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Sunday, February 10, 2013

Indians to Sign Daisuke Matsuzaka

Double-swish mechanics?

The Indians have reached agreement with Daisuke Matsuzaka on a minor league deal, according to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (on Twitter).  Matsuzaka, who is represented by Scott Boras, can earn up to $4MM on the deal (Twitter link)...

Matsuzaka has made just 18 big league starts over the last two seasons thanks to Tommy John surgery.  For his six years in Boston, the Japanese import owns a 4.52 ERA with 8.2 K/9 and 4.3 BB/9.

The District Attorney Posted: February 10, 2013 at 02:07 PM | 84 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: daisuke matsuzaka, indians, transactions

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   1. Tripon Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4366579)
He didn't go back to Japan? He would probably earn more money in the NPB.
   2. andrewberg Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4366582)
I can imagine him being motivated to try to have one (more) good MLB season to mitigate the "bust" label.
   3. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4366597)
I can imagine him being motivated to try to have one (more) good MLB season to mitigate the "bust" label


I don't know; he proved he could pitch here. Then he got hurt.

He didn't end up being remotely worth his contract -- 668 IP of league average pitching over 6 years -- so I suppose that would qualify as a "bust" but he clearly had skills. Had he been able to (1) stay healthy and (2) cut off 1 walk per 9 he'd have been really good. Yeah, you can say that about scores of pitchers. Still.

Even just staying healthy would have made the contract okay. I recall that there was worry about how many pitches he had thrown in Japan, but while Japan does things a bit differently with respect to that it's not like US pitchers (and pitchers from other countries) have a known amount of wear on their arms.

His H/9 were all over the map in Boston, I presume because of the injuries. But humorously he went from leading the league one year (6.9) to a wild 12.3 hits allowed in the following partial year (60 innings).
   4. Bruce Markusen Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4366607)
He's been a huge bust. He was expected to be a star, a legitimate No. 1 for the longterm. He had one great season, one good one (as a rookie) and other than that, he was back-of-the-rotation material.
   5. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4366612)
He had one great season, one good one (as a rookie) and other than that, he was back-of-the-rotation material then he blew out his arm.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4366614)
He had one great season, one good one (as a rookie)

He had zero great seasons (167 IP with a K/BB well below 2, and a fluke good ERA isn't great).
   7. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4366617)
Yeah, two good seasons, no great ones. I just didn't want to use strikethrough twice.
   8. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4366628)
How do you strike through, anyway. There used to be a "delete" code or something up there.

And why does the underline code exist but not work.
   9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4366635)
< del >
   10. Austin Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4366643)
Huh. I had never noticed this before about Matsuzaka, but ERA screws him over for a very simple reason: 97% of his career runs allowed have been earned. That's mind-boggling. For comparison, we statheads keep having to emphasize in HOF discussions that Curt Schilling allowed a historically unprecedented ratio of earned to unearned runs, and yet his career rate was only 95%. I was wondering how Matsuzaka's 4.40 ERA in 2007 constituted a good season until I noticed that not only was Fenway a bandbox that year (his ERA-minus was 95), but he didn't allow a single unearned run all season.
   11. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4366654)

Is there anything left here, or is Dice-K done?
   12. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4366660)
[strike]Gyroball[/strike] 

Gyroball
   13. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4366661)
Is there anything left here, or is Dice-K done?
He had Tommy John surgery during the last offseason. In theory, he could be back to normal now. However, Matsuzaka has suffered from a variety of "shoulder soreness" style problems since 2008, and the elbow surgery wouldn't have fixed his shoulder. Possibly taking a year off from throwing could help the shoulder.

He didn't show anything good in his cameo in Boston in 2012. Then again, neither did anyone else.

Short answer: he's probably done, but you never know with pitchers.
   14. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4366662)
At times I've tried at least six different things to try to make strikethrough work. "strikethrough", "strike", and "k", in either square brackets or pointy brackets. Have never heard of "del" before!
   15. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:30 PM (#4366665)
He didn't show anything good in his cameo in Boston in 2012. Then again, neither did anyone else.

He'll fit right in with the Indians rotation!
   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:35 PM (#4366670)
Giddyup

Ok, that works.
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4366671)
Now what is up with the underline feature?
   18. bobm Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:37 PM (#4366674)
 deal, according to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (on Twitter).  Matsuzaka, who is represented by Scott Boras,


Now that is a helpful intro!
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4366676)
i wish him well in terms that nobody should retire until the entire profession rejects them but as a fan my gosh he was painful to watch

no writing anything new here. just that i won't be sad if he no longer comes across my television as a pitcher in action

   20. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4366685)
He had zero great seasons (167 IP with a K/BB well below 2, and a fluke good ERA isn't great).


I'm not convinced that the ERA was totally a fluke. He had the .260 BABIP, which looks flukish, but he was a guy with very good stuff and an aversion to throwing pitches in the strike zone. If there was someone who could maintain a low BABIP, you'd think it would be a guy like that. It's worth noting that his ISO-against dropped 46 points from his rookie year to year two, and his HR/9 almost halved. He wasn't just lucky on balls in play; batters weren't getting good contact on him.

But I'd agree that with the low IP (due to the walks and the endless 3-2 counts) you can't call it a great season. And it was nightmarishly dull to watch.
   21. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4366686)
Matsuzaka signing thread.

And predictions
   22. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4366687)
Speaking of predictions, Matsuzaka to Cleveland on an incentive-laden minor league deal in mid-Feb had to be this year's easiest signing to call.
   23. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4366690)
who was tougher to watch? matsuzaka or trachsel?
   24. Austin Posted: February 10, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4366696)
To follow up on my previous post, it appears that for all pitchers with at least 400 IP (since 1900, but that's a pretty irrelevant qualification given that the assigning of errors has decreased so dramatically over the years), Matsuzaka's ratio of earned to total runs is eighth-highest of all time. The leaderboard is pretty interesting, too. It's something of a proxy for "recent pitchers who were better than you might have remembered." I've included everyone above 96%.

Player             ERA   RA9   ER/RA  IP      Years      Role
Gabe White         4.51  4.62  0.976  570.7   1994
-2005  Mostly reliever
Grant Balfour      3.38  3.47  0.975  410.3   2001
-      Reliever
Brandon Backe      5.23  5.36  0.974  525.3   2002
-2009  Mostly starter
Carlos Villanueva  4.26  4.38  0.972  657.3   2006
-      Mostly reliever
Keith Foulke       3.33  3.43  0.970  786.7   1997
-2008  Reliever
Scott Baker        4.15  4.28  0.969  958.0   2005
-      Starter
Mike Oquist        5.46  5.64  0.968  555.0   1993
-1999  Mostly starter
Daisuke Matsuzaka  4.52  4.67  0.968  668.3   2007
-      Starter
John Patterson     4.32  4.48  0.965  454.3   2002
-2007  Starter
Frank Wills        5.06  5.25  0.965  435.7   1983
-1991  Mostly reliever
Luis Vizcaino      4.33  4.50  0.963  546.7   1999
-2009  Reliever
Kevin Slowey       4.66  4.85  0.962  532.7   2007
-      Starter
Joel Peralta       3.94  4.10  0.962  457.0   2005
-      Reliever
Arthur Rhodes      4.08  4.25  0.961  1187.7  1991
-2011  Reliever 


Also above 95%: Bryan Hickerson, Jeff Francis, Al Reyes, Todd van Poppel, Rafael Soriano, Jon Lester, Hideki Irabu, Don Wengert, Masato Yoshii, Ken Burkhart, Bob Patterson, Tom Niedenfuer, Jason Frasor, Roger Pavlik, Jason Grilli, J.J. Putz, Alan Mills, Curt Schilling, Justin Speier, Joe Borowski, Blake Stein
   25. Dr. Vaux Posted: February 10, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4366700)
I guess I had the best prediction, though it wasn't a serious one.
   26. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 10, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4366706)
The Indians have reached agreement with Daisuke Matsuzaka

And every fifth day for Indians fans time stops.
   27. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: February 10, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4366714)
I hope Matsuzaka has a good year in him. I always enjoyed watching him pitch in his first couple of years. There was a style to him that was a lot of fun and while it wasn't a dominant outing the guy won Game Seven of the 2007 ALCS, that's always going to stick with me,

I'm shocked its with Cleveland though. I never got the sense that he and Francona had the best relationship and that it was a two way street. I wouldn't have expected them to reunite.
   28. morineko Posted: February 10, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4366723)
It's a minor league contract. Matsuzaka didn't put up bad numbers in Pawtucket last year. He had the 2nd-lowest WHIP of any of the PawSox's starters. Even his walk numbers were down. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the quality of any given IL lineup, but it is something valuable to stow in Columbus in case of emergency. Brandon Duckworth--now playing in Japan--has had a long career putting up that kind of line in AAA.
   29. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 10, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4366732)
I always enjoyed watching him pitch in his first couple of years.

Jose, you seem like a decent guy, but Phil Coorey and I must respectfully disagree. The dude just nibbled, nibbled and nibbled some more. I found the 5 1/3, 110 pitch 6K, 4BB outings to be painful to watch. With his stuff early on you'd thought he'd just challenge hitters not nibble around them. Did I suggest he nibbled a bit...
   30. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: February 10, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4366741)
Agree - I hated him in 2008 IIRC - what a fluke of a season that was
   31. Carry The Zero Posted: February 10, 2013 at 08:20 PM (#4366766)
My favorite Matsuzaka moment will always be Game 3 of the WS back in '07, he knocked in two runs on a first pitch swing during the top of 3rd inning. (I believe).
   32. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: February 10, 2013 at 08:25 PM (#4366768)
who was tougher to watch? matsuzaka or trachsel?


Has to be Trachsel because when Matsuzaka was on his pitches were fun to watch.
   33. Depressoteric Posted: February 10, 2013 at 08:57 PM (#4366773)
Has to be Trachsel because when Matsuzaka was on his pitches were fun to watch.
No, this is not correct. Trachsel was annoying, but nothing compares to the godawful delays between Matsuzaka's pitches.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4366779)
i lean toward eso's position.
   35. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4366780)
Matsuzaka is bar none my least favorite player to watch play.
   36. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4366782)
who was tougher to watch? matsuzaka or trachsel?

I'd say it comes down to Matsuzaka or Mike Hargrove.
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:21 PM (#4366789)
My favorite Matsuzaka outings:

1) His third or fourth start in MLB, against Toronto. His slider was completely unhittable, and he struck out ten in seven innings. It looked like he was about to find himself as an MLB ace.
2) Game one of the 2008 ALCS. By the end of 2008, I had grown inured to his insane walk everyone until the bases are loaded, then get a pop up and a k and a grounder to get out of the jam style. He seemed to be on the way to doing that again when he walked the bases full in the 1st, but he just dominated the Rays after that, commanding his fastball like the pitcher we wished he could be and killing the Rays with breaking pitches when they expected the fastball. It was his second-to-last start before his arm gave out in 2009 (he had a bad start in Game 5), and it was the best I'd seen him throw since early 2007.
   38. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:23 PM (#4366792)
not to diverge in another direction but i love 'teams' and now i am wondering what is the team of least favorite players to watch play?

i don't think bbtf has done that 'team' yet.

1b: adam laroche/dick stuart
2b: ron hunt
ss: rafael ramirez
3b: wes helms
c: brian harper
lf: greg luzinski
cf: alex sanchez
rf: dante bichette
   39. yo la tengo Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:28 PM (#4366793)
On the hard to watch scale, I think it'd be hard to beat Victor Zambrano
   40. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:30 PM (#4366796)
39

i left off pitchers because i could list 20 easy

it's a list biased against them in some ways
   41. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:30 PM (#4366797)
My implicit point above is that while Matsuzaka was usually somewhere between maddening and unwatchable, he was capable of real greatness and wonderful entertainment.
   42. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:38 PM (#4366804)
Matsusaka could be fun to watch, simply because he had more overall skill than Trachsel. He could really pitch.

On the other hand, whereas Trachsel was slow between pitches, I don't think he had quite the combination of working very slowly and nibbling to the point of madness, which made Matsusaka at his worst the most godawful pitcher I've had the misfortune of seeing play.

   43. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4366807)
not to diverge in another direction but i love 'teams' and now i am wondering what is the team of least favorite players to watch play?

1B: (Tie) Mike Hargrove and Jack Clark
2B: (Tie) Petunia and Alfonso Soriano
SS: No-Mas
3B: A-Rod (when he's in a funk)
OF: Vince Coleman
OF: Dave Kingman
OF: Pete Incaviglia
C: (Tie) Thurmon Munson and Jason Varitek
SP: Joaquin Andujar
RP: Armando Benitez
MGR: (Tie) Tommy LaSorda and Whitey Herzog
Fans: The tomahawk zombies
   44. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4366810)
andy

hating guys on your own team? guess that makes sense since familiarity can generate some real angst

hence my pick of wes helms who was an abomination in a brewer uniform and a disgrace to his profession
   45. ptodd Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:50 PM (#4366812)
Good move for the Indians. Red Sox rushed him back last year so if he did not reinjure the elbow he should be able to bounce back and be a serviceable pitcher.

Surprised the Padres or some other WC NL team with a big park did not tale a chance on him. Little risk here on a minor league deal.
   46. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 10, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4366816)
andy

hating guys on your own team?


Not really hating, just extreme annoyance at times (A-Rod) or a general dislike of players who carry chips on their shoulders (Munson). I reserve my real hating for the 1985 Cardinals, from their whining manager on down to about half their starting lineup and rotation. Creepiest team in my entire lifetime, bar none.
   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2013 at 10:02 PM (#4366821)
or a general dislike of players who carry chips on their shoulders (Munson).


Wait, what?!?! You disliked Munson, Andy?? I don't think I've ever heard a Yankee fan say that.
   48. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 10, 2013 at 10:14 PM (#4366824)
The worst hitters to watch are the ones who

A) Don't hit homers
B) Don't run fast
C) Walk all the time
D) Strike out looking all the time

Pat Burrell hit 27 homers a year, but he also hit only 27 doubles a year. It was pretty hard to watch him hit if he hadn't hit a homer in the previous 5 games to remind you that he was still a power hitter.
   49. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4366825)
andy

you don't remember the early 70's indians? ugliest starting pitchers with one guy known as a greaser and the other who gained fame for his nickname of 'dirt'. you had all kinds of creepy looking guys like frank duffy as starters to bench players like john lowenstein.

then they had guys like chris chambliss who weren't creepy as much as eerie since chambliss never seemed to make a facial expression.

early 70's indians were a spooky team
   50. The District Attorney Posted: February 10, 2013 at 10:41 PM (#4366830)
The worst hitters to watch are the ones who

A) Don't hit homers
B) Don't run fast
C) Walk all the time
D) Strike out looking all the time
As you point out, a homerun hitter in a slump could perhaps be described as matching all four of these criteria, but on a seasonal basis, is there actually anyone like this? :)

I certainly understand people finding Three True Outcomes hitters to be boring, but I don't feel that way. It's not so much that walks themselves are exciting, although there is something to be said for an offensive rally that builds slowly. It's the idea that the pitcher does have to throw this guy a strike to get him out, but if it's too much of a strike, it's gonna get launched into orbit.

I'd have to think hard about my all-time least favorite to watch team, but it'd probably consist of either guys who were just no good (e.g. Yuniesky Betancourt, Kim Batiste, 2009-10 Oliver Perez) or who had zero on- or off-field personality (e.g. Mark Teixeira).
   51. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 10, 2013 at 11:02 PM (#4366834)
I'm going to think this over, but Jim Presley's playing third.
   52. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 10, 2013 at 11:04 PM (#4366835)
der k

a worthy choice.
   53. Depressoteric Posted: February 10, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4366839)
hence my pick of wes helms who was an abomination in a brewer uniform and a disgrace to his profession
In that case, surprised you didn't go with Johnny Estrada in your catcher spot. Though maybe his noxiousness was more of the "off the field" variety.

As someone unfamiliar with Brian Harper, what was so aggravating about him?

I could easily come up with an all-Nationals version of your list, Harveys.
   54. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: February 10, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4366846)
The leaderboard is pretty interesting, too. It's something of a proxy for "recent pitchers who were better than you might have remembered."

The Cubs have signed pitchers #4 and 6 on the list this offseason.
   55. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 10, 2013 at 11:40 PM (#4366848)
Wait, what?!?! You disliked Munson, Andy?? I don't think I've ever heard a Yankee fan say that.

I didn't like Munson for the same reason I never like Bill Cowher when all I knew about him was watching him on the sidelines arguing with the refs on every ####### play, with his ugly jaw sticking out about a foot over the sideline marker. A little bit too Travis Bickle-like for my taste, though if like Cowher he'd lived and become a commentator, I might have changed my mind about him, too. It wasn't Munson's redass style of playing, which I liked, it was that permanent chip-on-his-shoulder look.

------------------------------------------------------------

andy

you don't remember the early 70's indians? ugliest starting pitchers with one guy known as a greaser and the other who gained fame for his nickname of 'dirt'. you had all kinds of creepy looking guys like frank duffy as starters to bench players like john lowenstein.

then they had guys like chris chambliss who weren't creepy as much as eerie since chambliss never seemed to make a facial expression.

early 70's indians were a spooky team


Could be, but they were also so bad that they've totally slipped my memory. And anyway, no team with Whitey Herzog, Juaquin Andujar, Vince Coleman, Jack Clark and John TOO-dah (the worst of the bunch) can ever be matched for overall creepiness.
   56. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 11, 2013 at 01:34 AM (#4366876)
Matsusaka could be fun to watch, simply because he had more overall skill than Trachsel. He could really pitch.

But that's what was so frustrating. At times his stuff was just unhittable, yet he still refused to challenge hitters. He'd just nibble at the corners. Now I understand doing this without your best stuff, but when you are throwing well you just need to come after hitters and try to gobble up 7-8 innings easy. The guy was a pen's worst nightmare, always needing at least 10 more outs to win the game.
   57. Greg K Posted: February 11, 2013 at 05:22 AM (#4366892)
My least favourite quality in a hitter is a guy who swings at the low and away breaking-ball. To be fair, everyone swings at that pitch at some point, but the guys who always do it drive me nuts. Unless it's Alfonso Soriano v. Pedro Martiez in the 2003 ALCS. Then it's fun.

I actually have predominately positive feelings about Vernon Wells, but he tended towards this (and even had a little dance in the batters box when he knew he swung at a bad pitch), and another annoying trait - infield pop ups.
   58. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: February 11, 2013 at 05:34 AM (#4366893)
test
   59. just plain joe Posted: February 11, 2013 at 09:29 AM (#4366928)
My least favourite quality in a hitter is a guy who swings at the low and away breaking-ball.


That describes nearly every at bat in Shawn Dunston's career, I'm not sure why any pitcher ever threw him a strike. To be fair, I remember Dunston as a player who hustled all the time, so he gets points for that in my book. Also, one night in Cincinnati after a Cubs-Reds game, we ran into Dunston in the lobby of the hotel; he spent at least 15 minutes talking to us and answering questions. No, I didn't ask him why he swang at sliders in the dirt.
   60. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 09:41 AM (#4366934)
not to diverge in another direction but i love 'teams' and now i am wondering what is the team of least favorite players to watch play?


So is this 'most hated' or 'least favorite to watch play'?

My team would have some crossover -- Garvey plays 1B on both, but in other instances I would probably have different players... Neifi is probably SS on my most hated, but he was a perfectly smooth SS so I'd probably go with something more like say, Jeff Blauser at SS on least favorite to watch play.
   61. depletion Posted: February 11, 2013 at 09:51 AM (#4366937)
I disagree with Harvey's choice of Ron Hunt. Before Hunt went to the Expose (or was it Dodgers) and became Ron "The Human Target" Hunt, he was a reasonably exciting 2B who hit well and stole some bases. Heck he was the only All-star for our Mets one year.
I can think of several outfielders who, while exciting at the plate, were root canals in the field: Raul Ibanez LF, Mickey Rivers CF, Gary Sheffield RF.
   62. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 11, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4366947)
zonk

not hated. just didn't enjoy watching the guy play

depletion:

he was pretty much the old version of jason kendall by age 28. and i don't know where the stolen bases thing comes from because hunt was a terrible baserunner. his career high in stolen bases was 10 and he barely broke even in his career success rate.

he poked at the baseball while at the plate, wasn't any good on the double play and was just excruciating to watch especially once he joined the giants.

blech
   63. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4366950)
depletion

by the way, not looking for a fight here. it's just opinion.

   64. depletion Posted: February 11, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4366955)
Well, I was like 9 and 10 at the time. And it was 45 years ago. What was the question?
   65. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 11, 2013 at 10:48 AM (#4366957)
I'm taking it as the latter, zonk - which makes this a bit tougher to answer ... particular if I try to remove fandom from the equation. Do I want to pick Rafael Ramirez because I grew up hating that he was on my team? At least with Presley I felt that way before he was a Brave. (Oh, and I totally get your Helms pick, HW.)

I don't mind weird mannerisms or super patient hitters. Nibblers are boring in person, but am okay with that on TV. I seem to have issues with nepotism, but those guys tend not to make the bigs + that's kind of a different question.

Delmon Young is frustrating to watch.
   66. JJ1986 Posted: February 11, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4366960)
My least favorite Met to watch was Todd Zeile the second time, when he came back and the team gave him all sort of preferential treatment like he'd been a team hero and guy who'd played with them for a few decades instead of two middling seasons.
   67. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4366965)
OK, least favorite to watch play...

C Scott Servais
1B Steve Garvey
2B Ken Oberkfell
SS Jeff Blauser
3B Steve Buechele
LF Luis Gonzalez
CF Brian L Hunter
RF Jeromy Burnitz
SP Steve Tracshel


Servais had a stellar half season of slugging about .600 -- then was just a dreadful disappointment for another 5... Garvey always makes and captains any 'least/most hated/etc' team. Oberkfell was perhaps the most boring player in the history of baseball players, I suppose he walked a bit, but he had no power, no speed, and well, just boring to tears. Jeff Blauser killed the Cubs as a Brave, then sucked when he became a Cub - he's probably my least favorite player ever to watch play. Steve Buechele always seemed awkward playing. Luis Gonzalez was another extraordinarily boring player - until he, uhhh... got really good for a brief period in AZ and then just became infuriating in a reverse-Blauser sort of way. Brian Hunter was an annoying base stealer who didn't do much else. Jeromy Burnitz was mildly annoying when he wasn't a Cub; a complete moron as a Cub. I don't generally mind pitchers who work slowly - but Tracshel took it to a whole different level and I just hated watching him pitch.
   68. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4366975)
zonk

great team. oberkfell was a really drab player. boo, hiss.

   69. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4366976)
FWIW, I could fill an entire staff -- with ease -- with Cubs pitchers that I hated to watch pitch...

SP Tracshel
SP Jose Guzman
SP Dick Ruthven
SP Ismael Valdez
SP Ruben Quevedo
RP Goose Gossage
RP LaTroy Hawkins
RP Rick Aguilera
RP Felix Heredia
RP Jay Baller
RP Matt Karchner
CL Lee Smith

Guzman walked too many people, Ruthven was serving up BP by the time he became a Cub, Valdez was a tin man who nibbled like crazy, Quevedo existed to give up HRs and walk people. Gossage was awful as a Cub - Ditto Hawkins and Aguilera... The Run Fairy probably makes the lest favorite team of every fan who got to see him wearing the home uni... Jay Baller was at one time, a Cub 'closer of the future' who was dreadful, Karchner reminded me of Garland every time he pitched -- and then he was awful when he pitched. Despite the numbers, I never liked watching Smith pitch as disaster always seemed a moment away.
   70. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4366977)
I never liked Todd Hundley for some reason.


FWIW, I could fill an entire staff -- with ease -- with Cubs pitchers that I hated to watch pitch...


Frank Castillo ... Shawn Estes ...

   71. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:29 AM (#4366982)
zonk

great team. oberkfell was a really drab player. boo, hiss.


In roto circles, Oberkfell had the nickname "5-0-1-0" for his typically boring batting line... which usually consisted of a meaningless single and nothing else.
   72. Answer Guy Posted: February 11, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4366990)
On the other hand, whereas Trachsel was slow between pitches, I don't think he had quite the combination of working very slowly and nibbling to the point of madness, which made Matsusaka at his worst the most godawful pitcher I've had the misfortune of seeing play.


This. He would often pitch every guy in the other team's lineup as if they were the second coming of Babe Ruth. Throw in the slow pace and it was like someone slowly dragging a fork across a chalkboard.
   73. bunyon Posted: February 11, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4367028)
1b: adam laroche/dick stuart
2b: ron hunt
ss: rafael ramirez
3b: wes helms
c: brian harper
lf: greg luzinski
cf: alex sanchez
rf: dante bichette


Someone didn't like the SuperStation.
   74. Darren Posted: February 11, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4367033)
I always rooted for the great Dice-K to reemerge at some point but he never did. The games against that MCOA were certainly memorable for me, as were his 10-K debut against KC and his 5 IP in game 7 of the 2007 ALCS. His quote before the game was classic--something like "I am not sure how you say it, here in America, but it is on."
   75. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4367036)
To a large extent, 'least favorite to watch play' depends on your mode of watching, too...

I mean -- do you cringe watching Bichette/Luzinski/Skates Smtih/etc -- or, do you chuckle at the comedy?

I suppose it depends on context... if you have a rooting interest, you're cringing... if you're watching a pennant race/late season/playoff game and just want to watch good baseball, I suppose you're cringing, too...

But - a late May weekend game? It can be entertaining comic relief to watch the Bull huffing and puffing, rolling around in an OF corner.
   76. Ryan Lind Posted: February 11, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4367084)
The worst hitters to watch are the ones who

A) Don't hit homers
B) Don't run fast
C) Walk all the time
D) Strike out looking all the time


So, therefore, a reasonable formula for BoreFactor might be something as simple as: K+BB-(HR*11)-(SB*14)+CS. This would allow 25 HR or 20 steals to wash away the boring-ness of 175 K and 100 walks

Career Leaders:

Dal Maxville 755
Dave Magadan 659
Max Bishop 602
Wade Boggs 558
Dick Shcofield 546

Opposite:

Rickey Henderson -1873
Lou Brock -1197
Barry Bonds -1134
Tim Raines -1074
Joe Morgan -955

Maybe we should weight strikeout more heavy than walk?
   77. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4367139)


So, therefore, a reasonable formula for BoreFactor might be something as simple as: K+BB-(HR*11)-(SB*14)+CS. This would allow 25 HR or 20 steals to wash away the boring-ness of 175 K and 100 walks

Career Leaders:

Dal Maxville 755
Dave Magadan 659
Max Bishop 602
Wade Boggs 558
Dick Shcofield 546

Opposite:

Rickey Henderson -1873
Lou Brock -1197
Barry Bonds -1134
Tim Raines -1074
Joe Morgan -955

Maybe we should weight strikeout more heavy than walk?


That's really good!

Boggs is an obviously outlier -- I suppose he could be very 'boring' to watch hit to some extent; though, I'd give him a pass because some guys in this category are just pure 'technicians' and it's fun to watch them work an AB in the same way it's fun to watch Maddux work a hitter.

This formula looks very close to me -- Schofield and Magadan would definitely be in the "geez, not this guy" category... while the inverse list is absolutely a great list of the opposite.

I think the K weighting is the way to go -- we need to find a way to get Boggs off that list...
   78. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 11, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4367147)
I loved watching Magadan hit. If you like Boggs, you should like Magadan.
   79. zonk Posted: February 11, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4367152)
I loved watching Magadan hit. If you like Boggs, you should like Magadan.


Isn't that a bit like saying "If like the Beatles - you should enjoy the Monkees or if you like Dylan, you'll love this Donovan guy!"
   80. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 11, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4367153)
You're thinking along the right lines there, Shock. Dave Magadan is exactly the definition of the low-risk low-reward hitter. However he walked much more than he struck out! You would not get a sense of futility watching him take pitch after pitch.

Another one who came to mind was Mark McLemore. But he had speed on his side. But on the other hand, he also got caught stealing a lot.
   81. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: February 11, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4367265)
Ron Hunt. Before Hunt went to the Expose (or was it Dodgers) and became Ron "The Human Target" Hunt


We used to play the 1971 Sports Illustrated dice game. The most common number to roll was "34". Hunt was the only player ever to have this for his "hit by pitch" outcome.
   82. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 11, 2013 at 05:37 PM (#4367273)
What's wrong with the Monkees?
   83. OCF Posted: February 11, 2013 at 09:04 PM (#4367419)
Dal Maxvill 755

Story I heard about Maxvill: He hit an over-the-fence home run in St. Louis. (That should be traceable - maybe only happened once in his career?) As he got back to the dugout, some teammate - Shannon or Maris or someone - went into Harry Caray's home run shtick: "Way back! It might be! It could be! It couldn't be! It couldn't be!"
   84. Ryan Lind Posted: February 11, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4367424)
I've tweaked it a bit. It's challenging to come up with a list of tough-to-watch hitters without it just being a list of really bad hitters.

Here is my amendment: K*3 + BB + CS - HR*18 - SB*18

Top 5 by BoreFactor:

1. Dal Maxville 1761 (nothing I do gets this guy off the top.)
2. Jim Sundberg 1555
3. Bobby Knoop 1525
4. Paul Bako 1505
5. Dave Magadan 1413
6. Dick Schofield 1403
7. Ed Brinkman 1394
8. Mike Matheny 1315
9. Jerry Grote 1250
10. Pete Runnels 1128

Worst seasons to watch

1. Adam Dunn 2011 (duh)
2. Bobby Knoop 1968
3. Roy Smalley 1976
4. Jose Hernandez 2003
5. Ray Oyler 1967

I toyed around with dividing by batting average, which worked really well for driving down the Boggs/Gwynn types without making a significant difference to most, but the problem is that this formula will go into the negatives, where dividing will have the reverse effect. so I'd have to add like 100,000 or something stupid to keep the numbers positive. Not that this isn't already stupid and pointless! I love doing this stuff though. I added it to my stat finder site as well and might play with some other formulations. :)

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