did last night.
   168. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5694758)
Snopes does not buy Kirsten something's claim on this:

"No federal law required or suggested the family separation policy announced by Attorney General Sessions in several sets of remarks during April and May 2018."

"The rumors correctly suggested that “family detention” as a whole came before the Trump administration, but as of August 2015 intact families at the border were rarely separated."

(so she's left with a claim of a 314 pct increase in human trafficking, so we're just making sure these kids don't get smuggled in for a life of slavery. now, I'd have pitched that talking point a LOT sooner, regardless of its accuracy. we'll see.)

meanwhile, Jeff Sessions did NOT say: "if we inflict fear and pain on children, adults won’t want to come here."

he DID say: "If you’re smuggling a child, we’re going to prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you, probably, as required by law. If you don’t want your child to be separated, then don’t bring them across the border illegally."


..............

Snopes also offered a "mixture" result to this one:

"People who undergo amputations can sign paperwork allowing them to take the removed limbs home after the procedure."

it depends on the reason the amputation was required, basically. good to know!
   169. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5694763)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/18/trump-aides-plan-fresh-immigration-crackdowns-before-midterms-652246

Top aides to President Donald Trump are planning additional crackdowns on immigration before the November midterms, despite a growing backlash over the administration’s move to separate migrant children from parents at the border.


WH Rejects Bill To End Family Separations: We Don’t Want To ‘Just Tinker With It’

...and I'll repeat from the last page.

Rep. Will Hurd (R-Texas), whose rural district encompasses a third of the total length of the U.S.-Mexico border, said the policy “is something that is squarely within the hands of this administration to ultimately change” and that standalone legislation to end the family separation practice “would get north of 300 votes” in the House.

Asked whether such legislation might be forthcoming, Hurd told CNN that “you’d have to ask” GOP leaders on Capitol Hill and that neither of the immigration bills currently under consideration there appropriately address the family separation policy.


“What has happened for us to have to craft legislation to say don't pull kids out of the arms of their mothers? We shouldn't be at this point,” Hurd said. “In the land of the free and the home of the brave, we shouldn't be using kids for deterrence.”


Tell me again how much Trumpkins care about "proposed solutions".
   170. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5694764)
S. E. Cupp: This is no way to treat families

Cupp is not a Trumpkin, but is a rock solid conservative.


First thing to recognize and acknowledge: Absent cases of fraud or the like, parents are making the decision to inject their children into this situation. The administration is not simply plucking random families and separating them; these are families attempting to cross the border illegally. Which means that parents are making the decisions. Which means that the parents, assuming they are acting rationally -- and I think they are -- MUST feel that this is better for their children in the short term and/or in the long term from the situation THAT THE CHILDREN ARE COMING FROM -- *including* the decision to have the children make the dangerous trip to/through the border to begin with.

That's the starting point. That's what all of this flows from. Anyone interested in objectively analyzing this situation should start from a step prior to the administration being involved and acknowledge that parents are making these decisions -- almost certainly rationally even given the policies of the administration.

You may want to ask yourselves whether parents would voluntarily subject their children to A HOLOCAUST. And if your answer is no, then perhaps you might do well to acknowledge that while this is far from an ideal situation, it is also very far from a Holocaust. To compare it to such trivializes the Holocaust and disrespects the people who were subject to the Holocaust or affected by it -- and it gets people to tune you out, dismissing you and your arguments as utterly non-serious. Why you don't understand that is a great mystery.

But largely, as to the border situation, the children are being used as leverage to get the families into the US. I don't say that's a bad thing, just stating the fact. Facts seem to be in short supply in this emotional and hysterical discussion. As I said I think parents are acting rationally here in injecting their children into this situation. They're trying to find a better life for their children and families. (Ironic that they're running _towards_ the dictator while Zonk is fleeing him, but there you have it. Which should clue people in as to whether there's a dictator here but I digress.) Children and parents are often separated even in the best of times. When they go to school, for example. This is not that - but, then, this is not the Holocaust either.

Also: In cases of asylum the place to make an asylum claim is from a safe country. The way to make an asylum claim is not to try to cross the border illegally; it's to make it in a safe country, or, failing that, to make it at the border.

The administration is trying to deal with a chaotic situation that has been ramping up in recent years as families and children are coached by activists on how best to accomplish the goal of getting the entire family into the country. That's the first thing to recognize. Now, that outcome -- getting the entire family into the country -- is a good thing for the family. But go on record with your proposed solution, rather than engaging in histrionics.
   171. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5694766)
whoops, Wash Post gets our gal Kirstjen in hot water:

“The kids are being used as pawns by the smugglers and the traffickers,” Nielsen said.

She repeated a data point that she’d mentioned earlier, a data point that Nielsen suggested necessitated taking a zero-tolerance approach to families arriving at the border.

“Again, let’s just pause to think about this statistic: 314 percent increase in adults showing up with kids that are not a family unit,” she said. “Those are traffickers, those are smugglers, that is MS-13, those are criminals, those are abusers.”

The White House liked this line so much that it tweeted it out — but there’s important context missing. Those may be smugglers and abusers, but they are also only a tiny fraction of the family units apprehended during the period at issue.

"A spokesperson for DHS provided The Post with the hard numbers behind Nielsen’s statistic. There were 46 cases of fraud — “individuals using minors to pose as fake family units” — in fiscal year 2017, the period from October 2016 through September 2017. In the first five months of 2018, there were 191 cases.

That is an increase of 315 percent.... Even given the increased number of alleged smugglers this fiscal year and the decreased number of family units, those smugglers, those traffickers, those MS-13 members make up only 0.61 percent of the total number of family units apprehended at the border."


   172. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5694767)
Our Lordling is brimming with rage at everyone who isn’t a strong handsome leader like Donald Trump.
   173. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5694768)
No, and those applying for political asylum at their point of entry are NOT treated as criminals nor separated from their children. It's those arrested for crossing the border illegally, who then try to claim political asylum that create the problem. Minors can only be held for 20 days, and it usually takes longer than that to process even spurious claims for political asylum. Any separation of parent and child stems from the parent's criminal act, and as #152 noted, that constitutes a relatively small group compared to the number of unaccompanied minors.

Clapper is being dishonest by omission, no surprise...

The Trump administration has virtually shut down the process - forcing people to either camp out for days if not weeks or simply being told to go away.


Zonk is the one being misleading here. From the NYT's story he linked to in #164:
“Depending upon port circumstances at the time of arrival, individuals presenting without documents may need to wait in Mexico as CBP officers work to process those already within our facilities,” an agency spokesman said in a statement.

“No one is being denied the opportunity to make a claim of credible fear or seek asylum,” the spokesman added. “CBP officers allow more people into our facilities for processing once space becomes available or other factors allow for additional parties to arrive. This has been occurring intermittently as needed at several locations as well where the volume of arriving people exceeds the capacity of our facilities.”

That hardly justifies attempting to cross the border illegally. That the claims for political asylum are only being raised after the person is nabbed for illegally crossing would normally suggest that the claim may not be credible. The failure to take the shorter route to seek asylum in other Central American countries or Mexico might also suggest it isn't the prime motivation.
   174. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5694769)

"We have always separated criminals from their children" is a good* line. And shows *exactly* where the demarcation line is drawn. Is foreign person seeking asylum a criminal just for setting foot on US soil without a visa?
If they present themselves at the border and seek asylum, then no. If they sneak across the border, then yes; claiming asylum only after they're caught doesn't make their entry legal -- though it may be a defense to removal.
   175. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5694772)
Trump won't change. He may lose court battles. He may not get bills through Congress but he doesn't care. He won't change. His people won't change. So the idea behind the thinking that Trump won't change but his administration will is just plain weird. Like king louis Trump is the administration and the administration is trump. We will not reach a point in time when the AG or the DHS don't listen to him and follow his orders.
   176. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:57 PM (#5694775)
Amnesty International: "This is a spectacularly cruel policy, where frightened children are being ripped from their parent’s arms and taken to overflowing detention centers, which are effectively cages. This is nothing short of torture. The severe mental suffering that officials have intentionally inflicted on these families for coercive purposes, means that these acts meet the definitions of torture under both US and international law."


Again, I don't know why people think that the overwrought and hysterical language helps the cause. I think rational people who are just coming to this issue tune out when they read things like this. "Cruel," "ripped," "cages," "torture."

And replete with Nazi Germany references. A "Holocaust"... that Congress isn't interested enough in enough to act to stop. It's a rather poor way to make the case.
   177. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:58 PM (#5694778)

Oh, I thought Laura Bush was the devil for killing someone with a car when she was 17.
No, you didn't.
   178. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5694779)
I don't see any proposed solution by Scaramucci in the text quoted there.
To paraphrase Chief Justice Roberts: the way to stop doing it is to stop doing it.
   179. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5694781)
Since people are citing Dershowitz who is against Trump here, I wonder if they notice the point Dershowitz makes about the Holocaust comparisons.

He is right, of course. This is Holocaust denial:

Alan Dershowitz: Mr. President, please end the policy of separating children from parents


The image of a child being taken out of the arms of its mother cannot help but generate an emotional reaction. This reaction has caused exaggeration on both sides. Some opponents of the policy compare it to the Holocaust, equating detention centers with concentration and death camps. Though well intentioned, this comparison is a form of Holocaust denial, because it makes it seem that the Jews suffered no fate worse than those currently suffered by the children being temporarily removed from their parents.

On the other side, we see efforts to paint the detention centers as paradises for the children, with good medical care, clean rooms and child friendly atmosphere.

...

It is debatable whether this general border policy is entirely the fault of this administration, or goes back to earlier administrations. But that too, misses the point. Right now, this administration is allowing young children to be taken away from their arrested parents. The more important point is that President Trump, with one phone call or one signature, can stop the separation of children and parents right now – today.

Supporters of the policy claim that the president does not have this power. They are wrong. The president is the chief executive officer of the U.S. with the constitutional authority to see that the laws are properly executed.


   180. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5694782)
Again, I don't know why people think that the overwrought and hysterical language helps the cause.


import { EmpathyModule } from '@cns/humanity-devtools'
   181. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:05 PM (#5694784)
More platitudes. "Things can change" is not an argument. Neither Nixon nor W were leaders of a cult, the way Trump is.


He is no more a leader of a cult than Obama or BClinton was.

Clinton got his kool-aid drinkers to overlook sexual harassment and claims ranging from sexual assault to rape.

But since you mistakenly think Trump's followers are stupid you label them a cult. "People I disagree with" are not a cult. And if 63 million people are, then you're using a human definition of the word.
   182. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:05 PM (#5694785)
I'm still catching up on it, but this DHS Secretary's (Kirsten something) account of what is going on is so far afield from the general newsfeed out there that it's frightening. a lot of people have lost their minds - maybe both sides have, I don't know. can't wait for the Fact Checks on this one.


The most deplorable part of her presser was her claiming that no refugee seeker need enter the country illegally. That they merely need to go to a port of entry to make their claim. But the fact is, border patrol agents are stationed at all ports of entry denying access to all refugee claimants telling them to go back and come back another time. And that other time when they will be allowed to make their claim never arrives.
   183. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5694789)
It's a 7 minute NewsHour interview with no printed transcript as yet, but it's well worth hearing what Gil Kerlikowske, the former commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, has to say about the current policy of separating parents from their children at the border. There's a special place in Hell reserved for those who order and carry out this gratuitously inhumane policy.

'Unconscionable’ to put Border Patrol agents in position of separating families, former commissioner says
   184. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:15 PM (#5694792)
Though well intentioned, this comparison is a form of Holocaust denial, because it makes it seem that the Jews suffered no fate worse than those currently suffered by the children being temporarily removed from their parents.



That's a load of bullshit.

The first thing the Nazis did was separate families. That's not the only thing, or last thing, but it was the first thing.
At no point does anyone say that's the only thing that happened to the victims of the Nazis.

If we saw video of the children or their families being loaded into a train, and someone made a comparison to the trains Nazis used to move victims around, would you also say that it was a form of Holocaust denial because it implied that all the Nazis did was send people in trains for extended travel breaks?
   185. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5694793)
I'm still catching up on it, but this DHS Secretary's (Kirsten something) account of what is going on is so far afield from the general newsfeed out there that it's frightening. a lot of people have lost their minds - maybe both sides have, I don't know. can't wait for the Fact Checks on this one.

The most deplorable part of her presser was her claiming that no refugee seeker need enter the country illegally. That they merely need to go to a port of entry to make their claim. But the fact is, border patrol agents are stationed at all ports of entry denying access to all refugee claimants telling them to go back and come back another time. And that other time when they will be allowed to make their claim never arrives.

And as Gil Kerlikowske also points out in that interview I linked to in #183, those ports of entries are also backed up with ordinary travelers, tourists, and businessmen. Only a someone in Trump's hip pocket would ever take anything that Kirstjen Nielsen says seriously.
   186. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:18 PM (#5694794)
I think the kids are probably coached by their parents on what to say,

The parents they've separated from?


Adam Carolla plays this game "Stupid or liar."

Before they're separated.
   187. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5694797)
First thing to recognize and acknowledge: Absent cases of fraud or the like, parents are making the decision to inject their children into this situation.


I suppose cages are preferable to the conditions that they say they're escaping.

But - this is just a symptom of the cancerous rot that infects the Trumpkins.

It's closely paralleled by his Kim Jong Un handjobs, while western allies get damned.

It's no different than Trump getting pissed because drone strikes aren't taking out families.

For better than a century, it has been a virtual bipartisan, universal agreement that the US strives to measure itself by lofty ideals, not by merely rising a notch above the worst that modern nations have to offer. Of course the US hasn't always lived up to that.... and it has often lied about the extent to which it hasn't lived up to that.

As Churchill said - Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.

I hate you Trumpkins because I think you're raping to death the best part of the country.

One of the things that really struck me during my time north - and nothing against Canadians on this account - is that there's less of a feeling of that "shining city on a hill"... The humility on the international stage was refreshing, no doubt - but I have to admit that I missed the idea that there was something bigger, a higher, worldwide ideal that a nation can move the world towards.

Prior to Trump, I think it was a shared idea - even if there were significant disagreements about how to get there... the prior partisan divide.

I hate you Trumpkins because you haven't just tinkered with that - you outright and wholly reject it... you actually have reduced it all to rooting for laundry.
   188. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5694800)
Though well intentioned, this comparison is a form of Holocaust denial, because it makes it seem that the Jews suffered no fate worse than those currently suffered by the children being temporarily removed from their parents.


That's a load of bullshit.

The first thing the Nazis did was separate families. That's not the only thing, or last thing, but it was the first thing.
At no point does anyone say that's the only thing that happened to the victims of the Nazis.


This is an argument along the lines of "Both Hitler and Trump ate breakfast."

With the border situation you're sort of missing the whole "Holocaust" part.
   189. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5694803)
This is an argument along the lines of "Both Hitler and Trump ate breakfast."

With the border situation you're sort of missing the whole "Holocaust" part.


If we wait until they start gassing the kids, it's too late.

How can you not look at the images of children sleeping in cages on thin mattresses on the floor with mylar blankets and not be utterly ashamed of what we are doing? At the least, at the very ####### least we should be doing is housing them in more humane conditions. It would cost far less than a single Trump visit to Mar-a-Lago to provide them with decent bedding.
   190. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5694805)
If we wait until they start gassing the kids, it's too late.


This is why the label TDS applies, and will always be used.

You are simply not able to perceive reality.
   191. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5694806)
That hardly justifies attempting to cross the border illegally. That the claims for political asylum are only being raised after the person is nabbed for illegally crossing would normally suggest that the claim may not be credible. The failure to take the shorter route to seek asylum in other Central American countries or Mexico might also suggest it isn't the prime motivation.


The border crossing at Nogales has processed one asylum seeker in the last 2 days.
   192. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5694807)
If we wait until they start gassing the kids, it's too late.

That was what Zonk said before he fled the country ("THE PARALLELS!"). It was horeshit then, and it's horseshit now.
   193. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5694808)
That was what Zonk said before he fled the country ("THE PARALLELS!"). It was horeshit then, and it's horseshit now.


"We are not as bad as the Nazis." Hell of a slogan you got there.
   194. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5694809)
How can you not look at the images of children sleeping in cages on thin mattresses on the floor with mylar blankets and not be utterly ashamed of what we are doing? At the least, at the very ####### least we should be doing is housing them in more humane conditions. It would cost far less than a single Trump visit to Mar-a-Lago to provide them with decent bedding.


We've been over this. Trigger and own the libs by any means necessary.
   195. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5694810)
If we wait until they start gassing the kids, it's too late.



That was what Zonk said before he fled the country ("THE PARALLELS!"). It was horeshit then, and it's horseshit now.


No, what Zonk said is that he had no appetite for a flaming debacle that Trump would pump gasoline on should some national crisis occur.

However, it probably ought to be noted....

Hitler assumed the chancellorship in January 1933. The Night of the Long Knives occurred in July 1934. The Nuremberg Laws were not introduced until September 1935.

If you want to make the case that time and events move quicker nowadays, go ahead and make that case.

Doesn't change the fact that by this point in the Hitler regime - he was still Making Germany Great Again...
   196. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5694812)
How can you not look at the images of children sleeping in cages on thin mattresses on the floor with mylar blankets and not be utterly ashamed of what we are doing? At the least, at the very ####### least we should be doing is housing them in more humane conditions. It would cost far less than a single Trump visit to Mar-a-Lago to provide them with decent bedding.


These are horrible and irredeemable parents, subjecting their children to the beginning stages of a Holocaust.

Why do you suppose these parents are doing this?
   197. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:58 PM (#5694814)
Why do you suppose these parents are doing this?


Because there is no longer a functioning legal asylum process. Nogales has processed one case in 2 days.

Your call.


My call is that this is the most foreseeable self induced humanitarian crisis in the history of this country. Trump has all but shutdown the legal asylum process, leading thousands to try their hand the illegal way, and then throws those caught into jail and sends their kids to detention centers to live in, shall we say, less than ideal conditions. The images of children sleeping in cages on thin mattresses with mylar blankets will haunt this country for as long as this country lasts.
   198. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5694818)
But since you mistakenly think Trump's followers are stupid you label them a cult.
That's incorrect. I don't think Trump's followers are stupid; I think they're retarded and evil. But that's not why I label them a cult.
"People I disagree with" are not a cult. And if 63 million people are, then you're using a human definition of the word.
Voters != followers. (Note: the latter was your word; a revealing Freudian slip.)
   199. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 18, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5694819)
These are horrible and irredeemable parents, subjecting their children to the beginning stages of a Holocaust.

Why do you suppose these parents are doing this?


Unless you're claiming expertise in Salvadoran/Guatemalan/Honduran conditions my guess would be that the chance of making it into the US beats what they're escaping.

I'll repeat: Sometimes your children being 'safe' in a cage might beat the alternative.

The difference is that this idea didn't used to be accepted as "good enough".
   200. Lassus Posted: June 18, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5694824)
See, that's virtue signaling. You so much need to prove how much you hate someone that you characterize the mere act of interpreting what that person is saying as unacceptable.

No, I was talking about you directly, David. But that's a nice try. Are you in a mirrored room?
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