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Wednesday, May 01, 2013

Is Adam Dunn The Worst DH In History? #DunnOMeter

I for one, will not forget my old pal Winston Llenas!

EDITOR’S NOTE: This week, we’re rolling out the Dunn-O-Meter — kids use #DunnOMeter on the Twitter — our weekly measurement of just how bad Adam Dunn is…playing. It’s the easiest assignment we’ve ever had!

There are plenty of ways to sugarcoat Adam Dunn’s tenure on the Chicago White Sox: He’s a “three-true-outcome” guy, the White Sox haven’t handled him well, his 2012 season makes up for his historically bad 2011 season. But let’s be honest, he’s been bad enough that it’s really worth asking the question: Is Adam Dunn the worst DH in the history of professional baseball?

To put it blunty: Yup.

Below is a chart of the worst OPS seasons in MLB history, for players with at least 450 plate appearances, and who accumulated at least half of them as a designated hitter. Dunn’s .569 OPS of 2011 ties him with Ted Simmons for the worst in history.

Repoz Posted: May 01, 2013 at 05:48 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: white sox

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   1. Danny Posted: May 01, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4431058)
Adam Dunn: .148/.242/.375
Tampa Bay DH: .119/.250/.238
Baltimore DH: .144/.257/.244
   2. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: May 01, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4431133)
It would be interesting to see which teams have had the best and worst hitting at each position over the years.

EDIT: This site seems to have information, but it doesn't seem to be presented in a way that I can understand:

http://www.baseballbypositions.com/

   3. cardsfanboy Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:03 PM (#4431148)
It would be interesting to see which teams have had the best and worst hitting at each position over the years.


If you have pi, you can search team splits over a time period.

Here is the result of PI by Dh since 2010 sorted by ops.
Rk       Split Year   G   OPS  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPSsOPS+
                                                                                                                                       
1    BOS as DH 2013  26 1.116 109  91 18  34 10  0  5  24  7  0 15  19 .374 .468 .648 1.116  59   4   2  0  1   2   0  .426   180   190
2    CLE 
as DH 2013  24  .946 101  86 21  24  7  0  6  17  1  0 13  19 .279 .376 .570  .946  49   2   1  0  1   0   0  .290   136   145
3    BOS 
as DH 2011 153  .925 677 588 94 181 42  1 29 102  4  3 83 101 .308 .394 .531  .925 312  24   3  0  3  12   5  .330   128   141
4    OAK 
as DH 2013  28  .905 125 104 20  26  9  1  6  19  2  1 20  21 .250 .376 .529  .905  55   4   1  0  0   2   0  .260   135   135
5    NYY 
as DH 2013  26  .897 112  96 17  25  3  1  7  19  1  0 14  23 .260 .366 .531  .897  51   1   2  0  0   2   0  .273   134   132
6    BOS 
as DH 2010 153  .866 674 577 89 152 40  1 32 108  0  1 91 151 .263 .364 .503  .866 290  18   2  0  4  15   0  .302   119   130
7    BAL 
as DH 2010 153  .865 649 565 81 157 30  3 31  85  2  2 67 125 .278 .359 .506  .865 286   8   8  2  7   6   7  .303   145   129
8    NYY 
as DH 2012 153  .860 657 583 93 171 32  0 29 100 10  0 62 132 .293 .362 .497  .860 290  14   5  0  7   5   2  .331   117   127
9    MIN 
as DH 2010 153  .856 658 553 90 146 25  3 31 107  1  2 94 132 .264 .368 .488  .856 270  16   2  0  9   8   5  .288   124   127
10   TEX 
as DH 2013  24  .840 103  84 18  24  6  0  2  16  1  0 18  15 .286 .412 .429  .840  36   1   0  1  0   1   0  .328   126   122
11   TEX 
as DH 2010 153  .836 677 622 92 189 29  1 28 127  7  4 34  76 .304 .347 .489  .836 304  21  12  0  9   4   8  .306   119   121
12   KCR 
as DH 2012 153  .835 659 600 73 181 30  1 24  97  8  1 49 109 .302 .360 .475  .835 285  18   7  0  3   8   3  .334   132   121
13   TEX 
as DH 2011 153  .834 666 602 94 173 36  3 26 108  8  3 56  97 .287 .347 .487  .834 293  16   2  0  6   3   7  .303   108   117
14   BOS 
as DH 2012 153  .833 651 571 87 159 36  3 23  74  3  5 74 125 .278 .360 .473  .833 270  11   1  1  4  12   3  .319   128   121
15   KCR 
as DH 2011 153  .819 673 592 81 174 44  0 17  95  4  1 69 101 .294 .365 .454  .819 269  16   2  1  9  13   6  .325   120   115
16   LAA 
as DH 2013  23  .816 109  98 12  29  6  0  3  15  1  0 11  19 .296 .367 .449  .816  44   8   0  0  0   5   1  .342   126   113
17   SEA 
as DH 2013  29  .809 127 109 10  30  5  0  4  10  0  2 17  20 .275 .378 .431  .809  47   6   1  0  0   1   2  .306   138   112
18   TOR 
as DH 2012 153  .809 644 571 76 152 20  0 32  95  8  2 58 119 .266 .340 .469  .809 268  11   8  2  5   9  11  .282   125   114
19   DET 
as DH 2011 153  .796 652 595 90 180 41  0 14 103  6  1 49  71 .303 .354 .442  .796 263  20   2  0  6   6   8  .322   106   109
20   CLE 
as DH 2011 153  .789 654 588 82 157 35  2 23  94  2  2 56 149 .267 .338 .451  .789 265  13   8  0  2   6   3  .321   120   106
21   LAA 
as DH 2012 153  .788 652 607 84 166 33  2 27  91  3  0 37 139 .273 .321 .468  .788 284  17   6  0  2   2  11  .314   105   108
22   NYY 
as DH 2011 153  .786 646 569 74 143 21  1 30  85  4  4 68 130 .251 .336 .450  .786 256  19   6  1  2   5  12  .275    99   105
23   OAK 
as DH 2012 153  .782 659 574 81 147 28  2 24  83  7  2 71 173 .256 .345 .437  .782 251   6   9  1  4   5   8  .323   120   108
24   CHW 
as DH 2012 153  .781 662 566 89 130 18  1 34  92  3  0 87 182 .230 .335 .445  .781 252  11   5  0  4   3   5  .271   111   107
25   NYY 
as DH 2010 153  .777 666 587 82 150 31  1 25  83  5  2 68 152 .256 .338 .440  .777 258  13   6  3  2   4   2  .303    98   107
26   CHW 
as DH 2013  22  .773  90  83 13  18  3  0  7  15  1  0  5  27 .217 .267 .506  .773  42   1   1  0  1   0   0  .220   124    98
27   TOR 
as DH 2011 153  .770 650 577 81 151 30  1 22  76 11  2 62 128 .262 .338 .432  .770 249  16   7  0  4   3   8  .299   111   101
28   CHW 
as DH 2011 153  .767 663 559 58 138 28  0 21  83  2  3 87 168 .247 .357 .410  .767 229  13  12  0  5   6   4  .312   118   102
29   MIN 
as DH 2012 153  .763 658 569 78 144 33  6 18  95  8  0 70 128 .253 .336 .427  .763 243  17   7  0 12   7   3  .290   113   103
30   CLE 
as DH 2010 153  .761 652 575 66 145 36  1 21  69  5  1 61 148 .252 .333 .428  .761 246   7  11  1  4  10   4  .302   117   102
31   MIN 
as DH 2011 153  .760 640 564 68 138 26  0 26  96  5  0 70 135 .245 .331 .429  .760 242  14   4  0  2   7   6  .277   127    99
32   TOR 
as DH 2013  27  .755 113  93 16  22  6  0  3  10  2  1 17  20 .237 .357 .398  .755  37   3   1  1  1   0   0  .268   120    98
33   KCR 
as DH 2010 153  .755 656 580 74 146 31  2 22  78  3  1 59 120 .252 .329 .426  .755 247  17  10  1  5   4   2  .280   106   101
34   TEX 
as DH 2012 153  .754 652 593 88 157 37  4 18  78  3  3 50  97 .265 .323 .432  .754 256  16   3  0  5   8   7  .288    94   100
35   TBR 
as DH 2011 153  .744 685 620 83 161 34  7 18  77 18  6 51 104 .260 .320 .424  .744 263   7   7  1  6   1  11  .284   105    94
36   BAL 
as DH 2011 153  .734 654 616 71 174 32  1 16  70  2  2 27  63 .282 .318 .416  .734 256  24   7  0  4   5   6  .292   101    92
37   BAL 
as DH 2012 153  .730 647 575 71 138 22  1 24  71  3  0 64 190 .240 .323 .407  .730 234  12   7  0  1   5   1  .315   101    94
38   CHW 
as DH 2010 153  .728 644 566 75 140 24  3 18  65 11  8 65 113 .247 .332 .396  .728 224  15   8  2  3   3   6  .279    94    94
39   KCR 
as DH 2013  19  .724  82  67  8  16  2  0  2   8  1  1 13  12 .239 .366 .358  .724  24   2   1  0  1   2   0  .259   105    91
40   OAK 
as DH 2010 153  .724 639 552 70 136 30  1 15  74  4  2 75 172 .246 .338 .386  .724 213  15   5  0  7   1   4  .325   106    94
41   TBR 
as DH 2010 153  .713 641 558 67 133 32  1 17  97  7  2 66 150 .238 .322 .391  .713 218  10   6  4  6   1   4  .292    94    90
42   DET 
as DH 2010 153  .713 692 609 84 158 35  5  8  68  9  2 74 104 .259 .341 .373  .713 227   8   3  2  4   8   9  .299    92    92
43   TOR 
as DH 2010 153  .709 649 599 66 142 34  4 22  68  6  1 43 153 .237 .291 .417  .709 250   8   4  0  3   3   3  .281    85    87
44   CLE 
as DH 2012 153  .702 653 571 59 129 19  3 22  72  3  4 67 120 .226 .317 .385  .702 220  18  11  0  4   5   6  .247    99    87
45   LAA 
as DH 2011 153  .702 666 573 68 136 25  3 14  70 19  7 87 126 .237 .337 .365  .702 209  16   1  1  4   3   4  .279    98    86
46   OAK 
as DH 2011 153  .696 654 579 69 141 27  0 18  91  4  0 61 118 .244 .312 .383  .696 222  11   2  0 11   4   5  .271   104    82
47   LAA 
as DH 2010 153  .690 641 559 59 129 27  1 17  72  1  2 71 122 .231 .316 .374  .690 209  14   1  2  5   4   4  .264    98    84
48   DET 
as DH 2012 153  .687 642 602 61 155 27  4 16  70  5  1 28 113 .257 .291 .395  .687 238  23   4  0  8   2   7  .289    80    82
49   TBR 
as DH 2012 153  .685 644 580 69 132 25  2 23  84 10  1 47 146 .228 .289 .397  .685 230  21   7  0 10   5   4  .259    92    81
50   MIN 
as DH 2013  23  .674 101  90 14  20  7  0  2  11  0  1 10  21 .222 .307 .367  .674  33   1   1  0  0   0   0  .269   100    76
51   SEA 
as DH 2011 153  .650 635 558 48 126 29  2  9  57  4  3 69 180 .226 .317 .333  .650 186  12   6  1  1   8   1  .316   104    72
52   HOU 
as DH 2013  27  .639 115 102 13  22  3  2  2  11  0  0 12  42 .216 .296 .343  .639  35   0   0  0  1   0   0  .339    77    68
53   SEA 
as DH 2010 153  .609 644 582 55 113 20  1 21  60  6  1 55 169 .194 .269 .340  .609 198  13   5  1  1   2   1  .234    91    62
54   DET 
as DH 2013  25  .597 114 100  6  23  6  0  0  10  1  0 12  14 .230 .307 .290  .597  29   3   0  0  2   1   0  .261    58    58
55   SEA 
as DH 2012 153  .597 638 574 50 123 20  1 11  58  4  2 55 126 .214 .287 .310  .597 178  14   5  0  4   6   5  .254    81    60
56   BAL 
as DH 2013  27  .502 105  90  9  13  3  0  2   7  1  1 13  28 .144 .257 .244  .502  22   3   1  0  1   1   2  .180    35    33
57   TBR 
as DH 2013  26  .488 100  84  8  10  1  0  3   8  2  0 15  29 .119 .250 .238  .488  20   4   0  0  1   0   0  .132    42    29 


   4. yb125 Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4431156)
I almost took Dunn in my fantasy league, but some grabbed him before me so I had to wait a couple rounds and grab Berkman, so far that has worked out except he is so tied to the Astros in my mind I sometimes sit him because I do not see him in their lineup.
   5. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:10 PM (#4431159)
Leroy Stanton 1978 is pretty hard to beat...
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4431162)
Obviously that would be time consuming to do for each position...although you could set parameters if you are just looking for above a certain level. You can also sum a spread of years.

Here is a chart with the 14 al teams and their offensive performance at DH since 2010 sorted by ops.
Rk       I Split From   To   G OPS GS   PA   AB   R   H  2B 3B HR RBI SB CS  BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip
1      BOS 
as DH 2010 2013 485   .887 2111 1827 288 526 128  5 89 308 14  9 263 396 .288 .378 .510 .887 931  57   8  1 12  41   8  .323
2      NYY 
as DH 2010 2013 485   .813 2081 1835 266 489  87  3 91 287 20  6 212 437 .266 .347 .466 .813 855  47  19  4 11  16  16  .302
3      TEX 
as DH 2010 2013 483   .810 2098 1901 292 543 108  8 74 329 19 10 158 285 .286 .343 .468 .810 889  54  17  1 20  16  22  .300
4      KCR 
as DH 2010 2013 478   .800 2070 1839 236 517 107  3 65 278 16  4 190 342 .281 .352 .449 .800 825  53  20  2 18  27  11  .312
5      MIN 
as DH 2010 2013 482   .787 2057 1776 250 448  91  9 77 309 14  3 244 416 .252 .343 .444 .787 788  48  14  0 23  22  14  .284
6      BAL 
as DH 2010 2013 486   .762 2055 1846 232 482  87  5 73 233  8  5 171 406 .261 .329 .432 .762 798  47  23  2 13  17  16  .296
7      TOR 
as DH 2010 2013 486   .762 2056 1840 239 467  90  5 79 249 27  6 180 420 .254 .325 .437 .762 804  38  20  3 13  15  22  .287
8      CLE 
as DH 2010 2013 483   .760 2060 1820 228 455  97  6 72 252 11  7 197 436 .250 .332 .429 .760 780  40  31  1 11  21  13  .289
9      CHW 
as DH 2010 2013 481   .759 2059 1774 235 426  73  4 80 255 17 11 244 490 .240 .338 .421 .759 747  40  26  2 13  12  15  .284
10     OAK 
as DH 2010 2013 487   .744 2077 1809 240 450  94  4 63 267 17  5 227 484 .249 .334 .410 .744 741  36  17  1 22  12  17  .301
11     LAA 
as DH 2010 2013 482   .733 2068 1837 223 460  91  6 61 248 24  9 206 406 .250 .327 .406 .733 746  55   8  3 11  14  20  .289
12     DET 
as DH 2010 2013 484   .725 2100 1906 241 516 109  9 38 251 21  4 163 302 .271 .328 .397 .725 757  54   9  2 20  17  24  .301
13     TBR 
as DH 2010 2013 485   .705 2070 1842 227 436  92 10 61 266 37  9 179 429 .237 .308 .397 .705 731  42  20  5 23   7  19  .273
14     SEA 
as DH 2010 2013 488   .630 2044 1823 163 392  74  4 45 185 14  8 196 495 .215 .296 .334 .630 609  45  17  2  6  17   9  .269 
   7. Steve Treder Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4431175)
You go, Mariners!
   8. DA Baracus Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4431181)
That's a pretty good illustration of how teams use their DH. Tampa likes speedy guys (10 triples, 37 stolen bases), Minnesota has some TTO, Chicago puts lumbering swing for the fences guys in there and Seattle likes guys who can't hit.
   9. Steve Treder Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:32 PM (#4431184)
Ya gotta admit, Seattle's approach is the most innovative.
   10. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: May 01, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4431194)
Honestly, the first thing that comes to my mind with that chart is that David Ortiz is a boss.
   11. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: May 01, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4431223)
Honestly, the first thing that comes to my mind with that chart is that David Ortiz is a boss.


True dat.

How many people thought he'd be hitting like this four years after his 2009 season, when he looked pretty done.

As somebody who has seen him hit regularly over the years, I think the big differences between 2008-2009 and 2010-present is that he:

1) lost weight,
2) gets around on an inside fastball much better than he did in 08-09, and
3) he consistently is hitting the #### out of lefties.

Consider:

Career:
Vs RHP: .294/.397/.579
Vs. LHP: .268/.341/.482

Vs LHP:

2009: .212/.298/.418
2010: .222/.275/.324
2011: .329/.423/.566
2012: .320/.377/.608

Even during his great years between 2003-2008, he didn't hit lefties like this in most seasons. Growing up, Hal McRae was generally acknowledged as the greatest DH in the short history of the position. Then, Edgar Martinez. Ortiz had to be pretty high up in that conversation, yes?
   12. Steve Treder Posted: May 01, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4431230)
Hal McRae was generally acknowledged as the greatest DH in the short history of the position. Then, Edgar Martinez. Ortiz had to be pretty high up in that conversation, yes?

Absolutely.
   13. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: May 01, 2013 at 08:18 PM (#4431234)
Couldn't this just say 'isn't Adam Dunn the worst?'
   14. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: May 01, 2013 at 08:41 PM (#4431267)
Below is a chart of the worst OPS seasons in MLB history, for players with at least 450 plate appearances, and who accumulated at least half of them as a designated hitter. Dunn’s .569 OPS of 2011 ties him with Ted Simmons for the worst in history.

To be fair, Simmons also hit into 23 double plays to Dunn's 10... so Adam has that going for him.
   15. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 01, 2013 at 10:06 PM (#4431361)
Hal McRae was generally acknowledged as the greatest DH in the short history of the position. Then, Edgar Martinez. Ortiz had to be pretty high up in that conversation, yes?


yeah, Ortiz would be top 3 or 4. It depends how your rank Frank Thomas? DH or 1B?

Seattle's .630 OPS from the position over the period 2010-2013 is just inexcusable. How can an organisation be unable to find someone who can't hit better then that? If it's your light hitting SS or 2B with awesome defence, then you can accept it.
   16. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 01, 2013 at 10:06 PM (#4431362)
Obviously that would be time consuming to do for each position...although you could set parameters if you are just looking for above a certain level. You can also sum a spread of years.


Play Index recently added team batting (& pitching, I think) splits. Teams ranked by OPS at the DH position, lowest to highest, for teams with at least 500 PAs at DH (i.e., AL teams, 1973 - 2012) is here (I'm not sure if that shows up if you're not a PI subscriber - but you should really be a PI subscriber). Worst OPS for DH for a team-season in the 1988 Texas Rangers at .560 (.197/.257/.303).
   17. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4431367)
More like "Done-O-Meter", right?
   18. Dale Sams Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:07 PM (#4431404)
I would trade you Daniel Nava to be your DH....but he's too valuable to me now.
   19. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4431407)
Regarding Ortiz, I was definitely in the "stick a fork in him" camp. Happy to be proved wrong, though.

I second the suggestion from Bitter Calculus Instructor that Ortiz is indeed a boss, and the first thing that makes me think is that Edgar Martinez is his supervisor. I'm of the opinion that longterm DHing is not all that easy. I wouldn't knock Ortiz or Martinez or anyone similar very much for their lack of defensive value, at least not compared to the usual clunky first basemen.
   20. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:23 PM (#4431417)
Seattle's .630 OPS from the position over the period 2010-2013 is just inexcusable. How can an organisation be unable to find someone who can't hit better then that?

What if, instead of rotating Russ Branyan, Milton Bradley, Ken Griffey Jr., Mike Sweeney, Jose Lopez, Justin Smoak, Franklin Gutierrez, Matt Mangini, Casey Kotchman, Ichiro Suzuki, Mike Carp, Matt Tuiasosopo, Jack Cust, Wily Mo Pena, Adam Kennedy, Casper Wells, Dustin Ackley, Miguel Olivo, Trayvon Robinson, Carlos Peguero, Mike Wilson, John Jaso, Jesus Montero, Kyle Seager, Mike Morse, and Kendrys Morales through DH over that time, they had just given the job to Mike Morse?
   21. Steve Treder Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:28 PM (#4431418)
That would be way too complicated.
   22. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:33 PM (#4431423)
What if, instead of rotating Russ Branyan, Milton Bradley, Ken Griffey Jr., Mike Sweeney, Jose Lopez, Justin Smoak, Franklin Gutierrez, Matt Mangini, Casey Kotchman, Ichiro Suzuki, Mike Carp, Matt Tuiasosopo, Jack Cust, Wily Mo Pena, Adam Kennedy, Casper Wells, Dustin Ackley, Miguel Olivo, Trayvon Robinson, Carlos Peguero, Mike Wilson, John Jaso, Jesus Montero, Kyle Seager, Mike Morse, and Kendrys Morales through DH over that time, they had just given the job to Mike Morse?


Great. Now I can never watch another Mariner game again.
   23. Morty Causa Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4431436)
Hal McRae was generally acknowledged as the greatest DH in the short history of the position. Then, Edgar Martinez. Ortiz had to be pretty high up in that conversation, yes?

Is there a trick to this? Why is McRae better than Edgar? Or Ortiz, for that matter?
   24. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 01, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4431437)
Before Edgar Martinez, Hal McRae was acknowledged as the greatest DH. Then Edgar Martinez came along and replaced him. Now we have Ortiz.
   25. Walt Davis Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:09 AM (#4431443)
Let us not forget the fabulous end to Jose Vidro's respectable career: 234/274/338 in 330 PA as Seattle's DH.

It's probably one of those curse things -- they got several years of Edgar now the universe is just balancing out. 15 years from now we'll be talking about Seattle DH like we talked about Cubs 3B after Santo (until ARam ... well, and Madlock always got short shrift, not his fault the Cubs traded him).

There are only 8 guys with at least 1000 games at DH. Among the bottom 5, there's nothing really to choose one over the other besides playing time at the position. The top 3 (by overall career OPS+) are Thomas, Edgar, Ortiz well ahead of the pack. Edgar should beat Thomas here on DH performance, possibly Ortiz beats Thomas too.

Oh, the bottom 5 are McRae, Molitor, Baines, Davis and Baylor with career OPS+ in the 118-123 range so really very little to choose from. I would guess that Molitor wins on the DH split and he also had some defensive utility up until the end.

   26. Dan Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4431444)
To be fair, Simmons also hit into 23 double plays to Dunn's 10... so Adam has that going for him.


Well, it's hard to hit into DPs when you never put the ball in play, so that virtue of Dunn's shouldn't go away anytime soon.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4431447)
Is there a trick to this? Why is McRae better than Edgar? Or Ortiz, for that matter


As Crispix notes, you were reading the "then" as referring to Edgar's place in the hierarchy, rather than referring to him taking his place chronologically on the greatest DH list.
   28. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4431461)
Ya gotta admit, Seattle's approach is the most innovative.


This made me laugh.
   29. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4431472)
.215 .296 .334 .630


The mocking has been top-notch, but I still needed to see Seattle's DH line again.

That's in nearly 500 games. You'd have figured that SOMEONE would have looked at that at
some point during the last three years and decided that there are at least 100 guys in AAA
who could reliably beat that line, who could be gotten
cheaply, and maybe, just maybe, the club ought to trade the required bag of balls for that guy.
   30. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 02, 2013 at 01:42 AM (#4431482)
Eh, for all the guffawing over Ortiz though, in that 2010-2103 period he's leading, LEADING entire teams of DHs in GIDP and to top it off he's not getting hit by enough pitches. Effing slacker....
   31. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2013 at 01:45 AM (#4431483)
Regarding Ortiz, I was definitely in the "stick a fork in him" camp.


You were close. It wasn't a fork, it was a needle. Milkshakes only get you so far.
   32. madvillain Posted: May 02, 2013 at 02:55 AM (#4431492)
Yes, next question.
   33. Sunday silence Posted: May 02, 2013 at 03:40 AM (#4431495)
considering modern roster compositions, wouldnt it be a natural progression to find some relief pitchers who could also hit a little? Gawd knows there are pitchers out there with better slash lines than some of the ones I see above.
   34. Dan Posted: May 02, 2013 at 03:50 AM (#4431497)
Seattle's DH performance is less surprising to me than Tampa Bay's. For a team with such a smart front office, they've done a pretty terrible job getting production out of the DH slot over the past several years. Sure, they're significantly ahead of Seattle with a .705 OPS from their DHs collectively, but that's still well behind anyone else. And while a .237/.308/.397 line isn't quite as bad as the raw numbers seem when you account for their stadium, it's still well below average. And in 2012-13, they've had a sub .700 OPS from the position, so they aren't even getting any better there.
   35. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: May 02, 2013 at 04:57 AM (#4431504)
34: plus, DH has to be the easiest slot to fill. Since the Rays are smart, and since I'm too lazy to actually study the issue, is it possible they decided to punt the position in favor of having a spot to rotate various players through when they needed rest? I don't think it was beyond them to find a guy for the minimum who simply can't take the field. Say, Lucas Duda, if the Mets weren't preposterously desperate for OFers.

Duda, career, 998 PAs:

oWAR, 2010-2013, 3.2
dWAR, 2010-2013, -4.8


Go Mets!

   36. bjhanke Posted: May 02, 2013 at 06:19 AM (#4431512)
Ooog. When you can't hit better than an elderly catcher whose knees are completely gone, you're bad. What I've always wondered about Dunn was whether he closes his eyes when he swings. That's not meant entirely as a joke. I've seen people stick fighting who always close their eyes just before they swing, just as a reflex mechanism. Dunn always swings as hard as he can, misses a huge number of pitches, apparently doesn't know that many of them are even on the way and just ignores them, but when his random swing does find the ball, it's Cream of Horsehide. - Brock Hanke
   37. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: May 02, 2013 at 07:11 AM (#4431520)
Terry Harper (80s Braves) always closed his eyes when he swung. Drove me nuts. Now he's a hitting coach. Go figure.
   38. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 02, 2013 at 08:36 AM (#4431554)
Seattle's DH performance is less surprising to me than Tampa Bay's. For a team with such a smart front office, they've done a pretty terrible job getting production out of the DH slot over the past several years. Sure, they're significantly ahead of Seattle with a .705 OPS from their DHs collectively, but that's still well behind anyone else. And while a .237/.308/.397 line isn't quite as bad as the raw numbers seem when you account for their stadium, it's still well below average. And in 2012-13, they've had a sub .700 OPS from the position, so they aren't even getting any better there.


Is there any evidence that Seattle has a smart front office? They certainly aren't getting anything in the way of results to support that claim and I don't see anything that makes me think the results are going to improve.
   39. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2013 at 09:33 AM (#4431580)
I've seen people stick fighting who always close their eyes just before they swing, just as a reflex mechanism.


Anyone who stickfights without a mask on is a moron.
   40. BDC Posted: May 02, 2013 at 09:34 AM (#4431581)
My impression from watching Dunn last night is that when you can't hit the other way against the shift, and you're so slow you get thrown out on ground balls to right field, it may be time to think about an alternative career.
   41. DL from MN Posted: May 02, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4431753)
JIM THOME IS AT HOME SITTING ON HIS COUCH.
   42. Bug Selig Posted: May 02, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4431761)
Is there any evidence that Seattle has a smart front office?


The "smart front office" was referring to Tampa, not Seattle.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: May 02, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4431766)
Is there any evidence that Seattle has a smart front office? They certainly aren't getting anything in the way of results to support that claim and I don't see anything that makes me think the results are going to improve.


None at all. Outside of the state of the art gym they got.
   44. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: May 02, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4431788)
You go, Mariners!

Yeah, my first response on reading the heading was that surely the mariners have had worse production. I guess their terribleness doesn't count though, since they're not just using one roster spot for a terrible DH, they're taking up multiple.
   45. bjhanke Posted: May 02, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4431897)
YR (#39) - You are completely right. The form of stick fighting I did was something called the Society for Creative Anachronism, or SCA. We use "swords" made out of 1 1/4 inch furniture rattan, which is why my short definition of what I did is "stickfighting." But you have to wear armor in the SCA. The current rule is 16 gauge steel or better in the helmet, elbow cops, knee cops, and neck and throat protection and your hand gauntlets. Almost everyone wears some form of body armor where it's not required. I managed to do 27 years of this, being good enough to lose Crown Tourmament (we choose our kings by combat) twice in the finals and made the semifinals 6 more times. I never had a broken bone. The worst injury I had was, before we started requiring 16 gauge steel on the hands, somebody hit me just right, and pulled my thumbnail off. Hurt like hell, blood everywhere, but when I got to my friend the paramedic, we just agreed to put the nail back in place and slap a band-aid on it. 27 years. Worst injury required a band aid. You can come do this with us, without being a moron. But without that helmet, you're right. It would be insane. - Brock
   46. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 02, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4431912)
That's in nearly 500 games. You'd have figured that SOMEONE would have looked at that at
some point during the last three years and decided that there are at least 100 guys in AAA
who could reliably beat that line, who could be gotten
cheaply, and maybe, just maybe, the club ought to trade the required bag of balls for that guy.


They had a cheap AAAAer who could reliably beat that line: 119 MLB OPS+ from 2009 to 2013, of course that's in just 635 MLB PAs, it was apparently more important that he get 1200+ minor league PAs during that same time period evidently. (to be fair to Seattle Carp was hurt most of 2012)
Also despite being a born DH when he did play, Seattle had him attempt to play ain the field
   47. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 02, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4431917)
What if, instead of rotating...they had just given the job to Mike Morse?


There's that, but then again Morse can play passable Dee (compared to Carp)
They should have stuck Morse in the OF, Carp at DH and been done with it.
   48. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: May 02, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4431948)
Yes--exactly! I thought I remembered Carp from his time in the Mets system. AND, he did his best hitting for the Mariners when they gave him the most PAs. A born DH, he was. The lynchpin (ahem) of the deal that brought JJ Putz East.

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