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Wednesday, June 18, 2014

Jaffe: Untimely Ryan Braun plunking backfires against Diamondbacks

Welcome Mr. Marshall! (disastrous plan)

The Unwritten Rules blew up in the Diamondbacks’ faces on Tuesday night in grand fashion.

Quite simply, Arizona picked a particularly poor time to Make A Statement about what’s acceptable on the diamond. In the seventh inning of their game against the Brewers, the Diamondbacks were clinging to a 4-3 lead with runners on second and third and one out. Reliever Evan Marshall then proceeded to hit Ryan Braun with a pitch that was almost certainly intentional.

Determining intent isn’t easy, of course, but the Diamondbacks were worked up — perhaps understandably so — over Brewers starter Kyle Lohse hitting both Didi Gregorious and Chris Owings earlier in the game. They might have gotten away with retaliation had it been more subtle, but Marshall first threw behind Braun, then plunked him in the left hip with his next pitch, whereupon he was tossed by home plate umpire Ted Barrett. That beaning loaded the bases, and Marshall departed to a standing ovation, one that included a rather gleeful Kirk Gibson, who fist-bumped his ejected reliever.

Gibson has been particularly critical of Braun in the past due to his belief that the Brewers’ 2011 division series victory over his Diamondbacks was fueled by the slugger’s as-yet-undetected use of performance-enhancing drugs. Braun’s positive test, the one whose result was overturned by an arbitrator in early 2012 because his sample was improperly handled, came after Game 1 of that matchup.

Alas, choosing to load the bases in the late innings of a one-run game is a dumb time to try to exact revenge, whether it was Marshall acting alone in an effort to curry favor with his manager and teammates — in which case, mission accomplished — or following Gibson’s ill-considered orders in a high-leverage spot. Reliever Brad Ziegler came on in relief of Marshall, and on his first pitch, he served up a grand slam to Jonathan Lucroy, who had hit a solo homer in his previous bat as well.

Repoz Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:18 AM | 51 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brewers, d-backs

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   1. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4729163)
i mentioned this in the dugout. watching it in real time was somewhat surreal. thanks to mlb's great app i touched base with the arizona side of things and they were besides themselves with glee at the team hitting braun nad pretty much dismissed the homer as ancillary

it was...................bizarre
   2. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4729167)
this has been a weird series to say the least. Brewers taking full advantage of all of the little breaks, first with the Aramis check swing 'no call' which led to the 3 spot late the other night. Lots of anti-Brewers fire in AZ, you could see fans quite annoyed with the road team fan presence in the seats last night too.
   3. catomi01 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4729185)
hey might have gotten away with retaliation had it been more subtle, but Marshall first threw behind Braun, then plunked him in the left hip with his next pitch, whereupon he was tossed by home plate umpire Ted Barrett.


Is it just me or does this seem more common - specifically - guys missing with the first HBP attempt, and then hitting the guy on the next pitch - seems like everyone of these beanball wars lately includes a brush back pitch (or one behind the guy) and then the HBP itself on the next pitch.

That part doesn't matter as much though aside from how stupid this was - was the thinking basically - open base, lets IBB walk him - but while we're at it, might as well put the guy in his place?
   4. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4729194)
but Marshall first threw behind Braun


Hold on.

The pitcher was stupid enough to throw BEHIND the batter while ahead by only a run and with a runner on 3rd base?!
So if gets by the catcher, the tying run would have scored AND you wouldn't have hit the batter?

The pitcher is a ####### moron.
   5. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:59 AM (#4729195)
If I were an AZ fan, I'd be livid if my meathead manager were still employed this morning after throwing away a game in his ill-fated attempt to resurrect the classic SNL skit ¿Quién Es Más Macho?

ADD: The pitcher is a ####### moron.

There's also the very real possibility Marshall was simply following orders from the dugout. They noted on MLB Network last night that the first guy to greet Marshall at the dugout with a congratulatory fist bump after getting tossed was Kirk Gibson.
   6. salvomania Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4729201)
Would people be saying how stupid Gibson was if he'd IBBed Braun instead?
   7. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4729205)
salvo

i would. from my comment in the dugout

braun has been struggling with his thumb and ribs the last sevearl weeks. he's been pretty puny at the plate. i know it's all hip to not consider hot streaks or slumps as significant but anyone watching the brewers for more than 2 minutes could tell braun is not himself and lucroy is hitting out of his mind.

that seems like a whackadoodle trade off to me
   8. Dan Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4729207)
Hitting a batter instead of IBBing him is something immature people do in an MLB video game. That is not something that should be happening in real life. Gibson should be suspended for this bullshit.
   9. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4729208)
Would people be saying how stupid Gibson was if he'd IBBed Braun instead?


The IBB is generally derided 'round these parts so probably. However, as pointed out by RTG there is a considerably greater risk of a wild pitch that allows the run to score when you are throwing at someone than there is with an IBB.

Is it just me or does this seem more common - specifically - guys missing with the first HBP attempt, and then hitting the guy on the next pitch - seems like everyone of these beanball wars lately includes a brush back pitch (or one behind the guy) and then the HBP itself on the next pitch.


Most people don't want to be hit so they get out of the way. On top of that it's something pitchers typically don't do. It's a very unusual pitch to throw so a lack of accuracy seems reasonable to expect.
   10. Fanshawe Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4729209)
Many baseball players are babies.
   11. valuearbitrageur Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:12 AM (#4729215)
AZ fans have always known that "Team Grit" has actually been in reality Team Douch-bag. For Kurt Gibson, no slight is ever too small to deserve an over the top whacky response. You accidently hit one of our guys? #### YOU! We will intentionally hit 10 of your guys!!!!! My starting pitcher complains his arm is tired or hurts? #### YOU! You still owe me 100 pitches!

Mass executive firings cannot come too soon.
   12. Batman Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:16 AM (#4729221)
Next game they play, a timely Ryan Braun plunking will win the game for Arizona. That's the great thing about baseball.
   13. formerly dp Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4729230)
Hitting a batter instead of IBBing him is something immature people do in an MLB video game.
Why is it immature in a video game? Those guys don't have central nervous systems, and are thus incapable of feeling pain. Unless Tron was a documentary.
   14. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4729232)
Was Lohse doing anything wrong in the game? I only saw the near-beaning of Owings on SportsCenter, and there Lohse's reaction was the sort of immediate "oh ####, I could have really hurt someone" slump that a pitcher does when one just gets away from him. The idea of retaliation to that seems ludicrous, but I'd be interested in the take of someone who actually saw the game, to see if Lohse was being reckless with brushbacks or something. That wouldn't excuse the D-Backs, but at least that would at least put it within the realm of normal baseball stupidity.
   15. asinwreck Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4729238)
Mass executive firings cannot come too soon.

No! Who will Rick Hahn trade with if Kevin Towers is unemployed?
   16. JE (Jason) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4729251)
Jonathan Lucroy woke up this morning with a .340/.401./.537 slash line, which are Piazza-like numbers. A skipper who goes out of his way to pitch to guy with those numbers with the bases loaded should be fired yesterday.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4729267)
lucroy is hitting .379/.422/.655 in june

and he's hitting EVERYTHING hard over the last 2 weeks

meanwhile, braun couldn't look worse at the plate. he's hurt
   18. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4729271)
D-Backs, D-Bags...it's all so perfect it makes me think the baseball gods are hacks. Read a little John McGahern or Ray Carver up there, guys. A little nuance, please.
   19. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4729272)
Take the air out of Lucroy's slash stats to the tone of, say, 40 points of batting average and you have a pretty good defensive catcher hitting .300/.361/.497. That's a superstar.
   20. beefshower Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4729289)
#14 I'm not a fan of either team but I had the game on last night in the background while I was working so I may not have this 100% correct but as things started to get bizarre I started to pay more attention to the game than my work. After Owings got hit I believe the pitcher Bolsinger came up to bat and squared to bunt before Lohse even delivered the ball. The pitch from Lohse looked like a slider that got away from him and came up and in on the pitcher who had to duck from getting hit up around the head. I really don't think it was intentional by Lohse to come up and in on that pitch but since it was only a batter after Owings got hit in the head everyone was a little sensitive to another pitch being in that area. The feed I was watching showed Gibson up on the top step of the dugout barking at Lohse about getting the ball over the plate and I believe the second pitch high and tight is what brought about the retaliation.
   21. Dale Sams Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4729292)
You don't tug on Kennedy's cape
You don't piss into the wind (or a pool)
You don't pull the mask off of ol Marshall
and you don't mess around with Gib.
   22. Ziggy Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4729314)
Lucroy has been good for a while now, too. It took him a while to hit his stride, but he's actually a very very very good player. (And on an extremely reasonable contract.)
   23. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4729330)
#20 thanks. It's still stupid, but at least it makes a degree of sense.
   24. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4729348)
lucroy is a wizard at pitch framing. i know this has been discussed ad nauseum on places like fangraphs but for those who may not be aware lucroy is very deft at making borderline pitches strikes
   25. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4729389)
thanks to mlb's great app i touched base with the arizona side of things and they were besides themselves with glee at the team hitting braun nad pretty much dismissed the homer as ancillary


Of course they were. What else does a last-place team 14 games under .500 have to look forward to?

Watching the clips, it was clear Lohse's HBP wasn't intentional. Retaliation for that was a real sand-in-the-vag move.
   26. valuearbitrageur Posted: June 18, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4729393)
That wouldn't excuse the D-Backs, but at least that would at least put it within the realm of normal baseball stupidity.


This is the latest in a never ending series of bean-ball wars the Douchebacks have gotten into under Gibby. I think our MLB market share for macho posturing has to be over 50%, esp. if you include Towers moronic off-season comments that the Douchebacks need to hit more batters, coming off a season where they hit almost 20 more opponents batters than opponents hit of theirs.

But I don't really blame the Douchebacks leaders, it's not their fault they are dumb. I like Gibby, but he's a rockhead. Towers is, well, he's a well documented moron. There isn't really any fix for stupid, they will never be able to understand what they've done.

It's like when you leave your new leather dock shoes at home and forget to kennel the new puppy? Should you be surprised that the puppy chewed them into pulp? Is it the dogs fault or is it your fault? You think a dog can understand that what it did by instinct is wrong?

OK, bad example as dogs are smart and adaptable. But imagine there was a dog so unrelentingly dumb it never understood why you get mad when it shreds your belongings. That dog is our GM, and his more likeable but equally dumb puppy from same kennel is our manager (while unlikeable and dumb mangy cur is our owner).

I blame the MLB. The Douchebacks can't help themselves, but when they have been constantly in beanball wars the last 2 years and even announce pre-season they are agoing head hunting this season, and then crap like yesterday happens, why are we hearing crickets from the NL commissioner and MLB itself?
   27. valuearbitrageur Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4729397)
I didn't think the state of Arizona could ever be embarrassed worse than by what Sheriff Joe Arpaio & his fellow wingnuts have already done, but apparently the Douchebacks heard me and decided to take me up on the challenge.
   28. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4729407)
Why is it immature in a video game? Those guys don't have central nervous systems, and are thus incapable of feeling pain.


He didn't say it _made_ you immature, just that if somebody does it, it's likely they were immature to begin with.
   29. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4729450)
Why is it immature, while playing a video game, to accomplish the same thing with one pitch that would otherwise take four?
   30. Moeball Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4729454)
For those who think that pitchers thinking about pitch counts is only a recent matter, there is the story about when Drysdale was pitching for the Dodgers and they were going to intentionally walk a batter with first base open in a key situation. The catcher stood up, held out his glove, and Big D promptly nailed the batter. The catcher trotted out to the mound and asked "What the heck was that all about? We were supposed to intentionally walk the guy".

Drysdale's response? "Why waste 4 pitches when you can put him on in only 1?"
   31. Good cripple hitter Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4729466)
Why is it immature, while playing a video game, to accomplish the same thing with one pitch that would otherwise take four?


Last I checked (and I haven't played the more recent MLB games), an intentional walk happened automatically in video games. You just press the appropriate button combo and it happens immediately without showing all four pitches.
   32. Willie Mayspedester Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4729471)
Next thing you guys are gonna tell me is that there is something wrong with making Wayne Gretzky's head bleed.
   33. Ron J2 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:08 PM (#4729499)
#30 Actually that story (or variations of it) were more frequently told of Stan Williams back in the day. I recall Hank Aaron saying that Williams was the only guy who scared him.

Williams was supposed to have had a notebook that he kept track of who was owed and whether it was a brushback, beaning or whatever.
   34. thetailor Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4729508)
If this happened in New York instead of a backwoods like Arizona, the manager would already be packed.

I say that, but yet, Terry Collins still remains. So what do I know.
   35. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4729519)
part of me wonders if kirk isn't a bit unbalanced. a manager is supposed to be the cool head.

very similar to when ned yost had the brewers pitcher plunk albert pujols in late september leading to a cards rally when the brewers needed every game in 2007 to maybe have a chance. (for those interested 9/26/07)

it was just so WEIRD
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4729546)
i mentioned this in the dugout. watching it in real time was somewhat surreal. thanks to mlb's great app i touched base with the arizona side of things and they were besides themselves with glee at the team hitting braun nad pretty much dismissed the homer as ancillary


More than likely the decision was to either intentionally walk him or bean him. I seriously doubt that pitching to Braun in that situation crossed the minds of the Diamondbacks.

braun has been struggling with his thumb and ribs the last sevearl weeks. he's been pretty puny at the plate. i know it's all hip to not consider hot streaks or slumps as significant but anyone watching the brewers for more than 2 minutes could tell braun is not himself and lucroy is hitting out of his mind.

that seems like a whackadoodle trade off to me


Even with that knowledge, you still want to set up the double play. Vast majority of managers in baseball are going to IBB Braun in that situation. I'll bet 20+ managers in baseball walk Braun in that situation.


Hitting a batter instead of IBBing him is something immature people do in an MLB video game. That is not something that should be happening in real life. Gibson should be suspended for this bullshit.

Agree, I know plenty of people who say "why not do that..." but for the most part, none of them are major league pitchers/managers, and most pitchers and managers aren't certified sociopaths. (Tim McCarver was talking about a pitcher in the 60's who had a clause in his contract that if he had less than 100 walks in the season, he would get a bonus, and in September he was in the 90's, so when he was afraid he was going to walk someone, he would bean them...no idea of how true it was, but it's a nutsoid story)


   37. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4729627)
You know, I went from not having no opinion about the D-Backs and Kirk Gibson to intense dislike in a remarkably short amount of time.

Gibson strikes me as the type of guy who would wear his letter jacket to his 20th high school reunion.
   38. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4729686)
Lots of anti-Brewers fire in AZ, you could see fans quite annoyed with the road team fan presence in the seats last night too.


As a fan of a team in an actual division race with the Brewers, it would be nice if they would channel some of that anger into actuially beating them on the field.

The fact that your teams sucks is not an excuse not to try to win. ARI should be punished harshly for this nonsense.

#35, yes, that was very weird. Can't believe that was almost 7 years ago.
   39. Leroy Kincaid Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4730073)
Mass executive firings cannot come too soon.

Except for Mr Wallbangers. Seems he was a voice of reason.
   40. madvillain Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4730092)
When keepin' it real goes wrong?
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:47 PM (#4730124)

"but for those who may not be aware lucroy is very deft at making borderline pitches strikes"

if you're an umpire and you are aware of his admittedly clever and deft actions, wouldn't you stop giving him borderline calls?
   42. Tripon Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:51 PM (#4730127)
What the hell is going on with the D'Backs?

At what point does a team think trying to settle perceived slights is more important than winning games?
   43. JE (Jason) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:19 PM (#4730140)
MLB Network's Amsinger, Reynolds, and Byrnes just talked for 10 minutes about Gibson vs. Braun but failed to mention that it was a one-run game in the seventh inning and Lucroy was up next. Do these guys brag about their cluelessness?
   44. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:38 PM (#4730146)
Irrelevant but #43 brought it to mind: I think the funniest passage in all of Dirk Hayhurst's books (even if the initial joke was horribly telegraphed a page in advance, it was still hilarious) consists of several of his teammates kvetching about how terrible an announcer Joe Morgan is. The money quote (unattributed, I think) was "If you drank a shot every time he started a sentence with 'I', you'd die of alcohol poisoning before the fifth inning."
   45. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: June 18, 2014 at 11:59 PM (#4730152)
Amsinger, Reynolds, and Byrnes...

Three good reasons I got rid of MLB Network
   46. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: June 19, 2014 at 12:24 AM (#4730157)
The Phoenix radio jocks were in a lather today, complaining about how the national media is unfairly portraying the Dbacks as the bad guys when the Brewers hit more people! I couldn't help but think, when your manager and GM vocally make macho bullshit a priority, you lose the benefit of the doubt if beanballs start flying.

Also, if the radio guys are any indication, the Dodgers remain in the Dbacks' heads. I heard that brought up twice today. Guys, it's just a pool.

   47. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 19, 2014 at 05:35 AM (#4730208)
howie

The ump is conditioned to call a strike a strike (save for angel Hernandez). If the catcher catches the pitch in such a way that the pitch fits the parameter of a strike call the ump is going to call the pitch a strike

Lucroy has been in the league now for several years. If anything he has become even more persuasive at generating strike calls
   48. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: June 19, 2014 at 07:03 AM (#4730211)
But imagine there was a dog so unrelentingly dumb it never understood why you get mad when it shreds your belongings.

How would such a dog compare to Lasorda?
   49. Howie Menckel Posted: June 19, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4730285)

Harveys, I believe we are talking about pitches that are not in fact strikes - but balls framed to LOOK like strikes. good for Lucroy, but if I'm an ump I'd rather call a strike a strike, as you say, and a ball a ball. just seems weird to keep getting suckered by certain catchers and not make an adjustment to remove the sleight of hand...

   50. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 19, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4730300)
Harveys, I believe we are talking about pitches that are not in fact strikes - but balls framed to LOOK like strikes. good for Lucroy, but if I'm an ump I'd rather call a strike a strike, as you say, and a ball a ball. just seems weird to keep getting suckered by certain catchers and not make an adjustment to remove the sleight of hand...


I believe the research shows it's the opposite of sleight of hand. Catchers who get more strikes do so not by deftly pulling the ball back in the zone, but by simply moving very little. They receive the ball quietly. I think it's more accurate to say, and builds on the point Harvey is making about umpire conditioning, that poor catchers are costing their battery mates strikes, rather than good ones are stealing them.
   51. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 19, 2014 at 10:01 AM (#4730315)
sosh

it's a combination but certainly more of the former you describe versus the latter (stealing).

i guess howie's follow up posts kind of surprise me because pitch framing has been a pretty hot topic in the baseball analysis world now for several years. fangraphs and others are writing an article about it at least once a month.

and fundamentally i tihnk a catcher who the umpire somehow perceives is making his job 'easier' is going to get rewarded.

i also think the impact of pitch framing is pushing teams away from even attempting to use poor catchers. george kottaras hits like a guy who whould have a regular bench job but is so poor at receiving pitches i think teams believe his homers/walks are not worth it

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