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Sunday, March 24, 2019

Inside the Derek Jeter-Brian Cashman feud that festered for years before Stanton heist

That festered for years.

Jim Furtado Posted: March 24, 2019 at 07:05 AM | 52 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brian cashman, derek jeter, yankees

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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 23, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5824815)
This article really make Jeter sound like an ass**** and an idiot. e.g.:

In late November 2017, he’d been given a diktat by Jeter. “It was, ‘Take this f–ing deal with the Giants or the Cardinals, or I promise you I’m trading everybody around you and you’ll be stuck here forever,’ ” said someone who was privy to those talks. Stanton had seventy-two hours to agree. He didn’t, per our sources, need them. Replying through his agent, he was River Avenue terse: No, and HELL no, goddamnit.


Worth a read.
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: March 23, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5824822)
if you don't read TFA, worth noting that this is Bob Klapisch's new book. he spent the 2018 season covering the Yankees for some Rolling Stone articles and also to write this book. he's got more than 30 years experience in covering the Yankees and Mets, so he's got stories.
   3. Greg Pope Posted: March 23, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5824828)
In late November 2017, he’d been given a diktat by Jeter.


diktat? ... goes to Google...

Huh, it's a real word. Although it doesn't seem to be being used correctly here.

Miriam-Webster says

a harsh settlement unilaterally imposed (as on a defeated nation)


This seems more of an ultimatum. But hey, I learned a new word.
   4. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 23, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5824832)

Huh, it's a real word. Although it doesn't seem to be being used correctly here.



I had never heard it before either, but it does appear to be used correctly if you follow googles dictionary

an order or decree imposed by someone in power without popular consent.
   5. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: March 23, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5824833)
Replying through his agent, he was River Avenue terse: No, and HELL no, goddamnit.

Gotta do better than that. \"#### you, and don't forget your gift basket," maybe.
   6. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 23, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5824837)
After you get Derek Jeter's diktat, you get a bazkat.
   7. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: March 23, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5824839)
The excerpt in the link is well worth the read, I think I'll probably buy the book when it comes out in a few days.

Jeter being a dick didn't surprise me much, but this did:

But the story of this team, the one that emerged from the last big fail in 2014, begins with Cashman mending the gap between the northern and southern offices of the Yanks. All baseball decisions now run through him, though the team’s three pillars — the heads of analytics, scouting, and business affairs — have a seat at his conference table. It isn’t till they’ve had their say and reached consensus that Cashman brings a potential deal to Hal. Hal then talks to his own consigliere — his older brother Hank. “Hal knows the business, but it’s Hank who knows baseball,” says a staffer of the brother who stepped back in 2009 to look after the family’s stables in Ocala. “He always kept a hand in after George died. Hal does nothing without going to him first.”


I guess I owe Hank an apology for all those "Fredo" cracks, though I'm still not sure I can believe it ...
   8. Blastin Posted: March 23, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5824846)
he somehow remembered every slight and provocation.


This makes him sound exactly like Jordan, then. Who is just as bad an owner.
   9. puck Posted: March 23, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5824849)
That excerpt sure makes Cashman look good and Jeter look like a dick.

Even if you take it all with a grain of salt, it seems crazy that that's the best ownership group they could get for the Marlins.
   10. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: March 23, 2019 at 03:25 PM (#5824852)
the family’s stables in Ocala


Florida does seem like ARod's kind of place.
   11. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 23, 2019 at 03:31 PM (#5824853)
Watching the scales fall from peoples' eyes about Jeter's true self is giving me warm fuzzies.
   12. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: March 23, 2019 at 04:20 PM (#5824855)
Even if you take it all with a grain of salt, it seems crazy that that's the best ownership group they could get for the Marlins.


Well, it probably wasn't. That would have been Jorge Mas, I believe, but it wasn't about the "best ownership group", it was about the ownership group that would cough up the most money (the "we haven't really got the money, so we'll slash payroll while driving up your ownership equity by paying over market and help keep player salaries down" part didn't hurt either) ...

Watching the scales fall from peoples' eyes about Jeter's true self is giving me warm fuzzies.


This quote from the excerpt made me laugh:

Jeter wasn’t fun to general-manage — or to have playing behind you when you pitched. “When Andy [Pettitte] came back from Houston, there was a ground ball up the middle, and Andy’s like, ‘All right, that’s an out,’ ” says Cashman. “Next thing you know, it goes through for a hit and he’s like, ‘Crap, Jetes can’t get to those anymore.’ ”


Heh, BBTF had been making "pasta" jokes about Jeter for *years* by that time ... hell, he couldn't really get to them in the first place.
   13. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 23, 2019 at 04:40 PM (#5824856)
Heh, BBTF had been making "pasta" jokes about Jeter for *years* by that time ... hell, he couldn't really get to them in the first place.

you beat me to it
   14. Lars6788 Posted: March 23, 2019 at 04:52 PM (#5824859)
Humor me this - why is it always the Jeter who is the bad guy here? Maybe this is just some hit job to chip away at his legacy.

Is it any of our business to judge what goes on behind the scenes and take glee in someone’s shortcomings?
   15. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: March 23, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5824862)
Watching the scales fall from peoples' eyes about Jeter's true self is giving me warm fuzzies.
I haven't liked him since his reported reaction to the attempted Huckaby apology.
   16. phredbird Posted: March 23, 2019 at 05:12 PM (#5824864)

no. 6 is not getting enough love.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 23, 2019 at 05:50 PM (#5824876)
Humor me this - why is it always the Jeter who is the bad guy here?

Because he has intentionally gutted a franchise to pad his own pockets, lied about it egregiously, and hasn't even gotten any decent talent back?
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: March 23, 2019 at 06:22 PM (#5824881)
Humor me this - why is it always the Jeter who is the bad guy here?


Because he feels like a bad guy to pretty much every normal human who has a real job and life. He just feels like an entitled prima dona who actively goes out of his way to cultivate a positive image, while behind the scenes being a total #########..(without the rape, he feels like baseballs version of Ben Roethlinsberger or Kobe Bryant) This article talks about the reason that the sale was approved to the Jeter group, and that it was based mostly because his group agreed before hand to the other 29 owners to gut the team.... and it doesn't at all seem like an unlikely scenario.

The number of stories out there about the personality of Jeter behind the scenes doesn't paint a good picture, and for a guy who goes so far out of his way to cultivate his image, that is impressive... Nobody is saying good things about Jeter behind the scenes, sure you have the superficial praise from the McCarvers or others but you don't hear anything positive about his actions that isn't a clear created image soundbite. Pujols, Ortiz, even Arod all have positive behind the scenes stories told about them and their actions behind the scenes.... you don't get those stories leaking out about Jeter.

   19. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 23, 2019 at 06:26 PM (#5824883)
Is it any of our business to judge what goes on behind the scenes and take glee in someone’s shortcomings?
Dude. Have you met the internet?
   20. GGC Posted: March 23, 2019 at 06:27 PM (#5824884)
I haven't liked him since his reported reaction to the attempted Huckaby apology.


Am I the only one who thought Gary Huckaby first, instead of Ken?
   21. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: March 23, 2019 at 06:42 PM (#5824887)
Humor me this - why is it always the Jeter who is the bad guy here? Maybe this is just some hit job to chip away at his legacy.

It's evidently a decades-long conspiracy to chip away at his legacy by making up stories about what a dick he's always been.
   22. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: March 23, 2019 at 07:07 PM (#5824888)
Humor me this - why is it always the Jeter who is the bad guy here?


Well, to be fair, he was good in the beginning, but then he went too far (except to his left, of course) ...
   23. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 23, 2019 at 07:12 PM (#5824889)
Jeter wasn’t fun to general-manage — or to have playing behind you when you pitched. “When Andy [Pettitte] came back from Houston, there was a ground ball up the middle, and Andy’s like, ‘All right, that’s an out,’ ” says Cashman. “Next thing you know, it goes through for a hit and he’s like, ‘Crap, Jetes can’t get to those anymore.’ ”


What's most interesting about this quote is the tactic admission that the Yankees were quite aware of what everyone else knew about Jeter's fielding - and yet did nothing to address the situation.
   24. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: March 23, 2019 at 07:21 PM (#5824890)
Also:

But it’s hard to make a buck by wooing pissed-off fans, then playing them for suckers two months later. Pre-sale, Sherman and Jeter advertised a team built around assets like Stanton. After the deal closed, though, word leaked to the Miami Herald about a secret prospectus given to investors. It talked up scorched-earth payrolls, absurdly robust gate sales, and cash infusions from a phantom TV deal. This, after Jeter and Sherman botched the takeover by firing goodwill legends like Andre Dawson and Jeff Conine and dumping a longtime scout with colon cancer. As southern rollouts go, this was William Tecumseh Sherman burning down Atlanta. At a town hall meeting to assuage hurt feelings, Jeter kiddingly told a fan that he could throw out the first pitch, as long as he bought a ten-year ticket plan.


Heh ... "kiddingly".
   25. Walt Davis Posted: March 23, 2019 at 09:08 PM (#5824900)
What's most interesting about this quote is the tactic admission that the Yankees were quite aware of what everyone else knew about Jeter's fielding - and yet did nothing to address the situation.

Such as what exactly? Pettite returned in 2007. ARod ensconced at 3B on his shiny new contract, Jeter himself under long-term contract, the young Cano establishing himself at 2B, Giambi still there with Tex arriving soon. They could have tried shifting him to the OF I suppose but they had lots of guys in that rotation (Matsui, Abreu, Damon, young Melky, the surprising Gardner on the way). Obviously they could have made room for him between OF and DH by trading somebody but that's a big risk to take with a major contributor. And obviously nobody would take the PR hit of trading Jeter at 33.

And from 2007-9 he put up 13 WAR ... and won a GG with one more GG to come! :-) The next 3 years were clearly below-average but not huge disasters. So really we're left with the obvious that ARod should have been kept at SS back when the Yanks acquired him.

He was a terrible fielder but let's not understate what a valuable player he was. At 95 oWAR (about 50 oWAA), he's one of the greatest offensive SS's of all time. By Rbat alone, in about the same PA, he's got a few less than Billy Williams, more than Molitor, about 60 more than Raines, not far off Rose despite Rose's PA advantage. Add in baserunning/DP and he catches Williams and even Clemente (and Raines catches him and he falls a bit behind Molitor. So sure, like those guys, he probably should have spent most of his career in a corner OF, 1B, DH but it's hardly bad company to be in.
   26. base ball chick Posted: March 23, 2019 at 10:36 PM (#5824908)
Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: March 23, 2019 at 04:20 PM (#5824855)

Even if you take it all with a grain of salt, it seems crazy that that's the best ownership group they could get for the Marlins.

- Well, it probably wasn't. That would have been Jorge Mas, I believe, but it wasn't about the "best ownership group", it was about the ownership group that would cough up the most money (the "we haven't really got the money, so we'll slash payroll while driving up your ownership equity by paying over market and help keep player salaries down" part didn't hurt either) ...

Watching the scales fall from peoples' eyes about Jeter's true self is giving me warm fuzzies.


- me too
he was always a self serving phony who had the cliche blobs down perfect



This quote from the excerpt made me laugh:

Jeter wasn’t fun to general-manage — or to have playing behind you when you pitched. “When Andy [Pettitte] came back from Houston, there was a ground ball up the middle, and Andy’s like, ‘All right, that’s an out,’ ” says Cashman. “Next thing you know, it goes through for a hit and he’s like, ‘Crap, Jetes can’t get to those anymore.’ ”


- pettitte had 3 years of adam everett and glove wise, that is like comparing keith hernandez to mo vaughn
   27. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 24, 2019 at 12:08 AM (#5824918)

What's most interesting about this quote is the tactic admission that the Yankees were quite aware of what everyone else knew about Jeter's fielding - and yet did nothing to address the situation.

I think what pissed off BTF people was the on going claim in the late 2000s that HE WAS TOO a good fielder as outlined here.Rob Neyer started it with his throw-away statement on some radio show about what a horseshit fielder Jeter was leading to the inevitable backlash
   28. Cowboy Popup Posted: March 24, 2019 at 08:20 AM (#5824926)
I haven't liked him since his reported reaction to the attempted Huckaby apology.


I really shouldn't do this, but why would you be mad at Jeter for not forgiving a guy who hurt him on a dirty play (that could have been much worse)?

I guess I know what I'm going to get back here. But I'm still waiting, 16 years later, for the next time a catcher slides knees first into an opposing player's head. And given all the noise folks have made about player safety issues with running into the catcher at home and sliding into the second baseman, I would have hoped the general attitude on this play would have been reevaluated by now.
   29. J in the Slope Posted: March 24, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5824934)
So really we're left with the obvious that ARod should have been kept at SS back when the Yanks acquired him.


Then do the obvious thing. It was the obvious thing at the time. The Yankees were bringing in a slightly younger shortstop that was worth 5.2 dWAR from 2000-2003 to play with a slightly older shortstop that was worth -3.4 dWAR. They were bringing in the best player in baseball with the richest contract in baseball. Equally important, the lesser player who was already below average defensively was The Captain, a team-first guy willing to sacrifice anything to win it all. So why didn't The Captain offer to move? A-Rod was better. Jeter had mediocre range and a good arm and would have been fine at third.

So do the obvious thing, Captain Jeter. But he didn't.
   30. Darren Posted: March 24, 2019 at 12:46 PM (#5824939)
There is a lot of really fun inside baseball stuff here, but the worshipping of the Yankees front office is nauseating. Almost too much to bear.

I'll say this: Cashman is amazing at his job. It's fun to see behind the curtain at what he is doing.
   31. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 24, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5824943)
Here's my favorite part of the story. Before finalizing the trade for Stanton, Cashman wanted to run it by Aaron Judge.
All that remained was to make a second call, this one to Cashman’s best player. “I phoned [Aaron] Judge to make sure I dotted every i,” he says. “If there was an issue, I needed to vet it with him, not have him hear about it later from the Post.”

It’s rare that a GM consults his star before pulling the trigger on a trade; it’s rarer still to consult a star who’d just finished his rookie season. But what a rookie season — and what a star. Judge was selfless and sweet-natured, a franchise talent with the character to match and shoulders that could carry a whole roster. His transformational power had goosed their stale lineup, made it feared and fun and must-watch TV, beginning with his batting-practice rockets. He carried that energy into the clubhouse, where the team adopted his spirit: free and easy, a group of kids thrown together, enjoying the ride of their lives. By the middle of May 2017, Judge was the face of the franchise; by July, he was the face of the sport. He was too nice a guy to be nettled by a trade, or too nice a guy to say so. But as Cashman had learned with the Jeter follies, a star’s pride must be honored. Offering him early buy-in, or the illusion of it, can save a team’s chemistry.

“Judge was like, ‘Wow! That’s incredible — what’re you waiting for?!’ ” says Cashman. “I said, ‘Well, it could affect your time in right.’ He said, ‘Whatever. I’ll DH or play left!’ ” Through a variety of scouts, Cashman had heard the same thing about Stanton: he’d do anything the Yankees asked of him.

Kind of makes me think that team chemistry isn't going to be much of a problem for the Yankees over the next few years.
   32. Cris E Posted: March 24, 2019 at 02:34 PM (#5824949)
I'll say this: Cashman is amazing at his job. It's fun to see behind the curtain at what he is doing.

He's had the benefit of learning his trade in an outstanding organization, he's been able to stay in the job for an eternity, and after twenty years in one of the biggest chairs in sports he's managed to keep his ego from driving his behavior. Any of one those would make him a very good GM, but taken all together with as much money as anyone could want it's led to quite a story. Extra big hat tip though, as nothing guarantees success in such a tough media market working for a crazy tough owner.
   33. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 24, 2019 at 08:37 PM (#5824999)
Funny how over the last 20+ years the Yankees have gone from being the most erratic organizations in baseball to being one of the most stable: After 19 managerial changes in 19 years, they've had just one GM and three managers since 1998.
   34. dejarouehg Posted: March 24, 2019 at 09:01 PM (#5825001)
Funny how over the last 20+ years the Yankees have gone from being the most erratic organizations in baseball to being one of the most stable: After 19 managerial changes in 19 years, they've had just one GM and three managers since 1998.
Could it be a function of the reduced influence of the most overrated owner in the history of baseball?

Interesting how Hank was portrayed as a guy who really knows baseball. He was single-handedly responsible for signing the most flagrantly stupid contract - again doing what the Yankees did best, bidding against themselves - with ARod II.
   35. BrianBrianson Posted: March 24, 2019 at 09:02 PM (#5825002)
I really shouldn't do this, but why would you be mad at Jeter for not forgiving a guy who hurt him on a dirty play (that could have been much worse)?


You're misremembering the play.
   36. QLE Posted: March 24, 2019 at 10:59 PM (#5825015)
Could it be a function of the reduced influence of the most overrated owner in the history of baseball?


Is he really that overrated, though? The impression I've always had is that Steinbrenner was universally regarded as someone who had little to contribute other than his checkbook, and quite a few observers have not found it to be a coincidence that the two really good teams he had were ones largely put together during periods when he was banned from the game.
   37. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 25, 2019 at 12:10 AM (#5825021)
On the Steinbrenner front, Harding Steinbrenner Racing (co-owned by George Steinbrenner IV) won their first IndyCar race today - with an 18-year-old driver, the youngest winner in IndyCar history.
   38. phredbird Posted: March 25, 2019 at 01:08 AM (#5825025)
OK, 22 made me laugh almost as hard as 6.

i knew this thread would be a bit of a throwback to the kinds of threads i used to enjoy here ...

bbc, glad to see you here. i don't do FB anymore, so mebbe we can email sometime or something.
   39. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: March 25, 2019 at 02:14 AM (#5825027)

Am I the only one who thought Gary Huckaby first, instead of Ken?


Probably, but I can pretty much guarantee I'm the only one that misread that post and thought ... "Huckabee? Mike Huckabee? WTF does Mike Huckabee have to do with Derek Jeter??? Oh ... Huckaby! Got it ... Doh!"

I can only hope I'm not yelling at clouds and complaining about the number of states in a few years.

p.s. please eliminate three ...

   40. McCoy Posted: March 25, 2019 at 09:35 AM (#5825039)

You're misremembering the play.


I'm pretty sure this was Cowboy's view at the time as well.

a few observers have not found it to be a coincidence that the two really good teams he had were ones largely put together during periods when he was banned from the game.

Steinbrenner was about as banned as Bobby Valentine stayed ejected. Even with the the ban he still called the shots and made the decisions. The best you can say is that with the bans he wasn't as much of a micromanager as he normally was.


   41. Traderdave Posted: March 25, 2019 at 09:50 AM (#5825043)
Will Jeter's Holy Image eventually fade, like former choirboy Steve Garvey's?

   42. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 25, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5825073)
Funny how over the last 20+ years the Yankees have gone from being the most erratic organizations in baseball to being one of the most stable: After 19 managerial changes in 19 years, they've had just one GM and three managers since 1998.

Could it be a function of the reduced influence of the most overrated owner in the history of baseball?


Maybe so, but when do you date that from? Wasn't he still hovering over everyone from 2002-07, when the "old" Steinbrenner would've fired both Torre and Cashman for their back to back postseason flops?
   43. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 25, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5825076)
Is he really that overrated, though?


He was on the ballot for the Hall of Fame, and drew a significant amount of support, so yes.
   44. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 25, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5825079)
Huckaby’s play wasn’t dirty. He was a catcher busting it down the line to try and cover third base, something that catchers don’t usually have to do, the throw was behind him, which put him off balance, and it turned out badly. An unfortunate accident, but an accident nonetheless.
   45. crict Posted: March 25, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5825088)
Here's the video of the Huckaby-Jeter play.
   46. Omineca Greg Posted: March 25, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5825089)
Am I the only one who thought Gary Huckaby first, instead of Ken?

[looks back and forth sheepishly]

[raises hand shyly]
   47. villageidiom Posted: March 25, 2019 at 04:00 PM (#5825195)
You're misremembering the play.

I'm pretty sure this was Cowboy's view at the time as well.
The threads from back then don't include him, but the majority of Yankees fans (and other teams' fans) in the threads seem to express the play was clean and the injury was clearly unintentional.

The big dispute at the time was whether Jeter should have been called out for rolling off the base in pain while being tagged. Some argued that Huckaby's contact pushed Jeter off the base (it did not), while others argued that time should have been called by the umpires because of the injury (umps are not to call time for injury while the ball is in play, but can call time for injury once the play has been stopped; the dispute was whether play had stopped with the tag attempt).
   48. McCoy Posted: March 25, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5825197)
Cowboy has always struck me as a jeter and yankee fanboy/defender.
   49. Cowboy Popup Posted: March 25, 2019 at 06:22 PM (#5825222)
Well, that is certainly a fair description of me at the time. I’m not really a Yankee fan anymore but I rarely post about baseball here.

As I recall, I was very much in the minority about the play being dirty. It seems I still am. But I don’t understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that the play was clean.

My comment was more about curiosity than any interest in relitigating this. I thought that in light of the increased concern about player safety, especially on this board, people might see the play for what it is: a reckless endangerment of another player dressed up as hustle. But I guess not. That’s fine, My curiosity has been sated.
   50. cardsfanboy Posted: March 25, 2019 at 07:36 PM (#5825230)
Is he really that overrated, though? The impression I've always had is that Steinbrenner was universally regarded as someone who had little to contribute other than his checkbook, and quite a few observers have not found it to be a coincidence that the two really good teams he had were ones largely put together during periods when he was banned from the game.


He keeps barely missing the veteran's hof vote, so yes he's massively overrated. Inferior to Auggie Busch as an owner, but more than likely to end up in the hof.
   51. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: March 25, 2019 at 07:58 PM (#5825235)
Accepting for the sake of argument that the play was dirty, one can still hold Jeter's actions against him. Huckaby's intent clearly wasn't to hurt Jeter. He was simply playing hard, the way everyone always fawned over Jeter for. I'd expect a mature adult to be able to recognize that and offer forgiveness.

It's not the worst thing anyone's ever done, and I'm generally in favor of not judging people - other than Jeter, of course - based on their worst moments. But it is small and spiteful and counter to his reputation as the greatest and classiest and grittiest and captainiest sportsman in the history of the universe.
   52. Cowboy Popup Posted: March 25, 2019 at 08:18 PM (#5825239)
But it is small and spiteful and counter to his reputation as the greatest and classiest and grittiest and captainiest sportsman in the history of the universe.

I don't accept many of your assumptions in your first paragraph but sure, this seems like a reasonable takeaway. I think it is generally pretty easy to find evidence that undermines hyperbole. And there is certainly plenty of evidence that Jeter wasn't the most benevolent ballplayer of all time.

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