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Monday, June 18, 2018

OTP 2018 June 18: How Life Imitates the Congressional Baseball Game

“This game is a situation of which, you’re a product of your political success, so if you have a good political year, you have a good recruiting year for this game.” So said former Rep. David Bonior, D-Mich., many years ago about the Congressional Baseball Game and the teams each party gets to field.

Washington is host to the 2018 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, known among fans as the midsummer classic. But Capitol Hill has staged its own midsummer classic every year for more than five decades, the Congressional Baseball Game.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:15 AM | 1775 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   1601. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5698830)
Agreed, but it's stooopid for anyone to contend there's a constitutional right to immigration.


Would you agree that everyone in this country has a constitutional right to due process?
   1602. Count Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5698831)
JE misunderstood me - I said the wall was gross and stand by that, and pointed out that it was offered by the Dems as part of a deal which Trump then turned down after Miller and others got to him. I'm fine with trading it as part of a deal; I am annoyed that people here and elsewhere repeatedly attack Democrats for not being willing to give up this symbolic concession when in fact they were.

Ray is wrong about the immigration discussion writ large moving to the left in an understandable way, as he sees everything from the perspective of an aggrieved Trump fan living in a very liberal area. On the left wing and among democrats, the immigration discussion has moved to the left. Among people with power, namely the White House and Congress, the immigration discussion has moved way to the right. We have a strong economy, low crime, and declining immigration, but our president and his followers are racist and deeply and irrationally anti-immigrant, so the White House is pushing for significant cuts to legal immigration and asylum and refugees, Republicans keep running racist campaigns playing up MS-13 during their primaries and to a lesser extent during general elections, we are further than ever from the immigration compromise that a minority of House republicans shut down during the Obama years, and a third of the country is willing to defend an intentionally cruel policy of family separation.
   1603. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5698833)
Say what? Count and TDF were here on Friday asserting with a straight face that all foreigners who enter this country ILLEGALLY should roam free inside the country while their asylum cases are pending.


Would you agree that putting ankle monitors on them rather than detaining them and by necessity taking away their children is a reasonable compromise?* The former head of ICE claims that ankle monitors have proven 96%-99% effective in getting illegals to show up for their asylum hearings.

*And far, far cheaper.
   1604. Count Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5698834)
Say what? Count and TDF were here on Friday asserting with a straight face that all foreigners who enter this country ILLEGALLY should roam free inside the country while their asylum cases are pending. That's as close as it gets to open borders without blaring your support from a boom box. And Andy has yet to meet an illegal he'd like to see removed from the country -- except for those who have been convicted of manslaughter or those he catches acting disinterested while he's telling them all about watching Tom Tresh playing at Old Yankee Stadium.


Per usual JE you are callously ignorant here. As I wrote many times, many asylum applicants currently are allowed to and do live freely and work while their cases are pending. You are the one proposing a radical change. And you want them to be detained for years or to shorten asylum proceedings to 2-4 weeks because you don't care about people seeking asylum at all and/or because you have zero understanding of how long preparing a real case can take.
   1605. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:13 PM (#5698835)
And Andy has yet to meet an illegal he'd like to see removed from the country, unless they've been convicted of manslaughter or catches them acting disinterested while he's telling them all about watching Tom Tresh at Old Yankee Stadium.

JE, you've now sunk to the point where you're simply parroting David and Ray. If you're going to misrepresent my opinions on immigration, at least have the grace to think of a few original lies.

I was perfectly fine with supporting the Gang of 8's bill that passed the Senate with a bipartisan majority of 68 to 32, as was your former preferred candidate, Marco Rubio. You should really apply for the forthcoming job of Donald Trump's Official Historian, because at your rate of lying it's a job you'll be perfectly suited for.

And FTR I'm assuming you meant uninterested, not "disinterested". Did you graduate from one of Michael Cohen's correspondence school colleges?
   1606. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5698836)
Would you agree that everyone in this country has a constitutional right to due process?
Yup.
   1607. perros Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5698837)
Among people with power, namely the White House and Congress, the immigration discussion has moved way to the right.


Thanks Obama!
   1608. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5698838)
Would you agree that putting ankle monitors on them rather than detaining them and by necessity taking away their children is a reasonable compromise?* The former head of ICE claims that ankle monitors have proven 96%-99% effective in getting illegals to show up for their asylum hearings.

You've yet to provide any substantiation that this applies to those with a high flight risk. Illegal border crossers can just cut off their ankle bracelet and be in the same position they were before they were apprehended. Why would they not?
   1609. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5698841)
You've yet to provide any substantiation that this applies to those with a high flight risk. Illegal border crossers can just cut off their ankle bracelet and be in the same position they were before they were apprehended. Why would they not?


Take it up with former ICE director John Sandweg who claims otherwise. I cannot, nor do I desire to disprove your wild assertions.
   1610. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5698842)
Per usual JE you are callously ignorant here. As I wrote many times, many asylum applicants currently are allowed to and do live freely and work while their cases are pending.
Do you believe that all illegal immigrants who apply for asylum should be allowed into the country without any encumbrances while their case is pending?
   1611. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5698844)
I was perfectly fine with supporting the Gang of 8's bill that passed the Senate with a bipartisan majority of 68 to 32, as was your former preferred candidate, Marco Rubio. You should really apply for the forthcoming job of Donald Trump's Official Historian, because at your rate of lying it's a job you'll be perfectly suited for.
Way to duck, Andy. You might have backed the Gang of 8 bill as an interim measure but what's your overall view of illegal immigration? For example: If cost weren't an issue, would you still be strongly opposed to a border fence designed to prevent the thousands of foreigners who enter the country illegally each year? If so, why?

And I'll ask you the same question I posed to count: Do you believe that all illegal immigrants who apply for asylum should be allowed into the country without any encumbrances while their case is pending?
   1612. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5698845)
To Andy, count, Misirlou, etc.

Have you seen this?

Man detained by immigration officers after delivering pizza to Army base:
(CNN)A pizza delivery man could soon be deported after he was turned over to immigration officials after trying to drop off food at a military base in New York.

Pablo Villavicencio, 35, arrived at the Fort Hamilton base in Brooklyn last week to deliver an order from the brick-oven pizza restaurant in Queens where he worked. He showed his New York City identification card to the guard as he had done several times before, but it wasn't enough this time, his wife says.

Villavicencio, an undocumented immigrant from Ecuador, didn't have a "valid Department of Defense identification" and was asked to get a daily visitors pass, Fort Hamilton said in a statement.

He ended up "signing a waiver permitting a background check," which revealed there was an active warrant for Villavicencio's deportation and prompted military police to call immigration agents, the base and Immigration and Customs Enforcement said.

"He was doing his job, he wasn't committing a crime," his wife, Sandra Chica, told reporters. "He wasn't doing anything illegal other than working to support his two daughters."

Chica said her husband could be deported to Ecuador as early as next week. ...

Villavicencio had filed for his green card in February and was waiting for a response when he was detained, Chica says.

He is married to Chica, a United States citizen, and they have two young daughters who were born in the United States.

An ICE spokeswoman said his application for a green card wouldn't prevent his deportation.

An immigration judge had ordered Villavicencio's deportation in 2010 after he overstayed his visa, ICE said in a statement.

He was initially ordered to leave without an official deportation order on his record but when he failed to leave the country, he was issued a final order of removal -- an order from a judge that a person can be deported and has no more appeals left.
Should this dude be removed from the country? If not, why?
   1613. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:41 PM (#5698847)
Ragıp Soylu:
#BREAKING Turkish main opposition candidate Muharrem Ince concedes the election to Erdoğan, “I accept that Erdoğan has won. Even though the race wasn’t fair, but he has won”
I'm not surprised that RTE avoided a runoff.

OTOH, I'm quite surprised his coalition won a clear majority in the parliament.

EDIT: Erdogan received 52+% of the vote.
   1614. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5698848)
what could go wrong?


HowardKurtz
‏Verified account @HowardKurtz
56s57 seconds ago

Maxine Waters says people should tell Trump Cabinet members they're not welcome in stores, restaurants, gas stations. This is dangerous stuff
   1615. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5698850)
I really don't care, do you?

   1616. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5698851)
I am a never Trumper. I supported Kasich in the primaries and sent him money. I would have happily voted for Bush if he had won. I live in NY, so I felt free to vote for Johnson, because my vote meant nothing. The only thing that would have given me pause was if Bernie had been the Democratic nominee. That would have been bad too. If I lived in PA, I would have voted for Hillary (while holding my nose.) If I lived in PA and it was Bernie Trump, I would have voted for Johnson.
   1617. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5698852)
Maxine Waters says people should tell Trump Cabinet members they're not welcome in stores, restaurants, gas stations. This is dangerous stuff

That is awful. What if the cabinet member is gay? How do we proceed then? Is there a rating scale? If someone wants to protest Sanders Huckabee, feel free, but a restaurant not serving her is terrible.
   1618. Greg K Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5698854)
OTOH, I'm quite surprised his coalition won a clear majority in the parliament.

Yeah, everything I had been reading was suggesting there was a chance for parliament to go the other way.

Perhaps now the Western powers will stop their campaign to undermine the lira!
   1619. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5698855)
If someone wants to protest Sanders Huckabee, feel free, but a restaurant not serving her is terrible.

I guess at some point, this country was bound to tell groups of people they're not welcome in stores, restaurants, gas stations. I think I saw a movie like that once.
   1620. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5698856)
I merely go there. For few
   1621. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5698857)
The country won't be free until people ho choose to take a job in the trump administration are recognized as a protected class.

Science has proven it's biological, not a lifestyle choice!
   1622. tshipman Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5698860)
That is awful. What if the cabinet member is gay? How do we proceed then? Is there a rating scale? If someone wants to protest Sanders Huckabee, feel free, but a restaurant not serving her is terrible.


Again, the right has held that people should be allowed to discriminate against gay people.

I disagree with that belief, and with the belief that Republicans should be asked to leave restaurants, but if you think property owners' rights are paramount, then boo-hoo to the snowflakes who want to discriminate, but not be discriminated against.
   1623. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5698863)
boo-hoo to the snowflakes who want to discriminate, but not be discriminated against.

exactly
   1624. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5698864)
Only the first one -- voting for Hillary -- was a true NeverTrump position.
False. You can say it one time, five times, ten times, or FLTB-learning-a-new-troll-word times; it'll still be false.
And actually I can't think of a single NeverTrumper who actually voted for Hillary. (Can you?) But maybe there were a handful.
How would any of us know? Ballots are secret. There were certainly numerous ones who endorsed Hillary, of course.
Obviously supporting Johnson or McMullin is not a NeverTrump position. The notion is preposterous. Neither of them had a snowball's chance in the opposite of heaven to win, so a vote for either of them could do nothing to stop Trump from winning.
Your argument is wrong, and is also based on flawed logic. Even if it's true that they couldn't win, of course voting for someone other than Trump does something to stop Trump from winning. Voting for Hillary instead of Trump is a two-vote swing against Trump; voting for Johnson instead of Trump is a one-vote swing against Trump. So your underlying premise is flat out wrong.

More importantly, as has been explained to you dozens of times, NeverTrump was simply not a commitment to "stop Trump from winning." It was a commitment to never support Trump. (It's right there in the name.)
The only faithful NeverTrump position was to say "I disagree with Hillary's policies but I am going to support her and vote for her because Trumpism is not merely worse -- it's not even on the scale." To do anything else was a complete cop out and showed an utter lack of conviction and seriousness.
I'm pretty sure I'm not going to take lessons in conviction from a self-described libertarian who supports Trump.
Voting for Johnson or McMullin or staying home is no different from what I did.
No, I think that voting for Johnson or McMullin is very different than loudly supporting Trump.
As to (a), that's why a necessary component was *supporting* Hillary once Trump won the nomination. It was for people in Bill Kristol's position who had the ear of a certain segment of Republicans/conservatives and thus who could potentially sway a few votes no matter the state to advocate for Hillary. That does not rely on any blue state / red state component.
Still incredibly stupid, since the vast majority of people have no ability to sway votes. Moreover, giving people who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary an alternative to voting for Trump, as Kristol did, would likely sway more votes away from Trump than simply advocating for Hillary.

NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period.

I see nothing about Never Voting For Trump in there. I see Never Trump.
Ooh! You got me! Wow! What a zinger!
   1625. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5698869)
Should this dude be removed from the country? If not, why?


No. Why?

He is married to Chica, a United States citizen, and they have two young daughters who were born in the United States.


The man is working, supporting a family of 3 US citizens, and as far as we know, unless you left it out, hasn't committed a crime. What possible good does it do to deport him? Do YOU want to put his wife and children on welfare?
   1626. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:55 PM (#5698870)
You've yet to provide any substantiation that this applies to those with a high flight risk. Illegal border crossers can just cut off their ankle bracelet and be in the same position they were before they were apprehended. Why would they not?

Take it up with former ICE director John Sandweg who claims otherwise. I cannot, nor do I desire to disprove your wild assertions.

Yet again, Misirlou posts nonsense, gets called on it, and then gets huffy. When he first posted this claim, he had no idea who he heard, or what sub-group of illegal immigrants was being discussed, yet now he insists the claim includes illegal border crossers, without providing any cite. I'll certainly listen to any explanation as to why an ankle bracelet would be effective with illegal border crossers, but common sense suggests it wouldn't be. The illegal border crossers can cut off the ankle bracelet and be in the same position they were before they were nabbed, without facing any additional penalty - they'd just be deported if ever caught.
   1627. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5698872)
Perhaps now the Western powers will stop their campaign to undermine the lira!
I'm all for undermining the lira -- on the mornings I pay my hotel bill.
   1628. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5698873)
The man is working, supporting a family of 3 US citizens, and as far as we know, unless you left it out, hasn't committed a crime. What possible good does it do to deport him? Do YOU want to put his wife and children on welfare?
Thanks for taking the time to respond, open borders advocate.
   1629. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5698874)
I disagree with that belief, and with the belief that Republicans should be asked to leave restaurants, but if you think property owners' rights are paramount, then boo-hoo to the snowflakes who want to discriminate, but not be discriminated against.
Similarly, wake us when the state moves to shut down this woman's restaurant.
   1630. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5698875)
Thanks for taking the time to respond, open borders advocate.


Good to know you want to crash the US economy. Why do you hate America?
   1631. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5698876)
NeverTrump was exactly what it says: a statement that one would never vote for Trump. Period.

Which may be how some "NeverTrumps" define the term, but if that's the case then "NeverTrump" has no effective meaning beyond the mildest form of virtue signaling. They might as well say that they're "NeverClinton" or "NeverHitler" for all the good they did in stopping Trump from becoming president, or from stopping Trump from doing what he's doing now.
I mean, there's no disputing that they did not stop Trump from becoming president. Then again, there's also no dispute that Hillary supporters did not stop Trump from becoming president, either. So, um, what's your point?

(Maybe you and yours should've listened when people told you how terrible she was, how flawed, how unlikeable, how unpopular.)





EDIT: Moreover, like Ray you miss the point, because you ignore when the movement began: before the convention. I'll repeat what I said, after the sentence where you cut off (with one little bit of editorializing):

"In the typical election, there may be some bitter fighting during primaries, but [something Andy doesn't ever seem to understand] after the primary everyone hugs and makes up and agrees to support the nominee. NeverTrump was the position that one was not going to take this typical path; if Trump won the nomination NeverTrumpers would refuse to fall in the proverbial line and support him. That's it. End of story."

That was not mere virtue signaling; it was an attempt to sway Trump supporters before he secured the nomination. It was saying, "If you're supporting him because you think he can win, don't assume that you'll have our votes if he gets the nomination. You won't. So you should pick someone else if you want to win." And, trust me, right up until the evening of November 8, Trump supporters were quite bitter about that, blaming NeverTrumpers refusal to support Trump as the reason for his expected defeat.
   1632. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5698877)
Jason, if you think this guy should be deported, then you should logically think every illegal should be deported. And what would happen to the economy of the US, especially, red agricultural states, if that happened? You want to virtue signal that every illegal should be deported, to score political points, but you would never want it to happen.
   1633. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5698878)
And, trust me, right up until the evening of November 8, Trump supporters were quite bitter about that, blaming NeverTrumpers refusal to support Trump as the reason for his expected defeat.
Quite a few remain vocally embittered, even attacking those of us who now applaud Trump when he pursues policies we have long supported.
   1634. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5698879)
Jason, if you think this guy should be deported, then you should logically think every illegal should be deported. And what would happen to the economy of the US, especially, red agricultural states, if that happened? You want to virtue signal that every illegal should be deported, to score political points, but you would never want it to happen.
Every illegal should be removed, absent comprehensive immigration legislation getting enacted into law.

How is this position even remotely scandalous?

Meanwhile, you want to see this dude remain here, never mind that he has now cheated the system multiple times. You're effectively pro-open borders.

But like I said earlier, thank you for answering. Let's see if Andy and count eventually muster up the strength to do the same.
   1635. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5698883)
That New Yorker writer whose tweet implied that a disabled veteran working for ICE was sporting a Nazi tattoo, has now resigned, but not before whining about being called on her smear:
"This has been a wild and difficult week," Lavin said in the tweet. "I owe ICE agent Justin Gaertner a sincere apology for spreading an rumor about his tattoo. However, I do not think it is acceptable for a federal agency to target a private citizen for a good faith, hastily rectified error."

Imagine, a government agency having the nerve to correct a media member spreading falsehoods about one of its employees.
   1636. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5698884)
Every illegal should be removed, absent comprehensive immigration legislation getting enacted into law.

How is this position even remotely scandalous?


It's not scandalous. It's just incredibly harmful, and would never, ever get any support from any but a tiny minority of legislators, because it would crash their constituent's economies.

I appreciate your honesty that you would want to crash your party's base's economies, but few would support you in this. Thus, supporting the deportation of this guy is little short of virtue signaling. even though it would garner huge support among your base, that's only because they haven't thought the process through and where the logical end is, or they are hypocrites.
   1637. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:30 PM (#5698885)
Meanwhile, you want to see this dude remain here, never mind that he has now cheated the system multiple times.


Remember too big to fail? this guy, and probably millions like him, are supporting families or legal residents or US citizens. In addition to throwing the economy into chaos, you would be putting millions onto the welfare rolls. Do you support that as well?
   1638. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5698886)
But like I said earlier, thank you for answering. Let's see if Andy and count eventually muster up the strength to do the same.


Despite what you think, I'm not an open borders guy. I think we should have more legal immigration, and a far more liberal asylum policy, especially from countries where we are primarily responsible for their need to flee. And once we have that, we should have as impermeable border as possible. Call it the Ray position.

As for those already here, those that are law abiding and integrated into the economy, I'm a pragmatist. Throwing them out would put the economy into chaos and put millions needlessly onto welfare. why would anyone, other than a virtue signaler want to do that?
   1639. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5698887)
Virtue Signaling Elitists, the New York Times wants to sell you a $300 t-shirt. They must think you are dumber than I do.
   1640. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5698889)
That New Yorker writer whose tweet implied that a disabled veteran working for ICE was sporting a Nazi tattoo, has now resigned

another (I suspect younger) writer who doesn't realize that Twitter requires the same level of journalistic integrity as an article that takes 6 months to write. you can be a little playful or sardonic - but a federal employee and a supposed Nazi tattoo are not in that zip code.
   1641. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5698890)
The principle: The congressional Republican caucuses must be substantially reduced. So substantially that their remnants, reduced to minorities, will be stripped of the Constitution’s Article I powers that they have been too invertebrate to use against the current wielder of Article II powers. They will then have leisure time to wonder why they worked so hard to achieve membership in a legislature whose unexercised muscles have atrophied because of people like them.
I like George Will a lot, and there's a lot to agree with in what he wrote, but there's a problem: Democrats are insane nowadays. In a normal political environment in the two-party U.S., what would be happening now is that Democrats would be saying, "Hey, all you disaffected non-MAGA Republicans, you should consider us. The GOP is run by crazy extremists that don't support your values anymore, and we're the sane, competent centrists." But, instead, this year the Democrats are moving far left at warp speed, and saying, \"#### you" to the people they should be¹ courting. They're gambling that extreme Trumpism will be more of a turnoff to voters than extreme leftism, and that they therefore they don't need to make an effort to get those votes.




¹I use that term advisedly, because I can predict that the reaction to my saying that is going to be a further round of disdain: \"#### that. Why should we do anything? We don't need them and don't want them unless they come crawling to us."
   1642. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5698893)
Remember too big to fail? this guy, and probably millions like him, are supporting families or legal residents or US citizens. In addition to throwing the economy into chaos, you would be putting millions onto the welfare rolls. Do you support that as well?
It appears you didn't read the entire first sentence in #1634.
   1643. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:07 PM (#5698895)
From the CBS News 2018 Battleground Tracker:
Which of these do you think should be done with families trying to enter the U.S. illegally?

Release the entire family back to their home country together: 48%
Arrest the parents and keep the children in a separate detention facility: 4%
Arrest the parents but keep the children with them in the same detention facility: 11%
Release the entire family in the U.S. temporarily and require that they report back for a hearing later: 21%
Not sure: 16%

That's a June 21-22 poll, at the height of the media frenzy about those caught illegally crossing the border. I doubt that a stance only 21% support will provide much electoral help for the Dems.
   1644. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5698896)
As for those already here, those that are law abiding and integrated into the economy, I'm a pragmatist. Throwing them out would put the economy into chaos and put millions needlessly onto welfare. why would anyone, other than a virtue signaler want to do that?
And as for those who arrive tomorrow, you'll say the same damn thing.

You support open borders.
   1645. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5698901)
The Second Amendment. How does it work?

It's not absolute, and I know that because I cannot buy a machine gun.
Actually, you can. They're expensive to obtain because of the heavy regulation, but they're legal.
   1646. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5698902)
Another surprising finding from that CBS News Battleground Tracker, linked in #1643:
What is your gender?
Male ...................................................................48%
Female ...............................................................52%

Heh.
   1647. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5698903)
Yes I have and you are misrepresenting their opinions. This surprises no one. As I have said before, and you ignored before, so kudos for consistency, the open borders crowd is a tiny segment largely unrepresented in mainstream politics (including the Democratic Party).
Repeating it doesn't make it so. As Ross Douthat put it, "Liberalism's current relationship to open borders is asymptotic: Not for it, but for every step toward it." (Indeed, perhaps you've missed the new "Abolish ICE" movement, which is pretty much the final step.) If one's position is -- like Andy's -- that everyone who sneaks across the border ought to be presumptively allowed to stay here permanently and even move towards citizenship, there's really not much left of a border.

EDIT: If one's position that even people caught at the border ought to be immediately released into the U.S. if they simply assert a claim for asylum -- and if asylum ought to be available for any bad conditions in one's home country, regardless of whether political persecution is involved -- then there's even less of a border left.

You're pretty much left with, "Actual terrorists ought to be deported," which one can technically describe as not-open-borders, I guess, but it's a pretty trivial distinction.
   1648. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5698904)
Should this dude be removed from the country? If not, why?


No, of course he should not be. Come on.

And the reason is, because he didn't commit a crime; he merely overstayed his visa. (According to what you wrote. If there's something that was left out please bring it forth.)
   1649. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5698905)
The man is working, supporting a family of 3 US citizens, and as far as we know, unless you left it out, hasn't committed a crime. What possible good does it do to deport him? Do YOU want to put his wife and children on welfare?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, open borders advocate.


I'll fast become one if that's what it takes to protect people like Pablo Villavicencio from being deported.
   1650. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5698906)
No, of course he should not be. Come on.

And the reason is, because he didn't commit a crime; he merely overstayed his visa. (According to what you wrote. If there's something that was left out please bring it forth.)
Shorter Ray: DUDE, WHERE'S MY PIZZA?
   1651. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5698908)
Jason, if you think this guy should be deported, then you should logically think every illegal should be deported. And what would happen to the economy of the US, especially, red agricultural states, if that happened? You want to virtue signal that every illegal should be deported, to score political points, but you would never want it to happen.


I doubt anything would happen to the economy; I think the stronger argument is the inhumanity or at least incompassionate aspect of deporting people who haven't committed crimes.

I'm fine with turning people back at the border if they don't have a grantable asylum claim but once they're in I don't want to bother them without having cause beyond the mere fact that they're illegal.
   1652. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5698910)

I was perfectly fine with supporting the Gang of 8's bill that passed the Senate with a bipartisan majority of 68 to 32
Once more: you may have been fine with supporting that bill, but it isn't your actual position. It's just a compromise you claim you would've accepted. Your actual position is far far left of that. That bill made lots of people ineligible that you don't think should be deported. You've opposed the deportation of people convicted of DUI and of multimillion dollar mortgage fraud. Whereas the Gang of 8 bill made anyone convicted of a felony or three misdemeanors deportable.

And if there was a news story, as there inevitably would be, about some poor illegal alien facing deportation because he didn't timely fill out his amnesty application or couldn't afford the fee for his amnesty application or because he flunked the continuous residency test, all of which were in the Gang of 8 bill, I am 150% certain that you'd be decrying his deportation, too.
   1653. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5698912)
Every illegal should be removed, absent comprehensive immigration legislation getting enacted into law.


Lol. Leave people alone, Jason. Find some other way to score political points.

But at least you're succeeding in making me rethink my position against amnesty.
   1654. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5698913)

Take it up with former ICE director John Sandweg who claims otherwise. I cannot, nor do I desire to disprove your wild assertions.
He did not claim otherwise.
   1655. zenbitz Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5698914)
Do you believe that all illegal immigrants who apply for asylum should be allowed into the country without any encumbrances while their case is pending?


Let me rephrase this, in the Talmudic sense; Why not?
   1656. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5698917)
But at least you're succeeding in making me rethink my position against amnesty.
Because those pizzas aren't gonna deliver themselves?

EDIT: The funny thing is I've long been open to a pathway to legalization for illegals currently here (within the confines of a larger immigration deal) whereas what you've endorsed up until now is keeping these folks in the shadows.
   1657. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5698918)

Let me rephrase this, in the Talmudic sense; Why not?
The answer depends on whether you're for open borders or not. If you are, then sure, why not? If you're not, then that's why not.
   1658. zenbitz Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5698919)
But, instead, this year the Democrats are moving far left at warp speed, and saying, \"#### you" to the people they should be¹ courting.


David, what are you referring to, specifically. From out here in the People's Republic of California (which ironically has one of the healthiest Capitalists economies this side of Ireland), I don't see a big left ward lurch from HRC or Obama.
   1659. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5698921)
I doubt anything would happen to the economy;


What would removing millions of workers do to an economy at 3.9% unemployment?

In any event , I agree with your point. It is inhumane, but experience has shown me that such arguments fall on deaf ears with the likes of Jason and Clapper. Maybe you will have more success.
   1660. zenbitz Posted: June 24, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5698922)
The answer depends on whether you're for open borders or not. If you are, then sure, why not? If you're not, then that's why not.


Yes, I was asking for the arguments against open borders. But now that I phrase it so, I am clearly wasting my time. I have heard 90% of these arguments and they are bad so what is the likely hood that either'
a) there's some clever argument I missed
b) the close borders ideologue is going to be convinced by self-inflection.

Oh, and uh - to avoid fake gotcha posts - I DO support open borders. I don't think the Democratic party does, but hey, I don't fashion my opinions based on what a political party says. I tend to do it the other way 'round.

   1661. zenbitz Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5698923)
Actual terrorists ought to be deported


Even this is a dumb position. ACTUAL terrorists -- presumably tried and convicted terrorists -- are going to be in jail for so long deportation doesn't really seem relevant
   1662. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5698924)
Actual terrorists ought to be deported


Even this is a dumb position. ACTUAL terrorists -- presumably tried and convicted terrorists -- are going to be in jail for so long deportation doesn't really seem like a big deal.


Yeah. I missed this, but whoever said this is an idiot. Why would you want to release terrorists to terrorize again? Lock them up, as they say in the popular vernacular.
   1663. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5698925)
What would removing millions of workers do to an economy at 3.9% unemployment?
FFS, no one's "removing millions of workers," not even over the span of a dozen years. My question to you was whether you thought this particular illegal immigrant should be removed and you said no, thereby revealing yourself to be an open borders kind of guy.
   1664. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:08 PM (#5698926)
My question to you was whether you thought this particular illegal immigrant should be removed and you said no, thereby revealing yourself to be an open borders kind of guy.


Thanks for being honest that you have no principles. You are in favor of deporting individual law abiding illegals, but not all of them because it would hurt the economy. What is the number of law abiding illegals you want to deport immediately? Give us a number.

Virtue signaller.
   1665. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5698927)
Repeating it doesn't make it so. As Ross Douthat put it, "Liberalism's current relationship to open borders is asymptotic: Not for it, but for every step toward it." (Indeed, perhaps you've missed the new "Abolish ICE" movement, which is pretty much the final step.)

The parenthetical here is false. ICE is NOT the agency sitting on the border, as that would be CBP. ICE is pretty much the JV to the FBI, focusing on one kind of crime. As a libertarian lawyer, you're almost certainly aware of what that means for the incentives of that agency's employees.
   1666. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:12 PM (#5698928)
Thanks for being honest that you have no principles. You are in favor of deporting individual law abiding illegals, but not all of them because it would hurt the economy.

Virtue signaller.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I said no such thing. Mass removals on such a scale won't happen because it's logistically impossible.
   1667. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5698929)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I said no such thing. Mass removals won't happen because it's logistically impossible.


As I said, you have demonstrated you have no principles. What is your principle that this individual needs to be deported but millions like him do not? Either they all do, or none do. I do not see a middle ground.
   1668. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5698931)
David, what are you referring to, specifically. From out here in the People's Republic of California (which ironically has one of the healthiest Capitalists economies this side of Ireland), I don't see a big left ward lurch from HRC or Obama.
Perhaps not, but HRC and Obama are not running for office in 2018. They're not running the party in 2018.

There's not an issue I can think of for which the Democratic Party hasn't lurched far to the left. Immigration is most prominent at this moment in time of course. But you find a so-called social justice issue, and the left wing of the party is ascendant on that issue. (Except, ironically, on Russia, thanks to Trump.)


EDIT: Er, not that Russia is a social justice issue; I'm just saying that Russia is one of the few issues on which the left's position is firmly rejected by the Democratic establishment.
   1669. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5698932)
What is your principle that this individual needs to be deported but millions like him do not?
He's already in custody. And while ICE should prioritize those illegals who have committed crimes once here, that doesn't mean other illegals should be immune from removal.
   1670. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5698935)
He's already in custody.


That's not a principle. That's whim. "We got him, send him away. If we get others accidentally, send them away too." But let's not upset the economy by getting rid of everyone like him, or even looking for them. Let's only get people that'll into our lap.

You're for open borders as well.
   1671. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5698936)

The parenthetical here is false. ICE is NOT the agency sitting on the border, as that would be CBP.
I didn't at all say that ICE was on the border, so my parenthetical is not false. ICE is the agency that deports people who make it across the border. Which is a key part of immigration enforcement. Given the porousness of our border, if one's position is that everyone who gets across the border can stay, that is a de facto open border policy. And of course it's not as if people who want to abolish ICE are calling for extra border security -- quite the opposite. (That's the whole point of this asylum discussion; if one's position is that all a person has to do is make a claim for asylum and they get admitted to the country, then one is eliminating even the pretense that one cares about border security.)
   1672. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5698938)
Look,if your position is "I don't want to look for law abiding illegals, but if they happen to come to the attention of ICE in the course of their legal activities, then #### 'em, ship them out", well then, your position is capricious and arbitrary, and might I say, evil. Not to mention harmful*. As I said earlier, this guy has a US citizen wife, and 2 US citizen children, who may well now have to go on welfare. Well done!

*the fear of such is why cities are having a hell of a time with general law enforcement. Immigrant communities are afraid to report crimes, or give witness testimony, for fear of running afoul of ICE. So again, well, done!. You made policing harder in cities.
   1673. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5698939)
Look,if your position is "I don't want to look for law abiding illegals, but if they happen to come to the attention of ICE in the course of their legal activities, then #### 'em, ship them out", well then, your position is capricious and arbitrary, and might I say, evil. Not to mention harmful*. As I said earlier, this guy has a US citizen wife, and 2 US citizen children, who may well now have to go on welfare. Well done!
It isn't the least bit capricious. The government seeks to deter other wannabe illegal immigrants -- those who may have been advised that everything will be fine provided they don't commit a felony on US soil -- from trying to get here.
   1674. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:50 PM (#5698940)
I was perfectly fine with supporting the Gang of 8's bill that passed the Senate with a bipartisan majority of 68 to 32, as was your former preferred candidate, Marco Rubio. You should really apply for the forthcoming job of Donald Trump's Official Historian, because at your rate of lying it's a job you'll be perfectly suited for.

Way to duck, Andy. You might have backed the Gang of 8 bill as an interim measure but what's your overall view of illegal immigration?


My overall view was quite well expressed in that Gang of 8 bill, which allowed for a path to legalization and eventual citizenship for those who'd been in the country since the end of 2011, subject to the conditions spelled out in that bill, conditions which were also in Obama's subsequent Executive Order. You can disagree with that E.O. on Constitutional grounds, but on substance its provisions command majority support to this day.

The alternative to that is what we have now: Millions of nonviolent illegal immigrants not knowing from one day to the next whether some ICE raid will target them. I'm perfectly fine with deporting those illegal immigrants who've been convicted of felonies or violent crimes, and that's where deportations should be focused.

If you disagree with that sort of prioritizing, just say so. Just say that someone who came here 10 years ago and has been living here since then without otherwise running afoul of the law should be treated the same way as a drug runner or a murderer or a wife beater. Because that's what your president has given us, may he rot in Hell.

For example: If cost weren't an issue, would you still be strongly opposed to a border fence designed to prevent the thousands of foreigners who enter the country illegally each year? If so, why?

I'm against any border fence/wall that goes beyond our current one, because it's nothing more than a political gimmick that has nothing to do with real border security. Nobody wants the damn thing except for the worst part of Trump's base and the contractors who know a honey pot when they see it. Not to mention the symbolism of it is about as horrific as anyone can imagine.

Statue of Liberty: That was then. Steel and Concrete Wall of Old White Folks Paranoia: This is now.

And I'll ask you the same question I posed to count: Do you believe that all illegal immigrants who apply for asylum should be allowed into the country without any encumbrances while their case is pending?

Just what sort of encumbrances do you have in mind? But more to the point, do you even think that fleeing gang warfare should be a legitimate reason for granting asylum? If not, then we'll just be talking past each other forever and ever, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.

I'll take Emma Lazurus. You can have your Stephen Miller.
   1675. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5698941)
I didn't at all say that ICE was on the border, so my parenthetical is not false. ICE is the agency that deports people who make it across the border. Which is a key part of immigration enforcement. Given the porousness of our border, if one's position is that everyone who gets across the border can stay, that is a de facto open border policy.

Not responsive. There's nothing preventing the FBI from fulfilling a similar function. Of course, this puts prioritization of immigration-related offenses directly against, say, radical Islam, espionage, and the mafia. Any morally decent libertarian wants that to happen, as that will put an end to pizza delivery guy stories.
   1676. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5698942)
It isn't the least bit capricious. The government seeks to deter other wannabe illegal immigrants -- those who may have up until now been told that everything will be fine provided they don't commit a felony on US soil -- from coming here.


Oh please. That is supposed to deter people from fleeing narco terrorist violence?
   1677. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5698943)
Kamala Harris Says Congress Needs To Change ICE, Perhaps ‘Start From Scratch’;
Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.) said Congress should reconsider the nation’s immigration enforcement system and possibly “start from scratch” by eliminating the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency.

“There’s no question that we’ve got to critically reexamine ICE and its role, and the way that it is being administered, and the work it is doing,” Harris said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday. “And we need to probably think about starting from scratch.”

Harris’ remarks came in response to a question from host Kasie Hunt about whether she supports abolishing ICE.
Again, you folks have been warned. Someone wake up Mouse and inform him that the open borders activists include one of the favorites for the DNC nomination.
   1678. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5698944)
Again, you folks have been warned. Someone wake up Mouse and inform him that the open borders activists include one of the favorites for the DNC nomination.


I"m with her", given the way you define open borders.
   1679. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5698945)
Oh please. That is supposed to deter people from fleeing narco terrorist violence?
LMAO. Before all/most of these folks were looking for work. Now they're fleeing narco-terrorist violence? Your argument is coming completely undone.
   1680. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5698946)
Every illegal should be removed, absent comprehensive immigration legislation getting enacted into law.

Okay, I just saw this. And from this point just forget about any further dialogue, unless your idea of "comprehensive immigration legislation" corresponds to Marco Rubio's position before the Tea Party mau-maued him. Otherwise your position is indistinguishable from Trump's on his worst day.

FFS, no one's "removing millions of workers," not even over the span of a dozen years.

The only logical way to reconcile that statement with what you wrote in #1634 is that you wish that Trump would be even more draconian in his deportations than he is already. You've come a long way, baby.
   1681. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5698947)
LMAO. Before all/most of these folks were looking for work. Now they're fleeing narco-terrorist violence? Your argument is coming completely undone.


You are incoherant, and talking to you is a waste of time.
   1682. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:05 PM (#5698951)
Kamala Harris Says Congress Needs To Change ICE, Perhaps ‘Start From Scratch’;
Sen. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.) said Congress should reconsider the nation’s immigration enforcement system and possibly “start from scratch” by eliminating the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency.

“There’s no question that we’ve got to critically reexamine ICE and its role, and the way that it is being administered, and the work it is doing,” Harris said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday. “And we need to probably think about starting from scratch.”

Harris’ remarks came in response to a question from host Kasie Hunt about whether she supports abolishing ICE.

Again, you folks have been warned. Someone wake up Mouse and inform him that the open borders activists include one of the favorites for the DNC nomination.

ICE is all of 16 years old,** and under its current direction it's little more than an agency of Trump's paranoid vision about alien invaders. I'm glad that Harris has the guts to question its current viability.

** Did we have open borders before 2002?
   1683. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:07 PM (#5698953)
Not responsive. There's nothing preventing the FBI from fulfilling a similar function.
Right. Nothing...
Of course, this puts prioritization of immigration-related offenses directly against, say, radical Islam, espionage, and the mafia.
...except that.

You can’t say, "I support this change, even though it will do nothing." The whole point of the proposal is to make it essentially impossible to deport people. Which is what I said from the beginning.
   1684. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:08 PM (#5698955)
You are incoherant, and talking to you is a waste of time.

JE started out as a "#NeverTrump", and now on immigration he's more Trumpish than Trump himself. He's a perfect symbol of what George Will was talking about.
   1685. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5698956)
You are incoherant, and talking to you is a waste of time.
Incoherent.
   1686. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5698957)
Okay, I just saw this.
Apparently, you still haven't seen #1611-12. Answer anytime.
   1687. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5698958)
Incoherent.


Sick burn.
   1688. Stormy JE Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5698959)
JE started out as a "#NeverTrump", and now on immigration he's more Trumpish than Trump himself. He's a perfect symbol of what George Will was talking about.
Oh? And is David Jeff Sessions' long lost twin?
   1689. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:20 PM (#5698961)
another (I suspect younger) writer who doesn't realize that Twitter requires the same level of journalistic integrity as an article that takes 6 months to write. you can be a little playful or sardonic - but a federal employee and a supposed Nazi tattoo are not in that zip code.

Speaking of young reporters who step in it rather badly, the New York Times has quite an article on its own reporter who was involved with that recently indicted Senate Intelligence Committee aide - How An Affair Between A Reporter And A Security Aide Rattled Washington Media. The reporter covered the Senate Intelligence Committee, moving from McClatchy Newspapers, to the Huffington Post, then BuzzFeed News, followed by Politico, before starting at the NYT in December 2017, while carrying on a 3-year affair with the now indicted aide, and later dating another Senate Intelligence Committee staffer. Doesn't seem like she was truthful with her editors about her relationship and sources at several stops, and she didn't tell the Times for months that the Justice Department had seized the records of her communications. Might be a resignation coming, since it looks like she has been thrown under the bus. Perhaps she can get one of those nifty t-shirts mentioned in #1639 on the way out.
   1690. Jay Z Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5698962)
Perhaps not, but HRC and Obama are not running for office in 2018. They're not running the party in 2018.

There's not an issue I can think of for which the Democratic Party hasn't lurched far to the left. Immigration is most prominent at this moment in time of course. But you find a so-called social justice issue, and the left wing of the party is ascendant on that issue. (Except, ironically, on Russia, thanks to Trump.)


EDIT: Er, not that Russia is a social justice issue; I'm just saying that Russia is one of the few issues on which the left's position is firmly rejected by the Democratic establishment.


There is no establishment. Team R holds all of the branches, remember?

Who are the Team D standard bearers who are "running in 2018?" Pelosi? Who else?

All you have here is conjecture. Back it up.
   1691. Howie Menckel Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5698967)
the New York Times has quite an article on its own reporter who was involved with that recently indicted Senate Intelligence Committee aide - How An Affair Between A Reporter And A Security Aide Rattled Washington Media. The reporter covered the Senate Intelligence Committee, moving from McClatchy Newspapers, to the Huffington Post, then BuzzFeed News, followed by Politico, before starting at the NYT in December 2017, while carrying on a 3-year affair with the now indicted aide, and later dating another Senate Intelligence Committee staffer.

this, too, has been badly underreported.

as little as 10 years ago, this would have been a massive scandal. the college kid working at a weekly newspaper who does this is a disgrace. this one should get widespread media condemnation. talk about an ethical cesspool that has no ideology - here it is. to have been a conduit to widely-disseminated stories across the internet while boning these staffers is disgusting.

I hope - assuming there isn't some stunning claim and vindication for the writer who it turns out never slept with either - that very high-level journalists call this out. this is the kind of thing that radicals on both sides believe actually happens. I believe it remains rare - but downplaying it is not a good look.
   1692. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: June 24, 2018 at 11:59 PM (#5698970)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I said no such thing. Mass removals on such a scale won't happen because it's logistically impossible.

Does this thought not work similarly against the idea that liberals want to take everyone’s guns? How would that work exactly.

Banging on one’s keyboard, maniacally fake laughing. Most def the sign of being one of the sane ones.
   1693. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5698971)
this, too, has been badly underreported.

No, it hasn’t.
as little as 10 years ago, this would have been a massive scandal.

Why don’t you both-sides this bit and think through what other scandals in the last three hours would have been campaign or administration killers. As some are fond of saying, I’ll hang up and listen.
   1694. Chicago Joe Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:09 AM (#5698972)
Re: scandal. I’m reminded of Andrea Mitchell.
   1695. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5698973)
Joe Manchin broke Claire McCaskil's rib. Initial reports suggest he was justified.
   1696. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:45 AM (#5698975)
But there's always hope that not all Republicans are as spineless as JE or Clapper. I'll let George Will describe how a more relevant NeverTrump philosophy might apply to this November's elections:

So basically Will's view is the best way to defeat Trump is to vote out Republicans not named Trump? So let's make the Cernoviches and Huckabees within the GOP even more powerful?
Look, nobody knows what the right strategy here is. There are tradeoffs and drawbacks to any approach. Will's argument is that Trump currently runs the GOP. The establishment has already shown that it will at the least enable, if not actively support, Trump. Therefore, keeping them in power will not serve as any sort of check on Trump. Instead, the only way to check Trump is to reduce the power of the GOP. Yes, Will's approach will make Trump more powerful within the GOP, but Trump dominating a rump GOP with little clout is less of a problem than Trump running a GOP that controls so many levers of power. Moreover, by voting out the Vichy Republicans, it gives non-Trump Republicans a chance to clean house and start over with Republicans with a spine.

Yes, this plan may backfire. But continuing what anti- (or at least non-) Trump Republicans have been doing isn't working.
   1697. zenbitz Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:45 AM (#5698976)
The government seeks to deter other wannabe illegal immigrants


Just spit ballin' here... but --- hear me out -- what if they crashed the US economy! That would deter immigration!
   1698. manchestermets Posted: June 25, 2018 at 06:27 AM (#5698982)
I'm taking my daughter to Las Vegas next week, we've been practicing counting cards in case nobody will notice a 9 year-old at the table.


Is card counting still possible in Las Vegas? In every European casino I've been in in the last few years, the cards are fed back into an automatic shuffling machine after every hand, so no card is out of play at any point.
   1699. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 06:44 AM (#5698983)
JE started out as a "#NeverTrump", and now on immigration he's more Trumpish than Trump himself


Get real, if he were that Trumpy he’d have deported himself. Obviously we have enough Jews and Puerto Ricans already.
   1700. Stormy JE Posted: June 25, 2018 at 07:41 AM (#5698988)
.pilF
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