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Tuesday, September 04, 2018

Jacob deGrom posts new MLB mark for consecutive games allowing 3 runs or fewer

Can you imagine what the reactions would be if he were playing on a remotely competent team?

The New York Mets ace went into Monday’s start against the Los Angeles Dodgers with a 1.68 ERA, .978 WHIP, 224 strikeouts and 41 walks allowed in 182 innings pitched.

He left having pitched another gem, allowing two hits, and one earned run with six strikeouts in six innings pitched. And a place in the MLB history books.

The outing means deGrom is the first MLB pitcher to complete 25 straight starts allowing three runs or fewer, a record that dates back to 2013.

QLE Posted: September 04, 2018 at 08:00 AM | 50 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jacob degrom, mets being mets, mets let him down, records

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   1. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5738136)
Man, that's a stupid error in the article, the record dated back to 1913 as started by the very tweet the article cited.

deGrom is the best pitcher in baseball. Don't @ me.
   2. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5738140)
He's 6-8 in that time. Clearly not a winner.
   3. bobm Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5738144)
PA pitched with a lead of 1, 0, or -1 runs, 2018:

deGrom: 574/734 (78%)

Nola: 502/710 (71%)

Scherzer: 432/752 (57%)




   4. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5738186)
Surprised a bit that this is a record. Checked Bob Gibson 1968 of course and he didn't have a 25 game streak like this, his best was 19 games. He also had this stretch of 10 starts:

6-6 to 7-25

90 innings, 51 hits, 0 HR, 12 BB, 75 K, 2 runs (both earned), 0.20 ERA

That's a full half season of work for a modern starter.
   5. OCF Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5738189)
I had to look back at Bob Gibson 1968.

He allowed 5 runs in his third start of the season, pitching a complete game.

In his next 19 games, he pitched 173 2/3 innings and allowed 17 runs, no more than 3 in any game. All 19 games were complete games - three of them losses in which Gibson pitched 8 innings, and three of them extra-inning complete games. Included in those 19 games are a 47 inning scoreless streak, 10 consecutive games (90 innings) with 2 runs allowed, or 11 consecutive games (99 innings) with 3 runs allowed. In his next start (his 23rd of the season), he allowed 5 runs in 11 innings; in the three games after that (27 innings) he allowed 1 run total.
   6. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5738191)
deGrom is the best pitcher in baseball. Don't @ me.

The score pitches to him
   7. Lest we forget Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5738192)
But who's record did he tie from 1913?

I found this:

"New York Mets right-hander Jacob deGrom tied a Major League Baseball record Monday night by allowing three or fewer runs in 25 straight starts in a single season.
Chicago Cubs righty King Cole also went 25 straight starts with three or fewer runs, in 1910, when he went 20-4 with a 1.80 ERA."

And from SI:

"The last pitcher to ever achieve deGrom's feat was King Cole, who also went 25 starts with three or fewer runs while pitching for the Cubs in 1910. "

And this:

"Chicago Cubs righty King Cole also went 25 starts with three or fewer runs, in 1910, when he went 20-4 with a 1.80 ERA."

Hmmm..
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5738215)
In his next 19 games, he pitched 173 2/3 innings and allowed 17 runs, no more than 3 in any game. All 19 games were complete games
Let's just take a minute to reflect on that. Nineteen consecutive complete games.
   9. salvomania Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5738232)
Let's just take a minute to reflect on that. Nineteen consecutive complete games.

Except it's not accurate---his longest CG streak was "only" 13; two of the "8-inning losses" were actually 9-inning losses in which he only pitched 8 innings.

If you start the streak, though, after that second "8-inning loss," he does, then, pitch 13 consecutive CGs, followed by 11 innings in a non-CG, followed by 6 more CGs.

He did pitch at least 8 innings in his final 32 starts of the season.
   10. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5738247)
King Cole was unforgettable.
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5738249)
From BB-Reference:

Cole's 1910 streak: 197.2 IP, 47 runs, ERA indeterminate, NL average RPG 4.03, total NL HR 214

deGrom's 2018 streak: 170.1 IP, 35 runs, 29 earned runs, ERA 1.53, NL average RPG 4.37, total NL HR 2286
   12. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5738251)

The NL CYA and MVP races are going to be pretty interesting this year. The best position player so far has been Lorenzo Cain, with 5.8 bWAR, but there are four pitchers ahead of him. Three of those guys (Scherzer, deGrom and Nola) are a step above the fourth (Freeland).

deGrom has a decent lead in ERA and ERA+, but has allowed more unearned runs and plays in a better pitcher's park than the other two. Nola gets an additional big boost from playing in front of a worse defense -- which I am skeptical of* -- and this puts him in the pitching bWAR lead by a healthy margin over deGrom and Scherzer. deGrom has the better peripherals and FIP, so he leads in fWAR by a healthy margin.

If we're just going by bWAR, the interesting thing is that Scherzer (and to a lesser extent, deGrom) has been a much better hitter than Nola, so that Scherzer actually leads slightly in overall WAR. And of course, deGrom is 8-8 while the other two have gaudy W-L records. If the season ended today, you could make the argument that Scherzer should be the MVP and Nola should be the CYA winner. Or that deGrom should win both, if you believe in FIP/fWAR.

* I believe the Phillies defense is terrible, but we have discussed in other threads whether the advanced stats overestimate that effect. And I question whether Nola, who has only allowed one unearned run this season, and whose ERA is half a run lower than his FIP, can really be losing 0.63 runs per 9 IP to his defense.
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5738262)
Except it's not accurate---his longest CG streak was "only" 13; two of the "8-inning losses" were actually 9-inning losses in which he only pitched 8 innings.
You mean to tell me I can't rely on everything posted by someone on the internet to be completely accurate??
   14. BDC Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5738269)
At one point in 1971-72, Gaylord Perry had a string of 34 pretty good starts: in 31 of them he gave up 3 runs or fewer, and in the other three gave up a fourth run in (respectively) the 7th, 8th, and 11th inning of the game.

That was going to be my Exhibit A for why DeGrom should get off my lawn :) on the theory that it's easier to limit yourself to 3 runs allowed if (like DeGrom) you're only throwing an average of 6 2/3 per start. But it turns out that there are hardly any stretches like Perry's in baseball history, either. Consistently limiting the other team to no more three runs for a long time, whether in nine innings or six, is very unusual.
   15. OCF Posted: September 04, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5738286)
Oops - sorry for the inaccuracies. I'll note that on the file I was working from.
   16. Master of the Horse Posted: September 04, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5738332)
12--If you ask Brewer fans the MVP on the team is Yelich mostly because he was been crushing it since the asb. .356/.406/.729 with 16 homers in 41 games
   17. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5738356)
Yelich has numbers that look a lot more plausible for MVP votes than Cain. Hitting for a slightly higher average, 27 HR and 83 RBI to Cain's 10 and 35. Cain has mostly been a leadoff hitter, but a third of his games were not in the leadoff spot. Plus Yelich has scored 23 more runs in only 4 more games.

Cain has more steals, but Yelich runs well too and is +4 baserunning to Cain's +3. The difference comes on defense with Yelich at +2 with a -5 position adj, and Cain +14 with a +3. That's a 20 run gap.

If Cain were to win the award has there ever been (at least live ball era+) a player with less impressive standard batting stats, other than a SS or catcher? I don't mean Rbat, which is +20 due to his excellent .398 OBP, but more the counting stats.
   18. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5738357)
I'd probably have to go with Nellie Fox 1959, 306/380/389, 2 HR, 70 RBI, 84 runs, 5 steals in 11 attempts.

Nellie had a 6 WAR season for a pennant winner, but his counting stats were not what you expect from an MVP. Bill James did write that he was the only player to legitimately win the MVP over Mantle during Mickey's prime.

Frankie Frisch's 1931 season looks similar. Team performance must have made it happen, otherwise that year looks like the 10th best of Frankie's career.
   19. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5738365)
Gibson's 19 game streak came to an end when he gave up a 4th run in the 9th and a 5th run in the 11th. Pull him after 8 like modern pitchers and the streak continues. Then he stretches it to 23. He gave up 6 runs in 9 innings the next game, but all 6 scored in the last 3 innings.

He would have finished the year with 31 straight in any kind of modern pitching staff management. Nothing too extreme, just pull him after 8 unless he's throwing a shutout or after 7 if he's hit hard in the 7th.

The only time he gave up more than 3 runs before completing 7 innings that year was 4/20, when he gave up 2 in the first and two in the 5th. And then of course completed the game.
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: September 04, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5738414)
I get it's a different era, but the fact that Degrom's accomplishment brings up Gibson '68 is a testament to his performance this year.

Out of all of the great "stats" you can come up with about Gibson, my favorite is always going to be 9 world series games started, 81 innnings pitched. 8 complete games. (went ten in one only 8 in the non-complete game--still with a 1.89 era in those 81 innings, it's hard to believe he allowed 4 runs twice and 5 runs once)
   21. bfan Posted: September 04, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5738432)
Out of all of the great "stats" you can come up with about Gibson, my favorite is always going to be 9 world series games started, 81 innnings pitched. 8 complete games.


That is amazing. Any sense of how high his pitch counts were?
   22. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5738448)

Yelich has numbers that look a lot more plausible for MVP votes than Cain.

Yep. My main point was not that Cain would win the award but rather that a position player may not win this year. The best candidates are probably:
- Baez - .299 / 30 / 100 / 131 OPS+
- Arenado - .301 / 31 / 92 / 135
- Carpenter - .271 / 35 / 73 / 158
- Yelich - .315 / 27 / 83 / 147
- Goldschmidt - .295 / 31 / 79 / 143

I don't really see anyone from Atlanta (unless Freeman goes on a tear), LA or Philly and that's about it from the contending teams. If the Nats weren't so disappointing this season I would have thought Scherzer had the best chance, and deGrom won't get it even if he wins out the rest of the season. I suspect it will come down to the above group + Nola and some combination of whoever finishes strongest and leads their team to the postseason.
   23. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5738471)
Any sense of how high his pitch counts were?


One of his games, I think game 1 of the 1968 WS, is one of the classic games available on MLB.tv. I'm sure somebody has watched it and counted. If not, I hope somebody will.
   24. Rally Posted: September 04, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5738475)
We're in a weird situation where a pitcher could win the MVP and Cy Young, but it deservedly be two different pitchers. Nola or DeGrom for Cy if their final pitching numbers edge slightly out Scherzer, but Scherzer for MVP for his overall contributions - he's having a much better hitting season than they are.
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 04, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5738509)
Out of all of the great "stats" you can come up with about Gibson, my favorite is always going to be 9 world series games started, 81 innnings pitched. 8 complete games. (went ten in one only 8 in the non-complete game--still with a 1.89 era in those 81 innings, it's hard to believe he allowed 4 runs twice and 5 runs once)

It's even harder to believe that he once gave up a 2-run game tying homer with 2 outs in the last of the 9th, and then stuck around to win the game in the 10th. And if he hadn't made one of the greatest fielding plays I've ever seen** right before that game tying home run, he would've suffered one of the most crushing losses in World Series history, and almost certainly cost the Cardinals the Series.

** Joe Pepitone lined a scorcher off Gibson's "hip" that bounced nearly all the way to the 3rd base line. Gibson pounced on it like a cat, and made a perfect 180 degree turnaround jump throw to nip Pepitone by an eyelash. You had to see it in real time to believe just how impossible a play it was. The Yankees screamed bloody murder to no avail.

Game 5, 1964
   26. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 04, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5738519)
Nola gets an additional big boost from playing in front of a worse defense -- which I am skeptical of* -- and this puts him in the pitching bWAR lead by a healthy margin over deGrom and Scherzer. deGrom has the better peripherals and FIP, so he leads in fWAR by a healthy margin.

...

* I believe the Phillies defense is terrible, but we have discussed in other threads whether the advanced stats overestimate that effect. And I question whether Nola, who has only allowed one unearned run this season, and whose ERA is half a run lower than his FIP, can really be losing 0.63 runs per 9 IP to his defense.


I can't think of a worse defense in my many decades of watching baseball. Per my eye test, Hoskins and Williams are horrible in the corner OF spots, Franco has improved to bad at 3B, Kingery, while getting better, is not a SS. The catchers are firing the ball into the OF with alarming frequency, and Hernandez at 2B and Santana at 1B look solid, but not exceptional. And Odubel Herrera has had a year full of boneheadery. There are typically 2-3 extra PAs given away, whether by outright error, bad jumps and overshifting. So .63 might not be out of the realm of possibility.
   27. JAHV Posted: September 04, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5738532)
Joe Pepitone lined a scorcher off Gibson's "hip" that bounced nearly all the way to the 3rd base line. Gibson pounced on it like a cat, and made a perfect 180 degree turnaround jump throw to nip Pepitone by an eyelash. You had to see it in real time to believe just how impossible a play it was. The Yankees screamed bloody murder to no avail.


I assume there's a reason "hip" is in quotes? Did he have something in his pocket?
   28. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 04, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5738589)
So .63 might not be out of the realm of possibility.

The Phils have allowed 4.34 R/9 this season, a 3.90 ERA and a 107 ERA+.

If you believe that their defense has cost them 94 runs this season compared to the average team, then you think that with an average defense they would have allowed 3.66 R/9, a 3.32 ERA, and a 126 ERA+. That would be the best team ERA+ in the majors this season and the 10th best since 2000 -- not impossible, but not necessarily something I'd feel comfortable awarding a CYA or MVP on when there are other stats that present a less extreme picture.

It would also mean that pitching in front of an average defense, Nola would have a 1.60 ERA and a 259 ERA+ -- the 6th best ERA+ of all time, in line with Greg Maddux's 1995, Gibson's 1968, or Walter Johnson's 1913. That part is even harder for me to believe. The problem is that, if I am reading this correctly, B-R just takes the runs saved (or given up) by the defense and allocates them proportionally to all the pitchers on the team based on BIP, without looking at the PBP data for each individual pitcher. That seems like a bad way to allocate value and make award decisions, and reflects a lot of false precision.

I mean, do we really think that Nola, whose ERA is already 0.53 runs below his FIP, has been affected by the defense to the same extent as Nick Pivetta, whose ERA is a full run above his FIP? Or is it more likely that bad defense is not evenly allocated amongst the pitchers on a staff?
   29. Leroy Kincaid Posted: September 04, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5738598)
The outing means deGrom is the first MLB pitcher to complete 25 straight starts allowing three runs or fewer, a record that dates back to


What does completing a start mean? Pitching at least 5 innings? My guess is this is easier to do when you're pitching less innings.
   30. flournoy Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5738614)
Next year the Rays are going to use a pitcher who none of us have heard of yet to pitch to the leadoff hitter in every game, and then take him out. Guaranteed to start 162 consecutive games giving up no more than one run.
   31. Jose Canusee Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:36 PM (#5738642)
I was surprised that all the years of W. Johnson, GC Alexander and other workhorse pre-Ruth pitchers never got a streak, much less Drysdale, Mc Lain or other 60's pitchers.
I would like to know whether guys like Mathewson and McGinnity were throwing CG's of under 100 pitches though (no pitch count stats), which a modern strikeout pitcher gets in 6 2/3 avoiding the bats of the six players on the other team with double-digit HR power. Now starting 40+ games and relieving is a different matter.
   32. BDC Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5738657)
Mathewson had a streak of 19 straight starts down the stretch in 1908 where he gave up 3 runs or fewer. It was broken when he gave up four runs (in the third inning) in the replay of the Merkle game, to end the season.

Then he went out and had 17 straight starts to begin 1909, also giving up 3 or fewer except for a single game on May 31st where he surrendered four, the fourth coming in the 7th inning.

28 of those 36 starts were complete games. Indeed, it was deadball times and one doubts the pitch counts were very high (Mathewson didn't have a double-digit strikeout game in any of them). But as you also note, he relieved eight times during the span. It was a pretty good run :)

   33. BDC Posted: September 04, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5738669)
Ed Walsh had 11 starts to end the 1908 season where he gave up three runs or fewer. He then went the entire 1909 season without giving up more than four runs in a start (28 starts). The he started another 16 to begin 1910, also 4 runs or fewer. I don't know how to compare that to DeGrom exactly, but it too was pretty extreme. So the deadball stars did do somewhat similar things.

It's just hard to avoid a bad outing occasionally. Walter Johnson, in 1913, had a ridiculous R/G of 1.46 in 36 starts (and 12 relief appearances). But the Indians still scored 5 runs against him in one game, and Philadelphia scored 6. Everybody else scored 45 in his other 46 appearances.
   34. Endless Trash Posted: September 04, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5738701)

What does completing a start mean? Pitching at least 5 innings? My guess is this is easier to do when you're pitching less innings.


I was wondering this as well.

DeGrom's "record" includes a game where he pitched 4 innings and a game where he pitched 1 inning(!)

He is at 20 consecutive games with minimum of 5 IP, which is still really impressive but not a record (Cole Hamels had 23 in 2014.)
   35. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5738720)
What am I missing here? I just typed this into the Play Index and it says the record is 29, set by Jake Arrieta from July 2015 to June 2016. Here's the link, if it works.

Corey Kluber had a 26-game stretch from August last year to June this year. And Chris Short also had a 26-game stretch, from April 1967 to April 1968.

So, ummm....what's the deal? Is deGrom's "record" just because his wasn't spread out over two seasons?
   36. Endless Trash Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5738726)
Yes. It's the same thing with hitting streaks. Only intraseason.
   37. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:18 PM (#5738735)
Well then. Tonight Ryne Stanek made his 24th consecutive start allowing 3 runs or less. So he's just 1 behind deGrom.

Now, you pedants might point out that Stanek has only pitched 35 innings in those 24 starts.

And to you I say: shove it.
   38. Endless Trash Posted: September 04, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5738738)
I don't think it's pedantic. As mentioned, degrom has a one inning start in there, so if you impose any minimum inning criteria his streak is down to 20.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: September 05, 2018 at 12:27 AM (#5738752)
Yes. It's the same thing with hitting streaks. Only intraseason.


Hitting streaks can carry over from one season to the next. Some people would ##### about it and claim it wasn't a real streak, but the league itself recognizes streaks that stretch across more than one season.

   40. Endless Trash Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:29 AM (#5738777)
I stand corrected. I shouldn't use as an example something I care so little about.

In that case, it is dumb to not apply the same to this record and say that degrom is still behind arrieta.
   41. Rally Posted: September 05, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5738813)
Well then. Tonight Ryne Stanek made his 24th consecutive start allowing 3 runs or less. So he's just 1 behind deGrom.


I guess that means he ties it tonight.

Now, you pedants might point out that Stanek has only pitched 35 innings in those 24 starts.


Well, since DeGrom's streak includes his one inning start on 5/13/18, Stanek counts too. What was the deal with that game? BBref box score says overcast but no precipitation. Did he get hurt? (He made his next start 5 days later and struck out 13) Or was it just for having a high pitch inning? He threw 45 pitches in a scoreless first.
   42. Rally Posted: September 05, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5738815)
I see it now, it was his first game back from a 10 game DL trip combined with the high pitch inning.
   43. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5738902)
Rally, there was also rain which delayed the start of that game and interrupted deGrom's warm-up.
   44. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5738916)
#28, good points all. No, they aren't 94 more runs than average bad on defense, but they are pretty awful. And Pivetta seems to have the penchant for giving up the big hit or the bad inning. Next year, maybe the roles will reverse for Nola and Pivetta.
   45. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5738932)
It's just hard to avoid a bad outing occasionally. Walter Johnson, in 1913, had a ridiculous R/G of 1.46 in 36 starts (and 12 relief appearances). But the Indians still scored 5 runs against him in one game, and Philadelphia scored 6. Everybody else scored 45 in his other 46 appearances.


In 31 of his appearances, he gave up 13 runs (9 earned), 43 (35 earned) in the other 17.

He didn't give up an earned run until May 14. That Cleveland game (5 er) raised his era all the way up to 0.81.

He had a terrible June though. 1.93 era in 70(!) ip that month. And faltered in September, with a 1.32 era in 68ip.
   46. Hysterical & Useless Posted: September 07, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5740491)
I assume there's a reason "hip" is in quotes? Did he have something in his pocket?


Nah, he was just glad to see her.
   47. bobm Posted: September 16, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5745026)
[3] Posted: September 04, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5738144)
PA pitched with a lead of 1, 0, or -1 runs, 2018:

deGrom: 574/734 (78%)
Nola: 502/710 (71%)
Scherzer: 432/752 (57%)


Is SI writer Tom Verducci a BBTF lurker?

Monday September 10th, 2018
LET US INTRODUCE YOU TO THE MYSTERY OF FLUSHING
By Tom Verducci [...]

One more stress test. Because “pitching with the go-ahead or tying run at bat or on base” is a mouthful, I’ll simplify it to this question: how often did you throw a pitch when the score was tied or the difference was one run? For context purposes, the MLB average is 50.4%, or about half the time.

Batters Faced With Score Tied or Within One Run

[Name] Batters Faced Total Percent
deGrom 574 734 78.2%
Nola 528 736 71.7%
Scherzer 436 788 55.3%

Again, deGrom “wins” easily. He has faced 46 more batters in tight games than Nola and 138 more batters in tight games than Scherzer.

   48. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 16, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5745120)
If Cain were to win the award has there ever been (at least live ball era+) a player with less impressive standard batting stats, other than a SS or catcher? I don't mean Rbat, which is +20 due to his excellent .398 OBP, but more the counting stats.

I'd probably have to go with Nellie Fox 1959, 306/380/389, 2 HR, 70 RBI, 84 runs, 5 steals in 11 attempts.

Nellie had a 6 WAR season for a pennant winner, but his counting stats were not what you expect from an MVP.


Fox may not have been a SS, but 2B is right next to it on the Offensive Spectrum.

Kirk Gibson was the 1988 NL MVP as a left fielder who hit .290/25/76 in the traditional counting stats, being carried by the narrative that the Dodgers won the NL West because Gibson got mad at Jesse Orosco for putting eye black in Gibson's cap during spring training.
   49. Rally Posted: September 17, 2018 at 08:28 AM (#5745412)
Fox may not have been a SS, but 2B is right next to it on the Offensive Spectrum.


True, but the position adjustment for CF is about the same as for 2B. Though in Fox's day it was higher for infielders.

Other than Fox, second basemen who have won the MVP have won it with batting stats that look good for a corner player. Same with center fielders. Even catchers to some extent. Shortstop is the only position to have a number of MVP winners who were nowhere close to being the best hitter in the league.

MVP 2B/CF/C/3B are not always the best hitters in the league, but are at least up there among the best. Willie McGee was one of the worst hitters for CF MVP, but he won the batting title and had a 147 OPS+. That was actually a few points better than Dale Murphy's 1982 MVP season.
   50. Sweatpants Posted: September 17, 2018 at 09:15 AM (#5745424)
Frankie Frisch won the MVP with a .311/4/82 season (101 OPS+). That was when the award was in its infancy, although it was still post-deadball.

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