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Wednesday, January 09, 2013

Jeff Bagwell: “I hurt for Craig”

This sounds like an updated version of an old Pamelyn Ferdin Movie of the Week.

The Hall of Fame announced on Wednesday that no players were elected this year.

“I am absolutely amazed that Craig did not get in on the first ballot,” Bagwell said in an interview with FOX 26 Sports. “I hurt for him because I know it means a ton to him.

“I hurt for Craig because you’re talking about 3000 hits and you don’t get in on the first ballot, that sucks. He deserves to be in right now.”

Bagwell received 59.6% of the vote in his third try, up from 56% last year.

“For me, it’s okay by me about me,” Bagwell said.

It is not okay for Bagwell about what happened to Biggio.

“That’s ridiculous to me,” Bagwell said. “It doesn’t make any sense to me and I think it’s a travesty.”

Bagwell is also disappointed for Roger Clemens, the seven-time Cy Young Award winner. In his first time on the ballot Clemens received 37.6% of the vote.

“Arguably the best pitcher that’s ever graced this earth,” Bagwell said. “I understand everything that’s gone on and I understand a lot of that stuff.

“It’s just weird to me. For Rocket not to get in, I knew he wasn’t going to get in. It just sucks.”

Repoz Posted: January 09, 2013 at 07:24 PM | 66 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 09, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4343614)
“I am absolutely amazed that Craig did not get in on the first ballot,” Bagwell said in an interview with FOX 26 Sports. “I hurt for him because I know it means a ton to him.

“I hurt for Craig because you’re talking about 3000 hits and you don’t get in on the first ballot, that sucks. He deserves to be in right now.”


JEFF BAGWELL, WHY DID YOU USE STEROIDS?!?!?!??!
   2. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4343615)
Jeff Bagwell remains one of my favourite all-time players. Perhaps second to Craig Biggio.
   3. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: January 09, 2013 at 08:09 PM (#4343629)
“For me, it’s okay by me about me,” Bagwell said.


Is Bagwell warming up his singing voice?
   4. Moe Greene Posted: January 09, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4343636)
Jeff Bagwell: “I hurt for Craig”

Maybe you wouldn't hurt if your body wasn't breaking down from all the roids you did years ago!
   5. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: January 09, 2013 at 08:35 PM (#4343649)
Baseball allowed it. I consider myself an old school fan but this is ridiculous.

These holier than thou writers are a joke. And quite frankly, the holier than thou posters on this site and others that would disqualify Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds from the Baseball Hall of Fame. For what? They CHEATED? Cheated who? The kid in triple A who wasn't called up? Cry me a river, Bonds was not taking his spot and everyone was using, even the replacement level players, even the pitchers. The little kids in the stands? The stands were packed. They loved it. Even chicks dug the long ball, at least that's what Greg Maddux told me. And if any of these writers found a cream that could win them a Pulitzer and the Pulitzer family didn't care as long as it brought more people to tune in... They would bathe in it.

Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds were by all accounts hard asses and at times could be selfish, narcissistic SOB's but they are without question, drugs or no drugs two of the top 50 players in the history of the game I played, loved and still love. I enjoyed watching them play. At times there was nothing like it. It happened. I saw it. The numbers are the numbers. Their careers are known to us.

I could maybe agree with Bill James - make them wait a year, one year, but don't argue they don't belong. And if you still believe these players don't belong, then Selig doesn't belong either. And the HOF is not an HOF but the Hall of some transient majority's ill defined morality.

   6. MelOtt4 Posted: January 09, 2013 at 08:48 PM (#4343663)
Talk about roid rage from Bagwell!
   7. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: January 09, 2013 at 09:06 PM (#4343676)
Pretty nice stuff to say considering he could easily be outwardly upset on his own behalf.
   8. stealfirstbase Posted: January 09, 2013 at 09:51 PM (#4343708)
Baseball allowed it. I consider myself an old school fan but this is ridiculous.

These holier than thou writers are a joke. And quite frankly, the holier than thou posters on this site and others that would disqualify Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds from the Baseball Hall of Fame. For what? They CHEATED? Cheated who? The kid in triple A who wasn't called up? Cry me a river, Bonds was not taking his spot and everyone was using, even the replacement level players, even the pitchers.

The writers are a sanctimonious joke, but the players who cheated require some punishment. These players took the place of clean players, may have caused other clean players to start taking steroids, and created an unfair playing field against the clean players.

And there were plenty of clean players who were victims of the steroid era.

Bonds and Clemens should go into the Hall eventually, but that's because they were HOFers before they cheated.
   9. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 09, 2013 at 09:52 PM (#4343710)
“I hurt for him because I know it means a ton to him.”
...
“For me, it’s okay by me about me,”


Spoken like a man that obviously warrants exclusion via the character clause.


These players took the place of clean players, may have caused other clean players to start taking steroids, and created an unfair playing field against the clean players.

Ah. So their mistake was using a drug less widespread than amps. Amps users didn't exclude non-amps users because there were no amps non-users. Is that the logic now?
   10. Bruce Markusen Posted: January 09, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4343740)
My kingdom for a story/thread that has nothing remotely to do with steroids.
   11. Squash Posted: January 09, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4343741)
And if any of these writers found a cream that could win them a Pulitzer and the Pulitzer family didn't care as long as it brought more people to tune in... They would bathe in it.

I'm pretty sure this cream is called "booze", and if we are to believe the stories of the old train-ridin' days of the job when men were men and ballplayers were ballplayers and blacks played in the Negro Leagues then the writers essentially did bathe in it.
   12. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:09 PM (#4343771)
The writers are a sanctimonious joke, but the players who cheated require some punishment. These players took the place of clean players, may have caused other clean players to start taking steroids, and created an unfair playing field against the clean players.


I think players who did NOT use steroids should be punished. They cheated the game and the fans of their best efforts, and i would never allow even one of those lazy prigs into the HOF, regardless of their "natural" performance level.

When did we become such a nation of pussies that we celebrate guys who knock off early, did just enough to get by, and refused to risk, strive or sacrifice to win? In the old days, you took out the catcher, spiked the shortstop, threw a spitter, scuffed the ball, plunked that SOB who homered off you, and never, ever backed down from a fight or let down your teammates. If you weren't caught trying to deceive the ump, it was because you were too busy corking your bat, or trying to get the signs stolen by the guy with binoculars in the scoreboard. If you were exhausted from a long night of p*ssy scouting from the top of the hotel with binoculars guy, you didn't whine, you just took an extra handful of greenies from the big bowl in the clubhouse and went out to kick someone's ass.

And if you got caught cheating, did the nation grasp its collective skirts, and faint? NO! You made a half assed apology knowing you had just cemented your rep as a goddam red blooded American hero, the kind any team would be happy to have, that teammates were proud to play alongside, and whose c*ck women lined up for the honor of s*cking.

Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire risked their health to pump themselves full of nasty black market drugs so they could work out twice as often and twice as hard as those gutless, talentless, punks who got by giving their absolute minimum necessary to the game. Steroid users gladly turned themselves into cartoon caricatures so they could burn their wings near the sun. They did it to break records, win games and championships, make history so you, I and all real fans could see what true greatness is. When they were out there, they showed us what real baseball is, contested out of sweat, blood, ####, piss and pain in the dust of arenas immortalized by what these greats left of themselves on that hard unforgiveing dirt..

Steroid freaks deserve our goddam respect and gratitude for what they gave us, their all regardless of the price they knew they'd have to pay. Big Mac sacrificed his mighty balls, shrunk into tiny acorns, disappearing long ago in his gigantic trunk. Bonds deformed his handsome head, Clemens, his magnificent ass. Because of the gifts they gave us, It's unlikely any of these men will live long enough to see their grand kids play ball, but silently, stolidly, they will carry the burden of their sacrifices with honor for the rest of their short, glorious and historic lives.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:31 PM (#4343783)
I think players who did NOT use steroids should be punished. They cheated the game and the fans of their best efforts, and i would never allow even one of those lazy prigs into the HOF, regardless of their "natural" performance level.
......................



Primey level of performance. Great post. :)
   14. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:39 PM (#4343789)
Bravo, KT. Bra-effing-vo.
   15. Sunday silence Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:47 PM (#4343794)
The writers are a sanctimonious joke, but the players who cheated require some punishment. These players took the place of clean players, may have caused other clean players to start taking steroids, and created an unfair playing field against the clean players.


well then how do you feel if we start a movement to remove all the records from the record books in the 1990s? Not just HR records, but pennants and world series too? On the basis that there was so much cheating going on?

I mean doesnt it stand to reason that if these guys cheated enuf to not deserve the HoF then surely those teams with roided up players should also be penalized? WOuldnt that be consistent?
   16.   Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4343796)
Fantastic, KT.

   17. Esoteric Posted: January 09, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4343798)
Pretty sure KT wins the day at Primer. That final paragraph is a truly bravura performance.
   18. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4343813)
Jeff Bagwell: "I hurt for Craig. I wish I could quit him."
   19. stealfirstbase Posted: January 10, 2013 at 12:22 AM (#4343817)
well then how do you feel if we start a movement to remove all the records from the record books in the 1990s?

Why? There's clean records there, too. And baseball's a team game, so you could never remove the accomplishments of a team for the infraction of one player. If someone cheated, they get punished. It's a simple rule and a simple solution.

Edit: That is an excellent post, KT.
   20. DanG Posted: January 10, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4343832)
There's clean records there, too.
Craig Counsell's HOF case is growing year-by-year.
   21. cmd600 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:30 AM (#4343842)
but that's because they were HOFers before they cheated


When exactly did they start cheating? How do we know they didn't experiment with other drugs before any of their accusers suggest? What if guys before Canseco were just as loaded to the gills with the most advanced drugs of their day?

This game we play (mostly played by the Verduccis, Costases, and Chasses) where we act like we know more than enough about PED use (not just steroids) that we can start passing judgment makes no sense to me. We don't know diddly poo.
   22. base ball chick Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:46 AM (#4343850)
folks oooooh and moaned over pete rose saying
i'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball

but guys who DO that are spit on

BAH

poor baggy - it is more than bullshtt that he's outside lookin in. he's more worthy than BGO.

and clemens is one of the 3 best RHP like ever, and it is an OUTRAGE that he is not in
   23. stealfirstbase Posted: January 10, 2013 at 02:22 AM (#4343864)
When exactly did they start cheating?

This shouldn't be a witch hunt. They started using the first season where there's good evidence they used. That could include a paper trail, witness allegations, gaining 40 pounds of muscle in a year, whatever the convincing evidence is.

Clean players played clean. Dirty players cheated. I'm not into rewarding cheaters. BBC, if they had decided to walk through hell in a gasoline suit, that wouldn't have been cheating. Pete Rose didn't say he'd create a fundamentally unfair playing field to keep playing.

If they were HOFers before they cheated, great. If not, c'est la vie.

EDIT: Also, is there any good evidence Bagwell roided? I'm not talking about rumors here, I'm talking about something more substantial.
   24. base ball chick Posted: January 10, 2013 at 02:35 AM (#4343869)
23 - there is no evidence at ALL that bagwell used roids. unless you consider weight lifting = doing roids. he's been up front about buying andro/creatine from the GNC. which i don't consider to be roiding. but i have asked an awful lot of people who are into roiding/body building and i can't find anyone who knows about bagwell doing roids. an ex-roider i know who worked at the same gym said that best he knew bagwell didn't roid and he spent a lot of time just building up his arm/shoulder muscles - lifted for HOURS. much more than roiders actually DO. said he looked - forget the exact word - unbalanced. (he had skinny legs even in the late 90s - i know, i saw him)

he hurt his shoulder in 2000

bu 2004, he couldn't even pick up his 7 lb baby daughter, and he couldn't lift weights at all any more. it's not a sign that he stopped roids because of testing.

some assholic people are insisting that because bagwell was previously friends with caminiti, he must have started shooting drugs AFTER cammy left the team. it's pretty bullshtt, you ask me

(there ARE a few other guys on the astros teams i have strong suspiscious that shot up, but no evidence. of course, i haven't looked. mostly because i don't care and i don't see the point of outing them if i DID find any evidence)
   25. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:33 AM (#4343892)
“For me, it’s okay by me about me,” Bagwell said.

I think he's been hanging out with Jonathan Singleton.
   26. Bug Selig Posted: January 10, 2013 at 07:54 AM (#4343915)
gaining 40 pounds of muscle in a year


This is absolute bullcrap. You could do it, if you cared enough. I could do it, if I cared enough. Every fall, I see multiple 17 year olds who have done it. This is not evidence of steroid use.

   27. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 10, 2013 at 08:51 AM (#4343928)
Post 12 is excellent.

And baseball's a team game, so you could never remove the accomplishments of a team for the infraction of one player. If someone cheated, they get punished. It's a simple rule and a simple solution.


This is the money quote from the other side though. Cheating for part of one's career = cheater who should be punished. Cheating by part of a team = OK, it is a team game. So If half a team cheats (with management, ownership and the other players all being OK with it) then the season accomplishment is OK. If someone cheats for half their career, then the whole career is tainted?

How does that make sense? And that is ignoring the "simple" soution based on no (or very limited) knowledge, and the fact that the punishment is being retroactively applied for something that was not seen as truly against the rules (If MLB did not care enough to do something then ...), but at least we are only applying the punishment against those who were both good enough to deserve to be in the hall of fame and got caught. Becauswe punishments that only hit a certain subgroup and are not applied against everyone are the MOST fair of all.

EDIT: And yeah, Bagwell sounds cool and along with like 10 other guys onthe ballot, deserves to be in the hall of fame and it is a shame he and the others are not.
   28. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 10, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4343929)
gaining 40 pounds of muscle in a year


I was talking to my 63-year old father last night. He's been going to a gym for the last 3 months, and has gained 10 lbs of muscle since he started. Any 20-something with a mesoporphic build could put on 40 lbs of muscle in an offseason with the right diet and dedication, assuming they weren't already bulked up when they started.
   29. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 09:03 AM (#4343932)
Well, either that, or your dad is on steroids. Have you checked his back for acne lately?
   30. Tim McCarver's Orange Marmalade Posted: January 10, 2013 at 09:51 AM (#4343948)
"gaining 40 pounds of muscle in a year"

That just doesn't happen, even with elite athletes. People fool themselves into thinking that the gain is all muscle, but a lot of it is also water and fat. You just can't process that much protein into muscle that quickly. If you gain 15 pounds of muscle in a year you've done great.

How Much Muscle Can You Gain?
   31. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 10, 2013 at 09:56 AM (#4343952)
Well, either that, or your dad is on steroids. Have you checked his back for acne lately?


He was also raving about the therapy pool at the gym (apparently the man had never been in a hot tub), so I would imagine they'd have kicked him out if he had a pizza back.
   32. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4343964)
I was talking to my 63-year old father last night. He's been going to a gym for the last 3 months, and has gained 10 lbs of muscle since he started. Any 20-something with a mesoporphic build could put on 40 lbs of muscle in an offseason with the right diet and dedication, assuming they weren't already bulked up when they started.

It is much, much, much easier to gain muscle, when you first start. People naturally plateau off really quickly, and those gains get smaller and smaller. For professional athletes, who are already entering the offseason with a decent amount of muscle mass...
   33. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4343988)
Really, Bagwell didn't do steroids and this is a certainty! His body broke down. When I look for hints on steroid users, bodies that stop working over and over again is one I look for and pay attention to. Nomar, Bagwell, Caminiti, Reyes...injuries that are atypical. Is it proof? No, but I believe the majority of the players tried Performance enhancing drugs. Some to recover from injuries and others as a regimen. Those that used as a regimen had their bodies break down eventually...but they all used to some level, just as Canseco said. Yes, Jeter too! To think otherwise is being naive.

Now can we get back to Life - When are pitchers and catchers starting?
   34. JJ1986 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4343995)
Nomar, Bagwell, Caminiti, Reyes...injuries that are atypical.


Who is Reyes?
   35. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 10, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4344005)
My kingdom for a story/thread that has nothing remotely to do with steroids.


Unfortunately MLB has allowed the BBWAA to completely destroy any ability to process the HOF season without this sort of thing. I think one random baseball beat writer (over the age of 40) should be publicly shot and killed every year until Barry Bonds is inducted into the HOF. this is idiotic.
   36. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4344012)
Reyes = Jose Reyes and I am a Mets fan who thoroughly enjoyed the excitement he brought to the team...but players in their twenties don't have injuries like he did, for the most part, without something externally added to the mix. At this point, if there is something abnormal, I assume the worst. Sad, but true.
   37. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 10, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4344031)
Unfortunately MLB has allowed the BBWAA to completely destroy any ability to process the HOF season without this sort of thing. I think one random baseball beat writer (over the age of 40) should be publicly shot and killed every year until Barry Bonds is inducted into the HOF. this is idiotic.

Why random? Let me choose. Also, don't stop once Bonds is inducted.
   38. Tippecanoe Posted: January 10, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4344034)


players in their twenties don't have injuries like he did, for the most part, without something externally added to the mix.


Seriously?!? There are scores of players throughout baseball history who have injury histories roughly similar to Jose Reyes. Barry Larkin, Bob Horner, Joe Dimaggio, etc.

And then you have the problem that both durability (i.e., Bonds/Palmeiro) and injuries are attributed to steroid use. In Bagwell's case, both his durability and his injury are cited. As circumstantial evidence for PED usage goes, injury history sucks.
   39. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 11:50 AM (#4344069)
I was talking to my 63-year old father last night. He's been going to a gym for the last 3 months, and has gained 10 lbs of muscle since he started. Any 20-something with a mesoporphic build could put on 40 lbs of muscle in an offseason with the right diet and dedication, assuming they weren't already bulked up when they started.


A skinny 20-something who had never trained before, yes. A 20-something professional athlete? Not on your life.

Beginner's gains aren't sustainable, and aren't available to non-beginners.
   40. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 11:55 AM (#4344077)
Every fall, I see multiple 17 year olds who have done it. This is not evidence of steroid use.


You do realize that you're mostly talking about 17 year olds who start around 150 and end up around 190, not start around 210 and end up around 250, right? These are kids who start out skinny, eat like mofos (usually intentionally overfeeding for the first time in their lives), and lift weights for the first time while their bodies are going through the final stages of puberty (hormonally equivalent to being on a light-dosage cycle). This is the perfect storm for muscle-building, and you can't expect a 20-something professional athlete to replicate it naturally.
   41. Ron J2 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4344130)
For professional athletes, who are already entering the offseason with a decent amount of muscle mass...


Sure, but professional baseball players were actively discouraged from building upper body strength. Certainly true until the early 90s at the earliest.
   42. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:08 PM (#4344165)
Seriously?!? There are scores of players throughout baseball history who have injury histories roughly similar to Jose Reyes. Barry Larkin, Bob Horner, Joe Dimaggio, etc.

I don't agree:

From Reyes' Bio: On March 11, 2010, Reyes was diagnosed with a hyperactive thyroid gland, and was ordered by doctors to cease spring training activity. - Please list the volumes of players who miss time due to a hyperactive thyroid gland. Reyes was the first I had heard of but perhaps, back before 1998, there were some that I am unaware of them.

On May 3, 2009, Reyes was placed on the DL due to a calf injury. Reyes was expected to be back in early June but when rehabbing the injury he pulled himself from an extended spring training game; an MRI the following day revealed the tear, which Reyes confirmed was different than the initial injury. - If I recall (and I do, very clearly), what was described at the time was a complete tear from the bone, a very unusual and painful injury. These types of injuries do not happen to well balanced, trained athletes.
   43. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4344168)
That just doesn't happen, even with elite athletes. People fool themselves into thinking that the gain is all muscle, but a lot of it is also water and fat. You just can't process that much protein into muscle that quickly. If you gain 15 pounds of muscle in a year you've done great.


When a professional athlete gains 40 lbs of muscle in a year, he never gained 40 lbs of muscle in a year because...

Writers compare his reported former weight to his current weight, and get both wrong. The baseball card weight is always his claimed rookie weight or from 5 years ago.

His weight gain isn't all muscle.

He started lifting more than one year ago.

Even when writers get the numbers from the athlete , he naturally exaggerates.

Often the athlete started north of 200lbs, sometimes significantly so.
   44. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4344175)
From Reyes' Bio: On March 11, 2010, Reyes was diagnosed with a hyperactive thyroid gland, and was ordered by doctors to cease spring training activity. - Please list the volumes of players who miss time due to a hyperactive thyroid gland. Reyes was the first I had heard of but perhaps, back before 1998, there were some that I am unaware of them.


I had this diagnoses without taking steroids, and without training at all!

What's your point?

That you heard a rumor his calf tear was worse than normal, and haven't heard rumors other calf tears were worse than normal, so Jose's must have been caused by steroids he took while never failing a test?

I mean, to tear from the bone without the use of steroids would require naturally strong and heavily trained legs containing a high percentage of fast twitch fiber. Since Jose is not known for his foot speed or quickness in your magick happy world of illusion and delusion, i think you nailed it.
   45. Greg K Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4344176)
I was talking to my 63-year old father last night. He's been going to a gym for the last 3 months, and has gained 10 lbs of muscle since he started. Any 20-something with a mesoporphic build could put on 40 lbs of muscle in an offseason with the right diet and dedication, assuming they weren't already bulked up when they started.

Agreed. Have you seen all the mass Mac tacked on in season seven?
   46. cmd600 Posted: January 10, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4344216)
They started using the first season where there's good evidence they used


So you just want to play "everything I already know is good enough" game. Ugh.
   47. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4344286)
I had this diagnoses without taking steroids, and without training at all!

What's your point?


You managed to not answer the question. Sorry to hear that you had this condition but you are not a world class athlete that missed time because of it, did you? What other pre-steroid era players have missed playing time due to this condition?

Then in 2009 Reyes tore his calf and then while rehabbing, tore his hamstring. I know that if this were a court of law, I don't win a case but I don't need a court to form an opinion. And this isn't only about Reyes, it is the vast majority of players I will assume used. Geez, even Andy Pettitte? At the pointt hat Pettitte confirmed his use, I acknowledged what Canseco had been saying for years. You can keep your head in the sand if you want, I don't. And, BTW, I don't really care, Bagwell, Bond, Clemens all belong in the HOF.
   48. alilisd Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:05 PM (#4344306)
You could do it, if you cared enough. I could do it, if I cared enough.


No, you couldn't. The 17 years olds you mention, perhaps, but that's entirely different from a physically mature adult doing so. It's 40 pounds of muscle, not just 40 pounds. Over 3 pounds of muscle a month, nearly a pound a week. Gains like that do not happen for adults without AAS assistance.
   49. alilisd Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4344308)
He's been going to a gym for the last 3 months, and has gained 10 lbs of muscle since he started.


Two things: was this accurately measured and large gains for an older person, who was likely very under conditioned, are not particularly unusual over a short period. Ask him in 6 months if he's gained another 20 lbs of muscle.
   50. alilisd Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:10 PM (#4344311)
When I look for hints on steroid users, bodies that stop working over and over again is one I look for and pay attention to. ... Those that used as a regimen had their bodies break down eventually... Yes, Jeter too! To think otherwise is being naive.


No, to think as you do is naive. The idea that AAS cause bodies to break down is baseless.
   51. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4344326)
Two things: was this accurately measured and large gains for an older person, who was likely very under conditioned, are not particularly unusual over a short period. Ask him in 6 months if he's gained another 20 lbs of muscle.


I'm not saying the 40-lb gain is common, just that's its possible without steroids. My dad is doing high-rep, mid-weight machine work four days a week, plus walking and stationary bike work. He's not trying to bulk up, not taking any kind of supplements or eating additional protein. He told me that he's gone from 205 to 215, and kept the same notch on his belt buckle. This is the first time he's ever "worked out", but he's been very active his whole life. He's 6' 1", with wide shoulders - the typical mesomorph build. And again, he's 63. Probably not a whole hell of a lot of testosterone or natural HGH in his system.
   52. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4344331)
No, to think as you do is naive. The idea that AAS cause bodies to break down is baseless.

That is not what I said. I did not say that using steroids causes bodies to break down, I stated that when there is an unusual break down of the body (breaking down before age norms, significant reoccurring injuries, Etc.) then I assign blame to usage. That doesn't mean that everyone who takes steroids has their body break down. Each person responds differently to what they take. Two people can take on the same regimen and respond to it completely differently. However, when one of those persons has their body deteriorate in an abnormal way, you can be sure of the cause. Much like smoking seems to cause cancer in some while others can smoke 3 packs a day for 50 years and not be diagnosed with cancer, the human body react differently to everything we do it it. We have come to accept that if a person smokes and has cancer that the smoking caused the cancer, it is possible that in a small percentage of the time it didn't but we generally accept that it did.
   53. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4344332)
Honestly, I think Jose Canseco is a pretty good advertisement for the efficacy and long-term safety of steroids, unless you think his unhinged mental state is something new. I haven't seen any before and after pics of his balls, so I can't comment on that aspect.
   54. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4344333)
I haven't seen any before and after pics of his balls


Its only a matter of time if you follow him on Twitter.
   55. Dave Spiwak Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4344340)
Good irregular use of "me" by Bagwell. It's up there with some of the best.


"I love me some me." -- T.O.
"Me want cookies." -- Cookie Monster
"Me so horny." -- 2LiveCrew
“For me, it’s okay by me about me." -- J. Bagwell
   56. smileyy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4344350)
So we can paint Ken Griffey, Jr. with the steroid brush too? We even have the comparable of his dad _not_ breaking down.
   57. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4344368)

You do realize that you're mostly talking about 17 year olds who start around 150 and end up around 190, not start around 210 and end up around 250, right? These are kids who start out skinny, eat like mofos (usually intentionally overfeeding for the first time in their lives), and lift weights for the first time while their bodies are going through the final stages of puberty (hormonally equivalent to being on a light-dosage cycle). This is the perfect storm for muscle-building, and you can't expect a 20-something professional athlete to replicate it naturally.

Right. I gained about 40 lbs without growing in height between ages 17 and 20 by lifting weights and eating more. But I was starting out as a rail-thin 17-year-old, it wasn't all muscle, and I largely plateaued after that.
   58. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4344465)
Humans ...

Guy makes completely unsubstantiated claim about players adding 40 pounds of muscle in an offseason and ...

instead of challenging this "fact" people go into a debate on whether you can add 40 pounds of muscle in an offseason?

KTPA is kicking all y'all's asses -- he's got the funniest post and the most sensible post in this thread.
   59. attaboy Posted: January 10, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4344468)
So we can paint Ken Griffey, Jr. with the steroid brush too? We even have the comparable of his dad _not_ breaking down.

We even have the comparable of his dad _not_ breaking down. - Really?!?!?!
   60. Tim McCarver's Orange Marmalade Posted: January 10, 2013 at 06:10 PM (#4344512)
"instead of challenging this "fact" people go into a debate on whether you can add 40 pounds of muscle in an offseason?"

If you conclude that it is not possible to gain anywhere close to 40 pounds of muscle in an off season (as I have above), haven't you just challenged the claim about players gaining 40 pounds of muscle in the off season? Haven't you called into question the alleged "fact"?
   61. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 10, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4344530)
Agreed. Have you seen all the mass Mac tacked on in season seven?


Standard, it's a scientific fact that newly divorced males gain substantial amounts of muscle mass that first year.

Unless they already own a Porsche.
   62. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4344607)
If you conclude that it is not possible to gain anywhere close to 40 pounds of muscle in an off season (as I have above)

I took your post as support for the notion that you can't NATURALLY add 40 pounds of muscle thereby adding to the idea that a player who adds 40 pounds of muscle must have used steroids.

If you were trying to say that even with the use of steroids a player could not add 40 pounds of muscle, therefore #23 is ludicrous on its face, then I apologize.
   63. alilisd Posted: January 10, 2013 at 08:25 PM (#4344615)
My dad is doing high-rep, mid-weight machine work four days a week, plus walking and stationary bike work. He's not trying to bulk up, not taking any kind of supplements or eating additional protein. He told me that he's gone from 205 to 215, and kept the same notch on his belt buckle.


Then there's no way of knowing if he's truly gained 10 pounds of muscle as it was not accurately measured. I'd still like to find out if he's gained another 20 pounds in 6 months. Either way his story is no support for the idea anyone can gain 40 pounds of muscle in a year.
   64. alilisd Posted: January 10, 2013 at 08:27 PM (#4344617)
That is not what I said. I did not say that using steroids causes bodies to break down, I stated that when there is an unusual break down of the body (breaking down before age norms, significant reoccurring injuries, Etc.) then I assign blame to usage.


And the difference is?

Each person responds differently to what they take. Two people can take on the same regimen and respond to it completely differently. However, when one of those persons has their body deteriorate in an abnormal way, you can be sure of the cause.


How can you be sure?
   65. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 10, 2013 at 09:27 PM (#4344645)
Steroid freaks deserve our goddam respect and gratitude for what they gave us, their all regardless of the price they knew they'd have to pay.

So do the bearded lady, the sword swallower, the guy who takes the cannonball to the gut, and Evel Knievel.
   66. Esoteric Posted: January 10, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4344675)
Hey SBB, you do realize that KT was taking the piss in that post, right?

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