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Monday, August 01, 2011

Jered Weaver: In Defense Of Headhunting

When Jered Weaver threw at Alexi Avila’s head, the purpose pitch missed by a long shot. Even though Weaver could have hit him, his job is to precisely locate the ball and he did so here - far from doing any damage. But you never know. And that is the terror of the billy club. And you don’t find out about that terror if you stay within the lines of playing the game in a respectful manner. It was a chilling reminder to all that the pitcher is a force of nature on the mound. He literally can kill you.

WiHaloFan Posted: August 01, 2011 at 08:37 PM | 89 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Rough Carrigan Posted: August 02, 2011 at 01:39 AM (#3890767)
He can literally overreact like an insecure little girl to Magglio Ordonez waiting at the plate to see if the ball he hit was fair or foul.
   2. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2011 at 01:48 AM (#3890784)
Overreaction was the theme of the day. Weaver overreacted to Ordonez, and then Guillen overreacted to Weaver's overreaction, and then Weaver overreacted to Guillen. And then, just to make sure the theme was really drilled home for use by those teachers who might wish to incorporate it into their lesson plans, Verlander overreacted to Aybar's bunt.

I think it was the heat, to be honest. But either way, it made for some very entertaining theater.
   3. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:15 AM (#3890828)
And then, just to make sure the theme was really drilled home for use by those teachers who might wish to incorporate it into their lesson plans, Verlander overreacted to Aybar's bunt.


Did he have a no-hitter at the time?
   4. Mash Wilson Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:18 AM (#3890829)
Sam M.: There's a theory--I forget where I heard it--that the real reason everyone in the Middle East has been trying to kill each other for 3,000 years is because it's always hot as hell there and even today there's not much air conditioning. We could probably do a lot worse than pay for AC to be installed in every building in the area and see if anything changes.
   5. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#3890833)
Doesn't headhunting imply throwing at a batter's head with the intent to actually hit him? There's nothing that would convince me, short of Weaver admitting to it himself, that there was any intent to hit Avila. If Weaver had wanted to hit him, he would have.
   6.   Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#3890845)
Carlos Guillen pretty much deserves whatever he gets, but wtf did Alex Avila do? That's just stupid.
   7. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:49 AM (#3890848)
Carlos Guillen pretty much deserves whatever he gets, but wtf did Alex Avila do? That's just stupid.
Nothing. Which is why Weaver intentionally didn't hit him. He sent his message, for better or worse, without hitting Avila.
   8. Mike A Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#3890857)
I don't think it's a great assumption a hitter will get out of the way of a 92-mph fastball aimed near his head.

Hit him in the ribs or something instead.
   9. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3890858)
There's nothing that would convince me, short of Weaver admitting to it himself, that there was any intent to hit Avila. If Weaver had wanted to hit him, he would have.

I agree 100%. The way these things go, and looking at Guillen's classiness again, I think Avila is very lucky that Guillen pulled that on someone who wasn't actually going to hit a guy.
   10. Ron J Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:25 AM (#3890862)
But Shredder what message is he sending? I'll kill you the next time I see you Guillen is a plausible way to parse the "message"

As I said in the other thread, the only rational thing for Guillen to do the next time he's due to face Weaver is to shoot him in the parking lot. Only in the leg since by sAM logic that's not serious.
   11. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:31 AM (#3890868)
The message was \"#### you!", and it was delivered in many different media over the course of those few minutes.

When Weaver hits Guillen next year, it will be below the head. Though I guess he may choose to knock him down like he did Avila instead of hitting him.
   12. Ron J Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:40 AM (#3890878)
#11 And if Weaver hits Guillen why shouldn't Guillen go Al Cowens on him. Or better still, use his bat. Again according to sAM logic that should be fine since Roseboro survived.
   13. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:44 AM (#3890882)
I don't think it's a great assumption a hitter will get out of the way of a 92-mph fastball aimed near his head.
He didn't have to get out of the way. If Avila had never moved, the ball still would have been a foot over his head. Unless he somehow gained the powers of Apache Chief, there was absolutely no way that ball was going to hit him. It was, for its intention, a perfectly thrown pitch.
But Shredder what message is he sending? I'll kill you the next time I see you Guillen is a plausible way to parse the "message"
Blackhawk pretty much covered it. And if you see that as Weaver somehow saying he would literally like to snuff the life out of Guillen, I think you're being quite ridiculous.
   14. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#3890886)
#11 And if Weaver hits Guillen why shouldn't Guillen go Al Cowens on him. Or better still, use his bat. Again according to sAM logic that should be fine since Roseboro survived.

I'm sure he'll charge the mound. Taking his bat would definitely be out of line. I have no idea what this "sAM logic" is or why I should answer for it.

And Shredder, the ball wasn't quite a foot over his head. I agree that it wouldn't have hit him even had he not ducked, but it wasn't a foot.
   15. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:55 AM (#3890890)
The problem I have with Shredder's logic is that it depends on its being a "perfectly thrown pitch." Even if we credit Weaver's intention being to throw the ball well over Avila's head -- which I'm willing to do because I happen to agree with it -- I'm not at all comfortable with saying that intent is OK. Unfortunately, there will be an unfortunate (and unacceptable) percentage of pitches thrown to that location with that intent that will NOT be "perfectly thrown," and which will have a rather considerable tendency to separate the occasional hitter's head from his neck.

For this reason (and I don't think Shredder disagrees with this, though he might), Weaver has to be suspended, regardless of his intent. So does Guillen. I think that's an unfortunate, but necessary, outcome here, because I really did find the whole thing hugely entertaining. But it's the price of how they went about their business yesterday.
   16. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:59 AM (#3890894)
I agree that a suspension is warranted, due to there having been a warning issued.

I don't really have a problem with intentionally throwing over someone's head, and I think pitchers would probably do a better job of not hitting a batter in the head if they aim high rather than try to pinpoint, say, the front shoulder.
   17. Every Inge Counts Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:01 AM (#3890895)
Jered Weaver was a ######### the entire game after the Magglio homerun (which was nothing disrespectful at all)...he earned Carlos Guillen showing him up with his ###### behavior during the game.
   18. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:08 AM (#3890897)
Weaver and Ordonez had already had their say to each other. Guillen had nothing to do with it until he made himself part of it. I have never seen a batter act like Guillen did there.
   19. Every Inge Counts Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:21 AM (#3890903)
Weaver and Ordonez had already had their say to each other. Guillen had nothing to do with it until he made himself part of it. I have never seen a batter act like Guillen did there.


Which was why Weaver was yelling at Miguel Cabrera as well...and then Weaver yelled at Magglio again in the 6th inning. Weaver was a punk and got treated like one.
   20. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#3890904)
The MLB Network was projecting tonight that Weaver was harboring ill feelings towards Ordonez stemming from an incident in a very nasty brawl with Ordonez and Jeff Weaver in 2000 in which Ordonez kicked Jeff Weaver. Who knows if there is any merit to that.
   21. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#3890907)
You can't act like Guillen did and then be surprised when the next pitch comes high and tight. Guillen's actions are about the furthest you could go before a fight immediately breaks out. The pitch around the head is the nuclear option but in this situation it's about the only option Weaver had to get the message across. And I think he was heard loud and clear.
   22. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3890909)
Unfortunately, there will be an unfortunate (and unacceptable) percentage of pitches thrown to that location with that intent that will NOT be "perfectly thrown," and which will have a rather considerable tendency to separate the occasional hitter's head from his neck.
Guys get hit all the time on pitches that aren't intended to hit them. Accidents happen. That doesn't change the fact there was no intent to hit Avila, and in fact, that's the one place a pitcher can throw a purpose pitch and all but guarantee that he won't hit the guy.
For this reason (and I don't think Shredder disagrees with this, though he might), Weaver has to be suspended, regardless of his intent. So does Guillen.
I honestly don't care either way. So he gets pushed back day. Give Garret Richards a start.
   23. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:48 AM (#3890910)
Which was why Weaver was yelling at Miguel Cabrera as well...and then Weaver yelled at Magglio again in the 6th inning. Weaver was a punk and got treated like one.

Weaver was clearly just getting Cabrera to pass the message on to Ordonez. When I said that Weaver and Ordonez had their say, I was referring exactly to the 6th inning, when they jawed at each other (Ordonez running close to the mound to talk to him); there is no "again". As Torii said, everyone acted stupidly, but Guillen really escalated the punkery, acting in a way I have never seen a ballplayer act before.
   24. Mike A Posted: August 02, 2011 at 05:57 AM (#3890919)
I don't think there's ever a reason to throw anything near a batter's head. Maybe Weaver wasn't trying to hit him, but no need to take that risk with a 92 mph fastball. Not to mention Avila was an innocent party here.

Weaver will get suspended, and rightly so.
   25. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:47 AM (#3890929)
Even if Weaver never intended to hit Alvila's head or any other part of his body (merciful soul that he is), why aim at Alvila's head? Would the message have been lost or diminished if he threw behind him or brushed him back at gut level? There was no excuse for specifically how Weaver chose to handle things.

I thought both Weaver and Guillen were ##########. Weaver shouldn't have gotten into it with Ordonez in the first place. I never understood why pitchers are allowed to glare at hitters as they run the bases, in effect showing them but hitters are supposed to tone everything down. Of course what Guillen did was way over the line, as he didn't celebrate his home run as much as confront and openly taunt Weaver. He didn't have to fight Ordonez's battle.

Pitchers who are overly sensitive to home run admiring hitters should be sentenced to be soccer goalies. I want to see how they react to all the freaking individual and team routines that go on after goals.
   26. Ron J Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:05 AM (#3890930)
"sAM logic" is from the other thread. Since it's been nearly a century since anybody was killed sAM (an old usenet reference to the days when Sam Hutcheson didn't use caps. We go way back and I'm willing to be snarkier with people I count as friends) is fine with throwing at people's heads. Al Cowens, Tony Conigliaro, Paul Blair and others are seemingly no big deal.

Blair's an example of why I object. Nobody thinks Ken Tatum was throwing at Blair. Pitch just got away. But if you start out throwing high and you make a mistake -- and pitchers do all the time -- that particular mistake may have consequences. Jim Bouton and Sandy Koufax wouldn't brush hitters back because they feared exactly that.

And Cowens wasn't a charge the mound. That's pointless. Cowens got to the guy who had broken his jaw by waiting until he grounded out to short. Instead of heading to first Cowens headed to the mound. Nobody was in a position to come to Farmer's aid.

And maybe I'm wired wrong but I honestly don't see why bringing the bat isn't an appropriate response. (Cowens didn't. Actually getting his hands on Farmer -- who put Frank White on the DL in the same game he broke Cowens' jaw -- was enough to satisfy him.)
   27. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:20 AM (#3890932)
Sam M.: There's a theory--I forget where I heard it--that the real reason everyonein the Middle East has been trying to kill each other for 3,000 years is because it's always hot as hell there and even today there's not much air conditioning. We could probably do a lot worse than pay for AC to be installed in every building in the area and see if anything changes.

When I was in Saudi, everybuilding, from shop to hotel to shack to roadside diner had an AC. I figured they were govt provided as a necessity. It was, indeed, hot as hell.
   28. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:29 AM (#3890934)
If Weaver had wanted to hit him, he would have.


It's not quite that easy to hit a guy - and the history of baseball dustups proves it.
   29. Ron J Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:37 AM (#3890935)
#27 I lived in the boonies in Iran in the mid-60s. No AC at my school, which meant that starting some time in May the school day start at 7 and ended at 11:30.

Punishing heat.
   30. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:44 AM (#3890947)
Pitchers don't kill batters, baseballs do
   31. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:00 AM (#3890948)
Ahh, so glad Shredder is reasserting his position of most loathsome human being on this site*. What Weaver did was completely unexcuseable, full stop. Avila would have been perfectly justified in picking that ball up, and shoving it down Weaver's throat.
And if you think that ball would have missed Avila's head by more than a foot, had he not ducked, then I want some of what you're smoking... Actually since it's pure Angel's fanboyism, I really don't.

*Sam H, of course is only distantly related to the species of homo sapiens.

But let me stress, that what Guillen did was completely classless. If I had hit that HR, I would have calmly rounded the bases... until about 10 feet from home plate, where I would have turned around and moonwalked to the plate. Finishing with a 1080 spin around, then grabbing my crotch with one hand, and pointed right at Weaver's face with the other. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

And ftr, I have never liked Guillen.
   32. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:53 AM (#3890962)
When Jered Weaver threw at Alexi Avila’s head,


Is this a typo? I can't find any reputable source that calls him "Alexi".
   33. Famous Original Joe C Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:59 AM (#3890966)
My team's player's actions were justified, but the other team's player did something terrible!
   34. JL Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:31 PM (#3890988)
As Torii said, everyone acted stupidly, but Guillen really escalated the punkery, acting in a way I have never seen a ballplayer act before.

What exactly did Magglio do that was stupid? I did not see the game, but from replays and descriptions, I don't see much that he did wrong.

Guillen felt he was standing up for a teammate. It was misguided and wrong. It was also done in an absolutely stupid way (I say this as a Tigers fan). But I am sympathetic to what he was trying to do. And Weaver acted like an absolute idiot.
   35. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:35 PM (#3890990)
In my opinion, pitchers shouldn't intentionally throw at people's heads. I don't really understand the other side to that argument. The pitcher might miss. If Weaver really needed to "send a message" then he can throw it at Avila's waist or his legs or something. He threw at his head. Do I think he meant to hit Alex Avila in the head with a 92 mph fastball? No, but it wasn't so high that it flew to the backstop. I might be wrong but I thought the catcher caught the ball without completely standing up. It wasn't so high that Avila didn't feel the need to duck. (Disclosure - I am a Tigers partisan.)
   36. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:37 PM (#3890992)
Ahh, so glad Shredder is reasserting his position of most loathsome human being on this site*
Oh no, I ticked off some d-bag that I've never heard of. How will I make it through the day?
   37. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:44 PM (#3890996)
I don't think it's a great assumption a hitter will get out of the way of a 92-mph fastball aimed near his head.


This point might be relevant in a situation where a fastball has been aimed near someone's head. In the situation being discussed, where the fastball was aimed two feet above someone's head, it's less on point.

The idea that you should throw at the batter's body instead belies an apparently lack of understanding about how baseballs travel through space. Any pitcher who is sending a "message pitch" up there is going to throw a four seam fastball. That rises. If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels. The hitter, knowing well that Carlos Guillen has just put a target on his uniform by being an absolute asshat, is going to react naturally.

By ducking.

Ball high. Action on the ball rising. Player ducking. No real danger.

Ball "at the hip" or "at the back." Ball rising. Player ducking. More actual danger of getting hit somewhere else. This is why message pitches are thrown above the head or behind the runner.

I suppose we'll need to convert this basic baseball logic to some form of six decimal place mathematical formula for you lot to grasp it.
   38. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:46 PM (#3890997)
Oh no, I ticked off some d-bag that I've never heard of. How will I make it through the day?


It'd difficult. I suggest like, a utility belt full of Kleenex. I cry a lot about this sort of thing, ya know.
   39. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 02, 2011 at 12:51 PM (#3891001)
I think the Angel fans are 100% right here. In fact, I remember them defending Josh Beckett a couple of years ago when he threw at Abreu after time was called. "Oh, Beckett was not throwing at Bobby Abreu, you could tell because the pitch did not hit Abreu, it was not that close!" was the refrain from Angel fans far and wide. Clearly the fact that Weaver did not actually hit Avila is incontrovertible proof of poor Mr. Weaver's innocence.
   40. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 01:51 PM (#3891039)
Clearly the fact that Weaver did not actually hit Avila is incontrovertible proof of poor Mr. Weaver's innocence.
Innocent of what? I don't think anyone has claimed that the pitch was entirely innocent. I've just claimed that he intentionally tried NOT to hit Avila.
In fact, I remember them defending Josh Beckett a couple of years ago when he threw at Abreu after time was called. "Oh, Beckett was not throwing at Bobby Abreu, you could tell because the pitch did not hit Abreu, it was not that close!"
I'm sure someone can dig up the thread, but my beef was more that a) Beckett was routinely taking about a half hour to deliver the ball, b) got pissed off when someone dared to step out of the box on him, and c) whizzed a pitch over Abreu's head when he pretty clearly hadn't intended to do that before going into his motion. A difference here is that I'm willing to bet that Weaver had that spot picked out before took the mound. Beckett's pitch was a bit more reckless (as it wasn't, I'm guessing, pre-meditated), and was "retaliation" against Abreu for having the audacity to not sit in the box for as long as Beckett wanted him to. Seeing as how Beckett hits batters about 2.5 times as often as Weaver, and has hit 15x as many batters as Weaver over the last two seasons, I have a little more faith in Weaver's control.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:11 PM (#3891048)
I'm sure someone can dig up the thread, but my beef was more that a) Beckett was routinely taking about a half hour to deliver the ball, b) got pissed off when someone dared to step out of the box on him, and c) whizzed a pitch over Abreu's head when he pretty clearly hadn't intended to do that before going into his motion. A difference here is that I'm willing to bet that Weaver had that spot picked out before took the mound. Beckett's pitch was a bit more reckless (as it wasn't, I'm guessing, pre-meditated), and was "retaliation" against Abreu for having the audacity to not sit in the box for as long as Beckett wanted him to. Seeing as how Beckett hits batters about 2.5 times as often as Weaver, and has hit 15x as many batters as Weaver over the last two seasons, I have a little more faith in Weaver's control.


To summarize, for anyone who doesn't want to wade through: Weaver throws for my guys, Beckett threw at my guys.

(FTR, I thought Beckett's actions were indefensible).
   42. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:17 PM (#3891054)
Shredder, good lawyering consists of coming up with solid distinctions for precedent cases.

If you're ever in legal trouble, don't represent yourself. Hire someone.
   43. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:42 PM (#3891076)
To summarize, for anyone who doesn't want to wade through: Weaver throws for my guys, Beckett threw at my guys.
Yeah, if I were you, I also would have left the part out of the summary about Beckett being a bean-baller.
   44. SoSH U at work Posted: August 02, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3891085)
Yeah, if I were you, I also would have left the part out of the summary about Beckett being a bean-baller.


I thought Beckett was a complete and thorough ####### in that game. Said so at the time. Will say it now. The upside is I don't have to schedule a chiropractic appointment to rectify the unnatural contortions a feller must endure to distinguish one act of flat jackassery from another.
   45. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 03:12 PM (#3891108)
If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels.


No, it doesn't -- because of these little things called gravity and conservation of momentum. Rising fastballs don't really rise, just like the little Energizer Bunny doesn't bring the good kids candy on the day Baby Jesus hopped out of the tomb.

Only children believe in the Easter Bunny. Only dipsh!ts believe rising fastballs actually rise.
   46. Bug Selig Posted: August 02, 2011 at 04:36 PM (#3891179)
The idea that you should throw at the batter's body instead belies an apparently lack of understanding about how baseballs travel through space. Any pitcher who is sending a "message pitch" up there is going to throw a four seam fastball. That rises. If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels.


...explaining perfectly why no one has ever thrown a strike with a 4-seam fastball. You'd have to throw the damn thing underground!
   47. Poster Nutbag Posted: August 02, 2011 at 05:02 PM (#3891199)
Since some of you may have missed it from the other thread:

Curious....where does the notion that it was about a foot or two higher than Avila's head come from? Educated guess? The only pitch f/x data I can find, since brooksbaseball does not have the exact matchup, is the overall plot for all pitches. This one shows, to a left handed hitter, a pitch just UNDER 6 feet and WAY inside. Avila is just under 6 feet tall. Am I reading that chart wrong? Is there another with more accurate data? Or is it a closer pitch then some of you are willing to admit and that's why a lot of folks find it immature and entirely indefensible?

Let's stop calling the pitch 2 feet above his head, that's quite far from the truth.
   48. Squash Posted: August 02, 2011 at 05:18 PM (#3891213)
No, it doesn't -- because of these little things called gravity and conservation of momentum. Rising fastballs don't really rise, just like the little Energizer Bunny doesn't bring the good kids candy on the day Baby Jesus hopped out of the tomb.

Specifically, "rising" fastballs fall less, which gives the illusion that they're rising.

re: the bean ball, I can tell you as a former pitcher that it's extremely difficult to hit someone in the head, particularly if that someone expects they're about to get thrown at. It's a small moving target about four feet away from where you've spent your entire life training to throw - just overriding the muscle memory is difficult. Most of the severe beanings that have occurred were mistakes rather than intentional. I'm sure there are examples, but I can't remember the last time someone meant to hit someone in the head and then actually succeeded in hitting them in the head. Weaver actually got a lot closer than I expected.
   49. Sam M. Posted: August 02, 2011 at 05:34 PM (#3891222)
I'm sure there are examples, but I can't remember the last time someone meant to hit someone in the head and then actually succeeded in hitting them in the head.


This may restart an old war that is perhaps better left in the past, but here it is, your moment of Zen.
   50. Srul Itza Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:08 PM (#3891236)
Which just goes to prove what a superior pitcher Clemens is, managing a feat that eluded others.

If he had only trained in the javelin, think what he could have accomplished later that year.
   51. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:08 PM (#3891237)
- As Torii said, everyone acted stupidly, but Guillen really escalated the punkery, acting in a way I have never seen a ballplayer act before.

What exactly did Magglio do that was stupid? I did not see the game, but from replays and descriptions, I don't see much that he did wrong.


Well, the "everyone" isn't literally meant to include every person there. I didn't think Ordonez did anything wrong, and I did think Jered overreacted to that. (I will say that the ball looked obviously fair off the bat watching on TV, so Ordonez's story there is suspect, though I will grant that his perspective from home plate might be worse than mine on my couch.)

As for the Beckett thing, my problem with his actions was that he immediately starting charging home plate after throwing the pitch, yelling at Abreu. Note that while Jered did bark at Cabrera about Ordonez, and then he and Ordonez exchanged words, at no point did he throw a pitch anywhere near Ordonez. He stayed entirely on the outer half of the plate.

Also, it's pretty silly to just ignore context, reputation, and history. Beckett has a rep of being a jackass. Weaver doesn't have this rep, and hasn't ever been in any contretemps like this before. If there were a pattern here, that would be one thing. There simply isn't.

I do wish he hadn't lost his temper over the Ordonez thing. I think he was justified in sending a message after Guillen escalated the situation in an unprecedented manner. I am torn about how he did it -- while I do agree that you shouldn't go after someone's head, I do think that he planned to do it in a way where he wouldn't hit Avila. And I'm glad he didn't hit him, because you don't want the baserunner there.

Basically, I'm for him knocking Avila on his ass, and I'm not convinced that the way he knocked him on his ass was the worst way to do so.
   52. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3891246)
but I can't remember the last time someone meant to hit someone in the head and then actually succeeded in hitting them in the head.


Kenny Powers.
   53. Lassus Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:43 PM (#3891259)
but I can't remember the last time someone meant to hit someone in the head and then actually succeeded in hitting them in the head.

What are you, an only child?
   54. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 06:56 PM (#3891267)
(I will say that the ball looked obviously fair off the bat watching on TV, so Ordonez's story there is suspect,


Not from home plate --- even the umpire was was moving up the line with his eyes fixed on the ball. The video clearly shows both Ordonez and the ump staring at the trajectory of the ball. There is absolutely nothing suspect about Ordonez's story -- he was clearly looking at the ball's flight.
   55. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:05 PM (#3891275)
Weaver was a punk and got treated like one.

With their whiny sneers, their "Ooooh, I can throw a baseball at you, look how tough I am" bullshit, and their skinny white trash carriages, the Weaver brothers define the term "punk." Jeff was a Tiger and I hated his guts -- as did many Tiger fans.

They're right up there with Danny Ainge and Claude Lemieux as most annoying athletes ever.
   56. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:23 PM (#3891285)
They're right up there with Danny Ainge and Claude Lemieux as most annoying athletes ever.


The most annoying athletes ever were the entire 1990 Detroit Pistons.
   57. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:33 PM (#3891293)
Jered is nothing like Jeff on the field.
   58. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:51 PM (#3891299)
And Shredder, the ball wasn't quite a foot over his head. I agree that it wouldn't have hit him even had he not ducked, but it wasn't a foot.

If I watch Jered's next start, I'll bet I see him miss the catcher's glove with a fastball by a foot at least once. If you think it was that close, your "hey he knows what he's doing and totally wouldn't hit the guy in the head" defense is obliterated.
   59. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#3891304)
Jered is nothing like Jeff on the field.


Well, except for the "I just ate a hot bowl of steaming phlegm" sneer, which seems to have been inherited from the father.
   60. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:03 PM (#3891308)
Look, even Rod Allen in the Tigers' booth thought that Weaver wasn't actually trying to hit Avila. This isn't really some crazy point of view here.

Allen's views on the postgame spread are unknown to me.
   61. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3891311)
Oh no, I ticked off some d-bag that I've never heard of. How will I make it through the day?

Oh don't flatter yourself, you're far too pathetic to upset me.


Curious....where does the notion that it was about a foot or two higher than Avila's head come from? Educated guess? The only pitch f/x data I can find, since brooksbaseball does not have the exact matchup, is the overall plot for all pitches. This one shows, to a left handed hitter, a pitch just UNDER 6 feet and WAY inside. Avila is just under 6 feet tall. Am I reading that chart wrong? Is there another with more accurate data? Or is it a closer pitch then some of you are willing to admit and that's why a lot of folks find it immature and entirely indefensible?

Let's stop calling the pitch 2 feet above his head, that's quite far from the truth.


Thanks for the link. I can't understand how anybody could watch that and think the pitch was 7-8 feet from the ground. The catcher wouldn't have been able to snag it easily if it had for one. And it looked pretty close to the spot that Avila's head just vacated...



If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels.

No, it doesn't -- because of these little things called gravity and conservation of momentum. Rising fastballs don't really rise, just like the little Energizer Bunny doesn't bring the good kids candy on the day Baby Jesus hopped out of the tomb.

Only children believe in the Easter Bunny. Only dipsh!ts believe rising fastballs actually rise.


Sam H doesn't understand physics. I know I'm shocked.
   62. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:06 PM (#3891310)
Also, Powderhorn, the fact that Jered will miss a spot by a foot in his next start doesn't obliterate anything. He'll also hit his spot more than a few times (in fact, he's likely to hit his spot more often than miss it by a foot). Doesn't that "obliterate" your counterargument? No, it doesn't.
   63. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:10 PM (#3891314)
>>>Look, even Rod Allen in the Tigers' booth thought that Weaver wasn't actually trying to hit Avila. This isn't really some crazy point of view here.<<<

Intent isn't the issue. People are saying that taking a chance with a headshot is very risky because "pin point control" is greatly exaggerated. Missing a guy's head within a 6 inch to a foot margin of error isn't cool.
   64. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#3891316)
The idea is that if he doesn't always deliver the ball within a foot of where he intends, then it's reckless of him to try to miss in that area and not a sign that he was taking care to be sure he only sent a message. Your argument, as a fanboy of the Tustin Baseball Club, is that his control is honed so much that he can throw the ball there without the batter being at risk. If he sometimes misses by that margin, then that is phooey.
   65. SoSH U at work Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:15 PM (#3891318)
Intent isn't the issue. People are saying that taking a chance with a headshot is very risky because "pin point control" is greatly exaggerated. Missing a guy's head within a 6 inch to a foot margin of error isn't cool.


Exactly. Jered Weaver misses his spot on occasion. Had he missed it on this occasion (which was a spot he generally never aims for), the consequences could have been horrible. You simply don't screw around up there, for obvious reason, no matter how much of a dick the previous guy was after taking you deep.
   66. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3891320)
Oh don't flatter yourself, you're far too pathetic to upset me.


You are acting like the asshats in the game on Sunday. We are trying to have a civil conversation here. Kindly refrain from your personal attacks. Thank you in advance.
   67. Zac Schmitt Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:19 PM (#3891321)
What bothers me about Guillen's actions is that he did it, what, four innings after the initial dust-up? Spur of the moment, emotional responses are one thing, but to put an incident that didn't even happen to you in your back pocket for the next time you happen to hit a homer off a pitcher seems really stupid. If Guillen really had a problem with Weaver, he should've aired it during his next at-bat.
   68. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#3891324)
I understand the argument. And as bads said in the other thread, perhaps behind the back is the best option. I do think above the head is better than the shoulder, though.
   69. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 02, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#3891331)
You are acting like the asshats in the game on Sunday. We are trying to have a civil conversation here.

There is nothing civil, in defending a guy for throwing a 92mph rock at an innocent man's head.
   70. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#3891343)
There is nothing civil, in defending a guy for throwing a 92mph rock at an innocent man's head.


Sure there is. Do you know what civility is? An argument can certainly be morally bankrupt and still be civil -- the converse is true also (often used by fanatics). People filled to the brim with morality are often the planet's biggest asses, especialy since intolerance has no place is a civilized discussion.

Shredder was certainly being civil in his discussion about this. Armed with morality, you tried to go all ninja on him. That didn't go so well.
   71. Greg K Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#3891345)
There is nothing civil, in defending a guy for throwing a 92mph rock at an innocent man's head.

I don't know, I'm on your side of the argument in general but you can do just about anything (and usually do it more effectively) with civility.
   72. MikeinMI Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#3891347)
Weaver got a 6 game vacation. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110802&content_id=22654102&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
   73. MikeinMI Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3891348)
What bothers me about Guillen's actions is that he did it, what, four innings after the initial dust-up?


In his other AB's he whiffed. Can't show him up walking back to the dugout.
   74. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#3891351)
Only one overreaction involved throwing a 92mph rock at someone's head. That (obviously) makes it different in kind.
   75. Greg K Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:29 PM (#3891366)
What bothers me about Guillen's actions is that he did it, what, four innings after the initial dust-up?

Can we get a bi-partisan timeline of this game? I've been a bit confused by a few references. As far as I can make out it goes something like this

2nd inning? - Magglio hits a homerun, Weaver gets upset

some later point - Weaver gets upset with Miguel Cabrera about something

6th inning - Weaver yells at Magglio for some reason

7th/8th inning? - Guillen hits a HR, acts like a dick. Weaver does his thing.

My only point being, it seems like rather than a quiet lull between dust-ups, there was a steadily building tension that Guillen sent over the boiling point.
   76. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: August 02, 2011 at 09:59 PM (#3891381)
"Ooooh, I can throw a baseball at you, look how tough I am" ########


Only one overreaction involved throwing a 92mph rock at someone's head.


You keep complaining about how Weaver could have caused a serious injury. Yet then you mock the fact that Weaver threw at Avila as if it's no big deal. So what is it?

If the Tigers had a beef with Weaver then Verlander should have plunked one of the Angels hitters. For Guillen to show up Weaver on a home run is a message without impact. On the other hand, a 92mph fastball does send a message that everyone can understand.
   77. Greg K Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3891383)
For Guillen to show up Weaver on a home run is a message without impact. On the other hand, a 92mph fastball does send a message that everyone can understand.

I don't know, Weaver seemed to understand the message pretty clearly.
   78. Zac Schmitt Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:04 PM (#3891385)
Can we get a bi-partisan timeline of this game? I've been a bit confused by a few references. As far as I can make out it goes something like this


I didn't see it either, but here's a take from Joe Posnanski today:

"In the bottom of the third, in a scoreless game, Weaver started off Magglio Ordonez with a hanging slider, and even though Ordonez at age 37 is pretty much spent as a hitter, well, muscle memory kicked in. He crushed the ball over the left-field wall.

That’s where the trouble began. Ordonez did walk slowly out of the box and watch the ball go over the fence. Ordonez has always seemed a classy player, and so my own sense is that he was just watching the see if the ball went fair or foul. Weaver, in the heat of the moment, was not quite so forgiving in his assessment. He clearly thought that Ordonez was trying to show him up. And he was also probably pretty ticked off that he threw a hanging slider. All of it led him to shout some rather course words at Ordonez, this in full view of the Tigers bench and the Tigers crowd and so on. OK. Put that in the memory bank.

Now, as they used to say on the old Notre Dame highlights show, we move to later action. It’s the bottom of the seventh. Verlander has now thrown seven no-hit innings. The score is 2-0 Detroit. Weaver pitches to Carlos Guillen, who has been a fine player in his career but has played in only 163 games the last three seasons combined — this was only his 14th game of the year. Guillen turns on a 3-2 fastball and hits a home run that is big for many reasons."


I don't know if Weaver had any other confrontations with Cabrera or Ordonez after the initial Ordonez home run.
   79. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3891388)
Sure there is. Do you know what civility is?

I do. The question is, do you? You seem to have it confused with politeness. And while the two are often synonymous, there is more to civility - that is conduct fir for civilized societies - than mere 'Thank you' and 'please'.
Throwing an object at an innocent man's head, with deadly force, is an act of sheer barbarsm. That act, and the defense of such an act have no place in a civiliced society. And they by no means deserve a polite response.
   80. JL Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#3891394)
What bothers me about Guillen's actions is that he did it, what, four innings after the initial dust-up? Spur of the moment, emotional responses are one thing, but to put an incident that didn't even happen to you in your back pocket for the next time you happen to hit a homer off a pitcher seems really stupid. If Guillen really had a problem with Weaver, he should've aired it during his next at-bat.

I interpreted it to be in response to the later exchange in the 6th inning, not the initial exchange in the 3rd. That is, Guillen felt that Weaver's complaints in the sixth were an extension of the earlier incidents and too much.

Also, I see Weaver was suspended 6 games.
   81. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#3891395)
Intent isn't the issue. People are saying that taking a chance with a headshot is very risky because "pin point control" is greatly exaggerated. Missing a guy's head within a 6 inch to a foot margin of error isn't cool.
So basically what your saying is that any time a pitcher tries to throw at the upper inner corner of the strike zone, he's being reckless, because he could miss by a foot a hit the batter in the head, even though he wasn't trying to do so. That will be a big surprise to major league pitchers.
There is nothing civil, in defending a guy for throwing a 92mph rock at an innocent man's head.
Which would be relevant if the ball were thrown at his head. Of course, it wasn't.
We are trying to have a civil conversation here. Kindly refrain from your personal attacks
There are a lot of people here who could call me loathesome for which I would genuinely be bothered. Of course, those would be posters that I've actually heard of before. I'm actually a little miffed from SOSH's comments, because I met him recently, and he seems like a nice guy, and while he made a comment about me not liking him, I've never carried internet grudges into real life. I literally don't think I've ever read anything from this a-hole before however, so I feel no need to be civil to him. I made no personal attacks toward any other BTFers until this c**cksucker chimed in. He's apparently had issues with what I've written before, but either never spoken up, or never did so in a way I cared about, so to call me out now for past comments is pretty gutless.
I don't know if Weaver had any other confrontations with Cabrera or Ordonez after the initial Ordonez home run.
There were words exchanged with Ordonez after he flew out later in the game (5th inning maybe?). Don't know what the beef was with Cabrera. I assume Cabrera was upset that Weaver stared down Magglio.
   82. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:42 PM (#3891401)
Can we get a bi-partisan timeline of this game? I've been a bit confused by a few references. As far as I can make out it goes something like this

2nd inning? - Magglio hits a homerun, Weaver gets upset

some later point - Weaver gets upset with Miguel Cabrera about something

6th inning - Weaver yells at Magglio for some reason

7th/8th inning? - Guillen hits a HR, acts like a dick. Weaver does his thing.

My only point being, it seems like rather than a quiet lull between dust-ups, there was a steadily building tension that Guillen sent over the boiling point.


Here is the actual timeline:

2nd or whatever inning -- Ordonez hits the HR, Weaver thinks he's granstanding and stares him down.

The next batter was Cabrera, who popped out to end the inning. Weaver gives Cabrera some words on his way off the field. Cabrera says, "Me?" Weaver gestures to the Tiger dugout. It seems obvious he's using Cabrera to tell Ordonez he's pissed.

6th inning -- Ordonez flies out, runs by Weaver on his way off the field, they exchange some words. It wasn't clear who "spoke" first, though it did appear that to be Ordonez, and almost certainly in response to whatever Weaver had told Ordonez via Cabrera. (It is also notable that Weaver stayed completely away from Ordonez in that at-bat, with all of his pitches either outside or on the outside part of the plate.)

8th inning -- Guillen etc.
   83. bads85 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3891406)
So basically what your saying is that any time a pitcher tries to throw at the upper inner corner of the strike zone, he's being reckless,


Reckless is too strong of a word. Anytime a pitcher throws in that location, he is taking a risk. Risks are part of the game, but risks are taken because of rewards -- rewards that involve winning a baseball game. Ballplayers certainly don't take the risks lightly either. Throwing six inches to a foot over a batter's head doesn't offer much of a reward or chance of winning a ball game, especially since there is a better way to send a message (the only reward in throwing over a guy's head).
   84. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:00 PM (#3891409)
Jered Weaver misses his spot on occasion. Had he missed it on this occasion
How do we know he didn't? Maybe he aimed two feet over his head just to be safe, and missed by the one foot margin everyone seems to be comfortable with.
   85. Spivey Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:02 PM (#3891411)
I don't think that Weaver wanted to hit Avila in the head, but if Avila didn't move, I think it would have come very, very close to hitting him in the head.
   86. Spivey Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:07 PM (#3891414)
How do we know he didn't? Maybe he aimed two feet over his head just to be safe, and missed by the one foot margin everyone seems to be comfortable with.

We don't. And that's why we all have to agree that it's a seriously dangerous play, even if you're just trying to send a message.
   87. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:19 PM (#3891417)
I'm actually a little miffed from SOSH's comments, because I met him recently, and he seems like a nice guy, and while he made a comment about me not liking him, I've never carried internet grudges into real life.


The not liking thing was a joke about my Red Sox fanhood and your rather open disdain for the species. I didn't think you harbored any longstanding BTF-induced grudge.

And I'm sorry, but I can't see anything other than support for laundry (or whatever strange fluid that's coursing through Hutcheson's veins) where Weaver's conduct is defensible. He, in an agitated state, threw a ball in the general direction of another player's head. Not just off the hands or the waist trying to establish the inside of the plate, but near his head.

I'm actually someone who doesn't think the occasional fastball to the lower ribs or off the hip is the worst thing in the world. But intentionally going above the shoulder, where I don't think a pitcher will have his best control (since he doesn't usually throw up there on purpose), should never be done. Period.
   88. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:25 PM (#3891420)
There are a lot of people here who could call me loathesome for which I would genuinely be bothered. Of course, those would be posters that I've actually heard of before.

Playing the seniority card, really? I suppose defending your position on it's merits would be too much like hard work. And I've been around here for 3-4 years, and we've had words before, maybe you need to have your memory checked.


c**cksucker

Oooh let's have another PC thread, those are always fun.
   89. BWV 1129 Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3891423)
Look, Weaver is around guys who know their baseball. Mike Scioscia can tell him, "Don't go near the head again. I know you were going above it, but that's dangerous. Go behind the back instead if you need to send a message again and not actually hit the guy," if that's really the best thing.

Verlander is around guys who know their baseball. Jim Leyland can tell him, "It's a 3-0 game and the guy bunts for hits all the time, you have to be ready and he's trying to win and because you threw the ball away, they almost did," and Verlander will be better-equipped to handle playing against guys who aren't quitting so that he can make history.

Guillen is around guys who know their baseball. Jim Leyland can tell him, "Are you kidding? You're lucky you didn't get someone killed," and then Guillen can go drunk driving.
   90. Shredder Posted: August 02, 2011 at 11:35 PM (#3891426)
I suppose defending your position on it's merits would be too much like hard work.
Ah yes, calling me loathesome was quite the meritorious argument. Funny how so many others on this thread were able to debate without taking it personal. And maybe you've missed it, but debating this on the merits is what us non-jagoffs have been doing for pretty much the entire thread. Go ahead and read through it again. You might be surprised to find out who the first person was to make a personal attack.
And I've been around here for 3-4 years, and we've had words before, maybe you need to have your memory checked.
More likely you have yet to write anything remotely memorable. I'm sure in a few months, this thread will be no exception.
The not liking thing was a joke about my Red Sox fanhood and your rather open disdain for the species.
It's always been more than a little tongue in cheek. I count at least scotto as one of my better friends from BTF.

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