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Friday, January 11, 2019

Inside Kyler Murray’s football-vs.-baseball decision

Dan O’Dowd had a great idea last night on MLB Tonight. With the changes in the CBA it’s a lot more difficult for baseball to compete with football because of the limits on bonuses. He suggested a change in the CBA whereby a team can match an NFL bonus, so baseball can better compete with the NFL.

Jim Furtado Posted: January 11, 2019 at 09:57 AM | 67 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, kyler murray

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 11, 2019 at 10:26 AM (#5804546)
Seems like the right move for Murray is to play football for 2-3 years, bank 20 or 30 million dollars, retire before the head injuries get really bad, and go play baseball.

I know this isn't a decision he'll make in a vacuum, and I know it will depend on stuff like which sport he enjoys more. He's not likely to do what I'm suggesting. But it seems like the best way to set himself up for life financially without destroying himself in the process.
   2. McCoy Posted: January 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5804553)
How many QB have suffered really bad and permanent brain injuries? They 80’s QB took a beating but they aren’t killing themselves off like the other positions. I know terry bradshaw suffered through depression and other mental issues and I wouldn’t be surprised that was caused by football. But it seems like since about the late 90’s through now the NFL has done a lot to protect QB.
   3. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 11, 2019 at 10:40 AM (#5804564)
Brett Favre has talked openly about his brain injuries and suspecting he has CTE. Jake Plummer says he has chronic medical issues. Boomer Esiason is pretty sure he has CTE.

I think the reason we haven't heard much about more recent QBs having it is that so many of them (Brady, Brees, Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger) are still active into their late 30s and beyond.
   4. JL72 Posted: January 11, 2019 at 10:45 AM (#5804568)
Jim McMahon talks of his as well. Nearly drove him to suicide.

   5. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: January 11, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5804623)
Bernie Kosar had treatment for brain trauma in 2013.
   6. Greg Pope Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5804654)
Also, remember the denominator. There are way fewer QB's per team than other positions.
   7. akrasian Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5804656)
Also, remember the denominator. There are way fewer QB's per team than other positions.

And backup QBs tend to get much less playing time. Other positions often will get rotation playing time, or play on special teams (which have a disproportionate number of hard collisions compared to starters per play). QBs play all game without replacement, unless they are injured or sucking, leaving their backups on the bench. And in practice they wear jerseys that indicate they should not be hit.
   8. McCoy Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5804657)
I think anybody who played in the 80’s through most of the 90’s is going to have serious issues. As you said we’ll have to wait and see about this eras qb and see if the changes have made a difference. It does seem like modern QB lose less time nowadays because of concussions.
   9. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:44 PM (#5804661)

Seems like the right move for Murray is to play football for 2-3 years, bank 20 or 30 million dollars, retire before the head injuries get really bad, and go play baseball.

I think it's harder to go back to baseball than football after an absence, for a batter at least, but what do I know?

Murray is also runs more than the average QB. If he plays, he's going to take some hits.

   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5804664)
And in practice they wear jerseys that indicate they should not be hit.
Wait. NFL players are really so dumb that they can't be trusted to know who their own QBs are in practice without special jerseys? As in, even if they don't recognize him with his helmet on, "he's the guy with the ball in his hand getting ready to throw" isn't enough of an indicator?
   11. McCoy Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5804668)
It ain’t exactly new. You’re flying around crashing into a lot of things. If you see a really different jersey don’t hit it. Seems pretty simple.
   12. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 11, 2019 at 12:59 PM (#5804673)

It's also not just the QB - players who have minor injuries, I think kickers and punters, etc. will also wear a red jersey.
   13. SandyRiver Posted: January 11, 2019 at 02:32 PM (#5804742)
Maybe this is an attempt to keep some options open. He'll probably find out in a year or two whether he has much of a future as an NFL QB, and if not would still be young enough to switch. (Must be said that some longtime backup QBs have made a lot of money while holding the clipboard for 95% of their on-roster games.)
Unless he's Mike Trout, he'll probably need 2-3 years in the minors and maybe some MLB time before his future becomes apparent, and the market for short 26-year-old QBs is not great, especially for ones having been out of the game for years.
   14. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 11, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5804767)
I think this is an attempt to see how high the NFL would be willing to draft him. He's a very unusual quarterback prospect.
   15. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 11, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5804771)
I think this is an attempt to see how high the NFL would be willing to draft him. He's a very unusual quarterback prospect.


Quite possible.

My wild-ass guess is that Murray has always intended to play football and the contract with the A's was always a pure leverage move, signaling to NFL teams that this is how much money I will require, so you'd best draft me in the early second round at the latest.

It also provides extra leverage by way of telling NFL teams not to even think about trying to force him to change positions.
   16. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 11, 2019 at 05:57 PM (#5804824)
My wild-ass guess is that Murray has always intended to play football and the contract with the A's was always a pure leverage move, signaling to NFL teams that this is how much money I will require, so you'd best draft me in the early second round at the latest.

I don't know, that seems pretty cynical to me. Was Murray on anyone's radar screen as a potential 1st or 2nd round pick before this college football season? The guy threw all of 21 passes last season; granted he was backing up Baker Mayfield so that doesn't mean he wasn't good. But I think it's possible that he didn't anticipate his level of success this year and skyrocketing draft prospects, and genuinely thought baseball was the better option when he signed with hte A's.

I looked at a few pre-season NFL draft rankings and none of them had Mayfield as a first rounder or ranked in the top 10 QBs available, though I'm not positive that they weren't excluding him because he had signed with the A's.
   17. TDF, trained monkey Posted: January 11, 2019 at 05:58 PM (#5804825)
If he thinks he's good enough to play in MLB, I think he'd be crazy to play in the NFL.

They've taken out almost all physical contact in baseball (2nd and home being homes to the biggest collisions). This is life for an NFL quarterback (a perfectly legal hit).
   18. Shibal Posted: January 11, 2019 at 11:07 PM (#5804870)
As the football set celebrated Murray's symbolic step toward leaning in its direction, one A's fan and baseball blogger was so dismayed she sent a vicious tweet about Murray and wound up getting fired.


What was this about?
   19. Lars6788 Posted: January 11, 2019 at 11:21 PM (#5804873)
What was this about?


Kyler Murray tweets
   20. depletion Posted: January 12, 2019 at 11:08 AM (#5804889)
It's tough to turn down immediate money (and fame). He is expected to be a 1st round pick if he assures the NFL he intends to play football (not sure how that is done - getting out of his baseball contract?). If he does not drop baseball, he might go in the 5th or 6th round. And I agree with the first post (Dan Lee), if his career goes more Doug Flutie than Russell Wilson, he can always go back to A ball (barring injuries). Baker Mayfield's success surely helps his draft stock, as Oklahoma QB's were not considered super prospects in previous years.
   21. TDF, trained monkey Posted: January 12, 2019 at 12:44 PM (#5804906)
Seems like the right move for Murray is to play football for 2-3 years, bank 20 or 30 million dollars, retire before the head injuries get really bad, and go play baseball.
1. Rookie contracts are for 4 years, and much of the money they get is in the signing bonus - last year, Baker Mayfield signed for 4/$32.68M with almost $22M of that as a signing bonus. If he "retires" before the contract is up, he'll have to pay back a pro-rated part of that bonus back.

2. But Mayfield went #1 overall, and I haven't seen anyone talk about Murray there. This draft on CBSSports has him at #29, the 4th QB taken. The #29 pick in last year's draft (Taven Bryan) signed for 4/$10.2; the closest QB was Lamar Jackson (#32) who signed for 4/$9.5M.

A lot can change between today and the draft, but he's got $5M in hand. I can't imagine giving that up for a chance at $10M given the very real chance of injury (both short- and long-term types).
I looked at a few pre-season NFL draft rankings and none of them had Mayfield (I assume you mean Murray) as a first rounder or ranked in the top 10 QBs available
Murray didn't start a game last season, and the only game he threw more than 5 passes was mopping up in a 56-7 blowout vs. UTEP. The year before at Texas A&M, he was the 2nd stringer, starter, 2nd stringer, starter, and 2nd stringer again.

Additionally, you wouldn't have found Dwayne Haskins on any pre-season draft lists yet today he's generally listed as going #5-10 overall.
   22. Khrushin it bro Posted: January 12, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5804928)
But Mayfield went #1 overall, and I haven't seen anyone talk about Murray there


The head coach with the pick did.
   23. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2019 at 06:51 PM (#5805118)
Jeff Passan:
Major League Baseball would waive a rule that prevents teams from giving major league contracts to recently drafted players if Kyler Murray and the Oakland A's can strike a deal that would have him choose baseball over football, league sources told ESPN.

Sure, Rob Manfred would listen if Scott Boras asked him to just ignore a rule. Why should Kyler Murray follow the same system that has screwed over other players?
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5805124)
Major League Baseball would waive a rule that prevents teams from giving major league contracts to recently drafted players if Kyler Murray and the Oakland A's can strike a deal that would have him choose baseball over football, league sources told ESPN.
It's one thing to weigh the relative merits of baseball vs. football, but trying to use football as leverage to renegotiate a contract he already signed is a total dick move. That's a new low, even for Boras.
   25. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 13, 2019 at 07:25 PM (#5805132)
Reportedly they are asking the A’s for $15 million for Murray to give up football.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5805134)

That's just disgusting on every level. I hope the A's tell both Boras and Murray to go f*** themselves and then sue them.
   27. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 13, 2019 at 07:47 PM (#5805140)
Would you be disgusted if Murray entered the NFL draft and just decided to play football instead? It kind of seems like the A’s accepted this risk when they drafted him.

Now that I’ve thought about this for a bit, I think Murray has a problem in that now that the A’s have expressed some willingness to pay more and MLB has greenlighted the idea. It destroys his NFL draft stock because nobody wants to spend a first round pick just to be the losing bid for his services. Remember NFL picks are slotted money as well. So remaining in the picture may be enough for Oakland to drive away those NFL suitors who would pick Murray high enough to outbid his baseball contract.
   28. Brian White Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:04 PM (#5805149)
Murray is an employee of the A's. He is looking for a better job offer, and he might leave his current employer to take that job. This happens all the time, in every economic strata of the workforce. There's nothing wrong with it.
   29. Ziggy's screen name Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5805150)
That's terrific! I hadn't thought of that angle. Maybe they don't need to actually give him any money, just publicly say that they will!
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:12 PM (#5805153)
Murray is an employee of the A's. He is looking for a better job offer, and he might leave his current employer to take that job. This happens all the time, in every economic strata of the workforce. There's nothing wrong with it.
He signed a contract under false pretenses and is now trying to extort a more favorable deal instead of honoring his contractual commitment. There's a reason why that's against the law. The A's should have legal recourse unless the contract was terribly drafted, which I doubt.

Would you be disgusted if Murray entered the NFL draft and just decided to play football instead?
Less so. It's one thing to go and do something else, it's another to negotiate in bad faith and then pull this kind of crap.
   31. McCoy Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:38 PM (#5805155)
Well, the A's were part of a cartel that got to setup a system that in any other industry would be illegal and the only reason it isn't is because of one of the worst supreme Court decisions of all time.

So if some indentured servant wants to use what little leverage they have to get the best deal possible I say kudos.
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:47 PM (#5805156)
The pro-player sentiment around here knows no bounds, apparently. Teams don't even deserve to be dealt with in good faith?
   33. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 13, 2019 at 08:48 PM (#5805157)
Every sports league has a draft and MLB is the only one who “benefits” from that supreme court case. The draft exists because it is collectively bargained.
   34. depletion Posted: January 13, 2019 at 09:15 PM (#5805165)
I don't get the hostility to Murray. It's not like he is going to play for the Angels instead of the A's. He probably honestly thought he'd play baseball when he signed the deal last June. He was not a star football player last June. If you had a deal to bake cookies for $5 million and then someone offered you $10 million to flip burgers, you're not going to take the 10?
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 09:22 PM (#5805170)
He probably honestly thought he'd play baseball when he signed the deal last June. He was not a star football player last June. If you had a deal to bake cookies for $5 million and then someone offered you $10 million to flip burgers, you're not going to take the 10?
Again, if he wants to go play football, that's fine, as long as he handles it with some integrity and negotiates with the A's to make it right, given that he would be breaching his contract and essentially robbing the A's of a first-round pick. Turning around and trying to use this to extract more money from the A's, when he's already signed a contract, is just sleazy.
   36. McCoy Posted: January 13, 2019 at 09:23 PM (#5805171)
And the draft is upheld by the law with fig leaves mostly.
   37. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 09:34 PM (#5805174)
I would love to see Boras's reaction to a team trying to use leverage to renegotiate their contract with one of his players to pay him less.
   38. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 13, 2019 at 10:14 PM (#5805183)
I also don’t agree with the hostility to Murray here. I see no reason to believe he didn’t negotiate in good faith before. Whether he is now, who knows, but the assumptions being made here seem just that — assumptions. (Also, is he really that great of a baseball prospect to be worth $15m? The A’s should probably just let him play football if that’s what he decides — they would retain his rights if he washed out of the NFL and decided to resume a baseball career, right?)
   39. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 13, 2019 at 10:18 PM (#5805184)
$15M is just Boras' standard outlandish anchor. (Sheesh, you really aren't familiar with how Boras operates by now?) The figure Boras has in mind is something more like an extra $3M (so $8M total). Nevertheless I would tell him to go to hell, and I expect the A's will do the same.

Really, though, everything as to what the A's can do and what they're likely to do depends on what is actually written into the contract Murray signed with them.
   40. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2019 at 10:47 PM (#5805189)
He signed a contract under false pretenses and is now trying to extort a more favorable deal instead of honoring his contractual commitment. There's a reason why that's against the law. The A's should have legal recourse unless the contract was terribly drafted, which I doubt.

I don't believe either the A's or MLB, who should have some expertise, share that interpretation. Unless the 13th Amendment was repealed recently, Murray can opt for the NFL if he wants to - he just has to repay his bonus money to the A's. He's no different than any employee who gets a better job offer - his current employer can offer a better deal or risk him leaving.
   41. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 13, 2019 at 11:04 PM (#5805190)
Teams don't even deserve to be dealt with in good faith?

Oakland knew his football prospects when they signed him to that contract. Both sides were dealing in good faith.

Contracts are written to be broken. There are penalties for breaking the contract, and Murray appears to be willing to pay the penalties for breaking his MLB contract.

given that he would be breaching his contract and essentially robbing the A's of a first-round pick.

Do you exhibit similar anger for first round MLB picks who then go to college?

   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2019 at 11:19 PM (#5805195)
Yes, I'm well aware of the law. He can breach his contract and either negotiate his release from the A's or pay damages (assuming the A's sue, which they absolutely should). But turning around and trying to extort a more favorable contract than the one he signed what, six months ago, is reprehensible. Allowed under our legal system because you can't win specific performance of a personal services contract, but reprehensible.

Do you exhibit similar anger for first round MLB picks who then go to college?
Have they already signed a contract, and are they using college as leverage to try to extract more money?
   43. Dr. Vaux Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:05 AM (#5805197)
What would there now be to stop any draftee who has signed a slot-value contract from threatening to retire and give back the bonus unless the team "extends" him and puts him on the 40-man roster? It seems like someone might think that was a reasonable gambit, since the team wouldn't want to just forfeit the draft pick (and it would, right, since they only get a pick in the next draft if they didn't ever sign the player at all?).
   44. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:42 AM (#5805199)
He can breach his contract and either negotiate his release from the A's or pay damages (assuming the A's sue, which they absolutely should).

You're making too many assumptions here.

According to Jon Morosi of MLB.com, Murray’s contract with the A’s includes a provision that lays out how he would forgo salary or repay his signing bonus if he chooses to play in the NFL.


Source

Everyone understood there was some chance Murray's football career would take off.
   45. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:14 AM (#5805202)

What would there now be to stop any draftee who has signed a slot-value contract from threatening to retire and give back the bonus unless the team "extends" him and puts him on the 40-man roster?

The fact that teams aren't permitted by MLB to do so. MLB appears to be willing to grant a waiver for Murray because he has a legitimate, more lucrative career alternative, but they're not going to do so for an ordinary draft pick.
   46. Dr. Vaux Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:21 AM (#5805203)
That's what I would have thought, but MLB trade rumors reports it this way, apparently paraphrasing Jeff Passan at least in part:

In Murray’s case, he has already signed a minor league deal last summer, which included a $4.6MM bonus as the ninth overall selection in the 2018 draft. Since Murray is already technically under contract, no league rules would be broken if Oakland was to sign him to a Major League contract now and add him to its 40-man roster. As Bill Shaikin of the L.A. Times notes (Twitter link), Major League Baseball wouldn’t believe that Murray and the A’s were in violation of the draft pool system with this new contract unless the league felt such a handshake agreement for more money was made last summer, before Murray was originally signed.


That implies that they're not granting a waiver, they just don't consider it against the rules.
   47. manchestermets Posted: January 14, 2019 at 04:12 AM (#5805204)
What would there now be to stop any draftee who has signed a slot-value contract from threatening to retire and give back the bonus unless the team "extends" him and puts him on the 40-man roster?


The existence of a suitably lucrative alternative, for most of them. Yes, the team doesn't want to lose its draft pick, but if I were a team and my player stood to get $4m, I'd probably call this bluff if they didn't have a football draft to declare for.
   48. JJ1986 Posted: January 14, 2019 at 09:10 AM (#5805216)
My problem with MLB ignoring the rules is that the $5 million that Murray got wasn't based at all on his potential NFL-earnings at the time. It's based on MLB's bonus scale. If he had been the presumptive #1 pick in the 2019 NFL draft, they couldn't have given him much more.
   49. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 14, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5805220)
My thinking on this is: If I (as a GM or owner) draft a pitcher and give him a $5 million contract, and then he tears up his shoulder a few weeks later, his value has plummeted since he signed his contract, but I am nevertheless going to honor the contract I signed. I'm not going to pressure him to settle for $2 million now.

Quite similarly, if he signs a contract and then has a great college football season and thus his value has risen, I still expect him to honor the contract he signed. This is not an at-will employment situation; this is a contract, willingly entered into by both parties, and when you sign a contract you bind yourself to abide by it. You don't get to tear it up just because you realize later you made a bad deal, or because someone else comes along with a better offer.

BUT--that's all in the abstract, and of far greater importance is what language is in the actual contract Murray signed with the A's.

And--of course Murray's baseball contract doesn't preclude him from employment in other industries; he just isn't permitted to play baseball for any team but the A's. So of course he has the leverage, and the right, to tell them "you can give me a $12 million major league contract, else I'll give back what our contract requires me to and retire from baseball and go play football." I would tell him no thank you and best of luck with your NFL career, for reasons outlined above; but then, I wouldn't have drafted him in the first place.

But also also--I don't think Murray has as much leverage as Boras is representing he does, because I don't think he's going to be picked as highly in the NFL draft as he's hoping. NFL teams aren't going to be able to get over his height and are going to shy away from drafting him if he won't let them move him to a different position. I think ultimately he goes in the second round and ends up playing baseball, either immediately or within two years or so, because his NFL employer doesn't really want him as a quarterback.
   50. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2019 at 09:42 AM (#5805222)

My thinking on this is: If I (as a GM or owner) draft a pitcher and give him a $5 million contract, and then he tears up his shoulder a few weeks later, his value has plummeted since he signed his contract, but I am nevertheless going to honor the contract I signed. I'm not going to pressure him to settle for $2 million now.

Likewise, if he tears up the minor leagues in his first few months and looks like he should have been the #1 overall pick in the draft, you're not going to give him an extra $3m or whatever the difference in the slot money would have been. In fact, this is true even if he turns into the next Mike Trout a couple of years later -- you may pay him more in arbitration later on but you always got his baseball rights for the price of a #9 pick instead of a #1 pick.
   51. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 14, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5805263)
My thinking on this is: If I (as a GM or owner) draft a pitcher and give him a $5 million contract, and then he tears up his shoulder a few weeks later, his value has plummeted since he signed his contract, but I am nevertheless going to honor the contract I signed.
Exactly. And I'm sure Boras would agree with you.

According to Jon Morosi of MLB.com, Murray’s contract with the A’s includes a provision that lays out how he would forgo salary or repay his signing bonus if he chooses to play in the NFL.
Then obviously he has the right to do that, and again, I'm not saying it's sleazy for him to go play football, provided he compensates the A's according to the terms of the contract he signed. It's sleazy to try to renegotiate that contract, and you know he and Boras would be outraged (Outraged!) if the A's tried to do so under any circumstances.
   52. Ziggy's screen name Posted: January 14, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5805289)
I thought Pops' suggestion in 27 was that the A's would agree to renegotiate the contract after the draft, which would scare off NFL teams from drafting him, which would mean that no renegotiation would be necessary.
   53. McCoy Posted: January 14, 2019 at 11:41 AM (#5805292)
It seems to me that teams are free to pay a player whatever they and he wants at the major league level. The draft contract is to be part of the organization. Now MLB will generally be against any kind of separate deal as the evidence that the team and player are trying to circumnavigate the draft rules would probably be pretty strong on its face. But with Murray there is a strong case for a separate deal.
   54. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 14, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5805304)
I thought Pops' suggestion in 27 was that the A's would agree to renegotiate the contract after the draft, which would scare off NFL teams from drafting him, which would mean that no renegotiation would be necessary.
I hope this happens, and then they tell Boras to go eat a big shitburger.
   55. reech Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:14 PM (#5805318)
Last 20 Heisman winners-

The jury is still out on the last 5 winners, but of the previous 15- you can make a case that only 3 have had success story's in the NFL

RON DAYNE
1999 WISCONSIN RB SENIOR

CHRIS WEINKE
2000 FLORIDA STATE QB SENIOR

ERIC CROUCH
2001 NEBRASKA QB SENIOR

CARSON PALMER

2002 USC QB SENIOR

JASON WHITE
2003 OKLAHOMA QB SENIOR

MATT LEINART
2004 USC QB JUNIOR

TROY SMITH
2006 OHIO STATE QB SENIOR

TIM TEBOW
2007 FLORIDA QB SOPHOMORE

SAM BRADFORD
2008 OKLAHOMA QB SOPHOMORE

MARK INGRAM
2009 ALABAMA RB SOPHOMORE

CAM NEWTON
2010 AUBURN QB JUNIOR

ROBERT GRIFFIN III
2011 BAYLOR QB JUNIOR

JOHNNY MANZIEL
2012 TEXAS A&M QB FRESHMAN

JAMEIS WINSTON
2013 FLORIDA STATE QB FRESHMAN

MARCUS MARIOTA
2014 OREGON QB JUNIOR

DERRICK HENRY
2015 ALABAMA RB JUNIOR

LAMAR JACKSON
2016 LOUISVILLE QB SOPHOMORE

BAKER MAYFIELD
2017 OKLAHOMA QB SENIOR

KYLER MURRAY
2018 OKLAHOMA QB JUNIOR
   56. Topher Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5805320)
ElRoy Face (asking you since you've been most vocal here)

I'm curious if you have the same position on NFL holdouts. I think the two situations are somewhat similar. In both situations there is an existing contract, but the player feels there is leverage in not playing that could result in the team agreeing to tear up the old contract and issue a new one. Like Murray, many of the NFL holdouts are for players that are on their rookie contracts that are mostly a product of where you were drafted and there isn't all that much one can do to negotiate for better terms.

I'm not asking this as a gotcha of any sort. Just curious since I think in general terms, fans are more and more ok with the concept of NFL players holding out as long as the player isn't on their favorite team.
   57. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:25 PM (#5805325)
I don't follow the NFL at all, so I've never thought about the holdout issue before. But yeah, if they had already signed a contract, then that seems pretty sleazy too. If you are dead set on getting $X, inform teams before they draft you, and don't sign a contract for less than $X.
   58. JJ1986 Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5805331)
Manziel and Leinart outright failed, but a lot of those QBs (Weinke, Crouch, White, Smith, Tebow) weren't expected to be NFL stars. They were mostly later draft picks and/or asked to play other positions.
   59. SoSH U at work Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5805335)
If Bradford's bold-faced worthy, then I'd suggest Mariota should be as well.

   60. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5805338)
And Mark Ingram has had a pretty good NFL career with New Orleans.

If Manziel counts as an NFL failure then Tebow does too. They were drafted at almost the same position (late first round) and were widely regarded as overdrafts there. I don't think either was really expected to be a successful NFL quarterback by anyone except the team that drafted them.
   61. McCoy Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5805356)
Paste beat me to Mark Ingram so I'll add that it is possible that Jameis Winston does well enough to be considered a success.
   62. JJ1986 Posted: January 14, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5805357)
I was as down on Manziel as anyone, but he wasn't regarded as an overdraft. Prognosticators thought he was going to go much higher than 22.
   63. McCoy Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5805368)
Perhaps it is because I am a Bears fan but I feel like any team that goes out there and drafts a RB in the top 5 should be dragged out back and beaten. Running backs are going to almost always be viewed as a disappointment at that level.
   64. Ziggy's screen name Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5805384)
Oh man, a football hijack? Take it over to FBTF folks.
   65. McCoy Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:38 PM (#5805386)
Put this in the wrong thread:

I feel like RGIII had what would be considered a successful career if Washington hadn't been so stupid in the draft.
   66. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 14, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5805389)
Oh man, a football hijack? Take it over to FBTF folks.
They're going to demand that we pay them millions to return the thread to baseball.
   67. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 14, 2019 at 03:51 PM (#5805438)
Deion: "If I was in his shoes, I'm picking up the baseball bat and I'm not looking back."

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