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Monday, April 22, 2019

Is this the craziest double play ever? Maybe!

A’s center fielder Ramón Laureano has added to his superb defensive reputation with a handful of astonishing plays this season, but Sunday’s tops them all.

Jim Furtado Posted: April 22, 2019 at 09:54 AM | 32 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, ramon laureano

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   1. drjohnnyfever Posted: April 22, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5834079)
On the basis of just being "crazy", the "craziest" was in Game 3 of the 1992 World Series because out #2 was due to the trailing baserunner (thinking White wouldn't catch the fly ball) passing the lead baserunner (who thought it was possible White would make the catch). Spectacular catch + rare baserunning gaff = craziest.

Of course, if replay had been a thing in 1992, it would have been a triple play :)
   2. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: April 22, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5834082)
Was the wind blowing out? That ball looked like it had no business getting over the fence anyway.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5834098)
I'd rank the Fisk double play where he tagged out two Yankee runners at the plate in succession higher.

   4. drjohnnyfever Posted: April 22, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5834101)
I see your Fisk double play, and raise you Buck Martinez tagging out two Mariner runners at the plate in succession while breaking his leg in between the putouts.
   5. karlmagnus Posted: April 22, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5834102)
I don't think any of these rank with Manny's in Baltimore in 2008, where he high-fived a spectator in between the two outs.
   6. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 22, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5834104)
How about Prince Fielder flopping to the ground against the Red Sox in the 2013 ALCS? That was quite the double play.
   7. The Duke Posted: April 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5834121)
the manny play certainly qualifies as highest entertainment value
   8. Greg Pope Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:03 PM (#5834139)
I don't recall seeing any of the mentioned plays before, so I looked them up.

The Manny one is fun, but not really crazy.

The Fisk one had my vote after I watched it.

But then I saw the Martinez one and that has to take it. I mean, it's not like he tagged out two guys in succession sandwiched by the broken leg. He gets clobbered and then while in obvious pain he throws to third. Instead of then collapsing, he still pays attention and somehow takes a return throw and tags out the next guy. Then gets carried off the field.

At least I think that's what happened. The clip shows a fan twice for some reason so I'm not completely sure what transpired.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the play in the posted article isn't crazy at all. It has a great catch, but nothing else extraordinary.
   9. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5834145)
The Buck Martinez one is truly one for the ages - he sustains the injury making the first putout...then is totally out on his back...then figures out there's a guy taking off for third base and makes a poor throw (can you blame him?)...then get the return throw and makes the tag...then gets carried off on a stretcher?

Holy ####.

BTW: Just asking...is it clear that the second half of the double play from this weekend is the right call? The tag was a little high going into second base, and it's a bang-bang play...
   10. PreservedFish Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5834146)
It has a great catch, but nothing else extraordinary.


Did you stop watching after the catch? Laureano made an extraordinary terrible throw, Hundley makes an extraordinary Jeter-style intuition/hustle/jump-throw play in full body armor, to catch the extraordinarily slow Smoak.
   11. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5834150)
Back in my Babe Ruth League days I have done the one in the posted article. In fairness I didn't make the catch at the wall, as we played on a field that didn't have an outfield wall. But I followed the catch with the same throw from CF. Oh, and we also didn't have a wall in infield foul territory, either, nor did we have as much foul territory between the diamond and the forest. So the throw sailed off into the woods for a 2-base error instead of a double play. But essentially the same thing.
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5834153)
But then I saw the Martinez one and that has to take it. I mean, it's not like he tagged out two guys in succession sandwiched by the broken leg. He gets clobbered and then while in obvious pain he throws to third. Instead of then collapsing, he still pays attention and somehow takes a return throw and tags out the next guy. Then gets carried off the field.


That's a great one. And it starts with the craziness of Phil Bradley trying to score from second on a single to JESSE BARFIELD. And ends with the invalid version of Gorman Thomas trying to score.

to catch the extraordinarily slow Smoak.


Maybe. The ball beat him by forever, but I watched it repeatedly and never could figure out if he was tagged before reaching second.

Edit: Didn't notice Balboni's BTW.
   13. base ball chick Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5834157)
that's the first time i have seen laureano make a terrible throw like that
   14. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 22, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5834164)
entertainment value


For comedy, there was the time the Pirates got in a rundown, ended up with two guys on third. Yadier Molina correctly tagged out the trailing runner, whereupon the lead runner just walked off the bag, too, and was also tagged.
   15. Lassus Posted: April 22, 2019 at 02:01 PM (#5834169)
I know losing the game totally ruined it, but the Endy home-run-saving DP during the 2006 playoffs against the Cardinals was hard to top.
   16. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: April 22, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5834173)
For comedy, there was the time the Pirates got in a rundown, ended up with two guys on third. Yadier Molina correctly tagged out the trailing runner, whereupon the lead runner just walked off the bag, too, and was also tagged.

I mean, if you're going for comedy, it's hard to beat Babe Herman and the Brooklyn Dodgers having three players on the same base.
   17. Itchy Row Posted: April 22, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5834181)
It seems like a mistake, but according to the PBP on both Retrosheet and baseball-reference, Buck Martinez stayed in the game for another hitter after that play. The double play ended the bottom of the third. Martinez didn't come up in the top of the fourth, and both sites say Ernie Whitt replaced him AFTER Al Cowens flied out leading off the bottom of the fourth.
   18. BrianBrianson Posted: April 22, 2019 at 02:38 PM (#5834190)
Whoa, how you gonna link all the plays except the Devon White one.

Am I biased, having watched it as a 10 year old Toronto boy? Well, yeah.
   19. A triple short of the cycle Posted: April 22, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5834195)
Regarding this most recent play involving Laureano - the A's radio crew (can't remember who specifically) said that it was not an "official double play" because Laureano did not get the assist... is that right? I would think any time the defense records two outs on one play, it's a double play by definition.
   20. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5834199)
Regarding this most recent play involving Laureano - the A's radio crew (can't remember who specifically) said that it was not an "official double play" because Laureano did not get the assist... is that right? I would think any time the defense records two outs on one play, it's a double play by definition.


That doesn't make sense. unassisted DPs happen all the time.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5834203)

Regarding this most recent play involving Laureano - the A's radio crew (can't remember who specifically) said that it was not an "official double play" because Laureano did not get the assist... is that right? I would think any time the defense records two outs on one play, it's a double play by definition.


It's not listed as a DP on the box at BBRef. I'm not sure what the reasoning is. I guess if it's deemed that a player tried to advance only as a result of a would-be error, it rules out DP.
   22. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5834204)
is that right? I would think any time the defense records two outs on one play, it's a double play by definition.


I don't know about this play, but if there's a misplay between the two outs, then it's not recorded as an official DP. But I don't know if that requires an actual error - which there wouldn't have been on the Laureano play. And, for what it's worth, if the Laureano play isn't a DP because of this, then the Buck Martinez play probably shouldn't be either as the second out was essentially set up the same way - baserunner is out trying to advance on what would have been a throwing error if he had been safe.
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5834206)
And, for what it's worth, if the Laureano play isn't a DP because of this, then the Buck Martinez play probably shouldn't be either as the second out was essentially set up the same way - baserunner is out trying to advance on what would have been a throwing error if he had been safe.


I thought the same thing, but the Buck play is listed as a DP.
   24. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:15 PM (#5834212)
9.11 Double and Triple Plays
The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.
Rule 9.11 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a double play or triple play also if an appeal play after the ball is in possession of the pitcher results in an additional putout.


The overthrow is an intervening misplay. And if it wasn't clear from Rule 9.11, then Rule 9.10(b)(3) makes it even more clear.

9.10 Assists
An assist is a statistic credited to a fielder whose action contributes to a batter-runner or runner being put out, as set forth in this Rule 9.10.
(a) The official scorer shall credit an assist to each fielder who
(1) throws or deflects a batted or thrown ball in such a way that a putout results, or would have resulted except for a subsequent error by any fielder. Only one assist and no more shall be credited to each fielder who throws or deflects the ball in a run-down play that results in a putout, or would have resulted in a putout, except for a subsequent error; or
Rule 9.10(a)(1) Comment: Mere ineffective contact with the ball shall not be considered an assist. “Deflect” shall mean to slow down or change the direction of the ball and thereby effectively assist in putting out a batter or runner. If a putout results from an appeal play within the natural course of play, the official scorer shall give assists to each fielder, except the fielder making the putout, whose action led to the putout. If a putout results from an appeal play initiated by the pitcher throwing to a fielder after the previous play has ended, the official scorer shall credit the pitcher, and only the pitcher, with an assist.

(2) throws or deflects the ball during a play that results in a runner being called out for interference or for running out of line.
(b) The official scorer shall not credit an assist to
(1) the pitcher on a strikeout, unless the pitcher fields an uncaught third strike and makes a throw that results in a putout;
(2) the pitcher when, as the result of a legal pitch received by the catcher, a runner is put out, as when the catcher picks a runner off base, throws out a runner trying to steal or tags a runner trying to score; or
(3) a fielder whose wild throw permits a runner to advance, even though the runner subsequently is put out as a result of continuous play. A play that follows a misplay (whether or not the misplay is an error) is a new play, and the fielder making any misplay shall not be credited with an assist unless such fielder takes part in the new play.
   25. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5834214)
I think the amazing part of Laureano's throw is that he had the strength to over throw first base on the fly from the warning track (with just a crow hop before the throw).

#17: I think that might simply be a case where the official scorer didn't notice Whitt came in and marked it then, but no one corrected the score card. Martinez didn't play another game that season. He most certainly did not limp out onto the field for one batter.

Among old-timer Jays fans, the Buck Martinez play is the second most revered defensive play in team history, behind the Devon White World Series catch.

   26. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:18 PM (#5834216)
It seems like a mistake, but according to the PBP on both Retrosheet and baseball-reference, Buck Martinez stayed in the game for another hitter after that play. The double play ended the bottom of the third. Martinez didn't come up in the top of the fourth, and both sites say Ernie Whitt replaced him AFTER Al Cowens flied out leading off the bottom of the fourth.


I e-mailed Dave Smith about this. He remembers the play and is pretty sure that's a mistake in Retrosheet's play-by-play, which he fixed (it probably won't get revised on the website until Retrosheet does its semi-annual update in June). I'm pretty sure that Baseball-Reference gets its play-by-plays from Retrosheet, so I don't think that's an independent error on their part.
   27. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5834218)
Thanks for quoting the rules in #24, vi. Per the bolded second part, I think calling the Buck Martinez play a double play is probably technically incorrect. Although I understand the official scorer at that game wanting to give Buck Martinez as much credit as possible for that play, which was absolutely well deserved by him.
   28. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2019 at 03:22 PM (#5834219)
In short, the Laureano play was not a double play, but the A's radio crew were wrong about the reason. The Buck play probably shouldn't have been scored as a double play given the intervening misplay, but if the guy broke his leg in between putouts I'm willing to cut him some slack.
   29. oscarmadisox Posted: April 22, 2019 at 04:02 PM (#5834232)
Of course, the Devon White play was not a double play either. It was a triple play, with a blown call by the umpire.

   30. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: April 22, 2019 at 05:24 PM (#5834258)
Was the Devon White play even a double play, then? There was no 'intervening misplay' but there was no play at all; the baserunner ran himself into the out procedurally. Surely it's an F8 and a... ROOTBLAN, which from a scoring perspective are absolutely discrete events?
   31. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2019 at 05:40 PM (#5834259)
Note that the rules I cited were the current ones, and not the ones from 1985 when Martinez made his play. It is possible the play would have been counted as a double play under the 1985 rules, even if not counted today.

The rules from 1997 are consistent with today's rules, regarding double plays and assists. They differ in esoteric ways, but that's about it. That's as far back as I can get.

Incidentally, in doing the Wayback search I was reminded of the fine law firm of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP, holders of the mlb.com domain for about 5 years while MLB had to settle for the easily-typed www.majorleaguebaseball.com. Ah, the good old days.
   32. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 22, 2019 at 08:58 PM (#5834281)
And ends with the invalid version of Gorman Thomas trying to score.
For emphasis.

Part of me wonders if he was rubbernecking at Martinez and his injured leg on the ground, and was oblivious to the possibility that Martinez was about to field a throw. Of course the easy answer is, it's an aged Gorman Thomas.

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