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Monday, March 20, 2017

Joe Girardi: Yankees prospects can reach Core Four heights | New York Post

“Now I don’t know if this group will reach that,’’ Girardi said, “but I think this is a broader group when you start talking the sheer number of kids that can really make an impact here. I’m really excited about the group. It’s really deep. You know it’s probably not going to work out for everyone of them, but when you watch them,’’ he said, then pointing to the field, “you feel like he’s going to play in the big leagues, he’s going to play in the big leagues and you just keep going on and on.’’

Girardi insisted he is not boasting to improve the trade value of some of the young players.

“This is what I see,’’ he said.

Jim Furtado Posted: March 20, 2017 at 06:21 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: prospects, yankees

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   1. JohnQ Posted: March 20, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5419793)
It seems a bit foolish to compare this young group of Yankee prospects with the 5 home grown players from the 1990's: Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, B. Williams & Posada. I don't really understand why B. Williams is just left out of the conversation with all that "Core Four" nonsense. Posada didn't become a starter until 2000. Jeter didn't become a starter until 1996. Rivera didn't become a starter until 1996. Petitte didn't become a starter until 1995, then spent 3 years with Houston. B. Williams was the there from that dynasty's inception in 1994 and was the key member along with Jeter during the first part of that run: 1994-2001.

It's not only that the Yankees developed those 5 players, it's that the Yankees were willing and able to resign them and keep them together in the modern day of free agency. Those players were also very durable not missing much time because of injury.

Here's their BWAR totals:

Jeter: 71.8
Pettitte: 60.8
Rivera: 57.1
B. Williams: 49.5
Posada: 42.7

A 70 WAR SS (Jeter), 60 WAR Pitcher (Pettitte), 57 WAR Reliever (Mariano), 49 WAR CF (Williams), and a 40 WAR catcher all making their MLB debut within 5-6 years of each other and playing 15+ seasons with their home grown organization.

I can't think off the top of my another home grown group that stayed together that long and were that productive since 1969. The Braves had Glavine and C. Jones and Andruw Jones but Smoltz came from a trade and Maddux was free agent. The Dodgers of 1974-81 had Cey, Garvey, Lopes, Sutton and Russell. But they never were as productive as those Yankees teams and Sutton was gone after 1980 and they basically broke up after 1981.

The Reds Big Red Machine of 1970-1981 had Bench, Rose, Perez, Concepcion and Griffey. Morgan & Foster came from trades. Rose left for the Phillies in 1979. Perez left after 1976. And then there was no free agency in the first part of that dynasty.
   2. Leroy Kincaid Posted: March 20, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5419805)
Poor Bernie: Left out because people like rhymes.
   3. Sleepless in Munich Posted: March 20, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5419811)
I don't really understand why B. Williams is just left out of the conversation with all that "Core Four" nonsense.

I remember him being part of the narrative when he was still playing. But he lost his spot on the team and the other four played together for a few more years. "Core Four" became the moniker for them, the Yankees ran with it for marketing purposes, and it hasn't changed back even after all of them retired.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: March 20, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5419817)
A 70 WAR SS (Jeter), 60 WAR Pitcher (Pettitte), 57 WAR Reliever (Mariano), 49 WAR CF (Williams), and a 40 WAR catcher all making their MLB debut within 5-6 years of each other and playing 15+ seasons with their home grown organization.


If you're going to hold Smoltz's pre-big league trade against him, then surely Andy's Houston years (and subsequent New York ones) can't go in the Yankee column.
   5. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 20, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5419823)
Poor Bernie: Left out because people like rhymes.

"Jive Five" just doesn't have the same mystique and aura about it.
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5419858)
Is it possible that "core four" was first used to describe the others and Williams while Pettite was on the Astros?
   7. Brian Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5419862)
Posada didn't become a starter until 2000.


Posada became the starting catcher in 1998 (409 PA versus Girardi 279)
1999 - Posada 437, Girardi 229
   8. Sleepless in Munich Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5419864)
The hype about the Yankees' youth movement gets more and more absurd by the day. If just one of their prospects/recent graduates has a 40 WAR career like Jorge Posada, that would be a huge success. But instead we are talking about re-creating the Core Four, using comparisons to Trout and Mays (the recent Gleyber Torres thread) and so on.
   9. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5419877)
It seems a bit foolish to compare this young group of Yankee prospects with the 5 home grown players from the 1990's: Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, B. Williams & Posada. I don't really understand why B. Williams is just left out of the conversation with all that "Core Four" nonsense.

I think that was because by the time that Sports Illustrated ran a cover feature on Jeter/Mo/Posada/Pettitte in 2010, the fifth member (Bernie) had already retired. I don't recall that particular term being widely used before then.
   10. GordonShumway Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5419897)
Also, the "Core Four" all were rookies in 1995, the first year the Yankees made the playoffs after a 14 year drought. Bernie was of the Maas/Meulens generation of prospects that made its mark in the late 80s/early 90s.

What's interesting is that other than Jeter, none of the four were particularly highly regarded at the time. Jeter was ranked #4 by BA in 1995, and #6 in 1996. Pettitte was ranked #49 in 1995. Neither Rivera nor Posada were ever ranked in BA's Top 100.

It's interesting that the Yankees' highest rated prospect at the time, ranked #2 by BA in 1995 and #3 in 1996, is pretty much forgotten today.
   11. Greg Pope Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:45 PM (#5419913)
The Braves had Glavine and C. Jones and Andruw Jones but Smoltz came from a trade and Maddux was free agent.

I think the Braves get credit for Smoltz. Trading for a minor leaguer and then developing him should count.

Similarly, the Cubs should get credit for Russell, but not Rizzo.
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5419914)
What's interesting is that other than Jeter, none of the four were particularly highly regarded at the time. Jeter was ranked #4 by BA in 1995, and #6 in 1996. Pettitte was ranked #49 in 1995. Neither Rivera nor Posada were ever ranked in BA's Top 100.

And yet at some point during Spring training in 1996 The Boss was disparaging Jeter, probably because he was in a 5 game slump or something.
   13. TJ Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5419927)
A 70 WAR SS (Jeter), 60 WAR Pitcher (Pettitte), 57 WAR Reliever (Mariano), 49 WAR CF (Williams), and a 40 WAR catcher all making their MLB debut within 5-6 years of each other and playing 15+ seasons with their home grown organization.

I can't think off the top of my another home grown group that stayed together that long and were that productive since 1969.


Nothing against Steinbrenner and the Yankees, but it must have been nice to have a bankroll large enough to afford keeping all five of those guys...
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 20, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5419929)
"Jive Five" just doesn't have the same mystique and aura about it.

"Five Alive" worked pretty well as an '80s juice beverage, but I guess it probably wasn't laudatory enough for a group of players.
   15. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 20, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5419938)
Nothing against Steinbrenner and the Yankees, but it must have been nice to have a bankroll large enough to afford keeping all five of those guys...

Not to mention being able to shake off all the expensive free agent duds like Pavano and the Fat Toad without even batting an eyelash.
   16. Lassus Posted: March 20, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5419940)
I really have to wonder when that stupid nickname started, because it's so clunky and forced.
   17. Leroy Kincaid Posted: March 20, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5420098)
I really have to wonder when that stupid nickname started, because it's so clunky and forced.


Every thread isn't about Harvey.
   18. Lassus Posted: March 20, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5420106)
Every thread isn't about Harvey.

I'll admit "The Dark Knight" is dumb, but it's not even near "The Core Four" on the clunky and forced scale.
   19. Leroy Kincaid Posted: March 20, 2017 at 08:41 PM (#5420313)
I'll admit "The Dark Knight" is dumb, but it's not even near "The Core Four" on the clunky and forced scale.


No argument here. "Jive Five" occurred to me as well and "Five Alive" popped in my head but didn't remember what it was, Odd how these things stick in your mind.
   20. PreservedFish Posted: March 20, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5420327)
More like the SNORE FOUR amiright?
   21. JJ1986 Posted: March 20, 2017 at 09:18 PM (#5420329)
"Core Four" was about picking out players who were truer Yankees than A-Rod was. No one actually used the term during the Yankees dynasty.
   22. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 20, 2017 at 10:28 PM (#5420353)
I don't really understand why B. Williams is just left out of the conversation with all that "Core Four" nonsense.

The term was coined after the 2009 World Series, to tie together the players who won 5 WS, an achievement unsurpassed in the 3-tier playoff era. Bernie was part of a larger group (including Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill & David Cone) who were there for the first four.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:43 AM (#5420409)
He's right. It's close but the kids pull it out by a few cm.

Pettitte 196 cm
Jeter 190 cm
Posada 188 cm
Rivera 188 cm
(Williams 188 cm)

Judge 201 cm
Bird 193 cm
Sanchez 188 cm
Torres 185 cm
(Frazier 185 cm)
(Sheffield 178 cm ... a shrimp)




   24. Ardo Posted: March 21, 2017 at 03:12 AM (#5420412)
I can easily foresee a Cubs-Yankees World Series in 2019 or 2020. In that case, who would hit the "called shot"?
   25. Ithaca2323 Posted: March 21, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5420488)
The term was coined after the 2009 World Series, to tie together the players who won 5 WS, an achievement unsurpassed in the 3-tier playoff era.


While true, this is sort of stupid, considering Posada had 14 PA in 1996 and none in the postseason. It's like including Luis Sojo as a part of the group of players who was on all six pennant-winning teams from 1996-2003. The logical reason was spelled out in #10. Williams was a rookie in 1991, an everyday starter in 1993 and an established star by 1995 (.307/.392/.487, 6.4 WAR) so he pre-dated those four.

The whole Core Four thing really seemed like a slap in the face to Williams (as far as these things can be considered important.) The literal reasoning aside, the connotation, to me, always seemed to me to be not "These guys all played on all five WS winning teams" but "these four were the core of the latest Yankees' dynasty."

Posada started less than half of the Yankees postseason games in 1998 (6 of 13) and 1999 (5 of 12). The 2009 WS title always seems so removed from the rest of them, even given the players who were on all of the teams. Maybe it's because the gap encompassed the entire Yankees career of Mike Mussina, a guy who ranks 10th in franchise history in pitcher WAR. But mentally, I just look at 96-00 as its own entity, which means I consider Williams a much more integral part than Posada. I also just never liked Posada
   26. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 21, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5420623)
"Core Four" was about picking out players who were truer Yankees than A-Rod was.

Could there be a truer Yankee than a steroid user who was the ultimate front runner in deciding where he was going to play while cashing the biggest paychecks in the game?
   27. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5420629)
"Core Four" was about picking out players who were truer Yankees than A-Rod was.

Could there be a truer Yankee than a steroid user who was the ultimate front runner in deciding where he was going to play while cashing the biggest paychecks in the game?



And as the Yankee-est Yankee of them all, Babe Ruth once said while standing on a chair, “All right, ladies, any girl who doesn't want to fuck can leave right now!" A-Rod's busy dating sheet shows that he is the true pinstriped heir to the legendary Sultan of Twat.
   28. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5420640)
I can easily foresee a Cubs-Yankees World Series in 2019 or 2020. In that case, who would hit the "called shot"?

Certainly not a Yankee, because if a Steinbrenner's still sitting in the owner's box, any pinstriper who tried that would be hit with a hefty fine for Conduct Unbecoming a Yankee Gentleman.
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:16 PM (#5420644)
The whole Core Four thing really seemed like a slap in the face to Williams (as far as these things can be considered important.) The literal reasoning aside, the connotation, to me, always seemed to me to be not "These guys all played on all five WS winning teams" but "these four were the core of the latest Yankees' dynasty."

Once again, "Core Four" was a term popularized by Sports Illustrated in the Spring of 2010, well after Williams had retired. Check out the link to their cover story that I posted yesterday in #9.
   30. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:19 PM (#5420647)
The 2009 WS title always seems so removed from the rest of them, even given the players who were on all of the teams. Maybe it's because the gap encompassed the entire Yankees career of Mike Mussina, a guy who ranks 10th in franchise history in pitcher WAR.


There's also the fact that one of the Core Four was able to leave the team via free agency, win 37 games and pitch in the World Series for a team in the other league, then return before the Yankees had made it back to another World Series, yet still be a part of the Core Four.

For Yankee fans, Pettitte's sojourn in Houston seems to be as much a part of his history as his HGH use.
   31. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: March 21, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5420662)
Could there be a truer Yankee than a steroid user who was the ultimate front runner in deciding where he was going to play while cashing the biggest paychecks in the game?

Pettitte never cashed the biggest paycheck in the game.
   32. Ithaca2323 Posted: March 21, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5420696)
Once again, "Core Four" was a term popularized by Sports Illustrated in the Spring of 2010, well after Williams had retired. Check out the link to their cover story that I posted yesterday in #9.


You should re-read my post. The cover clearly illustrates *exactly* what I was referring to when I made it:

"The heart of the Yankees Dynasty broke in together 16 seasons ago..."

My argument is that the connotation of the term, as it's used by fans in conversation now, more closely mirrors the first part of that sentence, as opposed to what follows.
   33. Ithaca2323 Posted: March 21, 2017 at 02:45 PM (#5420697)
There's also the fact that one of the Core Four was able to leave the team via free agency, win 37 games and pitch in the World Series for a team in the other league, then return before the Yankees had made it back to another World Series, yet still be a part of the Core Four.


Yeah, this too.

   34. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: March 21, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5420793)
I can easily foresee a Cubs-Yankees World Series in 2019 or 2020. In that case, who would hit the "called shot"?


Jason Heyward.

Plot twist: he does it as a Yankee.

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