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1. Rough CarriganI think it was the heat, to be honest. But either way, it made for some very entertaining theater.
Did he have a no-hitter at the time?
Hit him in the ribs or something instead.
I agree 100%. The way these things go, and looking at Guillen's classiness again, I think Avila is very lucky that Guillen pulled that on someone who wasn't actually going to hit a guy.
As I said in the other thread, the only rational thing for Guillen to do the next time he's due to face Weaver is to shoot him in the parking lot. Only in the leg since by sAM logic that's not serious.
When Weaver hits Guillen next year, it will be below the head. Though I guess he may choose to knock him down like he did Avila instead of hitting him.
I'm sure he'll charge the mound. Taking his bat would definitely be out of line. I have no idea what this "sAM logic" is or why I should answer for it.
And Shredder, the ball wasn't quite a foot over his head. I agree that it wouldn't have hit him even had he not ducked, but it wasn't a foot.
For this reason (and I don't think Shredder disagrees with this, though he might), Weaver has to be suspended, regardless of his intent. So does Guillen. I think that's an unfortunate, but necessary, outcome here, because I really did find the whole thing hugely entertaining. But it's the price of how they went about their business yesterday.
I don't really have a problem with intentionally throwing over someone's head, and I think pitchers would probably do a better job of not hitting a batter in the head if they aim high rather than try to pinpoint, say, the front shoulder.
Which was why Weaver was yelling at Miguel Cabrera as well...and then Weaver yelled at Magglio again in the 6th inning. Weaver was a punk and got treated like one.
Weaver was clearly just getting Cabrera to pass the message on to Ordonez. When I said that Weaver and Ordonez had their say, I was referring exactly to the 6th inning, when they jawed at each other (Ordonez running close to the mound to talk to him); there is no "again". As Torii said, everyone acted stupidly, but Guillen really escalated the punkery, acting in a way I have never seen a ballplayer act before.
Weaver will get suspended, and rightly so.
I thought both Weaver and Guillen were ##########. Weaver shouldn't have gotten into it with Ordonez in the first place. I never understood why pitchers are allowed to glare at hitters as they run the bases, in effect showing them but hitters are supposed to tone everything down. Of course what Guillen did was way over the line, as he didn't celebrate his home run as much as confront and openly taunt Weaver. He didn't have to fight Ordonez's battle.
Pitchers who are overly sensitive to home run admiring hitters should be sentenced to be soccer goalies. I want to see how they react to all the freaking individual and team routines that go on after goals.
Blair's an example of why I object. Nobody thinks Ken Tatum was throwing at Blair. Pitch just got away. But if you start out throwing high and you make a mistake -- and pitchers do all the time -- that particular mistake may have consequences. Jim Bouton and Sandy Koufax wouldn't brush hitters back because they feared exactly that.
And Cowens wasn't a charge the mound. That's pointless. Cowens got to the guy who had broken his jaw by waiting until he grounded out to short. Instead of heading to first Cowens headed to the mound. Nobody was in a position to come to Farmer's aid.
And maybe I'm wired wrong but I honestly don't see why bringing the bat isn't an appropriate response. (Cowens didn't. Actually getting his hands on Farmer -- who put Frank White on the DL in the same game he broke Cowens' jaw -- was enough to satisfy him.)
When I was in Saudi, everybuilding, from shop to hotel to shack to roadside diner had an AC. I figured they were govt provided as a necessity. It was, indeed, hot as hell.
It's not quite that easy to hit a guy - and the history of baseball dustups proves it.
Punishing heat.
And if you think that ball would have missed Avila's head by more than a foot, had he not ducked, then I want some of what you're smoking... Actually since it's pure Angel's fanboyism, I really don't.
*Sam H, of course is only distantly related to the species of homo sapiens.
But let me stress, that what Guillen did was completely classless. If I had hit that HR, I would have calmly rounded the bases... until about 10 feet from home plate, where I would have turned around and moonwalked to the plate. Finishing with a 1080 spin around, then grabbing my crotch with one hand, and pointed right at Weaver's face with the other. Do it right, or don't do it at all.
And ftr, I have never liked Guillen.
Is this a typo? I can't find any reputable source that calls him "Alexi".
What exactly did Magglio do that was stupid? I did not see the game, but from replays and descriptions, I don't see much that he did wrong.
Guillen felt he was standing up for a teammate. It was misguided and wrong. It was also done in an absolutely stupid way (I say this as a Tigers fan). But I am sympathetic to what he was trying to do. And Weaver acted like an absolute idiot.
This point might be relevant in a situation where a fastball has been aimed near someone's head. In the situation being discussed, where the fastball was aimed two feet above someone's head, it's less on point.
The idea that you should throw at the batter's body instead belies an apparently lack of understanding about how baseballs travel through space. Any pitcher who is sending a "message pitch" up there is going to throw a four seam fastball. That rises. If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels. The hitter, knowing well that Carlos Guillen has just put a target on his uniform by being an absolute asshat, is going to react naturally.
By ducking.
Ball high. Action on the ball rising. Player ducking. No real danger.
Ball "at the hip" or "at the back." Ball rising. Player ducking. More actual danger of getting hit somewhere else. This is why message pitches are thrown above the head or behind the runner.
I suppose we'll need to convert this basic baseball logic to some form of six decimal place mathematical formula for you lot to grasp it.
It'd difficult. I suggest like, a utility belt full of Kleenex. I cry a lot about this sort of thing, ya know.
To summarize, for anyone who doesn't want to wade through: Weaver throws for my guys, Beckett threw at my guys.
(FTR, I thought Beckett's actions were indefensible).
If you're ever in legal trouble, don't represent yourself. Hire someone.
I thought Beckett was a complete and thorough ####### in that game. Said so at the time. Will say it now. The upside is I don't have to schedule a chiropractic appointment to rectify the unnatural contortions a feller must endure to distinguish one act of flat jackassery from another.
No, it doesn't -- because of these little things called gravity and conservation of momentum. Rising fastballs don't really rise, just like the little Energizer Bunny doesn't bring the good kids candy on the day Baby Jesus hopped out of the tomb.
Only children believe in the Easter Bunny. Only dipsh!ts believe rising fastballs actually rise.
...explaining perfectly why no one has ever thrown a strike with a 4-seam fastball. You'd have to throw the damn thing underground!
Curious....where does the notion that it was about a foot or two higher than Avila's head come from? Educated guess? The only pitch f/x data I can find, since brooksbaseball does not have the exact matchup, is the overall plot for all pitches. This one shows, to a left handed hitter, a pitch just UNDER 6 feet and WAY inside. Avila is just under 6 feet tall. Am I reading that chart wrong? Is there another with more accurate data? Or is it a closer pitch then some of you are willing to admit and that's why a lot of folks find it immature and entirely indefensible?
Let's stop calling the pitch 2 feet above his head, that's quite far from the truth.
Specifically, "rising" fastballs fall less, which gives the illusion that they're rising.
re: the bean ball, I can tell you as a former pitcher that it's extremely difficult to hit someone in the head, particularly if that someone expects they're about to get thrown at. It's a small moving target about four feet away from where you've spent your entire life training to throw - just overriding the muscle memory is difficult. Most of the severe beanings that have occurred were mistakes rather than intentional. I'm sure there are examples, but I can't remember the last time someone meant to hit someone in the head and then actually succeeded in hitting them in the head. Weaver actually got a lot closer than I expected.
This may restart an old war that is perhaps better left in the past, but here it is, your moment of Zen.
If he had only trained in the javelin, think what he could have accomplished later that year.
What exactly did Magglio do that was stupid? I did not see the game, but from replays and descriptions, I don't see much that he did wrong.
Well, the "everyone" isn't literally meant to include every person there. I didn't think Ordonez did anything wrong, and I did think Jered overreacted to that. (I will say that the ball looked obviously fair off the bat watching on TV, so Ordonez's story there is suspect, though I will grant that his perspective from home plate might be worse than mine on my couch.)
As for the Beckett thing, my problem with his actions was that he immediately starting charging home plate after throwing the pitch, yelling at Abreu. Note that while Jered did bark at Cabrera about Ordonez, and then he and Ordonez exchanged words, at no point did he throw a pitch anywhere near Ordonez. He stayed entirely on the outer half of the plate.
Also, it's pretty silly to just ignore context, reputation, and history. Beckett has a rep of being a jackass. Weaver doesn't have this rep, and hasn't ever been in any contretemps like this before. If there were a pattern here, that would be one thing. There simply isn't.
I do wish he hadn't lost his temper over the Ordonez thing. I think he was justified in sending a message after Guillen escalated the situation in an unprecedented manner. I am torn about how he did it -- while I do agree that you shouldn't go after someone's head, I do think that he planned to do it in a way where he wouldn't hit Avila. And I'm glad he didn't hit him, because you don't want the baserunner there.
Basically, I'm for him knocking Avila on his ass, and I'm not convinced that the way he knocked him on his ass was the worst way to do so.
Kenny Powers.
What are you, an only child?
Not from home plate --- even the umpire was was moving up the line with his eyes fixed on the ball. The video clearly shows both Ordonez and the ump staring at the trajectory of the ball. There is absolutely nothing suspect about Ordonez's story -- he was clearly looking at the ball's flight.
With their whiny sneers, their "Ooooh, I can throw a baseball at you, look how tough I am" ########, and their skinny white trash carriages, the Weaver brothers define the term "punk." Jeff was a Tiger and I hated his guts -- as did many Tiger fans.
They're right up there with Danny Ainge and Claude Lemieux as most annoying athletes ever.
The most annoying athletes ever were the entire 1990 Detroit Pistons.
If I watch Jered's next start, I'll bet I see him miss the catcher's glove with a fastball by a foot at least once. If you think it was that close, your "hey he knows what he's doing and totally wouldn't hit the guy in the head" defense is obliterated.
Well, except for the "I just ate a hot bowl of steaming phlegm" sneer, which seems to have been inherited from the father.
Allen's views on the postgame spread are unknown to me.
Oh don't flatter yourself, you're far too pathetic to upset me.
Curious....where does the notion that it was about a foot or two higher than Avila's head come from? Educated guess? The only pitch f/x data I can find, since brooksbaseball does not have the exact matchup, is the overall plot for all pitches. This one shows, to a left handed hitter, a pitch just UNDER 6 feet and WAY inside. Avila is just under 6 feet tall. Am I reading that chart wrong? Is there another with more accurate data? Or is it a closer pitch then some of you are willing to admit and that's why a lot of folks find it immature and entirely indefensible?
Let's stop calling the pitch 2 feet above his head, that's quite far from the truth.
Thanks for the link. I can't understand how anybody could watch that and think the pitch was 7-8 feet from the ground. The catcher wouldn't have been able to snag it easily if it had for one. And it looked pretty close to the spot that Avila's head just vacated...
If you throw it above the hitter's head, it rises as it travels.
No, it doesn't -- because of these little things called gravity and conservation of momentum. Rising fastballs don't really rise, just like the little Energizer Bunny doesn't bring the good kids candy on the day Baby Jesus hopped out of the tomb.
Only children believe in the Easter Bunny. Only dipsh!ts believe rising fastballs actually rise.
Sam H doesn't understand physics. I know I'm shocked.
Intent isn't the issue. People are saying that taking a chance with a headshot is very risky because "pin point control" is greatly exaggerated. Missing a guy's head within a 6 inch to a foot margin of error isn't cool.
Exactly. Jered Weaver misses his spot on occasion. Had he missed it on this occasion (which was a spot he generally never aims for), the consequences could have been horrible. You simply don't screw around up there, for obvious reason, no matter how much of a dick the previous guy was after taking you deep.
You are acting like the asshats in the game on Sunday. We are trying to have a civil conversation here. Kindly refrain from your personal attacks. Thank you in advance.
There is nothing civil, in defending a guy for throwing a 92mph rock at an innocent man's head.
Sure there is. Do you know what civility is? An argument can certainly be morally bankrupt and still be civil -- the converse is true also (often used by fanatics). People filled to the brim with morality are often the planet's biggest asses, especialy since intolerance has no place is a civilized discussion.
Shredder was certainly being civil in his discussion about this. Armed with morality, you tried to go all ninja on him. That didn't go so well.
I don't know, I'm on your side of the argument in general but you can do just about anything (and usually do it more effectively) with civility.
In his other AB's he whiffed. Can't show him up walking back to the dugout.
Can we get a bi-partisan timeline of this game? I've been a bit confused by a few references. As far as I can make out it goes something like this
2nd inning? - Magglio hits a homerun, Weaver gets upset
some later point - Weaver gets upset with Miguel Cabrera about something
6th inning - Weaver yells at Magglio for some reason
7th/8th inning? - Guillen hits a HR, acts like a dick. Weaver does his thing.
My only point being, it seems like rather than a quiet lull between dust-ups, there was a steadily building tension that Guillen sent over the boiling point.
You keep complaining about how Weaver could have caused a serious injury. Yet then you mock the fact that Weaver threw at Avila as if it's no big deal. So what is it?
If the Tigers had a beef with Weaver then Verlander should have plunked one of the Angels hitters. For Guillen to show up Weaver on a home run is a message without impact. On the other hand, a 92mph fastball does send a message that everyone can understand.
I don't know, Weaver seemed to understand the message pretty clearly.
I didn't see it either, but here's a take from Joe Posnanski today:
I don't know if Weaver had any other confrontations with Cabrera or Ordonez after the initial Ordonez home run.
I do. The question is, do you? You seem to have it confused with politeness. And while the two are often synonymous, there is more to civility - that is conduct fir for civilized societies - than mere 'Thank you' and 'please'.
Throwing an object at an innocent man's head, with deadly force, is an act of sheer barbarsm. That act, and the defense of such an act have no place in a civiliced society. And they by no means deserve a polite response.
I interpreted it to be in response to the later exchange in the 6th inning, not the initial exchange in the 3rd. That is, Guillen felt that Weaver's complaints in the sixth were an extension of the earlier incidents and too much.
Also, I see Weaver was suspended 6 games.
2nd inning? - Magglio hits a homerun, Weaver gets upset
some later point - Weaver gets upset with Miguel Cabrera about something
6th inning - Weaver yells at Magglio for some reason
7th/8th inning? - Guillen hits a HR, acts like a dick. Weaver does his thing.
My only point being, it seems like rather than a quiet lull between dust-ups, there was a steadily building tension that Guillen sent over the boiling point.
Here is the actual timeline:
2nd or whatever inning -- Ordonez hits the HR, Weaver thinks he's granstanding and stares him down.
The next batter was Cabrera, who popped out to end the inning. Weaver gives Cabrera some words on his way off the field. Cabrera says, "Me?" Weaver gestures to the Tiger dugout. It seems obvious he's using Cabrera to tell Ordonez he's pissed.
6th inning -- Ordonez flies out, runs by Weaver on his way off the field, they exchange some words. It wasn't clear who "spoke" first, though it did appear that to be Ordonez, and almost certainly in response to whatever Weaver had told Ordonez via Cabrera. (It is also notable that Weaver stayed completely away from Ordonez in that at-bat, with all of his pitches either outside or on the outside part of the plate.)
8th inning -- Guillen etc.
Reckless is too strong of a word. Anytime a pitcher throws in that location, he is taking a risk. Risks are part of the game, but risks are taken because of rewards -- rewards that involve winning a baseball game. Ballplayers certainly don't take the risks lightly either. Throwing six inches to a foot over a batter's head doesn't offer much of a reward or chance of winning a ball game, especially since there is a better way to send a message (the only reward in throwing over a guy's head).
We don't. And that's why we all have to agree that it's a seriously dangerous play, even if you're just trying to send a message.
The not liking thing was a joke about my Red Sox fanhood and your rather open disdain for the species. I didn't think you harbored any longstanding BTF-induced grudge.
And I'm sorry, but I can't see anything other than support for laundry (or whatever strange fluid that's coursing through Hutcheson's veins) where Weaver's conduct is defensible. He, in an agitated state, threw a ball in the general direction of another player's head. Not just off the hands or the waist trying to establish the inside of the plate, but near his head.
I'm actually someone who doesn't think the occasional fastball to the lower ribs or off the hip is the worst thing in the world. But intentionally going above the shoulder, where I don't think a pitcher will have his best control (since he doesn't usually throw up there on purpose), should never be done. Period.
Playing the seniority card, really? I suppose defending your position on it's merits would be too much like hard work. And I've been around here for 3-4 years, and we've had words before, maybe you need to have your memory checked.
c**cksucker
Oooh let's have another PC thread, those are always fun.
Verlander is around guys who know their baseball. Jim Leyland can tell him, "It's a 3-0 game and the guy bunts for hits all the time, you have to be ready and he's trying to win and because you threw the ball away, they almost did," and Verlander will be better-equipped to handle playing against guys who aren't quitting so that he can make history.
Guillen is around guys who know their baseball. Jim Leyland can tell him, "Are you kidding? You're lucky you didn't get someone killed," and then Guillen can go drunk driving.
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