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Monday, June 18, 2018

OTP 2018 June 18: How Life Imitates the Congressional Baseball Game

“This game is a situation of which, you’re a product of your political success, so if you have a good political year, you have a good recruiting year for this game.” So said former Rep. David Bonior, D-Mich., many years ago about the Congressional Baseball Game and the teams each party gets to field.

Washington is host to the 2018 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, known among fans as the midsummer classic. But Capitol Hill has staged its own midsummer classic every year for more than five decades, the Congressional Baseball Game.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:15 AM | 1775 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   1501. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 23, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5698515)
Too bad the pop culture thread was nuked, because I would so rather talk about the Jon Snow/Ygritte wedding than any more Trump nonsense.
   1502. dlf Posted: June 23, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5698516)
#1501 - Then talk about Snow here. Not that I care about GoT, but I do find that the occasional side trip to movies, music, booze, squirrels vs. dogs, how much better UCF is than UF, the best way to prepare conch and other non-political asides to help mitigate against the growing trend towards playground taunting.
   1503. Srul Itza Posted: June 23, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5698525)
First Nielsen, now Sanders.

I will be particularly interested in seeing how it all plays out, if and when this Administration is shown the door.

There was De-Nazification in Gernmany in the 40's and De-Bathification in Iraq in the 2000's.

IF -- a big IF -- the Republicans do poorly in 2018 and again in 2020, will there be a round of De-Trumpification, where those who were most closely associated with Trump will be shunned and unable to find employment outside of Breitbart, Fox News and the like?

I hope not. I would not want to see them suffer endless ignominy and shame for their decision to support evil.

I would rather see them put up against a wall and dealt with, Ceaușescu-style. Much kinder that way.
   1504. Chicago Joe Posted: June 23, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5698532)
Can we just start a new pop culture thread? Why did it get nuked? Mayonnaise? Side sleepers vs back sleepers?
   1505. Spahn Insane Posted: June 23, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5698535)
I hope not. I would not want to see them suffer endless ignominy and shame for their decision to support evil.

I would rather see them put up against a wall and dealt with, Ceaușescu-style. Much kinder that way.


Dream big. No reason ignominy and shame can’t precede Option 2.
   1506. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 23, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5698538)
Sarah Sanders kicked out of a restaurant last night.

Only meal she's missed in decades, apparently. (Not that I couldn't stand to skip a few dozen myself.)
   1507. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5698543)
So fellow Republicans, should we ship the Statue of Liberty back to France or just file off the words at the bottom to restore it to it's original state.
Wait, when did Emma Lazarus serve on the Supreme Court?
   1508. perros Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5698547)
"I explained that the restaurant has certain standards that I feel it has to uphold, such as honesty, and compassion, and cooperation," Wilkinson recalled to The Post of her confrontation with Sanders. "I said, 'I'd like to ask you to leave.'"


Barring all politicians and their personnel will probably put her out of business, but good for her taking a stand.
   1509. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5698550)
Damon Linker:
If you wanted to ensure the eventual triumph of immigration restrictionism in the United States, you couldn't devise a surer path to that goal than getting the Democratic Party to explicitly embrace a policy of de facto open borders.

Unfortunately, this is precisely where the liberal reaction to President Trump's viciously harsh immigration policies is headed.

The trend has been underway for years. Immigrant and refugee activists have long made the case, on humanitarian grounds, that pretty much anyone seeking asylum should be granted it. In recent years, those arguments have gained considerable ground on the left and even on the center-left. Peter Beinart noted as much in an important piece for The Atlantic last summer that expressed concern about its possible negative electoral consequences for Democrats.

Many on the center-left responded angrily to the essay, asserting that any liberal or progressive program worthy of the name needs to treat citizens and non-citizens identically — a position that implies the moral illegitimacy of borders. This, in turn, inspired The New York Times' Ross Douthat to suggest, quite accurately, that "liberalism's current relationship to open borders is asymptotic: Not for it, but for every step toward it."

As David Frum notes in his own more recent and very powerful essay for The Atlantic, this tendency has been "turbocharged" by the Trump administration's "zero tolerance" policy along the southern border, and especially by its (now suspended) policy of separating parents and children when they are apprehended entering the country illegally. In reaction to the administration's brutality, liberals have moved further than ever in the direction of embracing the view that enforcing the distinction between those who enter the country legally and illegally, and punishing or deporting those in the latter category, is morally suspect. From there it is one small step to declaring and defending a right to the free movement of persons across borders.

Without even taking that last small step, the center-left's sweeping declarations of universal humanitarianism play into Trump's xenophobic hands by lending plausibility to his claim that he's defending the good of the country by combating "extremist open border Democrats."
Some of us still embrace the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Thanks to absolutists like Kamala Harris and Steve King, it will become harder to make that distinction in the years to come.
   1510. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5698551)
Too bad the pop culture thread was nuked, because I would so rather talk about the Jon Snow/Ygritte wedding than any more Trump nonsense.
Why was the thread terminated? It seemed fairly popular.
   1511. perros Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5698553)
The only way forward is to ditch the de facto, but Democrats love their fig leaves. Like with gay marriage, it'll take the courts to drag them into the future.
   1512. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5698555)
Some of us still embrace the difference between legal and illegal immigration.


And how do you feel about having to show your papers if you re within 100 miles of the border?

An agent heard her speaking Spanish and asked for her ID

The case: Ana Suda says what started as a late-night trip to buy eggs and milk took a surprising turn last week in Havre, Montana, about 35 miles from the US-Canada border. Suda says a Border Patrol agent heard her speaking Spanish, then stopped her in the store and asked to see her ID. In a video Suda recorded of the incident, she asks why she and her friend were singled out and accuses the agent of profiling.

"It has nothing to do with that," the agent tells her. "It's the fact that it has to do with you guys speaking Spanish in the store in a state where it's predominately English-speaking."

Suda says she and her friend were both born in the United States and were allowed to leave the gas station after about 40 minutes.


Are Republicans so far gone on this immigration thing that they are completely fine with "Your papers please" as the new normal?
   1513. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 23, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5698561)
Too bad the pop culture thread was nuked, because I would so rather talk about the Jon Snow/Ygritte wedding than any more Trump nonsense.


Contrary to what was written, it appear that Jon Snow does, in fact, know something ...
   1514. Lassus Posted: June 23, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5698565)
Nuked? I just thought it just fell off the sidebar. I was about to talk about some pop culture.
   1515. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5698567)
Are Republicans so far gone on this immigration thing that they are completely fine with "Your papers please" as the new normal?
For how many years has the Border Patrol had this expanded authority?

FTA:
Critics also claim checkpoints do little to help with immigration enforcement. They point to a recent General Accountability Office report which found only 2% of Border Patrol apprehensions occurred at checkpoints between fiscal year 2013 and 2016, and that 40% of drug seizures at checkpoints were 1 ounce or less of marijuana from US citizens.
Between fiscal year 2013 and 2016? Name that POTUS!
   1516. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 23, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5698569)
Was it the open-borders guy?
   1517. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5698572)
Scary news...

Katie Arrington, lawmaker who defeated Rep. Mark Sanford, seriously injured in deadly car collision:
South Carolina state Rep. Katie Arrington, the candidate who defeated incumbent Rep. Mark Sanford in the South Carolina GOP primary earlier this month, is in critical but stable condition after she was seriously injured in a vehicle crash, according to her campaign.

Spokesman Michael Mule told news outlets that Arrington has undergone surgery for her injuries and was recovering Saturday in a Charleston-area hospital. The Charleston County Sheriff's Office says Arrington and a friend were traveling southbound on U.S. Highway 17 around 9 p.m. Friday when another driver traveling in the wrong direction hit their vehicle.

Sheriff's Capt. Roger Antonio says the other driver died at the scene. ...

According to her Twitter account, Arrington's injuries apparently include a sustained fracture in her back, broken ribs, and other internal injuries that required major surgery. The main artery in her legs, according to her Twitter account, has a partial collapse that will require a stent. She will need more surgeries, and likely be hospitalized for two weeks.
Thoughts. Prayers. Get well soon.
   1518. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 23, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5698574)
Answering the important questions, such as, is water racist?
   1519. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 23, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5698575)
   1520. PreservedFish Posted: June 23, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5698577)
Nuked? I just thought it just fell off the sidebar. I was about to talk about some pop culture.


Nope, it got locked. If there's an explanation, I haven't seen it. With the slow trickle of baseball commentary, frankly it makes me want to quit the site entirely.
   1521. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 23, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5698579)
As David Frum notes in his own more recent and very powerful essay for The Atlantic, this tendency has been "turbocharged" by the Trump administration's "zero tolerance" policy along the southern border, and especially by its (now suspended) policy of separating parents and children when they are apprehended entering the country illegally. In reaction to the administration's brutality, liberals have moved further than ever in the direction of embracing the view that enforcing the distinction between those who enter the country legally and illegally, and punishing or deporting those in the latter category, is morally suspect. From there it is one small step to declaring and defending a right to the free movement of persons across borders.
Yeah, I expressed bewilderment earlier this year at the viciously negative reaction to Trump's Wall. (My comment was at about the time that Trump and congressional Dems actually seemed to be making some sort of steps towards a DACA compromise.) Despite the fact that a wall puts nobody in jail, deports nobody, many on the left seemed to view funding for the wall as anathema. As a libertarian, I can understand opposing wasteful government spending. But liberals don't care about that, so their objection seemed nonsensical. I mean, obviously for many on the left the word "Trump" is an inherent deal breaker; they would call for clubbing baby seals with the corpses of drowned puppies if Trump said he liked either animal. But it seemed more than that. They seemed to oppose the very idea of border security, to oppose a wall if it did work to keep people from sneaking across the border.
   1522. perros Posted: June 23, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5698580)
Y'know Jason has that ol' Clinton/Trump triangulation thing down, bashing you on the head as open border commies and then rightly pointing out how Democrats have unabashedly supported the apparatus that Trump has put to evil use. It's like if the German equivalent of Dems had built all thos concentration camps and then been apalled that Hitler put them to use.

How Centrists Failed Immigrants

The Roots of Trump's Barbarity


On the one hand, Favreau’s error is a hopeful one: liberals, politicians and ordinary Americans alike, are outraged at Trump’s unbridled racism and cruelty, rallying to the cause of DREAMers threatened with losing their legal authorization to remain in the United States, mobilizing at airports in defense of those targeted by the Muslim ban, and pushing their elected officials to resist deportations through state and local sanctuary measures.

But most every horrific measure taken by Trump has a policy precedent in similar, if less breathtakingly inhumane, actions taken by his establishment predecessors — predecessors who, alongside the nativist right and their mouthpieces on Fox News and talk radio, helped move the conservative Overton Window on immigration so far to the right that by November 2016 it perfectly framed Donald Trump.

The images and stories that have captured headlines in recent days depict a barbarically cruel anti-immigrant agenda from Trump, rightfully moving many to grief and anger and perhaps to action. But if we want to stop Trump’s deportation machine, we have to confront the key role Democrats played alongside establishment Republicans in creating it. It’s the only way to halt the spiral of anti-immigrant cruelty that brought us to the horrific images of family separation we see today.


   1523. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 23, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5698586)
I find this story infinitely more horrifying than the entire children-separated-from-parents story.
   1524. Count Posted: June 23, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5698588)
Gang murder, the holocaust - please let us know what else is worse than separating parents from children!
   1525. Count Posted: June 23, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5698590)
David, the wall is gross as symbolism (as a waste of money, well, we've done worse), but Democrats offered the wall to Trump as part of an immigration deal, and he turned it down after Miller and others got to him. There's no need to desperately grasp for an equivalent on the left to Trump's xenophobia and cruelty.
   1526. Srul Itza Posted: June 23, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5698593)
But it seemed more than that.


DN, internet psychic.

   1527. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 23, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5698595)
David, the wall is gross as symbolism


Which nation in the world allows free movement across borders?

If one agrees with the concept of a border one should have zero problem with The Wall other than cost. (Not that I support building it even if it did work. Utter waste of money. I've said I'd keep border security at current levels. OTOH if illegal immigration is a net loss for the US economically then one could argue for the wall on that basis, though I still wouldn't support it.)
   1528. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5698598)
World of walls: How 65 countries have erected fences on their borders – four times as many as when the Berlin Wall was toppled – as governments try to hold back the tide of migrants:
Globalisation was supposed to tear down barriers, but security fears and a widespread refusal to help migrants and refugees have fuelled a new spate of wall-building across the world, with a third of the world's countries constructing them along their borders.

When the Berlin Wall was torn down a quarter-century ago, there were 16 border fences around the world.

Today, there are 65 either completed or under construction, according to Quebec University expert Elisabeth Vallet. ...

From Israel's separation barrier (or 'apartheid wall' as it is known by the Palestinians), to the 2,500-mile barbed-wire fence India is building around Bangladesh, to the enormous sand 'berm' that separates Morocco from rebel-held parts of the Western Sahara – walls and fences are ever-more popular with politicians wanting to look tough on migration and security.
   1529. Stormy JE Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5698599)
   1530. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5698600)
I find this story infinitely more horrifying than the entire children-separated-from-parents story.


Take photos and videos of (1) family members crying at this victim's funeral vs (2) family members crying at the funeral of a old lady who died of natural causes and you will not be able to tell which is which.
   1531. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5698601)
If something gives you the sads Trumpkins, just remember your comforting words of comfort.

Womp womp

Womp womp, Trumpkins. Womp womp
   1532. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5698602)
Between fiscal year 2013 and 2016? Name that POTUS!


Therefore you are OK with the policy? That seems odd.
   1533. Chicago Joe Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5698603)
Nope, it got locked. If there's an explanation, I haven't seen it. With the slow trickle of baseball commentary, frankly it makes me want to quit the site entirely.


It, uh, appears that the last comments were something to the effect of calling Scott Walker a turd. Which is clearly too political for the delicate non-OTPers.
   1534. Chicago Joe Posted: June 23, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5698604)
sand 'berm' that separates Morocco from rebel-held parts of the Western Sahara

Was under the impression that Western Sahara is mostly sand anyway.
   1535. zenbitz Posted: June 24, 2018 at 01:37 AM (#5698611)
Wait, when did Emma Lazarus serve on the Supreme Court?


You never will get the difference between legal (Constitutional?) and moral, will you?
   1536. perros Posted: June 24, 2018 at 02:19 AM (#5698612)
Democrats offered the wall to Trump as part of an immigration deal


If Mexicans won't pay for the wall, Democrats will.
   1537. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:56 AM (#5698616)
Jason, I am legitimately curious what point or argument you are making in #1528.

Also, it's heartening to see you focusing on Joe Scarborough rather than on the position you are in.
   1538. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:13 AM (#5698617)
It, uh, appears that the last comments were something to the effect of calling Scott Walker a turd. Which is clearly too political for the delicate non-OTPers.



Seriously? What the ####?
   1539. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:14 AM (#5698618)
As a libertarian, I can understand opposing wasteful government spending. But liberals don't care about that

Fuck you. Fuck you for thinking you possibly have some better or more realistic idea than me how valuable money is and what it can to be used for. Fuck you, completely.
   1540. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:24 AM (#5698619)
Seriously? What the ####?

After 3600 comments, who on earth did that actually bother?
   1541. PreservedFish Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:36 AM (#5698621)
The only turd is whoever complained about a tame Scott Walker joke.
   1542. Greg K Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:07 AM (#5698624)
Which nation in the world allows free movement across borders?

All internal Schengen nations?

Though I suppose they have customs for non-Schengen flights at their airports.
   1543. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:23 AM (#5698625)
You never will get the difference between legal (Constitutional?) and moral, will you?
Morality means no borders? Please tell us more.

Baseball Crank has it right here:
US immigration policy before 1900 can't be meaningfully discussed without considering the presence of a frontier, the absence of a welfare state, & a sparsely populated country undergoing rapid growth.
   1544. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:27 AM (#5698626)
Jason, I am legitimately curious what point or argument you are making in #1528.
Like them or hate them, walls/barriers/fences are a common way to address migration concerns -- and terrorism, of course.

Also, it's heartening to see you focusing on Joe Scarborough rather than on the position you are in.
LOL. Quit your worrying. As usual, the hair-on-fire crowd is caught lying and then, when called on the carpet, lies some more.
   1545. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:22 AM (#5698628)
WHATABOUTISM ALERT:
US immigration policy before 1900 can't be meaningfully discussed without considering the presence of a frontier, the absence of a welfare state, & a sparsely populated country undergoing rapid growth.
But gun policy from 250 years, that shit is still air-tight, with no consideration of anything necessary or applicable.


Like them or hate them, walls/barriers/fences are a common way to address migration concerns -- and terrorism, of course.

America: Just as Shitty as Everyone Else has always been our goal.

Anyhow, looking at the current global border wall situation, your "LOOK EVERYONE'S DOING IT" is less compelling. YMMV.
   1546. McCoy Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:37 AM (#5698629)
Pop culture's thread time probably just ran out. Has anyone tried to start a new one?
   1547. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:44 AM (#5698633)

Also, it's heartening to see you focusing on Joe Scarborough rather than on the position you are in.

LOL. Quit your worrying. As usual, the hair-on-fire crowd is caught lying and then, when called on the carpet, lies some more.

Here's what the Red Cross said:
We share everyone's concern about the border situation and stand ready to help. We have offered assistance to federal gov't authorities, but without permission, we can't access facilities. Here’s a list of trusted organizations providing assistance:

Here's Scarborough's reply:
Trump’s Centralized State is even banning the Red Cross from visiting those infants and toddlers being incarcerated by Trump. What do Trump and Pence have to hide?

And here's the Red Cross's response:
This is not true, and we are sorry if our statement led you to this conclusion. We’ve had discussions with federal officials to see if there is a way we can help, but no one is “banning” us from anything, and if there is a role for the Red Cross to play, we will.

So first the Red Cross says they don't have permission to enter the holding facilities. Then Scarborough criticizes, not the Red Cross, but Trump. The Red Cross then clearly backtracks from its original statement.

And JE's conclusion, taken from one of his usual right wing (and in this case anonymous) sources? Scarborough has been caught lying!

Ladies and gentlemen, your Trump administration at work. Someone give JE a doggie treat for his faithful service.
   1548. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:52 AM (#5698638)
US immigration policy before 1900 can't be meaningfully discussed without considering the presence of a frontier,


So we can let immigrants in, but they can only live on land they’ve forcibly taken from whoever was living on it.

Sounds fair.
   1549. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:05 AM (#5698639)
Anyhow, looking at the current global border wall situation, your "LOOK EVERYONE'S DOING IT" is less compelling. YMMV.

Juannabout Hadrian's Wall!
   1550. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5698653)
Anyhow, looking at the current global border wall situation, your "LOOK EVERYONE'S DOING IT" is less compelling. YMMV.


And the open borders "movement" is not exactly a mainstream one. There are a whole host of reasons the Wall is a terrible idea. I know it won't help out Ray or JE, but heck I will list some (not all) of them.

1) It is expensive. Like really expensive.
2) For all that money it doesn't actually help anything, in fact it makes things worse.
3) Like out relations with Mexico, it makes that worse.
4) Like the lives of the people who live on the border, you know all those property owners filing suit to stop such construction.
5) It also harms wildlife. Building it does ecological damage and having it there causes more.
6) Again it doesn't actually help, because people overstaying visas is a very large source of illegal immigration, the wall doesn't help.
7) It really doesn't help when the border is a river, where exactly do you plan to build the wall along the Rio Grande? In the middle of it? Our side? Mexico's side?

Basically it will cost a huge amount of money, not really curtail immigration, and cause damage on a number of fronts. SO why exactly should Democrats support building it? Seriously, why? It hands Trump a political victory and hurts everything else, and some here are some obtuse that they are puzzled why Democrats are not eager to compromise?

No one is saying Trump's wall or build the illegal immigration highway. It is the current flawed but non-disastrous system or spend huge sums of money in order to give Trump a victory and make everything else worse. Hmmm, tough choice.
   1551. perros Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5698659)

Detention Center Presented As Deterent to Border Crossings

The Shame of America's Family Detention Camps

A return to immigration status quo is unacceptable. Trump has merely upped the ante on terrible laws and enforcement. Unlike Melania, if you care about immigrant children, you will fight for the decriminalization of border enforcement.
   1552. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5698661)
I literally have never in my life seen the trash from a bathroom or kitchen remodel dumped on a sidewalk.


It's not being dumped in your or BM's lily white cul-de-sac.
   1553. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5698663)
But to give him credit, when the fog in his head finally cleared, five days before the election, his reasoning couldn't have been more succinct. I wonder why Ray isn't quoting this:


Because a random Krauthammer column amongst the scores of columns he wrote over the decades had nothing to do with any point I was making.
   1554. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5698664)
I literally have never in my life seen the trash from a bathroom or kitchen remodel dumped on a sidewalk.

It's not being dumped in your or BM's lily white cul-de-sac.

Well, admittedly seeing refuse dumped in sight of the doorman would be a fitting message to residents of a Trump condo building.
   1555. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5698665)
Because a random Krauthammer column amongst the scores of columns he wrote over the decades had nothing to do with any point I was making.

Oh, you've got a point, all right. But if you combs your hair jes' right, nobody'll notice.
   1556. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5698666)
Krauthammer wasn't a NeverTrumper in any real sense,

He was a NeverTrumper in every real sense. You don’t get to make up your own personal definition of the term. It does not mean Democrat. It does not mean supporter of liberal policies. It does not mean “morally serious.” It means not voting for Trump. Period.


Nope. Not period, not even End Of Story. It means casting your vote in a way to ensure that Trump is not elected. Which indeed means voting for a Democrat -- and actively supporting the Democrat opposing Trump in the election.
   1557. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5698668)
Here, JE and Clapper can spin this to their hearts' content:

Trump advocates depriving undocumented immigrants of due-process rights
President Trump on Sunday explicitly advocated depriving undocumented immigrants of their due-process rights, arguing that people who cross the border into the United States illegally must immediately be deported without trial — and sowing more confusion among Republicans ahead of a planned immigration vote this week.

In a pair of tweets sent during his drive to his Virginia golf course, Trump described immigrants as invaders and wrote that U.S. immigration laws are “a mockery” and must be changed to take away trial rights from undocumented migrants.

“We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country,” Trump wrote. “When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents.”

The president continued in a second tweet, “Our Immigration policy, laughed at all over the world, is very unfair to all of those people who have gone through the system legally and are waiting on line for years! Immigration must be based on merit — we need people who will help to Make America Great Again!” ...

If nothing else, this will give Dershowitz and Turley a chance to show that they're not completely in the tank for Trump. Let's be thankful for small favors.

   1558. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:00 PM (#5698669)
R.I.P. Charles Krauthammer

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

You're a pathetic embarrassment. Krauthammer lived a more exemplary life than yours by many orders of magnitude. Just compare what he was doing and saying in his mid-40s -- and the way he went about doing it and saying it -- with what you're doing and saying and the way you're going about it.

Wow.


You're right, of course, SBB, but Sam is this board's equivalent of Peter Fonda. Fonda tweeted out some abhorrent things last week. But Fonda is an old man and the drugs probably caused him to take leave of his senses long ago. So nobody really pays attention when he says something crazy. That's Sam on this board, and the main reason why people don't take him to task for the things he says here: he's crazy.

To wish death on people on a near daily basis for holding ideological or political views different from your own speaks for itself.
   1559. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5698671)
[Krauthammer] was a NeverTrumper in every real sense. You don’t get to make up your own personal definition of the term. It does not mean Democrat. It does not mean supporter of liberal policies. It does not mean “morally serious.” It means not voting for Trump. Period.

Nope. Not period, not even End Of Story. It means casting your vote in a way to ensure that Trump is not elected. Which indeed means voting for a Democrat -- and actively supporting the Democrat opposing Trump in the election.

Ray gets it. George Will gets it. Maybe one of these years it'll trickle down to David** and JE.

** Who ironically got in back in 2016, when he said he'd vote for Hillary if he lived in a swing state.
   1560. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5698675)
So, OK... I will amend to say RIP to a NeverTrumper.

I don't recall Krauthammer ever announcing his preference in the 2016 general election but he definitely seemed #NeverTrump. After the vote and inauguration, he became a Trump skeptic, willing to give credit to Trump where due but overall not very pleased with the direction the party -- or country -- was going.


He, like many, didn't see a path of Trump to the presidency until well after that path became clear. He didn't want Trump to be president. But after it happened -- and before -- he analyzed Trump with a hinged and measured tone, being critical of Trump when he felt the analysis warranted it, and giving credit to Trump when he felt that analysis warranted that.

This is what is on virtually non-existent supply on the left: reasoned analysis of Trump. You almost cannot find it. And it can't exist. Because the left has in effect defined reasoned analysis of Trump as support for him.
   1561. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5698677)
Why are we still arguing about the definition of NeverTrump? Serious question, what is the point? It is a made up word about a short term political response that ended up being wildly ineffective.

Let's argue about the true meaning of phlogiston instead, it is more topical.

And yes this is directed at both sides of this disagreement.
   1562. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5698680)
Just how did I "rewrite" what Krauthammer said?

I didn't say that you rewrote what Krauthammer said. I said that you rewrote what NeverTrump means. NeverTrumpers, not you, get to define what NeverTrumpism is.


They did. And then they redefined it after he won the nomination.

Which showed that they both (a) completely failed to understand the electability of Trump due to their own version of ivory tower syndrome, and (b) were full of sh^t.

As to (b) it's possible that they believed it at the time but didn't know themselves well enough to know that their stated convictions weren't worth the slightest damn.
   1563. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5698682)
This is what is on virtually non-existent supply on the left: reasoned analysis of Trump. You almost cannot find it. And it can't exist. Because the left has in effect defined reasoned analysis of Trump as support for him.


Only Trumpkins can truly understand the genius of Trump, by definition. The Emperor has clothes, you just have to see them.
   1564. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5698708)
What David misses or fails to acknowledge (probably the former) is that NeverTrump did not mean supporting Democratic *policies*, just supporting the Democrat opposing Trump (i.e. Hillary). Basically under the theory that while Hillary was wrong about almost everything (in their view) she was wrong within normal parameters, whereas Trumpism would be an abject disaster. That necessitates supporting for and voting for Hillary.
   1565. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5698714)
What David misses or fails to acknowledge (probably the former) is that NeverTrump did not mean supporting Democratic *policies*, just supporting the Democrat opposing Trump (i.e. Hillary). Basically under the theory that while Hillary was wrong about almost everything (in their view) she was wrong within normal parameters, whereas Trumpism would be an abject disaster. That necessitates supporting for and voting for Hillary.

And for the umpteenth time I note that David did understand this during the general election campaign, when he said he'd vote for Hillary if he lived in a swing state. And credit where it's due, you just expressed the reasoning behind this choice** quite precisely and accurately, in particular the part about Trump being outside normal parameters.

** For those who seldom if ever had voted for a Democrat
   1566. perros Posted: June 24, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5698715)
Every discussion of immigration from the President and most Republicans begins with a lie intended to frame the question. Government statistics show clearly that immigrants, whether legal or not, do not increase crime rates. Full stop. Immigrants do not create crime. Undisputed data shows that immigrants actually commit crimes at a slightly lower rate than native-born American citizens. The entire security and safety argument is simply false. If we were truly concerned about public safety and wanted to address the issue through immigration policy we’d do better by inviting in more immigrants and booting citizens who are already here. It’s all a straight-up lie, the purported balancing of security and humane treatment. There are many legitimate immigration related policy questions. But controlling crime or safety or security is simply not one of them. It’s the foundational lie of the entire immigration debate.


With enemies like Democrats, Trump has no need of friends,
   1567. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5698717)
Not surprisingly, they were also of course wrong about Trump being an abject failure. The economy is doing well, no holocausts have been started, no nuclear wars have been started — the North Korea developments may be a zero but they’re not a negative. And in fact Trump has shown a willingness to learn from his mistakes and to listen to the public as we saw in last week’s border sotiation - which scares his critics which is why once Trump did what they wanted they had to criticize him anyway for the bizarre but telling faux critics of “caving” and “showing weakness.”
   1568. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5698718)
What David misses or fails to acknowledge (probably the former) is that NeverTrump did not mean supporting Democratic *policies*, just supporting the Democrat opposing Trump (i.e. Hillary).
What Ray misses, or lies about (like when he falsely claims he isn't an ardent Trumpkin) is that this is completely wrong. Of course NeverTrump didn't mean supporting Democratic policies -- thinking it does is a mistake that people on the left like Andy make -- but for the same reason it didn't mean supporting Hillary. Some NeverTrumpers did vote for Hillary. Others supported Johnson or McMullin. Others stayed home. All of those were NeverTrump positions.

Saying that you had to vote for Hillary to be a NeverTrumper is (a) incredibly stupid, since for people in the vast majority of states it didn't matter who they voted for; and (b) is a bad faith attempt at a gotcha.

NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period. In the typical election, there may be some bitter fighting during primaries, but after the primary everyone hugs and makes up and agrees to support the nominee. NeverTrump was the position that one was not going to take this typical path; if Trump won the nomination NeverTrumpers would refuse to fall in the proverbial line and support him. That's it. End of story.
   1569. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5698734)
Of course NeverTrump didn't mean supporting Democratic policies -- thinking it does is a mistake that people on the left like Andy make -- but for the same reason it didn't mean supporting Hillary. Some NeverTrumpers did vote for Hillary. Others supported Johnson or McMullin. Others stayed home. All of those were NeverTrump positions.

As was skipping the Presidential ballot line, but voting for most or all of the remaining GOP candidates. Write-in votes, too.
   1570. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5698758)
What Ray misses, or lies about (like when he falsely claims he isn't an ardent Trumpkin) is that this is completely wrong. Of course NeverTrump didn't mean supporting Democratic policies -- thinking it does is a mistake that people on the left like Andy make -- but for the same reason it didn't mean supporting Hillary. Some NeverTrumpers did vote for Hillary. Others supported Johnson or McMullin. Others stayed home. All of those were NeverTrump positions.


Only the first one -- voting for Hillary -- was a true NeverTrump position. And actually I can't think of a single NeverTrumper who actually voted for Hillary. (Can you?) But maybe there were a handful.

Obviously supporting Johnson or McMullin is not a NeverTrump position. The notion is preposterous. Neither of them had a snowball's chance in the opposite of heaven to win, so a vote for either of them could do nothing to stop Trump from winning. The only faithful NeverTrump position was to say "I disagree with Hillary's policies but I am going to support her and vote for her because Trumpism is not merely worse -- it's not even on the scale." To do anything else was a complete cop out and showed an utter lack of conviction and seriousness.

Voting for Johnson or McMullin or staying home is no different from what I did.

Saying that you had to vote for Hillary to be a NeverTrumper is (a) incredibly stupid, since for people in the vast majority of states it didn't matter who they voted for; and (b) is a bad faith attempt at a gotcha.


As to (a), that's why a necessary component was *supporting* Hillary once Trump won the nomination. It was for people in Bill Kristol's position who had the ear of a certain segment of Republicans/conservatives and thus who could potentially sway a few votes no matter the state to advocate for Hillary. That does not rely on any blue state / red state component.

NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period.


I see nothing about Never Voting For Trump in there. I see Never Trump.

In the typical election, there may be some bitter fighting during primaries, but after the primary everyone hugs and makes up and agrees to support the nominee. NeverTrump was the position that one was not going to take this typical path; if Trump won the nomination NeverTrumpers would refuse to fall in the proverbial line and support him.


But they have indeed supported him -- as Jason's own posts here show.
   1571. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5698767)
NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period.

Which may be how some "NeverTrumps" define the term, but if that's the case then "NeverTrump" has no effective meaning beyond the mildest form of virtue signaling. They might as well say that they're "NeverClinton" or "NeverHitler" for all the good they did in stopping Trump from becoming president, or from stopping Trump from doing what he's doing now.

But there's always hope that not all Republicans are as spineless as JE or Clapper. I'll let George Will describe how a more relevant NeverTrump philosophy might apply to this November's elections:
Amid the carnage of Republican misrule in Washington, there is this glimmer of good news: The family-shredding policy along the southern border, the most telegenic recent example of misrule, clarified something. Occurring less than 140 days before elections that can reshape Congress, the policy has given independents and temperate Republicans — these are probably expanding and contracting cohorts, respectively — fresh if redundant evidence for the principle by which they should vote.

The principle: The congressional Republican caucuses must be substantially reduced. So substantially that their remnants, reduced to minorities, will be stripped of the Constitution’s Article I powers that they have been too invertebrate to use against the current wielder of Article II powers. They will then have leisure time to wonder why they worked so hard to achieve membership in a legislature whose unexercised muscles have atrophied because of people like them.

Consider the melancholy example of House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (Wis.), who wagered his dignity on the patently false proposition that it is possible to have sustained transactions with today’s president, this Vesuvius of mendacities, without being degraded. In Robert Bolt’s play “A Man for All Seasons,” Thomas More, having angered Henry VIII, is on trial for his life. When Richard Rich, whom More had once mentored, commits perjury against More in exchange for the office of attorney general for Wales, More says: “Why, Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world . . . But for Wales!” Ryan traded his political soul for . . . a tax cut. He who formerly spoke truths about the accelerating crisis of the entitlement system lost everything in the service of a president pledged to preserve the unsustainable status quo.

Ryan and many other Republicans have become the president’s poodles, not because James Madison’s system has failed but because today’s abject careerists have failed to be worthy of it. As explained in Federalist 51: “Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place.” Congressional Republicans (congressional Democrats are equally supine toward Democratic presidents) have no higher ambition than to placate this president. By leaving dormant the powers inherent in their institution, they vitiate the Constitution’s vital principle: the separation of powers. ...

The Trump whisperer regarding immigration is Stephen Miller, 32, whose ascent to eminence began when he became the Savonarola of Santa Monica High School . Corey Lewandowski, a Trump campaign official who fell from the king’s grace but is crawling back (he works for Vice President Pence’s political action committee), recently responded on Fox News to the story of a 10-year-old girl with Down syndrome taken from her parents at the border. Lewandowski replied: “Wah, wah.” Meaningless noise is this administration’s appropriate libretto because, just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump attracts, and is attracted to, louts.

In today’s GOP, which is the president’s plaything, he is the mainstream. So, to vote against his party’s cowering congressional caucuses is to affirm the nation’s honor while quarantining him. A Democratic-controlled Congress would be a basket of deplorables, but there would be enough Republicans to gum up the Senate’s machinery, keeping the institution as peripheral as it has been under their control and asphyxiating mischief from a Democratic House. And to those who say, “But the judges, the judges!” the answer is: Article III institutions are not more important than those of Articles I and II combined.

EDIT: I'd say that Will owes Ray a coke, but Will actually wrote that column on Friday.
   1572. Jay Z Posted: June 24, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5698768)
NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period. In the typical election, there may be some bitter fighting during primaries, but after the primary everyone hugs and makes up and agrees to support the nominee. NeverTrump was the position that one was not going to take this typical path; if Trump won the nomination NeverTrumpers would refuse to fall in the proverbial line and support him. That's it. End of story.


I have no idea what "NeverTrump" actually says. I'll never vote for Trump? Or Trump should never be the president, and I'll do everything to make sure that doesn't happen? Obviously, a lot of people meant the former. The most effective method to insure Trump didn't get elected would have actually been a vote for Hillary Clinton.

How big an impact what a "NeverTrumper" did is open to debate. Let's take Wisconsin as an example. Obama beat Romney by 213,000 votes in 2012. Trump did get more votes in Wisconsin than Romney in 2012, about 2,000 more. Hillary got 239,000 fewer votes than Obama 2012. So Trump won the state by 27,000.

What happened to the votes? The 3rd party vote was way up. 39,000 in 2012 to 188,000 in 2016. So what's the biggest impact?

Obama 2012 to 3rd party 2016 - 149,000
Obama 2012 to not voting 2016 - 92,000
Obama 2012 to Trump 2016 - 2,000

Now I don't doubt that Trump got more than 2,000 people to switch. But the final totals are all that matters. No doubt some Romney 2012 votes were Clinton 2016 voters.

Anyway, clearly in Wisconsin NeverTrump didn't matter. I am taking NeverTrump to be Romney 2012 voters. That didn't decide Wisconsin. Also don't care about 3rd Party 2012 voters. Consider that dedicated 3rd party. Wisconsin was decided by Obama 2012 voters voting 3rd party or staying home. 3rd Party was the bigger chunk. Yes, it mattered, if you hate Trump, and voted Obama 2012, if you couldn't stomach Hillary either and voted 3rd party. Those votes should have been a lot easier to get for Hillary, for any Dem 2016, than what happened. Blame Obama 2012/3rd Party 2016 for Trump.
   1573. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5698769)
But there's always hope that not all Republicans are as spineless as JE or Clapper. I'll let George Will describe how a more relevant NeverTrump philosophy might apply to this November's elections:


Clapper was never NeverTrump.

IIRC during the primaries he said Trump wasn't his preferred candidate, but he never went beyond that.

Clapper is the typical "fall in line behind the nominee" Republican that David spoke of above.
   1574. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5698783)
But gun policy from 250 years, that #### is still air-tight, with no consideration of anything necessary or applicable.
The Second Amendment. How does it work?
   1575. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5698785)
So first the Red Cross says they don't have permission to enter the holding facilities. Then Scarborough criticizes, not the Red Cross, but Trump. The Red Cross then clearly backtracks from its original statement.
FFS, Andy, not having permission != banned.

You really need to remember to take your meds in a more timely manner.
   1576. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5698786)
No one is saying Trump's wall or build the illegal immigration highway.
No one here? Hysterical. Have you read Andy, count, and TDF, just to name three posters?

And the funny thing is neither Ray nor I are champions of a wall across our entire southern border, although I'm in favor of extending it in certain places.
   1577. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5698787)
Or do the incredibly unthinkable and accurately report what's going on

Screaming children are indeed being removed from their parents and have been sent to foster centers thousands of miles away. There are reports of no records or no plans set up to return. This HAS been accurately reported. Who would you like to ##### at in response instead of addressing the issue?


I agree with Lassus here in that the directional of the Time photo and the general story it represented was accurate -- just like a lot of Trump's lies are. And so it is of no real moment that this particular family's story was misrepresented by Time.

Now, why Time felt the need to lie when they could have found scores of photos of children crying after being separated from their parents in day care detention centers is left as an exercise for the reader. Maybe the left now really _isn't_ so much better on the honesty scale than Trump is.
   1578. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5698788)
Trump advocates depriving undocumented immigrants of due-process rights
Good luck with that constitutional amendment.
   1579. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5698789)
To wish death on people on a near daily basis for holding ideological or political views different from your own speaks for itself.
And it's not only Sam. Srul the Shrill yesterday urged that anyone who serves or has served in the Trump administration be dragged in front of a firing squad and executed.
   1580. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5698790)
Why are we still arguing about the definition of NeverTrump? Serious question, what is the point?
Thank you.
   1581. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5698791)
And it's not only Sam. Srul the Shrill yesterday urged that anyone who serves or has served in the Trump administration be dragged in front of a firing squad and executed.


I have Srul on ignore so I didn't see this one.
   1582. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5698792)
But there's always hope that not all Republicans are as spineless as JE or Clapper. I'll let George Will describe how a more relevant NeverTrump philosophy might apply to this November's elections:
So basically Will's view is the best way to defeat Trump is to vote out Republicans not named Trump? So let's make the Cernoviches and Huckabees within the GOP even more powerful?

BRILLIANT.
   1583. spycake Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5698794)
Kitchen or bathroom remods are not "demolishing homes." They produce debris that fits in the back of a pickup and can be dumped. And a ton of that work is done by illegal immigrants.


Demolition isn't the only part of remodeling that generates waste. Is each subcontractor responsible for disposing of their own job waste? I have never seen that. Every remodel that I have seen, or been a part of, the general contractor puts out a dumpster or "bagster" at the start of the project, which is used first by the demo guys, then the framers, drywall guys, plumbing/electrical, tilers, etc., until the end of the project. And the dumpster/bagster disposal rate is usually a flat fee, so nothing would be gained by leaving out the demo waste.

I have no doubt that trash gets dumped in some contexts, but this one seems dubious. And dumpers tend to just use someone else's dumpster -- finding one of those is generally easier than finding a secluded roadside, in all but rural contexts.
   1584. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5698796)
I'm shocked (SHOCKED) that Andy neglected to share this breath of fresh sanity from today's WaPo...

Let the Trump team eat in peace:
It’s not a new tactic for protesters of one sort or another to target a public official’s home or private life. But never-at-rest social media have blurred the line between work hours and private time. Cellphone cameras make it ever easier to intrude and broadcast.

Most obviously, passions are running high. Those who defend the Red Hen staff, or Ms. Nielsen’s hecklers, say this is no ordinary policy dispute. Mr. Trump has ordered terrible violations of human rights at the border, he is demonizing immigrants by his actions and his rhetoric, and people need to speak up however they can.

They will get no argument from us regarding Mr. Trump’s border policy, and when it comes to coarsening the debate, he is the prime offender. The poisonous fruits could be seen, as it happens, Saturday morning in a vile tweet from Ms. Sanders’s father, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, that associated House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, with the vicious MS-13 gang.

We nonetheless would argue that Ms. Huckabee, and Ms. Nielsen and Mr. Miller, too, should be allowed to eat dinner in peace. Those who are insisting that we are in a special moment justifying incivility should think for a moment how many Americans might find their own special moment. How hard is it to imagine, for example, people who strongly believe that abortion is murder deciding that judges or other officials who protect abortion rights should not be able to live peaceably with their families?

Down that road lies a world in which only the most zealous sign up for public service. That benefits no one.
   1585. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5698797)
Hmmm, I forgot to include David Frum in the list of names Andy cites as so utterly brave center-right types.

So what's David been up to lately?

...

The policy of family separation could be brought to an end in one of two ways. The first is to do what Senator Ted Cruz has proposed: Hold those apprehended crossing the border illegally together with their children until they can be removed from the country as a family. Accomplishing that would require both authorizing new facilities and revising court-ordered rules that forbid the detention of children in immigration facilities.


Er, yes, I mentioned both of those as problems earlier.

What many immigration advocates have in mind when they oppose “family separation” is preserving family unity by releasing the whole family together into the United States, pending a court date a year or two in the future. Ali Noorani, the executive director of the National Immigration Forum, has stated this demand: “Congress must explicitly end and prevent family separation and the indefinite detention of children.” If the children are not to be detained and the family not to be separated, the only alternative is to release the whole family into the United States until their application for asylum is resolved.


Yes, I predicted this in post 905 when I discussed Trump's executive order last week:

2. I put "solved" in scare quotes because the executive order merely trades one crisis for another. Children don't belong in cages at all, even *with* their parents. And so the next round of this will be for people to cry out that kids are being held at all. The argument will go: children and parents cannot be separated, and children cannot be jailed; this necessitates releasing the children *and* their parents together, or not arresting the parents to begin with.


(Strikingly, asylum claims are rising—up 58 percent over 2016—even as violence has steeply declined in Honduras and Guatemala.)


As noted previously.

The sheer number of these claims is choking the American capacity to respond to them. Each claim must get an individual hearing. The facts are often complicated, since some of those expressing fear of criminal gangs were themselves previously involved in those gangs in one way or another. It takes longer and longer to adjudicate cases: a median of 43 days in fiscal 2006, 286 days in fiscal 2015, and almost certainly much longer than that by now. While something like 60 percent of asylum claims are rejected, a rejected asylum claim does not easily translate into a repatriated asylum claimant. ...


Right. This is another part of the issue.

Writing in The Atlantic a year ago, my colleague Peter Beinart remarked on the increasingly unanimous opposition among Democrats to any form of immigration enforcement at all. “An undocumented alien is not a criminal,” Senator Kamala Harris protested last year. That view has been turbocharged over the past week. ...

Trump and his brutish methods are radicalizing his opponents. But those opponents still retain the choice not to be radicalized. The spreading view that immigration is a civil right and that immigration enforcement is totalitarian is an attack on democratic legality. It subordinates rules and norms to desires and passions. It is also a corrosion of the ideal of a constitutional state.


And this is why I said the other day that the immigration "debate" is over. The left has won it. Folks opposing the left's view of this are branded as racists. Once that happens people don't want to voice opposing views anymore and there is no meaningful debate to be had.
   1586. perros Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:15 PM (#5698802)
I have zero interest in voting (for Democrats) to enact the US regime's white supremicist policies. Take a stand against the usual political horseshit and you've got my support.

I won't hold my breath waiting for Hillary Clinton and her ilk to take their first principled stand, let alone for ILLEGALS.
   1587. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:20 PM (#5698804)
And this is why I said the other day that the immigration "debate" is over. The left has won it. Folks opposing the left's view of this are branded as racists. Once that happens people don't want to voice opposing views anymore and there is no meaningful debate to be had.
You're claiming the left has won because those who disagree with them are branded as racists? Seriously?

For a dude who claims to have foreseen the 2016 election outcome from his Manhattan apartment building perch, this is a strikingly bizarre conclusion.
   1588. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5698805)
As a libertarian, I can understand opposing wasteful government spending. But liberals don't care about that

#### you. #### you for thinking you possibly have some better or more realistic idea than me how valuable money is and what it can to be used for. #### you, completely.


Except that the fundamental difference between liberals and libertarians on spending is not what the money is specifically being used for but is the fact that liberals want to (tax and) spend X and libertarians want to (tax and) spend a fraction of X. The battles over _what_ the money is being used for flow from that starting point.
   1589. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5698811)
You're claiming the left has won because those who disagree with them are branded as racists? Seriously?

For a dude who claims to have foreseen the 2016 election outcome from his Manhattan apartment building perch, this is a strikingly bizarre conclusion.


The upper west side of Manhattan is actually a good litmus test for this. Once you can't voice your opinion to that crowd without being deemed a racist, the issue is lost. It can't be discussed honestly anymore. And honorable people don't want to be branded racists so they keep their true opinions to themselves. Yes, it's dishonorable people who brand people with different ideological views than them as racists but that doesn't change what happens. The dishonorable people know full well what they're doing. They know it's very effective. In this way they identify and exploit the main vulnerability of honorable people.
   1590. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5698814)
Obama DHS Sec. Jeh Johnson ‘Freely Admits’ They Detained Children, Families: ‘We Believed It Was Necessary’:
“Without a doubt the images, and the reality, from 2014, just like 2018, are not pretty,” said Johnson. “We expanded it, I freely admit it was controversial, we believed it was necessary at the time, I still believe it is necessary to remain a certain capability for families.”

Johnson also addressed another phrase that has come up many times in the last week, saying directly that “we can’t have catch and release” and stating that under his DHS in the Obama administration they “deported or repatriated” over a million people.
Say, when was the last time a woke restaurant owner told Johnson to pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top get the #### out of her dining establishment?
   1591. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5698817)
The upper west side of Manhattan is actually a good litmus test for this. Once you can't voice your opinion to that crowd without being deemed a racist, the issue is lost. It can't be discussed honestly anymore. And honorable people don't want to be branded racists so they keep their true opinions to themselves. Yes, it's dishonorable people who brand people with different ideological views than them as racists but that doesn't change what happens. The dishonorable people know full well what they're doing. They know it's very effective. In this way they identify and exploit the main vulnerability of honorable people.
As I said, your reasoning is way bizarre. This was also true in October 2016.
   1592. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5698820)
I'm shocked (SHOCKED) that Andy neglected to share this breath of fresh sanity from today's WaPo...

Let the Trump team eat in peace:

It’s not a new tactic for protesters of one sort or another to target a public official’s home or private life. But never-at-rest social media have blurred the line between work hours and private time. Cellphone cameras make it ever easier to intrude and broadcast.

Most obviously, passions are running high. Those who defend the Red Hen staff, or Ms. Nielsen’s hecklers, say this is no ordinary policy dispute. Mr. Trump has ordered terrible violations of human rights at the border, he is demonizing immigrants by his actions and his rhetoric, and people need to speak up however they can.

They will get no argument from us regarding Mr. Trump’s border policy, and when it comes to coarsening the debate, he is the prime offender. The poisonous fruits could be seen, as it happens, Saturday morning in a vile tweet from Ms. Sanders’s father, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, that associated House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, with the vicious MS-13 gang.

We nonetheless would argue that Ms. Huckabee, and Ms. Nielsen and Mr. Miller, too, should be allowed to eat dinner in peace. Those who are insisting that we are in a special moment justifying incivility should think for a moment how many Americans might find their own special moment. How hard is it to imagine, for example, people who strongly believe that abortion is murder deciding that judges or other officials who protect abortion rights should not be able to live peaceably with their families?

Down that road lies a world in which only the most zealous sign up for public service. That benefits no one.


I can't say I disagree with the sentiment, but if I were channeling Team Trump's response to the protests against their Zero Tolerance policy I'd simply say I REALLY DON'T CARE, DO U?

And BTW are you in agreement with that highlighted part of the editorial?
   1593. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5698821)
The Second Amendment. How does it work?


It's not absolute, and I know that because I cannot buy a machine gun. All we are doing is haggling over price, so please stop saying "Second Amendment" as if that is supposed to be the final word.
   1594. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5698822)
And BTW are you in agreement with that highlighted part of the editorial?
At this juncture, both sides are more or less equally offensive. Huckabee should be exiled to the same cave in Hawaii housing Srul.
   1595. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5698823)
No one here? Hysterical. Have you read Andy, count, and TDF, just to name three posters?


Yes I have and you are misrepresenting their opinions. This surprises no one. As I have said before, and you ignored before, so kudos for consistency, the open borders crowd is a tiny segment largely unrepresented in mainstream politics (including the Democratic Party). And yet weirdly that is the only group you feel able to argue with. I don't blame you though, it makes sense.

And the funny thing is neither Ray nor I are champions of a wall across our entire southern border, although I'm in favor of extending it in certain places.


Gee are we arguing against YOUR wall plan? Ray's wall plan? No, we are not, because you guys have not released such, and despite your support for Trump are nobodies on the internet.

We are arguing against Trump's wall plan. You know the dumb one I talked about in my post. You ignored that part, but feel free to go back and read it, and then go ahead and defend Trump's wall plan (tantrum).
   1596. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5698824)
It's not absolute, and I know that because I cannot buy a machine gun. All we are doing is haggling over price, so please stop saying "Second Amendment" as if that is supposed to be the final word.
Agreed, but it's stooopid for anyone to contend there's a constitutional right to immigration.
   1597. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5698825)
I REALLY DON'T CARE, DO U?


I couldn't figure out what her jacket was supposed to mean -- or even if she meant it as a message at all.
   1598. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5698826)
Gee are we arguing against YOUR wall plan? Ray's wall plan? No, we are not, because you guys have not released such,


I certainly have. My already stated wall plan is not to build one, and to keep border security at current levels.
   1599. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5698828)
Yes I have and you are misrepresenting their opinions. This surprises no one. As I have said before, and you ignored before, so kudos for consistency, the open borders crowd is a tiny segment largely unrepresented in mainstream politics (including the Democratic Party). And yet weirdly that is the only group you feel able to argue with. I don't blame you though, it makes sense.
Say what? Count and TDF were here on Friday asserting with a straight face that all foreigners who enter this country ILLEGALLY should roam free inside the country while their asylum cases are pending. That's as close as it gets to open borders without blaring your support from a boom box. And Andy has yet to meet an illegal he'd like to see removed from the country -- except for those who have been convicted of manslaughter or those he catches acting disinterested while he's telling them all about watching Tom Tresh playing at Old Yankee Stadium.
   1600. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5698829)
And BTW are you in agreement with that highlighted part of the editorial?

At this juncture, both sides are more or less equally offensive.


Yeah, I suppose that a few assorted restaurant owners are the equivalent of a president, his closest advisors, his serially lying press secretary and her father, and pretty much every other spokesman that Trump sticks out there. That's some world class equivalence, all right.

Once again, you and Kushner and Stephen Miller and David Friedman are just lucky that Trump wasn't president when your ancestors stepped off the boat at Ellis Island. Not that it would ever occur to you to reflect upon that.
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