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1. OCD SS Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:48 PM (#4336962)You should never want your team to sign Brett Myers. That's bad juju.
The Indians have been trading major leaguers for major leaguers in their trades so far.
Out: Shin-Soo Choo
In: Nick Swisher (free agent)
Out: Any hope of Grady Sizemore
In: Drew Stubbs
Out: Tony Sipp, Esmil Rogers, Rafael Perez
In: Does it matter?
Out: Jason Donald
In: Mike Aviles
Out: Jack Hannahan (free agent)
In: Lonnie Chisenhall, hopefully, again
Out: Casey Kotchman (free agent)
In: Mark Reynolds (free agent)
Out: I don't think they lost any pitchers from last year's awful rotation, except Fausberto Carmondez, and of course Derek Lowe
In: Brett Myers (free agent), Trevor Bauer
Well, they've only traded Choo (they also traded two whatever middle relievers and utility guy, but got exactly those spots back in their deals), who was never going to re-sign there. They got six years of a talented young pitcher (something they desperately needed). Otherwise they're just plugging in a couple holes where they got negative WAR last year. I'm not sure they think they're gaming the system or anything by avoiding sub-replacement play at 1B and in the rotation.
I'll take "neither" for $200, Alex.
Also better than the Liriano deal.
A quick refresher:
I wouldn't want him pitching for my team if he were willing to do it for free. I don't care if Liriano literally gets his clothes knocked off his body by line drives every time he pitches like Charlie Brown. He's still an infinitely better addition than a piece of human garbage like Myers.
I'm not downplaying domestic assault but I don't think you can make a person unemployable because of one incident. Liriano endangered people's lives with a DUI but apparently you think that's fabulous.
I might be willing to stop shunning him after he dies.
That means virtually nothing in domestic violence cases. There isn't any real ambiguity about what happened here - he smacked her around in the middle of a public street, the incident included an extensive selection of violent actions, and there were several credible independent witnesses who all told pretty much the same story.
Yes, you are. That's exactly what you're doing.
No, I think that's repulsive. Just less so than deliberately beating a defenseless woman.
Domestic assault sentencing guidelines for a first offense are typically 0-180 days in jail, up to 3 years probation, a small fine and counseling. We're well beyond any of those timelines.
Paraphrasing your quote:
"[Liriano the drunk driver is] still an infinitely better addition than a piece of human garbage like Myers."
He didn't say that these guys should be banned from baseball. He said he wouldn't want them pitching for his team.
I think they should be able to work - just not collect lucrative paychecks in prestigious, high-profile occupations. If someone wants to pay him to do the sort of jobs that violent ex-cons get (janitorial work, day labor, fast food, etc.) that'd be fine, I guess. But earning a living in MLB is a privilege, not a right.
I agree that the sentencing guidelines for that crime are in general much too lenient. What's your point?
Yes, that's true. Both are bad, one is worse. If you had to take one or the other, you'd take Liriano. In an ideal world, you'd take neither.
That's kind of a moot point, since I don't think that MLB has the power to formally ban him even if it wanted to, but if I ran a team, I certainly wouldn't sign him. I don't like men who beat women. I like to think that most people have the good sense to agree with that, though I guess there are occasional exceptions.
Except he's not an ex-con. He wasn't convicted of anything.
That, and that Myers is such an otherwise unremarkable player that its the only thing we remember him for. Miguel Cabrera has a domestic abuse case in his file too, but we remember him for being a loveable drunk who wins Triple Crowns.
All I said was that I didn't think it's a good signing because Myers is a demonstrably terrible human being, and his presence on Cleveland's roster tarnishes their reputation. It's a relevant issue and a matter of considerable public interest - for example, Paul Hoynes's Plain Dealer article on the signing mentions Myers's domestic violence arrest before his career numbers or his 2011 salary.
I don't really care whether or not there's a discussion about "how bad it is to assault women" - I think most people understand that doing that is repugnant, and that the people who do that kind of thing are the lowest of the low, right beside pimps and pederasts and guys who sell fake cancer cures to the desperately ill.
The domestic violence thing is weird. For some guys (Meyers, Lugo, Cordero) it sticks forever. Others (Milton B., Bobby Cox, Derek Lowe) aren't so blessed. There doesn't seem to be a standard explanation why.
The beating of his wife is the thing that makes him repulsive, not his presence or absence in a jail cell. OJ Simpson is repulsive, too, even though he was acquitted of murdering his ex-wife.
I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt on these sorts of things (to one extent or another) when circumstances warrant it. But this is pretty clear-cut, given the public setting and the number of witnesses.
If Myers were a repeat abuser, you would be correct to describe him as repugnant. But based on one incident, for which no charges were filed, and which his wife apparently forgave him, I think that's a big overstretch.
The fact that he lost it once (to our knowledge) and did a very bad thing, doesn't mean he's irredeemable scum for the rest of his life. Certainly not in the realm of pimps and pederasts.
I wonder if the remembered ones happened on slower news days (with thus more attention paid to them).
Or maybe the media had less interest in reporting on the problem with some players than with others (e.g. Boy Scouts).
If you want to forgive him, feel free. I don't. Maybe you can invite him over to have a beer, try and fix him up with your daughter.
What about pimps who only coerced one woman into having sex for money, or pederasts who only molested one child?
It must have been tough for Milton Berle to do anything, domestically, that didn't cause pain.
Except that's not what you said. You said drunk driving is "infinitely better" than assault. I would interpret that to mean that you think drunk driving is just dandy. Go ahead and change your tune but at least be consistent with your outrage. The Braves should have fired Bobby Cox, the Tigers should have cut Miguel Cabrera, etc.
So it's okay if you do it in the privacy of your own home?
It's pretty obvious that he meant Myers' guilt is clear-cut compared to cases that happen in private and are simply he-said-she-said.
Still far, far worse than a simple assault that seems to have caused no serious injury.
Are you serious? Would you rather be punched in the face or raped?
Sure, in the sense that a punch to the stomach is "infinitely better" than a kick to the groin. A is better than B, ergo B is worse than A.
It's not my fault that you suck at reading comprehension.
Why do you think that's some kind of "gotcha"? The Braves should have fired Cox. Cabrera is tougher, since he was already under contract at the time he hit his wife. I think the best course there would have been to try and trade him, and if that failed, to let him walk as a free agent when his deal was up.
It's not OK to do it anywhere, but if you do it in the privacy of your own home, there's going to be less evidence that you did it, and it's going to be harder for a third party like me to determine what actually happened. Try to keep up.
[Edited because I had the timeline of Cabrera's trade and assault wrong.]
A punch to the stomach is not infinitely better than a kick to the groin, falling in love at the beach with a baseball game on the radio is infinitely better than a kick to the groin.
I'm sure that's exactly how most women would see it. Why don't you try asking one how she'd feel if her significant other hit her in the face, pulled her to her feet by the hair, and exposed her breasts in public?
Civilized people deserving of respect wouldn't do either of those things to a woman. Which is exactly the point.
Falling in love at the beach with a baseball game on the radio is infinitely better than both. That's just how infinity works.
I'm sure she'd feel a lot better than if he pimped her out or raped her.
Civilized people deserving of respect wouldn't do either of those things to a woman. Which is exactly the point.
Yet one is 1000 times worse.
Civilized people don't spit of the floor either. Doesn't mean it compares to either an assault or a rape.
Again, so what? Murdering one woman isn't as bad as murdering 30+, but I wouldn't invite a guy who murdered a woman over to my place for beer and barbecue even if he correctly pointed out that his crimes weren't as bad as Ted Bundy's. They're both ########, and I don't want anything to do with either of them.
Look, by general societal standards, we don't ostracize people who commit simple assault. Normal, decent people occasionally lose it and commit simple assault. It's not in the same league as rape, murder, etc.
Do you really want to guess how many professional athletes have committed a simple assault on a weaker person (or in a group attacking a single person)?
I think it's sexist to see punching a woman as worse than punching a man given the same circumstances.
Well, you at least have to adjust for strength. Punching a woman is generally more cowardly b/c the man knows he is much stronger and won't get hurt.
Punching a 5'4" 120 lb. woman is like punching an old, feeble man.
Myers has also had a couple of hothead moments... I have recollection of him getting into physical altercation with a reporter near the end of his Philly tenure and having to be restrained by teammates.
If I were a GM, I'd probably a '######### file' -- any negotiations with to acquire or sign people from that file would require a sit-down conversation where said dbag would have to explain and show sincerity for having reformed his ways... I have no doubt plenty of players - good ones, especially - would tell me to #### off and ply their trade elsewhere.
Actually - now that I think about it, I'd probably need to be the team owner rather than GM to maintain and act upon by dbag file.
Maybe you don't. Like I said, you're free to associate with whatever ######## you want.
Please provide me with an example of a "normal, decent person" who beat his wife.
Yeah, given the same circumstances
In addition to sucking at reading comprehension, you also apparently suck at math. This may be helpful.
If Myers punched his much-smaller-and-weaker boyfriend, that'd be an ####### move, too.
"Beat his wife" typically characterizes a pattern of abuse. What we seem to have here is a single incident (that we know of). Myer's wife has stayed with him, and she's not trapped; she'd get a hefty divorce settlement in any state, even with pure no fault. I would assume most cases of an isolated incidence of violence don't make the papers.
To personalize it, I could see forgiving my wife for hitting me in the head with a baseball bat (adding the weapon to generate equivalent menace) causing no serious injury.
No, "beat his wife" means that he beat his wife. As in, delivered a beating to a woman to whom he was married.
I take your post #47 to be an admission that you can't come up with an example of a "normal, decent person" who beat his wife.
Do you have a file on the illicit activities of normal decent people that I can cross-reference?
Everyone seemed to love Bobby Cox for the last 10 years.
Afraid not, sorry.
Just because there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2 does not make 2 infinitely bigger than 1.
I think it's offensive to janitors, day laborers and food service employees that you think their job somehow makes them lesser than someone who plays baseball for a living.
Bobby Cox isn't a normal, decent person. Bobby Cox is an #######.
But no one treated him that way for the last decade of his tenure.
Your logic is circular. By definition the one incident brands a person an a perpetual reporbate.
I, on the other hand, can see forgiving a person for an isolated incident of anger. I certain don't see one simple assault as any morally worse than serial adultery (which probably defines 50% of pro athletes).
I agree with you there. I just think an ####### should take his punishment and then get back to life as usual. I also think banishment from society is an entirely unreasonable punishment for assault.
Where did I say that drunk driving was 2 and wife-beating was 1?
Where did I say that the people who do those jobs are "lesser"?
In my lifetime, I've done both janitorial and food service work. They're perfectly legitimate and honorable occupations, but they're also unpleasant tasks that don't pay very well. For those reasons, the people who fill those jobs tend to be people who (for whatever reason) don't have any better options at that time. If they could get a less unpleasant job or one that paid more money, such as playing major league baseball, they'd do that. And as time passes, most of the ones who can move on to better jobs, do.
Since most employers are understandably reluctant to hire ex-cons with a history of violence, they tend to fall down to unpleasant, low-paying jobs. Some of my former co-workers were ex-cons living in a halfway house. One got arrested in the middle of his shift, and dragged out of the kitchen in handcuffs. So it goes.
I can't control what other people do. If I could, I would've kept Myers and Cox from beating their wives in the first place.
If Cox wasn't treated that way, then he should have been, and it's a shame that he wasn't.
...says the guy who says that any difference is infinite difference
Where did I say that?
I really wish people would stop putting words in my mouth.
Sure, OK. I said that, and I stand by it.
What if old man Bobby Cox kicked Brett Myers in the groin in the backseat of an Infiniti?
You state in that paragraph that major league baseball is prestigious and being a janitor isn't. I'd say playing for the Indians doesn't really qualify as a high prestige job so I guess you're just mad about the paycheck.
It's really neither. It's up to team management to decide who earns a living playing ball. Someone signed Myers.
I don't like what he did to his wife, either.
Facepalm.
I question whether it's a good idea to convert Myers back to a starter. In 2011, Myers' velocity as a starter dropped to the 86-88 range, and his performance was considerably worse than 2010. After Myers was converted to closer by the Astros, his fastball velocity returned to the 90 - 94 range. Besides the trade value reason, I think that the velocity issue entered into Luhnow's decision to move Myers to the bullpen where he could throw harder. Myers has a very good curve ball---probably one of the best in the majors. He brings some pitching ability to the table.
Hmmm.... carry the one...
The answer I come up with is 'Tawny Kitaen'.
Infinitely more prestigious than playing for the Astros.
As for the baseball side: I think it's too much for a swingman. I'd honestly rather Correia, IF (BIG IF) I were forced at gunpoint to choose.
Man, Repoz himself never came up with anything better.
For real? Driving drunk can actually kill people. Beating a woman can hurt her, but you'd have to be out of your ####### mind to beat someone to death in public. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. Would you feel this way if were a similar mismatch man on man (say Aaron Harang vs. Daniel Ray Herrera)?
Edit: like everything else in life it's in gradations. If you're ripped out of your mind and driving at 12 at night that's insanely reckless. If you're driving home at 6 in the morning and you've stopped drinking 4 hours ago that's fine by me.
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