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1. Tripon Posted: February 10, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4366579)I don't know; he proved he could pitch here. Then he got hurt.
He didn't end up being remotely worth his contract -- 668 IP of league average pitching over 6 years -- so I suppose that would qualify as a "bust" but he clearly had skills. Had he been able to (1) stay healthy and (2) cut off 1 walk per 9 he'd have been really good. Yeah, you can say that about scores of pitchers. Still.
Even just staying healthy would have made the contract okay. I recall that there was worry about how many pitches he had thrown in Japan, but while Japan does things a bit differently with respect to that it's not like US pitchers (and pitchers from other countries) have a known amount of wear on their arms.
His H/9 were all over the map in Boston, I presume because of the injuries. But humorously he went from leading the league one year (6.9) to a wild 12.3 hits allowed in the following partial year (60 innings).
other than that, he was back-of-the-rotation materialthen he blew out his arm.He had zero great seasons (167 IP with a K/BB well below 2, and a fluke good ERA isn't great).
And why does the underline code exist but not work.
Is there anything left here, or is Dice-K done?
[strike]Gyroball[/strike]GyroballHe didn't show anything good in his cameo in Boston in 2012. Then again, neither did anyone else.
Short answer: he's probably done, but you never know with pitchers.
He'll fit right in with the Indians rotation!
GiddyupOk, that works.
Now that is a helpful intro!
no writing anything new here. just that i won't be sad if he no longer comes across my television as a pitcher in action
I'm not convinced that the ERA was totally a fluke. He had the .260 BABIP, which looks flukish, but he was a guy with very good stuff and an aversion to throwing pitches in the strike zone. If there was someone who could maintain a low BABIP, you'd think it would be a guy like that. It's worth noting that his ISO-against dropped 46 points from his rookie year to year two, and his HR/9 almost halved. He wasn't just lucky on balls in play; batters weren't getting good contact on him.
But I'd agree that with the low IP (due to the walks and the endless 3-2 counts) you can't call it a great season. And it was nightmarishly dull to watch.
And predictions
Player ERA RA9 ER/RA IP Years RoleGabe White 4.51 4.62 0.976 570.7 1994-2005 Mostly reliever
Grant Balfour 3.38 3.47 0.975 410.3 2001- Reliever
Brandon Backe 5.23 5.36 0.974 525.3 2002-2009 Mostly starter
Carlos Villanueva 4.26 4.38 0.972 657.3 2006- Mostly reliever
Keith Foulke 3.33 3.43 0.970 786.7 1997-2008 Reliever
Scott Baker 4.15 4.28 0.969 958.0 2005- Starter
Mike Oquist 5.46 5.64 0.968 555.0 1993-1999 Mostly starter
Daisuke Matsuzaka 4.52 4.67 0.968 668.3 2007- Starter
John Patterson 4.32 4.48 0.965 454.3 2002-2007 Starter
Frank Wills 5.06 5.25 0.965 435.7 1983-1991 Mostly reliever
Luis Vizcaino 4.33 4.50 0.963 546.7 1999-2009 Reliever
Kevin Slowey 4.66 4.85 0.962 532.7 2007- Starter
Joel Peralta 3.94 4.10 0.962 457.0 2005- Reliever
Arthur Rhodes 4.08 4.25 0.961 1187.7 1991-2011 Reliever
Also above 95%: Bryan Hickerson, Jeff Francis, Al Reyes, Todd van Poppel, Rafael Soriano, Jon Lester, Hideki Irabu, Don Wengert, Masato Yoshii, Ken Burkhart, Bob Patterson, Tom Niedenfuer, Jason Frasor, Roger Pavlik, Jason Grilli, J.J. Putz, Alan Mills, Curt Schilling, Justin Speier, Joe Borowski, Blake Stein
And every fifth day for Indians fans time stops.
I'm shocked its with Cleveland though. I never got the sense that he and Francona had the best relationship and that it was a two way street. I wouldn't have expected them to reunite.
Jose, you seem like a decent guy, but Phil Coorey and I must respectfully disagree. The dude just nibbled, nibbled and nibbled some more. I found the 5 1/3, 110 pitch 6K, 4BB outings to be painful to watch. With his stuff early on you'd thought he'd just challenge hitters not nibble around them. Did I suggest he nibbled a bit...
Has to be Trachsel because when Matsuzaka was on his pitches were fun to watch.
I'd say it comes down to Matsuzaka or Mike Hargrove.
1) His third or fourth start in MLB, against Toronto. His slider was completely unhittable, and he struck out ten in seven innings. It looked like he was about to find himself as an MLB ace.
2) Game one of the 2008 ALCS. By the end of 2008, I had grown inured to his insane walk everyone until the bases are loaded, then get a pop up and a k and a grounder to get out of the jam style. He seemed to be on the way to doing that again when he walked the bases full in the 1st, but he just dominated the Rays after that, commanding his fastball like the pitcher we wished he could be and killing the Rays with breaking pitches when they expected the fastball. It was his second-to-last start before his arm gave out in 2009 (he had a bad start in Game 5), and it was the best I'd seen him throw since early 2007.
i don't think bbtf has done that 'team' yet.
1b: adam laroche/dick stuart
2b: ron hunt
ss: rafael ramirez
3b: wes helms
c: brian harper
lf: greg luzinski
cf: alex sanchez
rf: dante bichette
i left off pitchers because i could list 20 easy
it's a list biased against them in some ways
On the other hand, whereas Trachsel was slow between pitches, I don't think he had quite the combination of working very slowly and nibbling to the point of madness, which made Matsusaka at his worst the most godawful pitcher I've had the misfortune of seeing play.
1B: (Tie) Mike Hargrove and Jack Clark
2B: (Tie) Petunia and Alfonso Soriano
SS: No-Mas
3B: A-Rod (when he's in a funk)
OF: Vince Coleman
OF: Dave Kingman
OF: Pete Incaviglia
C: (Tie) Thurmon Munson and Jason Varitek
SP: Joaquin Andujar
RP: Armando Benitez
MGR: (Tie) Tommy LaSorda and Whitey Herzog
Fans: The tomahawk zombies
hating guys on your own team? guess that makes sense since familiarity can generate some real angst
hence my pick of wes helms who was an abomination in a brewer uniform and a disgrace to his profession
Surprised the Padres or some other WC NL team with a big park did not tale a chance on him. Little risk here on a minor league deal.
hating guys on your own team?
Not really hating, just extreme annoyance at times (A-Rod) or a general dislike of players who carry chips on their shoulders (Munson). I reserve my real hating for the 1985 Cardinals, from their whining manager on down to about half their starting lineup and rotation. Creepiest team in my entire lifetime, bar none.
Wait, what?!?! You disliked Munson, Andy?? I don't think I've ever heard a Yankee fan say that.
A) Don't hit homers
B) Don't run fast
C) Walk all the time
D) Strike out looking all the time
Pat Burrell hit 27 homers a year, but he also hit only 27 doubles a year. It was pretty hard to watch him hit if he hadn't hit a homer in the previous 5 games to remind you that he was still a power hitter.
you don't remember the early 70's indians? ugliest starting pitchers with one guy known as a greaser and the other who gained fame for his nickname of 'dirt'. you had all kinds of creepy looking guys like frank duffy as starters to bench players like john lowenstein.
then they had guys like chris chambliss who weren't creepy as much as eerie since chambliss never seemed to make a facial expression.
early 70's indians were a spooky team
I certainly understand people finding Three True Outcomes hitters to be boring, but I don't feel that way. It's not so much that walks themselves are exciting, although there is something to be said for an offensive rally that builds slowly. It's the idea that the pitcher does have to throw this guy a strike to get him out, but if it's too much of a strike, it's gonna get launched into orbit.
I'd have to think hard about my all-time least favorite to watch team, but it'd probably consist of either guys who were just no good (e.g. Yuniesky Betancourt, Kim Batiste, 2009-10 Oliver Perez) or who had zero on- or off-field personality (e.g. Mark Teixeira).
a worthy choice.
As someone unfamiliar with Brian Harper, what was so aggravating about him?
I could easily come up with an all-Nationals version of your list, Harveys.
The Cubs have signed pitchers #4 and 6 on the list this offseason.
I didn't like Munson for the same reason I never like Bill Cowher when all I knew about him was watching him on the sidelines arguing with the refs on every ####### play, with his ugly jaw sticking out about a foot over the sideline marker. A little bit too Travis Bickle-like for my taste, though if like Cowher he'd lived and become a commentator, I might have changed my mind about him, too. It wasn't Munson's redass style of playing, which I liked, it was that permanent chip-on-his-shoulder look.
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andy
you don't remember the early 70's indians? ugliest starting pitchers with one guy known as a greaser and the other who gained fame for his nickname of 'dirt'. you had all kinds of creepy looking guys like frank duffy as starters to bench players like john lowenstein.
then they had guys like chris chambliss who weren't creepy as much as eerie since chambliss never seemed to make a facial expression.
early 70's indians were a spooky team
Could be, but they were also so bad that they've totally slipped my memory. And anyway, no team with Whitey Herzog, Juaquin Andujar, Vince Coleman, Jack Clark and John TOO-dah (the worst of the bunch) can ever be matched for overall creepiness.
But that's what was so frustrating. At times his stuff was just unhittable, yet he still refused to challenge hitters. He'd just nibble at the corners. Now I understand doing this without your best stuff, but when you are throwing well you just need to come after hitters and try to gobble up 7-8 innings easy. The guy was a pen's worst nightmare, always needing at least 10 more outs to win the game.
I actually have predominately positive feelings about Vernon Wells, but he tended towards this (and even had a little dance in the batters box when he knew he swung at a bad pitch), and another annoying trait - infield pop ups.
testThat describes nearly every at bat in Shawn Dunston's career, I'm not sure why any pitcher ever threw him a strike. To be fair, I remember Dunston as a player who hustled all the time, so he gets points for that in my book. Also, one night in Cincinnati after a Cubs-Reds game, we ran into Dunston in the lobby of the hotel; he spent at least 15 minutes talking to us and answering questions. No, I didn't ask him why he swang at sliders in the dirt.
So is this 'most hated' or 'least favorite to watch play'?
My team would have some crossover -- Garvey plays 1B on both, but in other instances I would probably have different players... Neifi is probably SS on my most hated, but he was a perfectly smooth SS so I'd probably go with something more like say, Jeff Blauser at SS on least favorite to watch play.
I can think of several outfielders who, while exciting at the plate, were root canals in the field: Raul Ibanez LF, Mickey Rivers CF, Gary Sheffield RF.
not hated. just didn't enjoy watching the guy play
depletion:
he was pretty much the old version of jason kendall by age 28. and i don't know where the stolen bases thing comes from because hunt was a terrible baserunner. his career high in stolen bases was 10 and he barely broke even in his career success rate.
he poked at the baseball while at the plate, wasn't any good on the double play and was just excruciating to watch especially once he joined the giants.
blech
by the way, not looking for a fight here. it's just opinion.
I don't mind weird mannerisms or super patient hitters. Nibblers are boring in person, but am okay with that on TV. I seem to have issues with nepotism, but those guys tend not to make the bigs + that's kind of a different question.
Delmon Young is frustrating to watch.
C Scott Servais
1B Steve Garvey
2B Ken Oberkfell
SS Jeff Blauser
3B Steve Buechele
LF Luis Gonzalez
CF Brian L Hunter
RF Jeromy Burnitz
SP Steve Tracshel
Servais had a stellar half season of slugging about .600 -- then was just a dreadful disappointment for another 5... Garvey always makes and captains any 'least/most hated/etc' team. Oberkfell was perhaps the most boring player in the history of baseball players, I suppose he walked a bit, but he had no power, no speed, and well, just boring to tears. Jeff Blauser killed the Cubs as a Brave, then sucked when he became a Cub - he's probably my least favorite player ever to watch play. Steve Buechele always seemed awkward playing. Luis Gonzalez was another extraordinarily boring player - until he, uhhh... got really good for a brief period in AZ and then just became infuriating in a reverse-Blauser sort of way. Brian Hunter was an annoying base stealer who didn't do much else. Jeromy Burnitz was mildly annoying when he wasn't a Cub; a complete moron as a Cub. I don't generally mind pitchers who work slowly - but Tracshel took it to a whole different level and I just hated watching him pitch.
great team. oberkfell was a really drab player. boo, hiss.
SP Tracshel
SP Jose Guzman
SP Dick Ruthven
SP Ismael Valdez
SP Ruben Quevedo
RP Goose Gossage
RP LaTroy Hawkins
RP Rick Aguilera
RP Felix Heredia
RP Jay Baller
RP Matt Karchner
CL Lee Smith
Guzman walked too many people, Ruthven was serving up BP by the time he became a Cub, Valdez was a tin man who nibbled like crazy, Quevedo existed to give up HRs and walk people. Gossage was awful as a Cub - Ditto Hawkins and Aguilera... The Run Fairy probably makes the lest favorite team of every fan who got to see him wearing the home uni... Jay Baller was at one time, a Cub 'closer of the future' who was dreadful, Karchner reminded me of Garland every time he pitched -- and then he was awful when he pitched. Despite the numbers, I never liked watching Smith pitch as disaster always seemed a moment away.
Frank Castillo ... Shawn Estes ...
In roto circles, Oberkfell had the nickname "5-0-1-0" for his typically boring batting line... which usually consisted of a meaningless single and nothing else.
This. He would often pitch every guy in the other team's lineup as if they were the second coming of Babe Ruth. Throw in the slow pace and it was like someone slowly dragging a fork across a chalkboard.
2b: ron hunt
ss: rafael ramirez
3b: wes helms
c: brian harper
lf: greg luzinski
cf: alex sanchez
rf: dante bichette
Someone didn't like the SuperStation.
I mean -- do you cringe watching Bichette/Luzinski/Skates Smtih/etc -- or, do you chuckle at the comedy?
I suppose it depends on context... if you have a rooting interest, you're cringing... if you're watching a pennant race/late season/playoff game and just want to watch good baseball, I suppose you're cringing, too...
But - a late May weekend game? It can be entertaining comic relief to watch the Bull huffing and puffing, rolling around in an OF corner.
So, therefore, a reasonable formula for BoreFactor might be something as simple as: K+BB-(HR*11)-(SB*14)+CS. This would allow 25 HR or 20 steals to wash away the boring-ness of 175 K and 100 walks
Career Leaders:
Dal Maxville 755
Dave Magadan 659
Max Bishop 602
Wade Boggs 558
Dick Shcofield 546
Opposite:
Rickey Henderson -1873
Lou Brock -1197
Barry Bonds -1134
Tim Raines -1074
Joe Morgan -955
Maybe we should weight strikeout more heavy than walk?
That's really good!
Boggs is an obviously outlier -- I suppose he could be very 'boring' to watch hit to some extent; though, I'd give him a pass because some guys in this category are just pure 'technicians' and it's fun to watch them work an AB in the same way it's fun to watch Maddux work a hitter.
This formula looks very close to me -- Schofield and Magadan would definitely be in the "geez, not this guy" category... while the inverse list is absolutely a great list of the opposite.
I think the K weighting is the way to go -- we need to find a way to get Boggs off that list...
Isn't that a bit like saying "If like the Beatles - you should enjoy the Monkees or if you like Dylan, you'll love this Donovan guy!"
Another one who came to mind was Mark McLemore. But he had speed on his side. But on the other hand, he also got caught stealing a lot.
We used to play the 1971 Sports Illustrated dice game. The most common number to roll was "34". Hunt was the only player ever to have this for his "hit by pitch" outcome.
Story I heard about Maxvill: He hit an over-the-fence home run in St. Louis. (That should be traceable - maybe only happened once in his career?) As he got back to the dugout, some teammate - Shannon or Maris or someone - went into Harry Caray's home run shtick: "Way back! It might be! It could be! It couldn't be! It couldn't be!"
Here is my amendment: K*3 + BB + CS - HR*18 - SB*18
Top 5 by BoreFactor:
1. Dal Maxville 1761 (nothing I do gets this guy off the top.)
2. Jim Sundberg 1555
3. Bobby Knoop 1525
4. Paul Bako 1505
5. Dave Magadan 1413
6. Dick Schofield 1403
7. Ed Brinkman 1394
8. Mike Matheny 1315
9. Jerry Grote 1250
10. Pete Runnels 1128
Worst seasons to watch
1. Adam Dunn 2011 (duh)
2. Bobby Knoop 1968
3. Roy Smalley 1976
4. Jose Hernandez 2003
5. Ray Oyler 1967
I toyed around with dividing by batting average, which worked really well for driving down the Boggs/Gwynn types without making a significant difference to most, but the problem is that this formula will go into the negatives, where dividing will have the reverse effect. so I'd have to add like 100,000 or something stupid to keep the numbers positive. Not that this isn't already stupid and pointless! I love doing this stuff though. I added it to my stat finder site as well and might play with some other formulations. :)
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