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Saturday, December 22, 2012

Joe Capozzi: Suspected cheats won’t taint my Hall of Fame ballot this year

Nor will just about anybody freakin’ else…as Capozzi only goes for Morris & Raines.

And I’m not ready to vote for Mike Piazza or Jeff Bagwell, two players who fall into the suspicion category even though they never failed a drug test and weren’t named in the Mitchell Report.

Maybe time will help voters gain a better perspective on the steroid era. But for now, I’d feel dirty if I voted for Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro or McGwire.

I might have 14 years to reconsider — because a player appears on the ballot for 15 years if he continues to receive at least 5 percent of the total votes cast each year.

...I gave careful thought to Craig Biggio, one of 28 players in history with 3,000 hits. But when I think of the most dominating players in the 1990s and 2000s, Biggio (3,060 hits) just doesn’t rank at the top.

Repoz Posted: December 22, 2012 at 09:48 AM | 33 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. JRVJ Posted: December 22, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4330868)
This is the type of ballot that is going to cause a Ballotgeddon this year.
   2. Eugene Freedman Posted: December 22, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4330869)
Well, it is a vote for Raines.
   3. escabeche Posted: December 22, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4330871)
"I won't vote for the guys I don't suspect of using steroids, because they were never really the dominant players of their era, and I won't vote for the dominant players of the era, because I suspect them of using steroids."

Are there really a lot of voters like this?
   4. Lassus Posted: December 22, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4330874)
This is the type of ballot that is going to cause a Ballotgeddon this year.

We're heading for the Ballot Cliff!


OK, well, even before I finished typing this stopped being funny. I do hope this year brings backlash against pinheads like this. He can't even manage to properly define his paranoid with hunt.
   5. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 22, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4330892)
"I won't vote for the guys I don't suspect of using steroids, because they were never really the dominant players of their era, and I won't vote for the dominant players of the era, because I suspect them of using steroids."

Are there really a lot of voters like this?


Probably not this extreme, but there don't have to be very many of them.

It only takes 150 voters (more or less) to keep someone out of the Hall of Fame - and there will probably be at least that many who apply some form of PED penalty.

-- MWE
   6. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 22, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4330900)
"I won't vote for the guys I don't suspect of using steroids, because they were never really the dominant players of their era, and I won't vote for the dominant players of the era, because I suspect them of using steroids."


What do you have against symmetry?
   7. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: December 22, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4330910)
And I’m not ready to vote for Mike Piazza or Jeff Bagwell, two players who fall into the suspicion category

Ah yes, the 'suspicion category.' It all makes sense now.
   8. Bored Posted: December 22, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4330912)
Although he doesn't have a vote, I was very disappointed to learn that Brian Kenny was one of these types as well this past week on Clubhouse Confidential. He wouldn't vote Piazza or Bagwell either due to "suspicion".
   9. Repoz Posted: December 22, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4330914)
I was very disappointed to learn that Brian Kenny was one of these types as well this past week on Clubhouse Confidential. He wouldn't vote Piazza or Bagwell either due to "suspicion".

You sit next to Larry Bowa long enough...soon your own pants start to stink.
   10. Sandlapper Spike Posted: December 22, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4330916)
I guess Murray Chass' campaign has succeeded, then.
   11. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4330917)
Cocaine good

PED bad
   12. Rough Carrigan Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4330919)
I've always been partial to the notion that, if PED use was as widespread as some claim, you were essentially back to the desired level playing field of no one using them and the players who performed the best over any significant period of time were the players who would have been best in a scenario where no one had them. So vote in the best players. And make any concern about records broken with the aid of PED's a separate issue.
   13. base ball chick Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4330924)
why is jack morris above suspiscion?
after all he DID manage to pitch well into his late 30s long after most power rightys are cooked and the only way he coulda lasted an entire 10 innings was with something to enhance that performance, right?

i mean, honestly. you talk about The Obvious
   14. BDC Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4330927)
Jack Morris would only have taken enough PEDs to win, not to set any records. Juicing to the score.

Somebody must have posted that one before :(
   15. JJ1986 Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4330931)
I understand that Bagwell has the mildest aura of suspicion - Astros clubhouse, he was named at least once in connection with a steroid dealer. There is literally nothing about Mike Piazza, though. People are just making stuff up because he hit home runs.
   16. ajnrules Posted: December 22, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4330935)
There is literally nothing about Mike Piazza, though. People are just making stuff up because he hit home runs.


And backne. Don't forget about that.

Jack Morris would only have taken enough PEDs to win, not to set any records. Juicing to the score.


That made me LOL. Even if somebody had posted it before, it's still well done. XD
   17. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 22, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4330936)
And I’m not ready to vote for Mike Piazza or Jeff Bagwell, two players who fall into the suspicion category

Ah yes, the 'suspicion category.' It all makes sense now.


Piazza and Bagwell are in the suspicion category, and Bobby Van and Elaine Joyce are with us in the Banana Section.
   18. Bob Tufts Posted: December 22, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4330938)
We can't go on together with suspicious minds.
   19. dlf Posted: December 22, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4330941)
Like either Admiral Ackbar or Vince Coleman, we're caught in a trap.
   20. base ball chick Posted: December 22, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4330944)
what IS this with "the astros cluhouse" and steroids???

who was using? who is the suspiscious trainer/entourage person/people? i mean, caminiti was gone BEFORE he started shooting up. (unless people are saying he brought them back in 99/2000 AFTER he stopped using)

what known/convicted roid user besides miguel tejada was in/around the clubhouse?

   21. bobm Posted: December 22, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4330954)
I was very disappointed to learn that Brian Kenny was one of these types as well this past week on Clubhouse Confidential. He wouldn't vote Piazza or Bagwell either due to "suspicion".

You sit next to Larry Bowa long enough...soon your own pants start to stink.


Do you actually expect an employee of MLB Network to pick anyone remotely controversial on the air or otherwise? He also stayed away from Bonds and Clemens and picked Dale Murphy since his good character put him over the top.
   22. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: December 22, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4330958)
We can't go on together with suspicious minds.

Not only do you get a Primey for that, Bob, but I just updated your wikipedia page with "Bob is a regular contributor to the Baseball Think Factory website" -- referencing this very thread.

I know. I'm scared, too.
   23. Suff Posted: December 22, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4330966)
what IS this with "the astros cluhouse" and steroids???


Yeah... I can't think of a single credible accusation (Mitchell Report, admissions, "leaked" positives, or even Canseco-type stuff) that links steroids to Astros while they were on the team. Caminiti gave a specific timeline for when he used, and it was after he left the Astros. McNamee's accusations against Pettitte and Clemens were before the Astros.

In fact, the Astros were one of the last organizations to have anyone dinged under the current testing/penalties.

If anything, the Caminiti narrative is evidence that Bagwell did NOT use, since Bagwell and Caminiti were friends for most of their time as teammates. If he was going to start using like his buddy, he probably would have started while they were teammates, wouldn't you think?

In fact, there are lots of guys who had late-career power jumps (the type usually associated with steroids under the current paradigm of suspicion) after LEAVING the Astros: Caminiti, Finley, Luis Gonzalez, for example. The Astrodome obviously had a lot to do with that, but park factors don't explain the jumps these guys had. Again, if these guys were taking steroids, it seems like they started (to feel the effects, at least) after leaving Houston.

I'm not being a fanboy (I know that it's likely that the Astros had some users, maybe Bagwell and Biggio, even). But it's really dumb that people think of them as some sort of "hub" like the late-'80s A's or early-90s Rangers (Canseco teams, basically) have the reputation of being.
   24. base ball chick Posted: December 22, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4330990)
suff

they were buddies the first time cammy was in the astros but he left in 04 to go to the padres, where he started using. he did NOT use while he was with the astros. he himself SEZ that he and bagwell/biggio were no longer friendly because of his alcoholism problem. he came back in 99, but cammy SEZ he had stopped the roids and The Media thinks that baggy began using BEFORE 99 - like, 92. or whatever their story is THIS time.

i'm not believing that didn't none of the astros goody 2 shoes guys ever use - i think of the 2 guys i really suspect like richard hidalgo and mitch melusky and i've always had strong suspiscions about mo alou - who was, by the way, for a LONG time, bagwell's best friend.

but youneverknow and for all we know, adam everett was shooting roids.

i know there was some guy at some houston area gym who knew this guy who knew a guy who knew bagwell's trainer. who is mary lou retton or her cousin or something. but except for jeff pearlman's Secret Source who has not given any real proof of anything, i don't know of ANYONE who gave/sold drugs to jeff bagwell.

trouble is that the guy decided to lift weights. and Real Ballplayers like junior griffey didn't work out
   25. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 22, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4331005)
On September 30, 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported that (Jason) Grimsley told federal agents investigating steroids in baseball that Houston Astros pitchers Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were users of performance enhancing drugs and that Baltimore Orioles's Miguel Tejada, Jay Gibbons, and Brian Roberts were users of "anabolic steroids".


Clearly, this taints the entire Astros organization for all time. Never mind that a United States magistrate subsequently stated that Grimsley had never mentioned Clemens and Pettitte in any context whatsoever, and criticized the Times for "irresponsible reporting" and "manufacturing of facts."

30 seconds or so of wikipedia can do a lot to clear up the suspicion category.
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 22, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4331029)
I understand that Bagwell has the mildest aura of suspicion - Astros clubhouse, he was named at least once in connection with a steroid dealer.

IIRC the person making the accusation backed down about five seconds after he was confronted and asked to elaborate.

------------------------------------------------

Suspected cheats won’t taint my Hall of Fame ballot this year


The only difference between this moron and some of his opponents is that while they're all fine with lumping known juicers with suspected juicers, this moron wants to use that assumption to keep the suspected ones out of the HoF, while his opponents want to use that same assumption to justify letting the known ones in. AFAIC they deserve each other, even though at this point it's morons like this who are likely to cause the most damage.
   27. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 22, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4331032)
what IS this with "the astros cluhouse" and steroids???

who was using?


Bagwell.
   28. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 22, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4331033)
I gave careful thought to Craig Biggio, one of 28 players in history with 3,000 hits. But when I think of the most dominating players in the 1990s and 2000s, Biggio (3,060 hits) just doesn’t rank at the top.


I would really like to be able to see who these guys have voted for in the past. OK, Biggio doesn't make his cut. Did he ever vote for say Steve Garvey or Tommy John, or Keith Hernandez?
   29. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 22, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4331049)
Last year, he only voted for Blyleven and Alomar. Morris and Raines were, I believe, also on that year's ballot.

Capozzi, one year ago: "When the time comes, I might end up casting votes for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens because I think they both put up Hall-worthy numbers before PED suspicions surfaced."
   30. John Northey Posted: December 22, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4331238)
Maybe he goes by a 2 man limit to 'keep the hall pure' or something.
   31. kthejoker Posted: December 23, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4331257)
You have to assume "the top" that Biggio isn't part of includes steroid users... Otherwise how?

What a catch 22 - if you're good enough to make the Hall you must've used steroids so you don't get my vote. If you didn't use steroids you weren't dominant and don't get my vote.
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: December 23, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4331362)

We should tie a stone around their necks, and toss 'em into the lake.
If they reach the surface, they are PED users and ineligible for HOF.
If not, they are inducted immediately - albeit posthumously..

   33. LargeBill Posted: December 23, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4331688)
At this point I've about reached the counter-intuitive position that if PED use was as prevalent as some assume, then I can't in good conscience support the Hall of Fame candidacy of anyone above suspicion because they obviously weren't doing everything they could to help their team win.

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