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Friday, December 12, 2008

Ibanez, Phillies agrees to deal

YIKES! Choker chain needed in LF.

The Phillies have agreed to a three-year contract with free-agent outfielder Raul Ibanez, pending a physical. The deal is believed to be worth $30 million over three years.

The 36-year-old Ibanez will become the Phillies’ new every-day leftfielder, and his signing means the Phillies no longer will pursue their long-time leftfielder, Pat Burrell, who is also a free agent.

Ibanez had drawn significant interest from a number of teams, including the Cubs, Mets, Angels and Braves. But he had been sending signals through friends that the Phillies were his first choice. And the Phillies stepped up their efforts to sign him Thursday after it became known that the Angels were also negotiating the parameters of a deal with Ibanez as their No. 1 alternative if they lost out in efforts to sign Mark Teixeira.

Repoz Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:05 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: phillies

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1. The Pequod Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:16 PM (#3027313)

Well, at least we know the Phillies can win with terrible defense in left field.

2. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:17 PM (#3027314)

Charlie Manuel just loves using defensive replacements in LF, I guess.

3. Raskolnikov Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:21 PM (#3027317)

Ibanez is a pretty good hitter. Still, this is a step down from Burrell, so this is a not necessarily bad news.

The NL East needs to load up on lefties to deal with the Philly offense.

4. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:24 PM (#3027319)

No, everybody'll just need one, 'cause they're sure to bat back-to-back-to-back.

5. RollingWave Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:30 PM (#3027330)

3???? Jesus christ, enjoy them lawn darts

6. Conor Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:36 PM (#3027336)

Does this make Perez more attractive to the Mets now?

For what its worth, against Perez in his career, Ryan Howard is hitting 091/192/227 with 14 Ks in 26 PA.
Utley is hitting 188/381/250 but with only 4 Ks in 21 PA.

7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#3027344)

I still remember when he signed with the Mariners, that a three year deal was probably a bad idea because he'd fall off a cliff. I will not doubt Raul anymore, he must be one of the undead that never ever declines.

8. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: December 12, 2008 at 03:47 PM (#3027348)

I hope the phillies fans like warren zevon.

9. rfloh Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#3027356)

Raskolnikov Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:21 AM (#3027317)
Ibanez is a pretty good hitter. Still, this is a step down from Burrell, so this is a not necessarily bad news.

The NL East needs to load up on lefties to deal with the Philly offense.

Well, he's older than Burrell, so he is probably more likely to decline quicker. But, production wise, Ibanez and Burrell, and have been pretty damn similar the last 3 seasons.

10. Chris in Wicker Park Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:10 PM (#3027365)

as a met fan, glad that he's not available anymore. he's been great offensively, but he's worse than burrell, dunn and ramirez defensively. and as others suggest, he could go from old to too old pretty quickly.

11. Bad Doctor Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:15 PM (#3027371)

Well, he's older than Burrell, so he is probably more likely to decline quicker. But, production wise, Ibanez and Burrell, and have been pretty damn similar the last 3 seasons.

Yeah, just considering Ibanez qua Ibanez, I'm looking at him as having similar production to Burrell the last few years, but providing it in a more well-rounded package (little less power and OBP, much more contact, not quite as horrendous D and baserunning). The age concerns me, but Burrell, though "only" 31, is a damn old 31. Not seeing much of AL teams west of the Mississippi, I was surprised that Ibanez is a lefty. Always though he was a righty, and that's obviously of some concern in this line-up.

What I cannot get around is what this means for the decision to not offer arb to Burrell. I bit my tongue at the time, because I wasn't sure how serious the rumors about Ibanez were, and there seemed to be other names (like Baldelli or a revitalized Jenkins) floated. But if signing Ibanez was their top option for filling the LF hole, not offering arb to Burrell makes less than zero sense.

12. The Pequod Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:15 PM (#3027372)

It'll be interesting to see what Burrell gets. If he ends up with similar money, the Phillies would seem to have given up their first round pick just to run in place, at least from a production standpoint.

13. The cushions are crowded for Edmundo

Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:31 PM (#3027395)

I posted this in the Dugout, based on no insider knowledge, just surmising from the various hints that have floated in the papers and DNL.

Why did the Phillies prefer Ibanez to Burrell?
It's been a puzzlement to Phillies fans ever since they didn't offer arb to Burrell. The thinking was that Burrell might get as much as 16M in arb and the numbers 3/45 have been thrown around a lot as to where Burrell will end up salary-wise.
I know Ibanez is supposed to be an awful OF -- what is he bad at? With Burrell it was only range, every other phase was at least acceptable.
Another thought is that the Phils might be thinking that Burrell's days as a full-time OF are over. Charlie substituted a defensive replacement as soon as he could when the Phils had the lead and Burrell also faded down the stretch. He's gotten some nicks over the years, so maybe he's only good for 100-120 games a season. Not saying that I am convinced of that, but the club might be.
Just as the fans had grown appreciative of what Burrell brings, it's time to leave.

14. billyshears Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#3027398)

This is more years and money than I thought he would get. I think Ibanez was the worst of the major FA corner outfielders, but it is pretty close amongst him, Abreu, Dunn and Burrell. I imagine this deal sets the market for those guys. I would guess that Dunn gets a bit more than this, but not a whole lot more.

15. Johnny Tuttle Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#3027399)

That's a good point, #12. Bled pick for an older and possibly worse player (if not now, certainly likely for 2011) or at best a similar player. Excellent observation--that makes you overqualified to be their GM, I guess.

With Dunn, Holliday, Manny, and Burrell all availale or moving teams this year, Ibanez seems very ho-hum, especially as his defense enables me to pitch Manny and Dunn for OF duty without flinching. (Sorry Blanton)

16. Esoteric Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:36 PM (#3027402)

[double post]

17. Esoteric Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#3027409)

I'd like to take this moment to introduce Phillies fans to some of my favorite moments during 2008's awful Mariners campaign. That's right...we're talking about Raul Ibanez's hilarious defensive miscues. Click on the following links (courtesy of Lookout Landing) for of the most entertaining .GIFs you've seen in your life:

- Lawn Dart!
- Bad Angle!
- He didn't want to fumble or bobble the Fingal dopple!
- Into The Wall!
- Ichiro Just Can't Believe This Sh*t
- It's A Trap!
- The sad part about this one is that you can see it in his eyes - he knows it's not going to end well.

Good luck with that defense, Phils! I hate to break it to you, but absent some amazing offensive spike due to a new league/ballpark, you're losing more on defensive than you're gaining with the bat. Can you say "Charlie Manuel-dictated 7th inning defensive replacement?"

18. Alan S Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:54 PM (#3027425)

As a Mets fan, I approve. Ibanez certainly isn't bad, but I don't want him on the Mets, and I'd rather the Phillies have him than Burrell or Dunn.

19. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 12, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#3027426)

Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting the first time that Phillies fans get a look at Paulino's general level of effort behind the plate.

20. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: December 12, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#3027452)

Kudos to #17 for his contribution, if you don't laugh out loud at a few of those you've got the cold, blackened heart of a player agent.

21. formerly dp Posted: December 12, 2008 at 05:27 PM (#3027457)

No one could watch those clips and not enjoy them. As a baseball fan, Ibanez is good fr the game.

Dunn should get at least $13 M, right? As much as the Mets need a LF, I'm not ready for them to spend $10 M plus on one. Unless they get someone who will move to 1b when Delgado's done.

22. salvomania Posted: December 12, 2008 at 05:29 PM (#3027459)

- It's A Trap!

That one was hilarious... the pitcher's (Felix?) grimace is classic... he goes from getting out of the first with zero runs to having 2 runs score and another in scoring position...

23. ColonelTom Posted: December 12, 2008 at 05:35 PM (#3027466)

If Dunn gets only $13M a season, Burrell will probably get less, and this signing looks absolutely horrible. Sadly, I could see it happening. That's why you don't jump early when the market is this soft, especially when you're forfeiting a draft pick for the privilege.

24. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 12, 2008 at 05:58 PM (#3027498)

One of the nicest guys in the game. But this is...far from exciting. And the draft pick thing is maddening.

25. Rodder Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#3027520)

Also maddening is the left-handed thing. Though I am in the camp that lefty vs. righty is often over rated; Utley, Ibanez and Howard all hit worse against lefties for their career. Late in the game (and especially in a playoff situation), this group will be assured of facing lefties. They had been before, bat at least it gave Burrell a bit of an advantage. I don't see how putting all three together could be avoided. Here is one possibility.

Rollins
Victorino
Utley
Howard
Worth
Ibanez
Feliz
Ruiz

26. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:13 PM (#3027530)

Late in the game it won't be Ibanez anyway. So Taguchi will be in for defense.

27. Padraic Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:14 PM (#3027531)

So far, the Amaro moves have consisted in:

Trading a failed first round pick for another failed first round pick.
Trading a backup catcher for a backup catcher.
Allowing one poor defensive OF go to sign another one for more years, and at the expense of a draft pick.

I was fine with trying for a cheap platoon in LF while waiting for Taylor/Mayberry/Brown...or for overpaying Burrell for one year...but this makes no sense. Oh, well.

28. Rodder Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:18 PM (#3027535)

I was fine with trying for a cheap platoon in LF while waiting for Taylor/Mayberry/Brown...or for overpaying Burrell for one year...but this makes no sense. Oh, well.

I read somewhere the Phils were kicking tires on Juan Rivera. I wouldn't have minded him for two years at half the salary rate of Ibanez, leaving Worth in full time, and moving Jenkin's playing time to mainly in left.

29. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:21 PM (#3027537)

Padraic is correct. The departure of Pat Gillick means there is no grace period, benefit of the doubt, or honeymooon, whichever cliche you prefer, because the same people are not making the decisions now as were before.

On the other hand...last year the Mets' big move was replacing the corpse of Tom Glavine with Johan Santana, and the Phils' big move was replacing Aaron Rowand with Pedro Feliz, and yet this did not improve the Mets' position, because of various little things.

Can Ibañez play first base? I still think there's a nonzero chance that Ryan Howard's career will be over by the end of this decade. What if he hits .203 next year and only gets, say, three first-place MVP votes? I might non-tender him, if I understood what "non-tender" meant.

30. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:32 PM (#3027557)

The "underrated but declining player" is always a conundrum. It seems like you can get him for less than he's worth. But next season, he'll be worth less than he was this season, and you don't know how much less. And he's not going to get any better. Eventually he might become OVERrated while under your control, which must be maddening.

See Mike Cameron.

On the other hand, he is definitely worth at least 3X what Kyle Farnsworth is worth, so by that standard this is a steal. It's all in what angle you approach things from.

31. PreservedFish Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:34 PM (#3027559)

What #18 says

32. The Gurus DO NOT BourbonSamurai Posted: December 12, 2008 at 06:37 PM (#3027564)

I love the bad angle video...it demands a stooges style soundtrack of "whoop whoop whoop"

33. AROM Posted: December 12, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#3027605)

but he's worse than burrell, dunn and ramirez defensively.

I don't think we can definitively say that, as the defensive metrics don't agree with each other, and even if they all agreed we're just looking at sample data subject to error.

I think we can be comfortable saying they are all bad left fielders, costing their teams somewhere around 10-15 runs per year.

And I'm ecstatic that he's no longer Angels plan B! I hope all the other "alternatives" sign quickly except for one, and if Tex leaves, the Angels will be "stuck" having to offer a deal to Milton Bradley.

34. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: December 12, 2008 at 07:18 PM (#3027611)

I still think there's a nonzero chance that Ryan Howard's career will be over by the end of this decade. What if he hits .203 next year and only gets, say, three first-place MVP votes? I might non-tender him, if I understood what "non-tender" meant.

Every December, clubs have to renew their reserve on a player by tendering a contract for the following season. If the Phillies thought Howard was slated to make some outlandish sum in arbitration that they were unwilling to pay, they could forfeit their reserve rights by not tendering him a contract, freeing themselves of the obligation to pay the arbitration award and freeing him to sign anywhere for whatever the market would bear.

35. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 12, 2008 at 07:20 PM (#3027616)

How is that different from "not offering arbitration"?

I mean, offering arbitration is offering a renewal of the contract, right?

36. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#3027626)

How is that different from "not offering arbitration"?

It's the same for 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th year players. You can also nontender players who aren't yet eligible for arbitration.

37. Walt Davis Posted: December 12, 2008 at 08:39 PM (#3027716)

if I understood what "non-tender" meant.

Y'know, when you're with your girlfriend, and you say some sweet things and hold her hand and give her soft kisses -- you're being tender.

Do you want to be tender with Ryan Howard?

38. Still Waiting on Pork Chops (John R.) Posted: December 12, 2008 at 08:52 PM (#3027744)

I hope all the other "alternatives" sign quickly except for one, and if Tex leaves, the Angels will be "stuck" having to offer a deal to Milton Bradley.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the Angels are a perfect fit for Bradley. They have depth to cover for the 40-50 games a year he will miss, and he will be great protection for Vlad when he's in the lineup.

That's why I'm hoping that, since MB wants a multi-year contract, and Jon Boy isn't biting, he hurries up and joins the Ranger Alumni Association, Chicago office...

39. Bill Liming Posted: December 12, 2008 at 08:57 PM (#3027754)

What's the word on what Baldelli will end up getting? He seems like he'd be a perfect fit as 3.5 (as opposed to 4th) OF for a team like the Phillies who need a RHB for a platoon and big time defensive sub and who could therefore find a few hundred ABs for a guy in an OF rotation. Has Baldelli's health situation improved to the point where he'd be a good bet for more PT than that?

40. Darnell McDonald had a farm Posted: December 12, 2008 at 08:58 PM (#3027757)

"Do you want to be tender with Ryan Howard?"

Inconceivable!

41. Rodder Posted: December 12, 2008 at 09:20 PM (#3027784)

He seems like he'd be a perfect fit as 3.5 (as opposed to 4th) OF for a team like the Phillies who need a RHB for a platoon and big time defensive sub and who could therefore find a few hundred ABs for a guy in an OF rotation.

Word is that the Phil's had inquired about Baldelli as well. But now they have five OF's on the team, Ibañez, Victorino, Worth, Jenkins & Stairs, plus Bruntlett who they also can send out there. With the righty Mayberry in AAA, and a need for more second base support due to Utley's hip, I don't think the Phils add any more outfielders.

42. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:07 PM (#3027867)

The thing to remember about Ibanez' defense is that the problems are not through lack of trying. He's giving 100% out there. He just doesn't catch the ball very well...

43. Lassus Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:39 PM (#3027894)

But now they have ~~five~~ 3.666666666 or so OF's on the team: Ibañez, Victorino, Worth, Jenkins & Stairs...

44. AJM Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:43 PM (#3027897)

I approve.

45. alkeiper Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:50 PM (#3027911)

Also maddening is the left-handed thing. Though I am in the camp that lefty vs. righty is often over rated; Utley, Ibanez and Howard all hit worse against lefties for their career.

Virtually any LHB is going to hit worse against left handed pitching. Utley though finished second in the majors in OPS among lefties facing lefties, behind only Joe Mauer.

46. Padraic Posted: December 12, 2008 at 10:52 PM (#3027918)

Baldelli made lots of sense. So did Rivera. I assume the Phillies just felt Jenkins could just not start anymore...but of course one year of Burrell would have helped there too.

Now, the 13 position players are pretty much set, save for an addition to fill in for Utley and/or Feliz due to injury:

C
Ruiz
Paulino

IF
Howard
Utley
Rollins
Feliz
Dobbs
Bruntlett

OF
Ibanez
Werth
Vic
Stairs
Jenkins

Weird thing will be the bench on most days: backup catcher, utlility player, Dobbs (LH), Stairs (LH), Jenkins (LH). Given the way Manuel used his PH last year, I would be surprised if Jenkins got 100 AB this year.

47. Bill Liming Posted: December 12, 2008 at 11:12 PM (#3027938)

Sunk costs being what they are, there's really no reason they couldn't cut bait on Jenkins and Bruntlett and drop a little more dough on a RH backup IF and/or OF who could actually hit a little. That'd make too much sense, though.

And Mayberry looks like the definition of underwhelming as the fallback option in LF.

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Friday, December 12, 2008

Ibanez, Phillies agrees to deal

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