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Monday, June 18, 2018

OTP 2018 June 18: How Life Imitates the Congressional Baseball Game

“This game is a situation of which, you’re a product of your political success, so if you have a good political year, you have a good recruiting year for this game.” So said former Rep. David Bonior, D-Mich., many years ago about the Congressional Baseball Game and the teams each party gets to field.

Washington is host to the 2018 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, known among fans as the midsummer classic. But Capitol Hill has staged its own midsummer classic every year for more than five decades, the Congressional Baseball Game.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 18, 2018 at 08:15 AM | 1775 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   801. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5696327)
Oh, it doesn't even take 30 seconds for you to self-destruct.


Concession accepted.
   802. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5696330)
EDIT: Only a moron would think I was linking to the report, BTW. "The 500 page report in 900 words" RIGHT THERE IN THE TITLE. And of course all the text talks about the report clearly as something being summarized. No one could be so dumb as to think I was linking to the report directly, right? Right!?! I would hope everyone would realize they can Google the actual report themselves if they want to read 500 pages.


Bitter Mouse obviously wrote this after I wrote my later post, and Bitter Mouse apparently continues to be blissfully unaware that people who are able to read reports for themselves have no need for links to the interpretations of others about such reports. The reason he does this is crystal clear -- he is unable to read the reports himself in any serious way and needs the help of others to do so.
   803. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5696331)
. . . as if Strzok-Page's contempt for Trump actually influenced their work
Strzok & Page repeatedly declared their support for Hillary, the importance of her election, and their fervent opposition to Trump, well before the Clinton e-mail investigation was completed, and you want to contend their bias didn't affect their work? They spoke of using their official positions to prevent Trump's election and of having an insurance policy should he be elected, yet you contend their bias didn't influence their work? Just Andy being Andy, eh?

Shouldn't you be taking that conclusion up with Horowitz?

-----------------------------------------------------

Again more falsehoods.

Strzok co-wrote the Comey letter which was harmful to Clinton. If he wanted to actually harm Trump, there were several obvious things he could have done. Simply leaking the existence of an investigation of his campaign is the most obvious of them.

I don't know why you feel you have to push this bizarre narrative.


Those last two comments were directed at Clapper, but I want to hear Howie's response, given what he wrote in #560. I'm failing to see much difference between his take on Strzok/Page and the take of the most hardcore Republican on this thread.

   804. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5696333)

I'm failing to see much difference between him and the most hardcore Republican on this thread.
Perhaps, but since you also can't see a difference between your "never deport anyone" and the Senate immigration bill you've touted ad nauseam but never read, your lack of perception isn't really very compelling.
   805. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5696335)
Only a buffoon or a hack could conclude that this report concluded that S & P's clear bias had no impact on their actions.


Once more for the truly stupid ... "The official investigation into the matter contended it did not impact the outcome (paraphrasing)."

Where the IG report talked about the OUTCOME of the investigation (you know the one the IG looked into), it determined there was no material impact from political bias.

I have no problem with individuals actions being criticized, hey if they deserve punishment for their actions being improperly motivated by their bias, well that is no good. That is why it is such a relief that in total the outcome was found to be in the clear.
   806. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5696337)
FLTB: "People in Deadwood would have watched the borders closely."
Sane people: "Actually, when they were in Deadwood, people didn't watch the borders closely."
FLTB: "So?"



Your first sentence is a lie and I never said any such thing.


How is it not an accurate paraphrase of your first sentence of post 738?
Actually, in Deadwood they would have applauded the effort to watch the border closely.
   807. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5696339)
Let's check the tape!
738: Actually, in Deadwood they would have applauded the effort to watch the border closely.
790: FLTB: "People in Deadwood would have watched the borders closely."
794: I never said any such thing.
Verdict: Strike One to the Pedant. SBB's use of the Conditional Perfect applied to a hypothetical applauding of a non-existent effort (to a fictionalized history, but never mind that), and was not an assertion that the borders were actually watched. However, "lie" and "never said any such thing" is a bit of an overreaction for an easily misinterpreted grammatical construct.

Point to SBB, however gracelessly acquired.
   808. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5696341)
FLTB: "People in Deadwood would have watched the borders closely."
Sane people: "Actually, when they were in Deadwood, people didn't watch the borders closely."
FLTB: "So?"




Your first sentence is a lie and I never said any such thing.


738. I Am Merely a Fake Lawyer Posted: June 20, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5696187)

In Deadwood they would have shot her ass.



Actually, in Deadwood they would have applauded the effort to watch the border closely.
   809. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5696343)
Meh, cokes as necessary.

Everybody loves the sugar fish in a barrel, so I should have know you have to be quick about it...
   810. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5696344)
finally, your cliched stereotype is, well, tired. and you know zero about my professional career (and in fact, you'd be red-faced if you did), so you've entered the old "The Odd Couple" routine of "when you assume...."

So why don't you tell us a bit about your professional career? I certainly don't mind being red-faced, and don't worry, nobody's going to dox you. But since you seem to be using your real name** I'm not sure what the reason is for your reticence.

** Though a googling of "Howie Menckel" only brings up 5 results, 4 of which are BTF related. Which does seem kind of strange for a professional journalist.
   811. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5696346)
a googling of "Howie Menckel" only brings up 5 results, 4 of which are BTF related. Which does seem kind of strange for a professional journalist.

where do I even begin?

maybe with the fact that I note on occasion that I am 100 percent Irish. what part of The Old Sod are the Menckels from?
   812. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:07 PM (#5696347)
I'm failing to see much difference between him and the most hardcore Republican on this thread.

Perhaps, but since you also can't see a difference between your "never deport anyone" and the Senate immigration bill you've touted ad nauseam but never read, your lack of perception isn't really very compelling.


Citation, please, for that repeatedly false quote you attribute to me. You're such a habitual liar on this issue that I'm not going to respond to it for a 4th time. Either put up or shut up.

And while you're at it, tell us what you think should be done about the millions of illegal immigrants with no other charges against them who've been living here for years. Here's an opportunity for you to distinguish yourself from the president you justly loathe with such lust.
   813. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5696350)
a googling of "Howie Menckel" only brings up 5 results, 4 of which are BTF related. Which does seem kind of strange for a professional journalist.

where do I even begin?


Gee, I don't know, Howie. Maybe by linking to some representative articles you've written. That'd be a start. Hell, I can even do that myself, and I'm certainly no journalist.
   814. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5696355)
YC is wrong or lying again. The government does not have to arrest people for misdemeanor illegal entry to deport them. This was a conscious policy choice. You say the government “isn’t going to just release” people crossing the border as if they must be arrested to be deported or must be detained pending an asylum determination, neither of which is true, which you could probably tell by the fact that it’s a new and deliberate policy. You acknowledge that some asylum claims are meritorious but still support the arrest and separation of families. And for a lawyer to complain that it’s not arrests causing a problem it’s people asserting their rights is also gross.

In short, illegal immigration isn’t a problem; even if it was you can deport people without arresting them, and you can release people pending asylum determinations; even if that wasn’t true, the Trump administration could have tried to find a solution but instead went with separating families because they are cruel and racist.

Count is the one wrong here. His position is that there's no problem if we just ignore all the violations of immigration law. He wants illegal border crossers to be released if accompanied by a minor. That's a policy that has lead to the increase in minors illegally crossing the border, operating as a Get Out Of Jail card for those arrested, who then mostly don't show up for the hearings on their belatedly raised claims for political asylum. Catch & Release was an absurd policy, and there's no reason to continue it. Count also seems to think the government can just deport people without even considering their claims for political asylum. I believe he's wrong on that, although Mexico does appear to do it in a fashion*. I'm all for rapidly dismissing spurious asylum claims, but it's not that easy, and still takes some time.

*if the Central Americans have a legitimate claim for political asylum, Mexico, as the first country of entry is obligated to consider their claims, but reportedly isn't doing so, merely sending them north. That might say something about the legitimacy of such claims.
   815. Count Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5696356)
797- it would seriously prejudice most asylum applicants to force a hearing to take place before 20 days. At the same time, there are massive delays now because there aren’t enough immigration judges and that can and should be solved by hiring more judges.
   816. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5696357)
EDIT: Deleted upon request
   817. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5696359)
At the same time, there are massive delays now because there aren’t enough immigration judges and that can and should be solved by hiring more judges.


The problem is, no one knows where they come from.
   818. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5696362)
#moveonorg
   819. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5696366)

edit: I'm not sure how you can dox someone that has their real name (with a real name twitter to boot) linked in their profile?
   820. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5696371)
#moveonorg
   821. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5696374)
#819 seems like conduct within Furtado's permanent ban edict.
   822. Count Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5696376)
814- no, my position is not that you should ignore violations of immigration law, it’s that you can deport people without arresting and charging them for violating immigration law. As administrations had done previously. The new policy was deliberately cruel and is supposed to be a deterrent, but you don’t defend it based on the actual rationales for imposing it, you pretend as if the government’s hands are tied.

They are released pending hearings and if necessary can be tracked with high touch case management (it's not usually necessary because the worst case scenario is usually that they skip a hearing and live in the country illegallly for a while, which isn’t a problem). I also don’t think you can deport people without considering asylum claims, and I don’t know where you’re getting that. It’s just not necessary to detain people during the process. I wrote about my personal experience working on an asylum case for someone who was paroled and worked during the years it took before his hearing, as is common.
   823. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5696377)
#819 seems like conduct within Furtado's permanent ban edict.


How the #### do you dox someone that has their real name twitter LINKED in their profile? Seriously. You tell me Clapper. You're the one that told me to go look at his profile.

I respected his wishes, but wtf?

art, I'd appreciate it if you would delete your comment. thank you


Let's get this timeline straight for all the readers:

1) Andy asks if you're a real journalist and uses your screen name to search for you, comes up empty
3) Clapper tells everybody to go look at your profile.
4) I do so and bored at work do 60 seconds of googling said twitter account and profile, this info is provided FREELY by Howie
5) Howie asks us to delete the "dox" and Clapper suggest banning me for putting 2+2 together and saving readers clicking through to his profile.

WTF.
   824. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5696381)
look at my profile. it changed. I appreciate your cooperation.

I shouldn't have had that info on the profile (from maybe 10 years ago, and haven't thought of it since), Clapper ideally would not have directed people to it, and then art wall ideally wouldn't have upped the ante.

but I understand why it happened - and I am not complaining, given my contribution to the issue.
   825. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5696382)
@821 - Maybe it is *now*, after 820. I don't normally check the sorts of things you originally referenced in 816 until you brought it to my attention - at which time there *was* RL info available. At the time it was written it was kosher, IMO.
---------
ETA: So he did *exactly* what you did - initially refer to public information, then immediately removed it on request. Seems a bit rich to call so stridently for him to be banned, unless you mean for yourself to be included.
   826. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5696385)
. . . the worst case scenario is usually that they skip a hearing and live in the country illegallly for a while, which isn’t a problem

That's consistent with your "illegal immigration isn't a problem" thesis, but most people disagree with that. That last election probably was decided because people didn't accept that thesis. It's absurd to release people who won't show up for the required proceedings on their case. No court knowingly does that, and it is ridiculous that the Immigration Courts ever did.
   827. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5696387)
So Michael Cohen has resigned from the RNC Finance Committee (What, you say? He was on that? And hadn't resigned already? Yes... Is there anyone left on that committee? Remember his non-Trump/non-Hannity client also used to be on it before resigning).

But... what's most interesting?

Cohen also criticized the administration's policy of separating migrant children from their parents at the southern border, the first time he’s distanced himself from the president.

"As the son of a Polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds of this family separation policy is heart wrenching,” Cohen wrote. “While I strongly support measures that will secure our porous borders, children should never be used as bargaining chips."


Huh... so in his resignation letter to RNC - ostensibly to focus on his legal troubles - he decides to go out of his way to take a swipe at his boss/client/fixee.

Why would he do that?

It's almost as if he made a concerted effort to light some bridges on fire and throw up a flare that he's doing exactly that.

What's the phrase?

Oh yeah.... might be worth watching!
   828. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5696391)
#moveonorg
   829. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5696394)
That's consistent with your "illegal immigration isn't a problem" thesis, but most people disagree with that. That last election probably was decided because people didn't accept that thesis.


62,984,828 - 45.9%
65,853,514 - 48.0%

You have an awfully weird definition of "most". What you call "most" actually isn't even a "plurality".
   830. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5696396)
Done and done Howie. Sorry if I caused you any stress. I assumed since you had the info in your profile you didn't mind. Obviously as the Internet has grown since you made the profile times changed and the stakes are a bit higher.
   831. Howie Menckel Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5696398)
art, I truly appreciate it.
the world is so polarized now that info someone notices becomes a weapon 5 or 10 years later. even seemingly positive credentials get twisted - I've seen it happen.

also, those credentials carry two opposite issues: the "appeal to authority" people who wind up mindlessly accepting everything someone says (which is not good), and the jealous/rebellious/angry types who want to tear you down (also not good).

and with that, we resume our regularly scheduled programming: Trump signs executive order on keeping families together. what say you?
   832. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5696402)
art, I truly appreciate it.


Honestly there's only one guy here that should be worried about a dox given the BS he spews on a daily basis, and he hasn't shown his face today.

and with that, we resume our regularly scheduled programming: Trump signs executive order. what say you?


I'd say it invalidates his "the Democrats caused this and only they can fix it" in a deductive way but that nobody in his base will note the logic or care that he's a lying liar who lies.
   833. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5696403)
Clapper tells everybody to go look at your profile.

More accurately, I poked fun at Andy for thinking that "Howie Menckel" was Howie's real name, apparently missing or forgetting many posts making clear it wasn't. I did mention that Andy must have also never looked at Howie's BBTF profile, but, IMHO, that's not an excuse for the "I got you dox covered" post linking to non-BBTF material connected to the real Howie. In any case, sorry for my contribution here, Howie.
   834. Count Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5696404)
826- in typical fashion you won’t take a position on the merits but note that “most people” believe X. In this case that doesn’t seem to be true. Trump lost the popular vote, and immigration reform has been scuttled by a fraction of the Republican Party, not by most people. In any event there is no crisis and no reason to charge people criminally with illegal entry, and your support of a deliberately cruel policy of family separation continues to be reprehensible.
   835. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5696407)
DHS attacks airlines after they balk at flying separated children

Furor over Trump’s policies scorches tech

Just for Perros - I'll note that the tech article actually isn't solely about immigration, it's also about shareholders and employees balking at companies - from microsoft to google to amazon - sharing advanced technologies from facial recognition to AI with the government.

   836. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5696409)
More accurately, I poked fun at Andy for thinking that "Howie Menckel" was Howie's real name, apparently missing or forgetting many posts making clear it wasn't. I did mention that Andy must have also never looked at Howie's BBTF profile, but, IMHO, that's not an excuse for the "I got you dox covered" post linking to non-BBTF material connected to the real Howie. In any case, sorry for my contribution here, Howie.


I would never had looked at his profile if you didn't very clearly imply his real info was on it, moron. If you wanna talk about causality. Based on his profile it appeared that Howie was ADVERTISING his work elsewhere on the Internet. Given that, my mild dox (didn't even bother to find any family or ####) was completely benign.

Once he asked me to remove it I immediately did, as it was obvious that times had changed since he made the profile.
   837. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5696412)
and with that, we resume our regularly scheduled programming: Trump signs executive order on keeping families together. what say you?


I'm glad he caved.

My opinion of him is the same as it would be for a guy who stops smacking around a kid because I see it and tell him to stop.
   838. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5696414)
Clapper is just concerned someone will find out that he's actually Tiffany Trump.
   839. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5696416)
You have an awfully weird definition of "most". What you call "most" actually isn't even a "plurality".

Who won the election? Are you ever going to accept the result? Or concede that opposition to the "Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" thesis played a significant part? Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it, you know?
   840. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5696417)
Who won the election? Are you ever going to accept the result? Or concede that opposition to the "Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" thesis played a significant part? Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it, you know?


You said "most".

I pointed out you were wrong.

If it bothers you have either your ignorance of very common and well-known words called to the carpet; or, to be called to carpet when you obviously were lying - then I see two avenues for you to avoid this discomfort.

Use words in accordance with their definition or stop lying. Or both.
   841. Lassus Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5696422)
Trump signs executive order on keeping families together. what say you?

Have to find it, but there's been words published out there that even that wasn't actually required.
   842. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5696424)
For all his bragging about his negotiating skills, Trump is a bungling amateur.

Economically, both the United States and China would lose from a trade war. Punitive tariffs would push up import prices, dent exports, cost jobs, and crimp economic growth, so both sides would do best to avoid an outbreak of hostilities. But now that the Trump administration is threatening to impose 25 percent tariffs on $46 billion of U.S. imports from China and China has responded in kind, a trade war looms. Trump has since raised the stakes by threatening tariffs on a further $100 billion of imports (so far unspecified), which Beijing promptly said it would match. Trump’s calculation appears to be that China has more to lose and so will back down. He is wrong.
* * *
The threat isn’t just to American-branded products that American consumers love. A trade war also poses a threat to U.S.-based manufacturers that rely on Chinese parts and components to be globally competitive. Trump’s $46 billion list already targets aircraft propellers, machine tools, and other intermediate goods. Pushing up their costs would threaten manufacturing jobs in America’s heartland. And while those tariffs avoid consumer staples such as clothing and footwear, they will inflate the prices of some consumer goods, such as televisions and dishwashers.

In contrast, China’s potential retaliation is much better targeted. First in line is $16 billion of U.S. civilian aircraft exports. Boeing’s share price slumped when the Chinese move was announced. But Chinese airlines are expanding so fast that Boeing may be willing to slash prices to hang on to sales there, in which case none of the cost of the tariffs would fall on China. And if push comes to shove, the Chinese already have a reliable alternative supplier: Europe’s Airbus.
* * *
China also has much more scope to mitigate any economic damage than the Trump administration does. Unlike the U.S. Federal Reserve, China’s central bank is not independent, so the People’s Bank of China can be ordered to cut interest rates to boost domestic demand if necessary. State-owned banks can likewise be told to extend more credit. And while China has allowed its currency to appreciate against the dollar considerably since Trump took office, it could nudge the renminbi down instead, making Chinese exports more competitive.

The Chinese government also has a much healthier fiscal position and is free to compensate any industries harmed by a trade war. By contrast, the U.S. government is facing a large budget deficit of some 4 percent of GDP that is set to rise in the next few years. Any further spending would require congressional approval, which may not be forthcoming.
* * *
On top of all that, Trump doesn’t seem to have a strategy. An international alliance would be more effective in pressuring China to open its markets and respect foreign intellectual property rights than going it alone. Last year, the United States, the European Union, and Japan agreed to make common cause on this. But Trump has now alienated those allies by slapping tariffs on Japan’s steel and aluminum exports on bogus national security grounds and threatening to do the same to EU allies. Since his threatened tariffs against China would also hit its foreign suppliers, notably in Asia, that further undermines any potential for a united front.

Trump has made matters worse by acting unilaterally against China in a way that would appear to breach World Trade Organization rules. Indeed, potential allies find Trump’s America First rhetoric repulsive. All this has given China the political high ground — “China doesn’t want a trade war, but we’re not afraid to fight a trade war” has become Beijing’s official line.

He has opted for a solo fight against a smarter, more patient, and more resilient adversary. So far, this is mostly political theater. But since Trump is overestimating his leverage and underestimating Chinese resolve, there is a real danger that the conflict will escalate.


The whole thing is worth reading... but I really don't see any way to argue with the analysis.

If he weren't in the pocket of the Russians, you'd almost have to suspect he devised the worst possible plan (to the extent he understands the concept of a 'plan') in a manner most certain to fail and fail as badly as possible.
   843. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5696426)
Trump signs executive order on keeping families together. what say you?
I'd say, "what took so long", and I'd also say "why was the policy so strenuously defended (by some) until that point"
   844. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5696428)
In terms of my actual beliefs, I consider myself a libertarian socialist. I think our political system IS absolutely rotten to the core. I am not happy to be forced to support it. You're right. I am not a neoliberal. America has dug its own grave for years. I don't mean to praise Bushes or Romneys or whoever. Saying that George Bush is a better option than Donald Trump is not praise for GWB. It is meant to illustrate how much of a dumpster fire this country has become.


I undoubtedly have Bush Derangement Syndrome. Also, I'm not sure why I expect US to get past our indoctrination that WE are an exceptional nation and regime... plus the all-too-human tendency to project our good eperi3nces universally. And Trump is right out there in your face being a yuge ass.

But I would argue he's just a n3xt stage leader in the decline of empire. Not to go all meta conspiracy, but Trump is serving the interests of a powerful elite in reorganizing the US domestically and globally. That he draws so mujch negative attention serves the usual purposes of controlling the public across the divide. The good ol' good cop bad cop routine of sorts. The yahoos are indeed useful idiots... but thry aren't the only ones.

I apologize for being an incorrigible ass much of the time. One of these days I will get to that last stage acceptance of grief. It's called my deathbed.
   845. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5696429)
I'm glad he caved.

My opinion of him is the same as it would be for a guy who stops smacking around a kid because I see it and tell him to stop.


Spot on. My reaction completely.
   846. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5696430)
Trump wiped his ass successfully after first expelling #### from it that necessitated a wiping.

Everybody cheer.

Is this truly where we are now?
   847. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5696433)
I apologize for being an incorrigible ass much of the time. One of these days I will get to that last stage acceptance of grief. It's called my deathbed.


I sincerely hope you are in good health man.
   848. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5696436)
Some time back I posited seven core beliefs, including materialism, and lately that has become more and more dialectical. We are a dommed species, but we might as well accept that struggle is our destiny and there's little reason not to go for broke.

Open borders. Embrace them.
   849. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5696438)
I apologize for being an incorrigible ass much of the time


You realize you wouldn't fit in here at all if you weren't, right?
   850. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5696440)
You said "most". I pointed out you were wrong.

If it bothers you have either your ignorance of very common and well-known words called to the carpet; or, to be called to carpet when you obviously were lying - then I see two avenues for you to avoid this discomfort. Use words in accordance with their definition or stop lying. Or both.

I said two things in #826, both of which are true:
That's consistent with your "illegal immigration isn't a problem" thesis, but most people disagree with that. That last election probably was decided because people didn't accept that thesis.

Most people do disagree with Count's contention that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Hillary certainly received votes from people concerned about illegal immigration, even if those concerns didn't cause them to vote for Trump. And most voters opted for a Republican Congress, not a Democratic one, going with the party that was perceived as more opposed to illegal immigration.

The other point I made was that Trump's opposition to illegal immigration was a key to his victory. If you don't think that is true, you were watching a different campaign.

I never said that Trump received more votes than Hillary, just that his opposition to illegal immigration was important to the votes he did get, which were enough to win. Zonk is the one being disingenuous here, and he's been lately reduced to making wild accusations of lying or extremism on those who dare to have an opinion that differs from his. It's Full Sam Stupidity, which is never a good look.
   851. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5696445)
I undoubtedly have Bush Derangement Syndrome. Also, I'm not sure why I expect US to get past our indoctrination that WE are an exceptional nation and regime... plus the all-too-human tendency to project our good eperi3nces universally. And Trump is right out there in your face being a yuge ass.


Because the ideal has value - significant value.

No doubt, it's a fragile, precious thing - easily corrupted and abused... The line between "My country, right or wrong" and "We CAN make the world better" is a thin one.

My relatively brief time abroad - plus the occasional conversation with colleagues from Europe, etc - does lead me to believe that it is almost uniquely American. It's not that other western democracies don't see global problems or even act to alleviate them. It's more of a sense to "do something"... almost a duty.

This is exactly why I think it's vitally important to own - and even champion - spirit behind something like Reagan's "shining city on a hill" even while damning him for illegally funding narco-terrorists who were blowing up nuns.

Proper usage of the ideal requires both - a sense of responsibility to hew to that spirit while simultaneously demanding better when it has been failed, even badly.

Perhaps it's a function of America's relative adolescence in such a role - European nations in various forms have been there before, of course. It's not unlike the fresh-faced graduate - with big hopes and dreams, changing the world... etc. That is not a bad thing - and no, it's also not a bad thing when one realizes and accepts virtually none of us are going to Einsteins or Lincolns or whatnot, settling into a more "act locally" role.

   852. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5696448)
I apologize for being an incorrigible ass much of the time. One of these days I will get to that last stage acceptance of grief. It's called my deathbed.


No apology to me is necessary. Your original post actually helped me refocus on the big picture. I don't know you as well as others as I'm relatively new here; but I do hope you're doing well and able to enjoy the things in life you enjoy (even if the Cubs defense makes you sick).


But I would argue he's just a n3xt stage leader in the decline of empire. Not to go all meta conspiracy, but Trump is serving the interests of a powerful elite in reorganizing the US domestically and globally. That he draws so mujch negative attention serves the usual purposes of controlling the public across the divide. The good ol' good cop bad cop routine of sorts. The yahoos are indeed useful idiots... but thry aren't the only ones.


I don't think this is a stretch. Capitalists are behaving the way you expect them to behave.


Open borders. Embrace them.


Agreed.
   853. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5696450)
I sincerely hope you are in good health man.


I'm not so bad for mid-50's, no medications, no serious health problems beside seasonal depression. I like beer but fight the temptation to smoke.

It actually gets a lot easier past the half century mark, barrring poor health.
   854. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5696453)
Also, my youngest, a rising hs senior, is now living with me, and I'm going to the pound this week to save some poor mutt. Fully employed to boot.

I will maintain my pessimism, but life's not bad right now.
   855. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5696454)
People whose deaths should be celebrated with a national parade: Henry Kissinger, Dick Cheney, Donald Trump, Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller
   856. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5696456)
People whose deaths should be celebrated with a national parade: Henry Kissinger, Dick Cheney, Donald Trump, Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller


That's a good starter list.
   857. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5696457)
Open borders. Embrace them.

Agreed.


One can't have an open market economy without open borders. (Also, asylum seekers should be given every benefit of the doubt, regardless.)
   858. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5696458)
Also, too many typos.
   859. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5696460)

Most people do disagree with Count's contention that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Hillary certainly received votes from people concerned about illegal immigration, even if those concerns didn't cause them to vote for Trump. And most voters opted for a Republican Congress, not a Democratic one, going with the party that was perceived as more opposed to illegal immigration.

The other point I made was that Trump's opposition to illegal immigration was a key to his victory. If you don't think that is true, you were watching a different campaign.

I never said that Trump received more votes than Hillary, just that his opposition to illegal immigration was important to the votes he did get, which were enough to win. Zonk is the one being disingenuous here, and he's been lately reduced to making wild accusations of lying or extremism on those who dare to have an opinion that differs from his. It's Full Sam Stupidity, which is never a good look.


So....

The Cliff notes...

1) Trump's were because of the reason I state, but Hillary's votes were not... because... reasons, I guess

2) For 4.5 more months, the congressional results reflect the same. Implicit, we all know, is that this will not be the case in November.

In any case, since your favorite poll of late happened to be the first google result -- let's take a look shall we?

It also doesn't seem to bear out your claims, does it? Indeed/even more - the trend actually is going in the opposite direction you claim.

   860. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5696469)
How is it not an accurate paraphrase of your first sentence of post 738?


Because (a) I never said the people in Deadwood would be watching the borders; and (b) it was a suggested hypothetical reaction by Deadwooders to hypothetical border watchings -- thus matching Wall's suggested hypothetical reaction of Deadwooders.
   861. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5696471)
Trump signs executive order on keeping families together. what say you?


I studiously avoid saying "I told you so" in real life and especially at work. But here, here I can totally say it.

I told you so!

The issue was a complete and total disaster for the GOP from the beginning and Trump is a coward. Of course he caved. I predicted it and it happened. If only my prediction regarding the last Presidential election had been so accurate. Oh well, win some lose some.
   862. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5696474)
The sad epilogues of Concession Boy covering his ass after stating the painfully and obviously incorrect are always so boring.

They remind me of people who insist on sitting through ALL of the movie credits because this one time, Ferris Bueller had an easter egg at the very end.

Pass.
   863. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5696475)
So why don't you tell us a bit about your professional career? I certainly don't mind being red-faced, and don't worry, nobody's going to dox you. But since you seem to be using your real name** I'm not sure what the reason is for your reticence.


Andy gets so, so needy when he realizes he's losing yet another one he thought was persuadable.
   864. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5696478)
In any case, since your favorite poll of late happened to be the first google result -- let's take a look shall we?

It also doesn't seem to bear out your claims, does it? Indeed/even more - the trend actually is going in the opposite direction you claim.

That poll says nothing about whether people agree with the absurd claim that "illegal immigration isn't a problem". Suggesting it does is being even more disingenuous. But if your party wants to claim "No Problem" is the popular stance, go right ahead. You don't mind if I use "Democrats Say Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" as a tag line, since it's such a popular stance?
   865. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5696481)
Point to SBB,


Probably easier just to set up a macro for that.
   866. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5696482)

Open borders. Embrace them.


While I generally embrace the spirit of the idea, the technocratic part of me wonders --

How do you deal with capital? I think it actually is upside that capital can traverse borders more easily than people, but that doesn't change the fact governments still need to exist, services still need to be funded, etc.

IOW - I see the idea not unlike 'Medicare for all' concepts... I like the vision, I worry about the particulars and details.
   867. Eddo Posted: June 20, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5696483)
You don't mind if I use "Democrats Say Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" as a tag line, since it's such a popular stance?

Whoa, you really got him! You're accusing the the party he supports of agreeing with a position he has taken! How dare you, good sir!
   868. Eddo Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5696484)
While I generally embrace the spirit of the idea [of open borders], the technocratic part of me wonders --

How do you deal with capital? I think it actually is upside that capital can traverse borders more easily than people, but that doesn't change the fact governments still need to exist, services still need to be funded, etc.

IOW - I see the idea not unlike 'Medicare for all' concepts... I like the vision, I worry about the particulars and details.

I agree. Immigration is not an easy issue, generally. Certainly not as easy as "too many immigrants is bad" or "immigration is an unequivocal good".
   869. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5696486)
Probably easier just to set up a macro for that.


I'm setting up a raspberry pi controlled tap to pour me a beer every time you post. But, I gotta give you credit, I chuckled.
   870. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5696487)
In case anyone wonders why SBB is so stingy with the Cokes (807), he ignores me for stalking him calling him out on his more egregious shit, like 793.
   871. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5696488)
That poll says nothing about whether people agree with the absurd claim that "illegal immigration isn't a problem". Suggesting it does is being even more disingenuous. But if your party wants to claim "No Problem" is the popular stance, go right ahead. You don't mind if I use "Democrats Say Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" as a tag line, since it's such a popular stance?


Oh?

Next, I'm going to read a list of problems facing the country. For each one, please tell me if you personally worry about this problem a great deal, a fair amount, only a little or not at all? How much do you personally worry about illegal immigration?


The fact is that the responses show the same trend the topline graph on immigration generally does. Even with your Trumpian mexican rapist claims - the "A Great Deal" respondents are well, well off their peaks off 15 years ago. Setting aside that one could - of course - answer the question with a "A Great Deal" from an 'open borders' perspective - the one response that has show the most consistent and sustained growth - and is now at all-time high.

NO PROBLEM... Or - as the poll's language uses "Not at all".
   872. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5696490)
How do you deal with capital? I think it actually is upside that capital can traverse borders more easily than people, but that doesn't change the fact governments still need to exist, services still need to be funded, etc.


Doesn't open borders imply that the State as we know it is dead? I dunno how that would work. There would have to a be a supra-abriter with punitive power. Almost sounds like Alex Jones' worst fever dreams.
   873. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5696494)
immigration is an unequivocal good".


That's not it -- it's that restriction is so much worse. As swoboda pointed out on page one, there was no problem until the US started enforcing things in the '70's. The current crisis is entirely due tonthe fact Mexicans can no longer go home again, so they've brought the entire family to the US.

At some point you have to say "no" to the lesser of two evils.
   874. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:13 PM (#5696495)
Doesn't open borders imply that the State as we know it is dead? I dunno how that would work. There would have to a be a supra-abriter with punitive power. Almost sounds like Alex Jones' worst fever dreams.


Heh, yeah - I suppose you're right about that.

In the current State form - would such a concept also require reciprocal agreements to work?

IDK...

I guess I can't really sign up for open borders. I can sign up for dizzying-number-of-lanes open freeway borders.
   875. Count Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5696500)
Trump’s EO doesn’t solve the problem, since he’s ordering family detention which a judge ruled was illegal. He is just going to blame the judiciary when he loses. Families don’t have to be detained pending asylum claims at all. You have to not care at all, like YC, to favor this policy. (And then blame the parents for having the gall to raise asylum claims!)
   876. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5696502)
You don't mind if I use "Democrats Say Illegal Immigration Isn't A Problem" as a tag line, since it's such a popular stance?

Whoa, you really got him! You're accusing the the party he supports of agreeing with a position he has taken! How dare you, good sir!

I think most of the Democratic Party leadership isn't as honest as Zonk, or is more concerned about the electoral consequences, so they hope they can dupe the rubes a little longer. But perhaps I'm being unkind, and we should accept that Zonk has again articulated the Dems position on illegal immigration.
   877. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5696503)
And then blame the parents for having the gall to raise asylum claims!)


I believe his word were dubious claims. Or may frivolous claims. "What, you're fleeing narco terrorist violence? To bad. Move to the suburbs like we do here."
   878. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5696504)
I think most of the Democratic Party leadership isn't as honest as Zonk, or is more concerned about the electoral consequences, so they hope they can dupe the rubes a little longer. But perhaps I'm being unkind, and we should accept that Zonk has again articulated the Dems position on illegal immigration.


Call 911! I'm overdosing on irony!

Dupe the rubes, says Mr MS-13, Mexican rapists, Mexico will pay for it, etc...
   879. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5696506)
I think most of the Democratic Party leadership isn't as honest as Zonk, or is more concerned about the electoral consequences, so they hope they can dupe the rubes a little longer.


Our very own Ray, no Democrat he, says he supports far more immigration, especially from south of the border. As well as a more lenient asylum procedure. It's not just a D position.
   880. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5696507)
Despite Speaker-for-life Paul Ryan's brave morning statements, it now sounds like the House bill ain't gonna happen.

Does Speaker-for-life Ryan bring up a bill for vote that looks like it might fail - only to have Chinless fulfill his oft-stated promise that the Senate won't be taking it up anyway?

Only the rubes know...
   881. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5696511)
Doesn't open borders imply that the State as we know it is dead?


It implies an evolution of the nation-state into the market-state, which is neither shocking, surprising nor ahistorical. The imperial states of antiquity collapsed. In their places sprang up the princely states, which gave way to the kingly states, which gave way to nation states. Nation states have held sway as the organizational principle since the collapse of monarchical kingdoms. The American experiment was originally a radical madness where neither nationalities nor kings ruled. In it's original form, the republic was a legal framework of lesser state-like entities, in cooperative market and law based bounds. It was anti-nationalistic before nationalism ever really took off. Which is why we played such a vital role in the post-War order. We were proof positive that the reactionary ##### of Europe barking about ubernationalism as the only way (i.e. the fascists) were full of #### and that a constitutional market-order was feasible.

NAFTA was an attempt to move the market-state ideal to a more internationalist level, while avoiding the pitfalls of the 20th centuries other, less humane internationalist creed (Soviet Communism.) Of course, the failure of NAFTA and its follow-on global trade agreements, is that they were crafted by and for capital ONLY. And left in place arbitrary stupidities such as "you were born below that river, you can't come work here." They were too timid to embrace the actual concept of a post-nation state world.

This is why the rise of Trump is so dangerous and disheartening. It is the bubbling back up of archaic hatreds and concepts that have proven to be unnecessary.

Which is a long way to say my favorite thing; nationalism is always stupid.
   882. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5696512)
Our very own Ray, no Democrat he, says he supports far more immigration, especially from south of the border


Well yeah. Ray isn't going to clean his own condo, man.
   883. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5696514)
Well said, Sam.
   884. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5696518)
Trump’s EO doesn’t solve the problem, since he’s ordering family detention which a judge ruled was illegal. He is just going to blame the judiciary when he loses.

The Executive Order also directs the Justice Department to attempt to re-open that settlement that required that minors only be held for 20 days.
   885. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5696520)
More accurately, I poked fun at Andy for thinking that "Howie Menckel" was Howie's real name, apparently missing or forgetting many posts making clear it wasn't. I did mention that Andy must have also never looked at Howie's BBTF profile, but, IMHO, that's not an excuse for the "I got you dox covered" post linking to non-BBTF material connected to the real Howie. In any case, sorry for my contribution here, Howie.

I logged off after issuing that challenge to Howie in #813, so I've just caught up to the subsequent replies. I never even thought of looking at Howie's profile, and I assumed he was using his real name. I've known many journalists past and present, and this is the first time I've ever encountered one who was shy about revealing his real identity.

All of which still leaves unanswered the request I made originally, which was for "Howie" to provide links to some of his published articles, so we can have some possible political context behind his many opinions here. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request to make of a journalist, but maybe that's just me.
   886. Count Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5696521)
I’m fine with border enforcement combined with more immigration and asylum and refugee admission, and some path to citizenship for people already here. Gratuitous cruelty and a focus on keeping America white is not good.
   887. Lassus Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5696522)
Inasmuch as I'd thought about it, which was maybe once in the last 10 years, I sorta assumed Howie Menckel was actually Howie's real name, I guess. And I've even met Howie, but... didn't really remember what he'd been introduced as.
   888. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5696523)
Inasmuch as I'd thought about it, which was maybe once in the last 10 years, I sorta assumed Howie Menckel was actually Howie's real name, I guess.


I did the same for quite some while, but IIRC he talked about the handle's origin a few years back.
   889. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5696524)
Gratuitous cruelty and a focus on keeping America white is not good


That this isn't obvious boggles my mind.
   890. dlf Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:13 PM (#5696525)
The Executive Order also directs the Justice Department to attempt to re-open that settlement that required that minors only be held for 20 days.


The only time I've been involved in something sorta similar -- a state trying to reopen a federal consent decree related to prison conditions after a change in who was governor -- the judge laughed the defendants out of court. That one anecdote doesn't mean diddly, so I keep an open mind. But I'd be mildly surprised if more rigorous data would suggest any but a remote chance of success at this legal maneuver.
   891. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5696526)
All of which still leaves unanswered the request I made originally, which was for "Howie" to provide links to some of his published articles, so we can have some possible political context behind his many opinions here. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request to make of a journalist, but maybe that's just me.


Nope, it isn't just you.
   892. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5696528)
"I will be signing something in a little while," is the Trump quote

Ray will be devastated to find out the Trumpkin line he's been peddling all week turns out to be incorrect (or dishonest... or both).


Huh? I said over and over again that this was terrible policy.
   893. Ray (CTL) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5696529)
The last time I laughed this hard at a Ray post was when he was explaining how illegals always litter when they're remodeling homes.

I must've missed that one.


So did I.
   894. perros Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5696531)
It is the bubbling back up of archaic hatreds and concepts that have proven to be unnecessary.

I might suggest aimless youth with nothing better to do but get high, watch porn, and surf the alt-right internet as a major factor in this resurgence (see Dylann Roof). Non-contact with daily reality is a big problem.
   895. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5696533)
Huh? I said over and over again that this was terrible policy.


Oh #### off, you piece of ####.
   896. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5696534)
Huh? I said over and over again that this was terrible policy.


And you claimed even more that no one was talking about any solutions and we had to have a solution before we could complain, and yet Trump seems to have realized he could solve the problem. And when (if) he loses in court he will still be able to solve the problem all by himself.
   897. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 20, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5696536)
Trump did what many people demanded he do: Sign an EO that reversed his Executive Policy of enforcing a law that's been unenforced during previous administrations. Little Lord Fauntleray Omega Dancing Monkey imbecile hot cocoa drinking footie pajama wearing ####### child said that wasn't a solution, yesterday. Now? "I said it was a horrible policy", as if that absolves him of being the piece of #### that he is.

   898. greenback slays lewks Posted: June 20, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5696538)
[An open borders policy] implies an evolution of the nation-state into the market-state, which is neither shocking, surprising nor ahistorical.

This greatly overstates personal mobility. The elites have always moved across borders with ease; part of what makes North Korea so alien is the fact that elites are effectively restricted there. As an obvious point, in the US people can freely live in California or northern Virginia, and yet they continue to live in #### holes like West Virginia and Flint.

The only principled opposition to open borders that I can see is racially motivated. All the rest is people worrying about next week's polls instead of the Overton window. How's that strategy working for the D's these days?
   899. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 20, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5696540)
Ah nice Ray's home from the office, has laid down with his Waifu blanket, and is ready for more.
   900. -- Posted: June 20, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5696541)
All of which still leaves unanswered the request I made originally, which was for "Howie" to provide links to some of his published articles, so we can have some possible political context behind his many opinions here. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request to make of a journalist, but maybe that's just me.


Nah, it's just your typical way of not engaging what people say here and instead searching for irrelevant extraneous details.
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