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Friday, February 10, 2012

Joe Posnanski: Aging (with chart!)

Here’s what I did: According to Baseball Reference, there have been 1,084 seasons among hitters of 6.0 Wins Above Replacement or better (since 1901). These are most of baseball’s best years for hitters, and they range from Babe Ruth’s absurd 1923 season (.393/.545/.764, 41 homers, 131 RBIs, 151 runs, 170 walks) to Adrian Gonzalez’s 2010 season (.298/.393/.511 with 31 homers, 101 RBIs, 87 runs, playing in that hitter’s graveyard in San Diego).

These are not ALL the fabulous seasons in baseball history by any means … but they are most of them. It doesn’t really matter for this particular post if you like WAR or hate it — all that matters here is that a 6.0 WAR season usually makes the player an MVP candidate. Last year’s hitting candidates in the American League were Jacoby Ellsbury (7.5), Jose Bautista (8.5), Curtis Granderson (5.2) and Miggy Cabrera (7.1). In the National League, they were Ryan Braun (7.7), Matt Kemp (10.0), Prince Fielder (5.2), Justin Upton (4.1) and Albert Pujols (5.4).

So, 6.0 seemed like a pretty good cutoff point.

Then I looked to see at WHAT AGE those players had their good seasons. That’s what gives us the chart above. I was not nimble enough to make the chart as readable as I would like, but I think you get the picture. As you can see, there are only a few players who had such a great season at age 20 or 21. And there were very few players who had such a great season at age 39 or 40. The bulk of them were in their mid-to-late 20s.

I’ll go through the ages year-by-year, because I think it’s kind of interesting … though I admit that probably says more about me than it does about the information.

Thanks to Phil.

Repoz Posted: February 10, 2012 at 09:38 PM | 27 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, projections, sabermetrics

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   1. villageidiom Posted: February 10, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4058576)
WARNING! Junk chart.

It's an interesting way to look at aging, and it's somewhat relevant to the question of whether you can expect MVP-caliber seasons out of older players. But that's about as far as I'd go with it.
   2. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: February 10, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4058585)
[1] Hey, Joe Posnanski articles mean Joe Paterno discussion!
   3. John Northey Posted: February 10, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4058610)
What would help is a base to compare it to. For example, if at age 20 there are 9 guys but that represented 10% of all 20 year olds who played everyday (I know, it should be a lot lower than that) vs age 27 being 0.5% of all full season age 27'ers then you can say that a 20 year old who earns a slot has to be close to an MVP calibre player while the age 27'ers who earn an everyday slot just have to be replacement level. Don't know what the actual facts are as I'm not about to run the numbers right now but it would change things a bit. Same for age 40.
   4. Bob Evans Posted: February 10, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4058621)
Fun pozt from Poz.
   5. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: February 11, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4058633)
I haven't seen Galen around here for a long time.
   6. Ron J Posted: February 11, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4058641)
#3 Something which might help. Here's the number of players (by age) with consecutive seasons of 300+ PAs. 1955-1999. In other words, 36 players were playing regularly at 20 and 21.

Age  Number 
20      36  
21     109  
22     217  
23     379 
24     514  
25     650  
26     723  
27     699  
28     658  
29     599  
30     503   
31     413  
32     348  
33     255  
34     185  
35     130  
36      90   
37      65   
38      41  
39      24  
40      14 


EDIT: Not perfect because we're talking different time frames, and players drop out every now and then due to injury and then pop back in, but still likely a decent indicator of the age distribution.
   7. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: February 11, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4058650)
#3 Something which might help. Here's the number of players (by age) with consecutive seasons of 300+ PAs. 1955-1999. In other words, 36 players were playing regularly at 20 and 21.


One of the amazing things about Microsoft Excel is that, in 2012, afaict, I still can't copy that column of numbers, and paste it, and have the program recognize that it should be separated into two columns. Without, hopefully, knowing some secret trick.

Is there a way to do this, without saving to a text file, and then importing?
   8. Dale H. Posted: February 11, 2012 at 01:32 AM (#4058662)
Select the column, choose Data then Text to Columns, then pick the delimiter. Here, since the spaces are actually \A0 characters, you need to (before doing the Text to Columns) click in a cell and copy one character for pasting in the delimiter spot later.
   9. tigertears Posted: February 11, 2012 at 01:50 AM (#4058667)
#3 -- your metric is interesting, but I am not sure how it is a baseline for Posnanski's numbers. I would guess that 20-21 y/os with meaningful ABs would either be exceptional players or on terrible teams.
   10. Bhaakon Posted: February 11, 2012 at 02:02 AM (#4058673)
What would help is a base to compare it to. For example, if at age 20 there are 9 guys but that represented 10% of all 20 year olds who played everyday (I know, it should be a lot lower than that) vs age 27 being 0.5% of all full season age 27'ers then you can say that a 20 year old who earns a slot has to be close to an MVP calibre player while the age 27'ers who earn an everyday slot just have to be replacement level. Don't know what the actual facts are as I'm not about to run the numbers right now but it would change things a bit. Same for age 40.


It's useful to know the number players of each age, but unless were assuming that the people running teams are completely incompetent (ie: no better than random chance) in identifying MPV-right-now talents in their farms systems, we should probably also be looking at the total number of professional players (minors and majors) rather than just major leaguers. Otherwise we'd be vastly understating the rarity of extremely young players having that type of season.

   11. shoewizard Posted: February 11, 2012 at 06:00 AM (#4058701)
When you look at a chart like that it makes you think that teams should "overpay" in trades for good players through age 24 with a lot of perceived upside, and then extend them through age 29 or 30, and trade them by their age 29 season.

   12. cardsfanboy Posted: February 11, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4058967)
I agree with post three, it's not really a useful chart unless you know what percentage of players at that age the chart represents. If 10% of age 40 players are having mvp seasons vs 2% at age 28, then identifying which players should still be playing at 40 is where the skill in a gm lies.

I don't think that knowing the ages of all players in professional baseball is important at all.
   13. zachtoma Posted: February 11, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4058976)
[2] Sadly, yes, and I simply can't countenance an unrepentant scumbag such as Joe Posnanski being linked to here at a site full of right-minded, morally upstanding folks. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Poz may just as well have raped those boys himself. I don't trust him any farther than I can throw him, and only as long as I'm throwing him in front of an oncoming train, which is all that creeps like him deserve.
   14. Liver of blaspheming 'zop Posted: February 11, 2012 at 07:03 PM (#4059013)
Football coach WAR (Winks At Rape) has a remarkable peak at advanced ages. But WWWACWWAR (Writers Who Wink At Coaches Who Wink At Rape) curiously seems to peak at Posnanski's age.
   15. Guy LeDouche Posted: February 11, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4059040)
"Football coach WAR (Winks At Rape) has a remarkable peak at advanced ages. But WWWACWWAR (Writers Who Wink At Coaches Who Wink At Rape) curiously seems to peak at Posnanski's age.


This whole Penn State thing has to have been a huge kick in the balls for Poz. One second, you think you have a chance to write a bestseller, a father's day gist staple, about an iconic, respected figure. A chance to get into the Mitch Albom shlock zone, and then this happens.
   16. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4059058)
Please stop.
   17. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: February 11, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4059080)
Let's change the subject to something that has a marginal relationship to the posted topic. I've been obsessively reading old rsb threads for the past couple of days now. Here's a fun excerpt from 1993 that makes a marvelous example of the unpredictability of pitchers:

1) This season, Mike Trombley will be 26. (born 4/14/67)
Older then desirable for a prospect? Perhaps. But looking at his
minor league record would indicate that he would have been an
ML-average pitcher for the last two seasons. It's not Trombley's
fault that the Twins took their time calling him up. Too much
fiddling around with Paul Abbott, if you ask me.

As an aside, Banks will be 24 this season, and Mahomes will be 22.


Of those pitchers, Abbott had by far the most successful major league career--but the successful part didn't start until several years later.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 11, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4059089)
I saw Pat Mahomes pitch once, back in 2003.

He wasn't any good, but he was less bad than I'd expected. Which is something, I guess.
   19. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: February 11, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4059091)

Please stop.


If only Paterno had said that much to Sandusky...

... Sorry, had to. I'm actually with you on this one. I find it a bit hard to believe that a site that, generally, thinks you can separate talent from character (Hall of Merit?) is incapable of doing so with Poz. I frankly have no idea of what kind of person Poz is, and I could care less. He's an excellent baseball writer and this was a fun piece to read. Speaking of which...

This generally cuts against something I had long assumed, which was that the age-27 peak was less applicable to MVP caliber talents. Granted, this isn't the perfect study for it (scaling oWAR by age for players with >60 oWAR might be better for these purposes.) Still, a fun diversion.
   20. bobm Posted: February 12, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4059139)
[3] What would help is a base to compare it to. For example, if at age 20 there are 9 guys but that represented 10% of all 20 year olds who played everyday (I know, it should be a lot lower than that) vs age 27 being 0.5% of all full season age 27'ers then you can say that a 20 year old who earns a slot has to be close to an MVP calibre player while the age 27'ers who earn an everyday slot just have to be replacement level. Don't know what the actual facts are as I'm not about to run the numbers right now but it would change things a bit. Same for age 40.

Of the 1,084 players with WAR of 6+, only 8 did it in 500 PA or fewer in non-strike seasons (18 total), per BB-REF PI. I decided to use "Qualified for batting title (3.1 PA per game)" as my proxy for "played everyday."

Age 27 is the peak age for share of regular players. The share of 6+ WAR players among regulars seems to drop from age 20 to a fairly stable and flat between 21 and 32.
Age #Qual      %   6+W     %
20     59   0.4%    9  15.3%
21    191   1.4%   17   8.9%
22    394   2.9%   30   7.6%
23    637   4.7%   53   8.3%
24    896   6.7%   78   8.7%

25  1,167   8.7%  101   8.7%
26  1,320   9.8%  115   8.7%
27  1,386  10.3%  113   8.2%
28  1,315   9.8%  110   8.4%
29  1,221   9.1%  103   8.4%

30  1,148   8.5%   79   6.9%
31    943   7.0%   82   8.7%
32    777   5.8%   68   8.8%
33    614   4.6%   44   7.2%
34    471   3.5%   31   6.6%

35    348   2.6%   25   7.2%
36    237   1.8%   12   5.1%
37    155   1.2%    6   3.9%
38     97   0.7%    6   6.2%
39     59   0.4%    1   1.7%

40     28   0.2%    1   3.6%
   13,463 100.0%  
   21. bobm Posted: February 12, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4059154)
[20] Some random thoughts on the aging data, leaving aside whether the regulars are 6+ WAR stars or not:

Over the period 1901-2011, the peak age for share of regular players in any given year varies mostly between 25-30. From looking at the data, the pattern seems to be that a given age class or generation (eg all regular players whose age-20 season would have been in 1964, 21 in 1965, 22 in 1966 etc.) tends to be the peak of the population for 3-6 years, until another, younger age class takes over. It seems like a series of mini population booms among the annual generations of regular players. Not surprisingly, those classes are the ones with above-normal shares of regulars among older players, which occur in periodic waves. The biggest change over time is the "disappearance" of young regulars, ie 20-23, in the last 20-30 years.

   22. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: February 12, 2012 at 03:55 AM (#4059188)
This thread should have been derailed into a Sandusky or Windows tips thing, but now we're dangerously close to talking about baseball.

It seems like it's been several hundred years since the World Series ended.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: February 12, 2012 at 04:17 AM (#4059189)
This thread should have been derailed into a Sandusky or Windows tips thing, but now we're dangerously close to talking about baseball.

It seems like it's been several hundred years since the World Series ended.


no thread on this site should ever be derailed because some ####### idiot wants to pretend that sandusky is ####### baseball news.... Pos is BY FAR the best baseball writer on the planet, and to waste any space on some off hand comment about a guy(paterno) who isn't really a major part of the story, is to focus on the morons. You are by literal definition, a moron if you bag on Pos because of his defense of Paterno.

anyway, good article, let's keep the ####### idiots out of this thread..


   24. zachtoma Posted: February 12, 2012 at 04:24 AM (#4059191)
PS [13] is the most sarcastic thing I've ever written and is meant as a caricature of certain recent Posnanski threads in which some posters relished in displaying a pitiful vindictiveness.
   25. Something Other Posted: February 12, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4059347)
This generally cuts against something I had long assumed, which was that the age-27 peak was less applicable to MVP caliber talents. Granted, this isn't the perfect study for it (scaling oWAR by age for players with >60 oWAR might be better for these purposes.) Still, a fun diversion.
I'll venture Posnanski's study bears no necessary relation at all to the stars' aging curve.
   26. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: February 12, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4059439)
I find it a bit hard to believe that a site that, generally, thinks you can separate talent from character (Hall of Merit?)


I don't think Hall of Merit voters are at all typical of readers of this site, for good or ill.
   27. bobm Posted: February 13, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4059567)
[20] Same data, but for pitchers, from BB-REF PI

Of the 557 pitcher-seasons with WAR of 6+, only 4 did it in fewer than 1 IP per team game, per BB-REF PI. I decided to use "Qualified for league ERA title" as my proxy for "played everyday."

Age 26-27 is the peak age for share of regular pitchers. The share of 6+ WAR pitchers among regulars at each age seems to drop from age 19 to 24, then rises to a peak at about age 35 and then falls off through age 42. This is a different shaped curve than that for hitters, and maybe this implies different aging behavior for pitchers versus hitters (and of star pitchers versus other everyday pitchers).

Age #Qual       %  6+W    %
19     14    0.2%    1 7.1%

20     57    0.7%    4 7.0%
21    148    1.8%    8 5.4%
22    267    3.3%   19 7.1%
23    441    5.4%   28 6.3%
24    611    7.5%   33 5.4%

25    757    9.2%   46 6.1%
26    798    9.7%   51 6.4%
27    804    9.8%   54 6.7%
28    767    9.4%   54 7.0%
29    667    8.1%   44 6.6%

30    598    7.3%   46 7.7%
31    531    6.5%   42 7.9%
32    424    5.2%   28 6.6%
33    350    4.3%   26 7.4%
34    281    3.4%   19 6.8%

35    218    2.7%   20 9.2%
36    147    1.8%   12 8.2%
37    102    1.2%    8 7.8%
38     76    0.9%    5 6.6%
39     53    0.6%    4 7.5%

40     45    0.5%    3 6.7%
41     28    0.3%    1 3.6%
42     15    0.2%    1 6.7%
    8,199  100.0%  557 6.8%

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