I'll be a paranoid Cards fan - don't you only sell your 3 year asset for a one year asset if you think you're not going to be able to re-sign Pujols?

Setting aside all rational concerns regarding TLR vs Rasmus, etc. That certainly isn't a rational concern. Will Rasmus surpass Rolen as the best ex-Card, in terms of post StL production, that TLR ran out of town?

So Dotel's the closer now?

Why does anyone have a problem with Fernando Salas as the closer???

19 saves in 22 tries, sub-1.00 WHIP, better than a K per inning, better than a 4-to-1 K/BB ratio, batters are hitting .186/.246/.316 against him...

He's young, he's cheap, and best of all, he's good....Can someone tell me what the problem is?????

I'll be a paranoid Cards fan - don't you only sell your 3 year asset for a one year asset if you think you're not going to be able to re-sign Pujols?

The counter to that is Jackson's coming off the books, freeing up money to re-sign Pujols.

A Shane at Batters Box pointed out,

"Tony La Russa's sunny disposition brought about a Scott Rolen trade to Toronto, now Rasmus. And Scott Rolen brought Zack Stewart, who helped bring in Rasmus."

I'll be a paranoid Cards fan - don't you only sell your 3 year asset for a one year asset if you think you're not going to be able to re-sign Pujols

I don't see it as that way. From an optimistic point of view, Rasmus was going to start demanding a long term contract in the next two seasons, by getting rid of him they freed up money for Pujols in the future. Considering that Holliday has already publically stated he is willing to renegotiate his contract to free up money for Pujols, and that this didn't net a starting pitcher that is signed for another season it helps clear up potential payroll issues. Especially if they think alphabet could become a starter next season.

That is about as much optimism as I could muster. Actually as I said before I actually have gone from hating our bullpen to mildly giddy about it.
The Cardinals have Salas as a closer, Dotel and McClellan now slot into the seventh and eighth inning roles, with Rzepczynski becoming the primary lefty specialist, and Lynn and Boggs in waiting and Valdes as the backup lefty. Lynn needs to get his head on straight, but for one inning he's probably better than either Dotel or McClellan, just has mental breakdowns it seems.

Salas already has 1.5 WAR this year. The last time Dotel put together a season that good, he was still on the Astros and neither the Red Sox nor White Sox had won a World Series in a billion years. I don't think there's too much danger of Octavio and his 90-mph fastball taking over as closer.

He's young, he's cheap, and best of all, he's good....Can someone tell me what the problem is?????

He's not 900 years old, and TLR doesn't trust closers without that particular qualification.

He's not 900 years old, and TLR doesn't trust closers without that particular qualification

He's been trying to trust them for years. He put Motte in as a closer and he failed, he put Sanchez in as a closer and he failed, previously he put Perez in as a closer and he failed, he put Wainwright in as a closer, he succeeded. There is no trend stating that TLR doesn't trust young pitchers to close, he has a short leash with them and a long leash with the guys getting the bigger paycheck and years of success, but that is to be expected in the critical role of closer to some extent.

A Shane at Batters Box pointed out,

"Tony La Russa's sunny disposition brought about a Scott Rolen trade to Toronto, now Rasmus. And Scott Rolen brought Zack Stewart, who helped bring in Rasmus."

I also want to bring up John Bale, an AAAA pitcher originally drafted by Toronto who's been bouncing around the majors since '99.

Toronto traded Bale straight up for Jayson Werth.

Then they traded Werth for Jason Frasor.

Then Frasor pitched in more games than any other Blue Jay has over a career.

Now Frasor has been turned into part of Rasmus/Teahen/Walters/Tallet.

It's the circle of life.

The Cards are also apparently getting 3 PTBNL in the deal.

The Cards are also apparently getting 3 PTBNL in the deal.

Really what is the source for this. Not that I doubt you, but it does make a little more sense even if all three of them are nobodies.

He's been trying to trust them for years.

I don't think that's TLR "trying to trust them" as much as TLR grudgingly using them when he felt he had no other choice, like a kid confronted with a plate full of Brussels sprouts.

Really what is the source for this. Not that I doubt you, but it does make a little more sense even if all three of them are nobodies.

I read it in the press release about the deal on Toronto's web site.

That said, it was "three players to be named later or cash", which suggests that none of the three are particularly significant.

So what, it's John Jay now as full-time CF?

Mo didn't trade Rasmus for Corey Patterson for his health, y'know.

Supposedly the Rays offered either Wade Davis, Alex Cobb or Jeff Niemann for Rasmus but were turned down.

I don't think that's TLR "trying to trust them" as much as TLR grudgingly using them when he felt he had no other choice, like a kid confronted with a plate full of Brussels sprouts.

I think you are projecting your personal view on TLR's reputation into TLR's actions. He hasn't recently had a problem playing youngsters regardless of what the press and fans try to project onto him. He played Yadier as a starting catcher, he played Colby in more games than any Cardinal except Pujols and Holliday last year and Pujols and Skip the year before that. He likes to rest his players, always had so when he rests his young stars the press and fans act like he is doing it because he hates youth, it's not, it's because he likes having a good bench that isn't rusty or stressing out about playing time issues.

Like many managers he prefers established talent over youth for bench roles, but he hasn't shied away from playing Descalso, Jay(except in deference to Colby) or even Greene(who failed in multiple tries). The Cardinals starting lineup is 1b Pujols(a youngster who TLR gave a starting job to at 21 years old) 2b Schumaker(a youngster who TLR liked enough but realized that he wasn't going to provide enough offense to be a starting outfielder so he moved him) SS Theriot(who may not be the starter in a month as Descalso has shown he can play shortstop just as well) 3b Freese (another youngster TLR gave a job to) LF Berkman, CF Jay(was Rasmus) an old youngster who has won a starting job even though every expert says he isn't starting material. RF Holliday.

SP Carpenter, McClellan(a guy who TLR gave the primary setup role as a rookie), Garcia(another rookie starter who was handled with kid gloves, but no one has supported him more than Duncan and TLR), Westbrook, and Lohse...

Motte and Salas were both given opportunities when they had proven they could handle the job, in Mottes case he was given opportunity to be a closer long before he had proven anything.

I'm not seeing this hatred of youth that TLR supposedly has.

Great deal for the Jays, obviously. Davis-as-CF/sparkplug failed, Paterson flamed out after a nice, white-hot start, and now they're really well-set in the OF/DH for the next couple of years.

So do the Cards go with a 13 man pen or do they send one of Motte/Lynn down? Or do they send Valdes down (my preference)? Really, all the right handed relievers have pitched well this year.

Sending down Valdes would make the most sense--with McClellan back in the pen, they can probably get by with one lefty reliever. Which means they'll probably find a way to screw it up.

Hopefully Valdes gets sent down, McClellan is pretty good against lefties, to the point that he has a reverse platoon split.

I guess the team currently looks like this
SP Carpenter, Westbrook, Garcia, Lohse, Jackson
RP Salas, McClellan, Motte, Lynn, Dotel, Rzepczynski, Boggs,

C Laird, Cruz, Molina
If Pujols, Schumaker, Descalso, Theriot, Freese, Punto.
OF Holliday, Berkman, Jay, Patterson......(Schumaker is the fifth outfielder)

It looks like Craig is going to languish in the minors for a while..

He's been trying to trust them for years. He put Motte in as a closer and he failed

Yes, in the second game of the year in 2010 Motte gave up the lead when he entered a tie game in the 9th inning. That was his chance, and he blew it. And it wasn't even technically a save situation since the game was tied.

But that was his chance to be the 9th inning guy, and he blew it.

By my count, he's only had one actual 9th inning save opportunity since then: Game 68 of 2010, June 19th, and he converted the save.

I think you are projecting your personal view on TLR's reputation into TLR's actions. He hasn't recently had a problem playing youngsters regardless of what the press and fans try to project onto him.

I didn't say he had a problem "playing youngsters". I said that he would use all available veteran alternatives in high-leverage relief situations, grudgingly turning to young and inexperienced relief arms only when he had no other choice. Which is pretty much how things have been with him, even before he came to St. Louis.

The fact that you vehemently denied he had a problem "playing youngsters" before I suggested any such thing is, in and of itself, kind of an interesting tell.

This trade will likely never look better for Toronto than it does today. Guys with attitude problems are always far more attractive before you've dealt with them day in and day out. I'm not saying it's a bad deal for Toronto by any means, but let's see how Jays fan feel about him in a year.

It looks like Craig is going to languish in the minors for a while..

This would make me almost as mad as today's trade. Send Cruz down to get some playing time. Tell Laird thanks for his service. Cut Patterson. Cut Theriot. Hell, send a reliever down. But you need Craig's bat.

So nice I said it twice.

Yes, in the second game of the year in 2010 Motte gave up the lead when he entered a tie game in the 9th inning. That was his chance, and he blew it. And it wasn't even technically a save situation since the game was tied.

But that was his chance to be the 9th inning guy, and he blew it.

By my count, he's only had one actual 9th inning save opportunity since then: Game 68 of 2010, June 19th, and he converted the save.

It was 2009. And TLR replaced him with Ryan Franklin, who made the AS team and was lights out all year (1.92 ERA, 38 SV).

TLR's current closer, of course, is the geriatric 26-year-old Fernando Salas who never saved a MLB game prior to this season.

The fact that you vehemently denied he had a problem "playing youngsters" before I suggested any such thing is, in and of itself, kind of an interesting tell.

Because I'm tired of people casting their perception of TLR on his actions when there is tons of evidence backing up their incorrect comments. It's ridiculous how much people hold onto outmoded perceptions when it comes to TLR and still react on them based upon their own bias's and prejudices.

Yes, in the second game of the year in 2010 Motte gave up the lead when he entered a tie game in the 9th inning. That was his chance, and he blew it. And it wasn't even technically a save situation since the game was tied.

Motte was given a chance in 2009 out of the gate he was the teams first choice to close the game, got hit pretty hard which is what the book on him was that he's a flat fastball pitcher. TLR got gunshy as Mottes second appearance also didn't fare too well, he was basically throwing fast beach balls. Franklin eventually wins the job as closer.

2010 had nothing to do with Motte, Franklin was the closer. You don't lose the role unless you start sucking. As to his chances this year he's come into a 1-0 game(we were losing) in the top of the ninth with two men on and proceeded to allow a two run triple. And has come into multiple close games to just basically pour gasoline on the situation. Meanwhile Sanchez and Salas and Boggs were all given chances to close.

This trade will likely never look better for Toronto than it does today. Guys with attitude problems are always far more attractive before you've dealt with them day in and day out. I'm not saying it's a bad deal for Toronto by any means, but let's see how Jays fan feel about him in a year.

These exact sentences could have been written after the Yunel Escobar trade.

It was 2009. And TLR replaced him with Ryan Franklin, who made the AS team and was lights out all year (1.92 ERA, 38 SV).

You're right (as is Cardsfanboy). He got rocked on Opening Day of 2009, then was shaky in his next save situation (he exited without blowing the lead but having put two men on), and has had exactly one 9th-inning save opportunity in the 2-1/2 years since (which he converted).

It's ridiculous how much people hold onto outmoded perceptions when it comes to TLR and still react on them based upon their own bias's and prejudices.

This thing where they had to trade Rasmus because he and La Russa didn't get along? That just happened today. You're getting that, right?

Ah, but I'm sure you'll be able to devote a few hundred more posts to explaining how it's 100% Mozeliak's fault when the manager drives down a player's value, puts the team in a position where they have no choice but to trade him, and then Mozeliak ends up not getting much for him.

How did LaRussa drive down Rasmus's value? Everybody knows what his ability is. The fact that the manager doesn't play him or doesn't like him doesn't keep other GMs from wanting to get him if he's available.

The reason this is such a bad trade is that if the Cardinals wanted to trade him, they could have gotten much more than they got--at least probably a pitcher as good as Edwin Jackson who's cost controlled for a little while.

This would make me almost as mad as today's trade. Send Cruz down to get some playing time. Tell Laird thanks for his service. Cut Patterson. Cut Theriot. Hell, send a reliever down. But you need Craig's bat.

This. There's no excuse for leaving Craig in the minors for one second after his knee is healed.

This thing where they had to trade Rasmus because he and La Russa didn't get along? That just happened today. You're getting that, right?

Nope it happened over the course of a couple of seasons,(the interview happened before yesterdays game in which Colby started in) and TLR has worked around it. Colby has appeared in more games than any Cardinal except Albert Pujols in the past three years, it's not like he has been benched even while not getting along with TLR and other players.

TLR didn't drive the trade value down, Mo did a horrible job of getting the best bang for his buck. Mind you he ultimately did a good job for fixing holes in the roster for this season with the trade, but long term it's a bad trade, that Mo could have done a better job at. Heck if he wouldn't have pulled a whiny ##### he could have had one of the Rays pitchers, a reliever and one of their prospects, but because he would only entertain offers which included either Shields or Hellickson, he dropped out of acquiring Nieman/Davis or Cobb.

2010 had nothing to do with Motte, Franklin was the closer. You don't lose the role unless you start sucking

Or in the case of Franklin, until well after you start sucking, apparently. Particularly if the alterantives are young and relatively unproven.

Or in the case of Franklin, until well after you start sucking, apparently. Particularly if the alterantives are young and relatively unproven.

In the case of every established closer in baseball history.(how many blown saves do guys like K-rod, Fuentes, Lidge get in a season in which they aren't outstanding?) It's not like the youngsters did any better...Salas was the fourth replacment for Franklin behind Boggs, Sanchez, and Batista(and the only established veteran was given the fewest amount of chances) Heck Sanchez damn near singlehandedly confirmed the thesis that "closing isn't the same thing as pitching the 8th inning"

Batista(and the only established veteran was given the fewest amount of chances)

The shocking part isn't that he was given the lowest amount of chances - it's that he was given a chance at the job at all. He's nine hundred years old* and has had an ERA under 4 exactly twice in the last ten years.

*An exaggeration, but only a slight one - Bautista and Tim Wakefield (and OK, Jim Leyland) the only remaining active members of the 1992 Pirates division winner.