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Wednesday, February 19, 2014

Joe Poz: No. 52: Wade Boggs

When you see the perfect third baseman in your mind, who do you see? Schmidt with his compact swing, as perfect as a short right hook? Brett turning on a Goose Gossage fastball? Brooksie diving to his right and throwing off-balance? Mathews hitting another titanic home run?

And now ask: Where does Wade Boggs fit in that picture?

gehrig97 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:22 PM | 68 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wade boggs

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4659366)
57. Derek Jeter
56. Chipper Jones
55. Ernie Banks
54. Rod Carew
53. Steve Carlton
52. Wade Boggs

Negro Leaguers: Bell, Rogan, Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams, (partial Irvin and Campanella)
Japan: Oh (partial Ichiro)
19th Century Players: Radbourn, Nichols
Active Players: Ichiro, Cabrera, Jeter
   2. sinicalypse Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4659372)
awwww damn. there's no chance that vlad makes this, eh?
   3. AndrewJ Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:13 PM (#4659382)
Put it this way: Boggs never received a first-place MVP vote. Not one. We often talk about the best players who never won an MVP. Boggs probably has a lock on best player to never even receive one MVP first-place vote.

It's what Bill James wrote back in the 1990s -- MVP voters prefer the surprise player over the consistent great player. Tony Gwynn hit .350 and created enormous value, but the writers would shrug and say, "Eh, Gwynn always hit .350 every year," and give the award to McGee or Pendleton.
   4. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4659383)
When you see the perfect third baseman in your mind, who do you see? Schmidt with his compact swing, as perfect as a short right hook? Brett turning on a Goose Gossage fastball? Brooksie diving to his right and throwing off-balance? Mathews hitting another titanic home run?


Though Boggs is absolutely my favorite kind of player (moustache, weird personality, one freakshow talent, that kind of thing), Eddie Mathews is maybe my favorite player whose career ended before I was born. I used to watch him on the reruns of "Home Run Derby" they played on ESPN back in the good old days, and he had to have had one of the most beautiful swings of any lefty batter ever. He was also skinny, with broad shoulders, and though he wasn't nearly the hitter that Teddy Ballgame was, there's a certain respect in which his physical presence in the game was very similar to the older man's.

Here's a video, very brief, of some of Mathews' highlights.
   5. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:34 PM (#4659393)
I grew up a White Sox fan in the 1980's. When I picture a third baseman, I think Steve Lyons, Tim Hulett, Eddie Williams, and Kenny Williams. Vance Law is the best case scenario.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:45 PM (#4659397)
Poz will go with Brett for the KC connection but:

Brett 22-37: 314/382/511, 146 OPS+, 452 Rbat, 86 WAR, 1533 starts at 3B in 9300 PA
Boggs 24-39: 331/420/447, 134 OPS+, 443 Rbat, 90 WAR, 2018 starts at 3B in 9900 PA

Outside of those years, Brett added only 2 WAR (3 oWAR) and another 140 starts at 3B in 2349 PA -- quite awful. Boggs added only 1.2 WAR and another 147 starts at 3B but at least in only 817 PA.

There's not a lot to separate them but I'll give the slight nod to Boggs based on longevity at 3B (and he was solid defensively until age 41 according to bWAR) and a slight edge on in-season durability. (81 strike vs. 94 strike roughly balance.)

Chipper 24-39: 307/405/538, 143 OPS+, 535 Rbat, 80 WAR, 1747 starts at 3B in 9600 PA

The WAR difference is bigger than I'd have guessed -- it's mostly defense (loses about 5 wins to Brett, about 12 wins to Boggs). He did add another 5.7 WAR and 221 starts at 3B in 1054 PA outside of this stretch which is better than either.

So take your pick among those 3. Banks is a question of how you are weighting peak vs. career -- I can see an argument that he was "greater" than these guys, he just got hurt. Carew was one of my favorite players as a kid but I think I'd have to slip him behind Jones at least. His offense is more similar to Boggs but a bit behind and he moved to 1B at 30 (and was never a strong defender at 2B).

This is all splitting hairs .... as you might expect in the middle of a ranking.
   7. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:59 PM (#4659398)
It's what Bill James wrote back in the 1990s -- MVP voters prefer the surprise player over the consistent great player. Tony Gwynn hit .350 and created enormous value, but the writers would shrug and say, "Eh, Gwynn always hit .350 every year," and give the award to McGee or Pendleton.


Of course. The MVP award has always been misnamed; it's the NOY, the Narrative of the Year award.
   8. Danny Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:15 PM (#4659404)
Boggs probably has a lock on best player to never even receive one MVP first-place vote.

I'd say Randy Johnson, though maybe it's cheating to go with a pitcher.
   9. toratoratora Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4659420)
He played Fenway the way Clapton played guitar.

What a great line
   10. Neal Traven Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4659427)
He played Fenway the way Clapton played guitar.


IOW, not as well as Richard Thompson.
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4659437)
I fully realize that postseason games are nothing but "exhibitions" and "small sample size" to some people, but for my money I'd take Brett over Boggs and Jones in a blink, especially over Boggs.

Postseason series / games / OPS

Brett: 9 / 43 / 1.023
Jones: 21 / 93 / .864
Boggs: 9 / 39 / .723

Beyond the numbers, how many signature moments in October did Brett have? Most people would lose count trying to remember all of them.

How many did Chipper have? There must have been at least a few key hits that a Braves fan would remember. since an .864 OPS over 93 games is more than respectable.

But as for Boggs, his "signature moment" in postseason play was riding a horse around Yankee Stadium.
Beyond that, his key (though admittedly critical) contribution was a timely walk.
   12. Swoboda is freedom Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4659441)
But as for Boggs, his "signature moment" in postseason play was riding a horse around Yankee Stadium.

Boggs also didn't get a lot of chances when he was younger. A lot of his PAs were when he was 37-39 years old.
   13. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4659442)
IOW, not as well as Richard Thompson.


Or Kim Simmonds, or Billy Gibbons, or Joe Bonamassa.

hey. let's turn this into a guitar thread.
   14. shoewizard Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:53 PM (#4659445)
Well, they are all going to be looking up at Adrian Beltre before he is through.......(i kid i kid)
   15. vivaelpujols Posted: February 20, 2014 at 02:37 AM (#4659488)
Joe Bonamassa.


What are you nuts? If you're going with blues players in the 2000's you can find 500 guys on youtube who are as good as Bonamassa.

I'll take Mascis, Hendrix and Gilmour at least over Clapton.
   16. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 04:32 AM (#4659491)
I think folks are missing the obvious here. boggs didn't just have a home field advantage. he had an ADVANTAGE.

it skews everything.

look, great player. enjoyed watching him play

but here is something to consider. boggs slugged .527 in fenway. without looking name the ballparks where boggs had a slugging percentage of over .450 in more than 100 plate appearances (which is a really low bar correct?)

(pauses)

two. two ballparks.

now just think of the number of ballparks where boggs slugged LESS than .400 in more than 200 plate appearances

(pauses)

seven. seven ballparks

look, I know all about sample size and all the other factors at work in this type of snapshot comparison

but THIS is what people saw. he was EXACTLY what the red sox and were concerned about. he poked at the ball and drew walks. he played mediocre defense. he couldn't run. nobody could anticipate that he would exploit fenway as he did. that he would become awesome playing at home

THAT is what made boggs great. if he does NOT do that he was kevin seitzer.

so I would not be so harsh on those mvp voters back in the day. this was a real tough thing to reconcile. how much credit do you give a player when away from his favorite ballpark he's a slightly average player but nothing remotely special?

just something to consider

   17. just plain joe Posted: February 20, 2014 at 08:36 AM (#4659508)
I grew up a White Sox fan in the 1980's. When I picture a third baseman, I think Steve Lyons, Tim Hulett, Eddie Williams, and Kenny Williams. Vance Law is the best case scenario.


It could have been worse, you might have grown up a Cubs fan. That would have gotten you Lenny Randle, Ken Reitz, several seasons of Ron Cey (in his statue period), Keith Moreland and, completing the Chicago MLB double, Vance Law. To be fair Ryne Sandberg played third in his first season with the Cubs, and put up a 90 OPS+
   18. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 09:05 AM (#4659519)
#52 alltime for Wade Boggs?

That's a pretty high ranking for a pitcher with an ERA only 4 points better than Jack Morris.
   19. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 09:07 AM (#4659520)
so I would not be so harsh on those mvp voters back in the day. this was a real tough thing to reconcile. how much credit do you give a player when away from his favorite ballpark he's a slightly average player but nothing remotely special?


'85 - .799 OPS, 130 sOPS+
'86 - .929 OPS, 165 sOPS+
'87 - .959 OPS, 162 sOPS+
'88 - .872 OPS, 158 sOPS+
'89 - .744 OPS, 119 sOPS+

Road numbers for those years. Outside of '89 he was much better than 'slightly average player but nothing remotely special'. Boggs obviously benefited from playing in Fenway, but he was still a great hitter.
   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4659539)
jack

save for 1986 and 1987 all other seasons boggs power remained at home

I agree boggs merited more attention from voters

but he came in with a rep as being a singles hitter, etc, save for those two seasons on the road when voters saw him away from fenway he fit that profile and folks are inclined to not budge from first impressions unless there is something really dramatic to change their views

I am not claiming voters were right. just that it's somewhat understandable given the context

   21. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 09:44 AM (#4659542)
Boggs had 100+ PA in 18 different ballparks. His OBP was over .400 in 7 of them, over .370 in all but 4.

Those 4:

Tropicana (.350), his home park at the tail end of his career.

Oakland (241/338/304) in 393 PA. It's always been a tough park to hit for average, plus they had pretty good pitching for a good stretch of Wade's career. Still a bit surprising, as one of the key features of the park (foul territory to catch popups) shouldn't affect a man famed for never hitting popups.

Memorial Stadium (.360) and Camden Yards (.325). Perhaps the city's cuisine featured too many crab cakes and not enough chicken for his liking. It's not the pitching, as after Wade's first 2 seasons in the league the Oriole pitching generally sucked.
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4659558)
arom

correct. boggs could always get on base.

but how many baseball writers/voters even today appreciate obp?

exactly.

I know I am possibly being construed as 'anti-boggs' or some silliness. all I am trying to do is provide some context to the 'How could a guy like this never get a first place mvp vote?'

   23. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4659572)
I know I am possibly being construed as 'anti-boggs' or some silliness. all I am trying to do is provide some context to the 'How could a guy like this never get a first place mvp vote?'


It's still pretty inexplicable that a BOSTON writer didn't even vote for him as the MVP once.
   24. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4659577)
Boggs' best chance at MVP was in 1987, but the team stuck that year. The year before that you had Clemens getting all the attention.
   25. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4659584)
Once again we forget that the MVP should be called the NOY. Boggs never made for a very interesting narrative, at least not to writers and the casual fans that keep them employed. He pokes the ball over infielders and into the corner and takes walks, he's not gregarious, he's not imposing, he's not hyper-athletic, he's not a great interview (and so not a Clubhouse Leader).
   26. dave h Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4659585)
Harveys, "MVP voters don't properly appreciate OBP" is a different argument than you first made, which was that Boggs wasn't that great away from home, and isn't much of a defense of MVP voters regardless.
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4659589)
awwww damn. there's no chance that vlad makes this, eh?


I wouldn't think so. I mean, I'm already in my 30s and I've never even played a game as a pro.
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4659592)
Once again we forget that the MVP should be called the NOY. Boggs never made for a very interesting narrative,

Except for those narratives about his mistress, his sex addiction, and his equally strong addiction to chicken. He got more ink for those than he'd have gotten for winning the triple crown.
   29. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4659593)
Hahaha, that's a very good point. Not the kind of thing you get a NOY award for, but you can't deny they made him famous.
   30. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4659597)
There was a post here years ago about Boggs going to Africa to hunt wild animals and calling himself the "great white hunter" or something like that.
   31. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4659601)
Harveys, "MVP voters don't properly appreciate OBP" is a different argument than you first made, which was that Boggs wasn't that great away from home,


No, it's the same argument. Harvey's is saying Boggs wasn't great away from home by traditional stats. OBP was brought up to refute this, but it is a red herring.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4659606)
I will say the same thing as I am likely assuming some givens that are not necessarily givens

--3rd base was/is regarded as something of a power position
--boggs away from fenway had minimal power
--boggs retained most of his on-base skills away from fenway
--viewers outside of fenway saw a player at a 'power' position who got on base and hit some doubles
--viewers outside of fenway saw a player who looked to be ok defensively but not great
--viewers outside of fenway saw a player who couldn't run particularly well
--getting on base has always struggled to 'get some love'

a non-boston viewer could pretty easily come to the conclusion that boggs was a 'fenway creation'

now, the counters to this are guys like dante bichette getting a second place in mvp voting in the 90's.

and to the above post, why wouldn't a boston viewer give the player some credit? a very legit point

anyway, like boggs. great player. belongs in the hof

just working to explain why voters may have looked elsewhere.

   33. zonk Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4659613)
It could have been worse, you might have grown up a Cubs fan. That would have gotten you Lenny Randle, Ken Reitz, several seasons of Ron Cey (in his statue period), Keith Moreland and, completing the Chicago MLB double, Vance Law. To be fair Ryne Sandberg played third in his first season with the Cubs, and put up a 90 OPS+


That's unfair to Cey -- yeah, he was fall down left/fall down right on defense, but he posted OPS+s of 118, 107, 94, and 138 (about half a season of PAs) in his 4 year with the Cubs. His defense - or really, his range, he remained pretty sure-handed and reliable - dragged him down overall (-1.4, -0.7, -0.9, and -0.9), but he was generally just shy of a 2 WAR player most of his time (1.7, 1.6, 0.9, and 1.8).

Cey was my favorite player growing up so I always feel the need to defend him :-)
   34. dave h Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4659615)
He was still a .300 hitter away from Fenway. If your point was that he had a larger-than-average home-field advantage, no argument. And if your argument is that MVP voters don't care about BA (nevermind OBP) and that explains the lack of MVP votes then, well, this argument is going to get very short. The only thing I'll add to that is that even if he had a normal home-field advantage he still wouldn't have gotten MVP support because a high BA/OBP, low HR/RBI guy never got support. Rickey Henderson did somewhat better in the voting, but he hit 28 HR in his MVP year.

EDIT: And why did I always think Kevin Seitzer had an L in his name?
   35. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4659619)
And if your argument is that MVP voters don't care about BA (nevermind OBP) and that explains the lack of MVP votes then

pretty clear you are trolling. I never mentioned batting average.

have a good day
   36. PreservedFish Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4659621)
As a kid of the 80s, I can say that Boggs was universally viewed by the unwashed youthful masses as among the best in baseball and a no-brainer Hall of Famer.
   37. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4659623)
Cey was my favorite player growing up so I always feel the need to defend him :-)
I didn't like the Cubs, but anybody who saw what Ron Cey looked like and didn't root for him is dead inside.
   38. zonk Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4659626)
I didn't like the Cubs, but anybody who saw what Ron Cey looked like and didn't root for him is dead inside.


There are better nicknames, of course, but 'The Penguin' might be the most appropriate... the man truly waddled.
   39. Ron J2 Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4659632)
#6 Looking at their respective peaks they are extremely close. In their 5 best seasons Brett put up a 161 OPS+, Boggs a 158. But Boggs was more weighted to OBP plus he played a little more so Boggs comes out with a .5 edge in both WAR and oWAR. IOW at their respective best the difference is in the noise.

And they both have 8 seasons with 5+ WAR at 3B (Brett has another with 1B as his primary position, Boggs has one more season with 7+ WAR).

All in all any difference in total WAR comes from the fact that Boggs was better in the time neither was playing at a star level and I'm not sure how much that should impact a "greatness" list. Tie breaker I suppose.
   40. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4659633)
EDIT: And why did I always think Kevin Seitzer had an L in his name?


Where? Kelvin Seitzer? Kevin Seltzer?
   41. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4659634)
zonk

he is one of those guys who didn't LOOK like he could even play but the results were good to great.
   42. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4659636)
As a kid of the 80s, I can say that Boggs was universally viewed by the unwashed youthful masses as among the best in baseball and a no-brainer Hall of Famer.

well sure, you weren't a baseball writer so you didn't really understood what made for winning baseball

//that's a joke and if anyone sumb8tch wanders in to try and shove that up my 8ss then I will know for sure that bbtf as I knew it is dead
   43. just plain joe Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4659642)
That's unfair to Cey -- yeah, he was fall down left/fall down right on defense, but he posted OPS+s of 118, 107, 94, and 138 (about half a season of PAs) in his 4 year with the Cubs. His defense - or really, his range, he remained pretty sure-handed and reliable - dragged him down overall (-1.4, -0.7, -0.9, and -0.9), but he was generally just shy of a 2 WAR player most of his time (1.7, 1.6, 0.9, and 1.8).


That was during the height of my Cub fandom and I wanted Cey to succeed as much as anyone. You are right that he was sure-handed during his time with the Cubs, it was just too bad that his range had evaporated completely. Cey could still hit then so, overall, you are right in stating that he had positive value for the Cubs. However, when they replace you at third base with Keith Moreland, you have to know the end is near.
   44. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4659646)
Where? Kelvin Seitzer? Kevin Seltzer?


L'Kevin Seitzer, which would've gotten him a prime spot on the Reggie Cleveland All-Stars.
   45. BDC Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4659647)
The little bit of imagery in TFE is interesting because except for Robinson, it's all about offense. And basically, 3B as hitters aren't different from any other hitters.

I do have tons of mental imagery of excellent 3B: Robinson, Nettles, Aurelio Rodriguez, Schmidt, Pendleton, Gaetti, Chavez, Beltre – even Scott Brosius, for that matter, who was a very efficient if not exactly stunning defender. But Boggs is very hard to summon up, though I saw him play a lot and have a lot of memories of him batting. You didn't often notice he was out there at third base. And that's not a criticism. Sometimes you don't want your 3B to be all that glaringly obvious, unless he really is Graig Nettles.
   46. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4659654)
As a Red Sox fan who was eight years old when Boggs broke in during the '82 season, he was a HOF guy as soon as it became clear that he could get on baseball seemingly at will.

I remember watching the game that really gave Boggs his chance to play every day. June 23, 1982 - Boggs was on the roster, but defending batting champion Carney Lansford is playing third base at that time. Playing Detroit, Jack Morris is getting lit up pretty well by the Sox, and Lansford hits one into the Triangle that gets away, and Lansford goes for the inside-the-park HR. Play at the plate, he's out...and he hurts his leg on the collision.

Eight-year-old me is extremely concerned that we've just lost one of our best players, and this guy with the funny name is going to play the rest of that game (and beyond).

Here's another funny thing: The Red Sox had a total of five Hall of Famers appear in that game for them (the Tigers, with Morris, Whitaker, Trammell, Gibson, Evans, and Parrish, had none). Can anybody name the five without looking? (Obviously, one is Boggs...)
   47. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4659655)
ron cey was the guy who on 8/7/84 made me a great dad as I took the boys to the doubleheader and ron cey homered and drove in 5 runs as the cubs swept the mets.

everybody had a great time. thanks ron cey
   48. dave h Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4659656)
pretty clear you are trolling. I never mentioned batting average.


WTF? I thought we were pretty much agreeing, and am now totally confused.

Where? Kelvin Seitzer? Kevin Seltzer?


And now I'm really confused. I thought it was Seltzer. I don't know if I misread a baseball card or heard it that way, although googling leaves me even more confused because I found at least one card that spelled it that way. Typo? Two different people? Aaah!
   49. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:15 PM (#4659659)
steve

five red sox hall of famers who were on team and playing in 1982.

yaz, rice, boggs, tony perez................?
   50. dlf Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4659664)
five red sox hall of famers who were on team and playing in 1982.

yaz, rice, boggs, tony perez................?


Eck
   51. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4659671)
dlf

of course.

bah...........I always remember the position guys but not the pitchers.

rats
   52. AndrewJ Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4659700)
But as for Boggs, his "signature moment" in postseason play was riding a horse around Yankee Stadium.

Before that, it was probably his crying in the dugout after Game 7 of the 1986 Series.
   53. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4659702)
yaz,rice evans, boggs, tony perez................?


FTFY.
   54. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4659713)
jack

i don't think it's necessary to re-open that can of worms.................
   55. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4659725)
jack

i don't think it's necessary to re-open that can of worms.................


Eh, it's true though, Evans>Rice. It ties in to the comments about how Boggs was perceived. Evans wasn't the power hitting outfield the mold says he 'should' have been, but he was a better player than Rice.


   56. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4659732)
As a kid of the 80s, I can say that Boggs was universally viewed by the unwashed youthful masses as among the best in baseball and a no-brainer Hall of Famer.
I was an unwashed Red Sox fan but still, I think this was widely true. Though I have to assume that the "Wade Boggs .356" candy bar was not available nationally.

One of the things I remember fondly about Boggs in his prime was the tough at bats where he would foul away pitch after pitch after pitch until you wondered if he could do it at will until the pitcher's arm fell off. And then (seemingly inevitably) a liner for a single.

Edit: Upon further review the candy bar was .352.
   57. AROM Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4659733)
The Red Sox had a total of five Hall of Famers appear in that game for them


I skipped all comments since the question to give this my best shot.

1982 - Yaz, Rice, Boggs, Eckersley.....Fisk was in Chicago by then...Was Tony Perez there in 82?
   58. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4659753)
And now I'm really confused. I thought it was Seltzer. I don't know if I misread a baseball card or heard it that way, although googling leaves me even more confused because I found at least one card that spelled it that way. Typo? Two different people? Aaah!
Harry Caray said "John Krux" for the first few years of Kruk's career, so I thought I had an error card the first time I saw this "John Kruk" spelling.
   59. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 01:59 PM (#4659757)
arom

correct
   60. alilisd Posted: February 20, 2014 at 02:54 PM (#4659822)
a non-boston viewer could pretty easily come to the conclusion that boggs was a 'fenway creation'


Boggs in his first seven full seasons had at least 200 hits in every one of them, and won five batting titles. He could have been Ichiro if he'd wanted to!
   61. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 20, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4659833)
ali

ha, ha
   62. dave h Posted: February 20, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4659880)
Harry Caray said "John Krux" for the first few years of Kruk's career, so I thought I had an error card the first time I saw this "John Kruk" spelling.


Which leads me to the story of my sister being totally flabbergasted when she went to the Football Hall of Fame and discovered that Franco Harris was not, in fact, an Irishman.
   63. BDC Posted: February 20, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4659897)
The top batters at Fenway, 1980-2000, minimum 700 PAs there:

Player                OPS   PA  HR RBI   BA  OBP  SLG BAbip
Jose Canseco        1.005  715  48 140 .314 .400 .605  .344
Mo Vaughn            .993 2301 119 396 .326 .419 .574  .385
Wade Boggs           .991 3803  52 388 .369 .464 .527  .386
Nomar Garciaparra    .954 1370  52 235 .336 .385 .569  .341
Reggie Jefferson     .928  818  25 123 .345 .384 .544  .400
Tom Brunansky        .915 1036  47 176 .293 .366 .549  .309
Dwight Evans         .898 3385 134 498 .284 .387 .511  .304
Mike Greenwell       .869 2564  64 387 .312 .379 .490  .312
Jim Rice             .866 2797 101 458 .312 .369 .496  .336 


Not out to prove anything, just found it interesting per se and I love it that B-Ref lets me do it :-D
   64. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: February 20, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4660007)
Which leads me to the story of my sister being totally flabbergasted when she went to the Football Hall of Fame and discovered that Franco Harris was not, in fact, an Irishman.
We do still have Shaquille O'Neal.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: February 21, 2014 at 01:09 AM (#4660099)
Unfortunately he only played there rarely and that mostly at the end of his career but BEHOLD!

Kingman at Fenway: 276/345/816 with 13 HR in 84 PA. 21 hits, 62 TB.

I've pointed out before that I never understood why the Red Sox never grabbed him. Kingman did 5 things -- strikeout, hit life-threatening ground balls to the left side, hit mile-high pop-ups to SS, hit half-mile-high flyballs to the warning track in LF, hit HRs that went 500 feet. At Fenway those flyballs and, on a windy day, the popups go for HRs.

His career Wrigley numbers were also pretty staggering for the era: 297/360/608 with 69 HR in 940 PA. He also hit an impressive 20 HR in 214 PA in Dodgers Stadium and 20 in 225 in Fulton County but the BA wasn't that good.
   66. valuearbitrageur Posted: February 21, 2014 at 02:30 AM (#4660102)
but here is something to consider. boggs slugged .527 in fenway. without looking name the ballparks where boggs had a slugging percentage of over .450 in more than 100 plate appearances (which is a really low bar correct?)

(pauses)

two. two ballparks.

now just think of the number of ballparks where boggs slugged LESS than .400 in more than 200 plate appearances

(pauses)

seven. seven ballparks

look, I know all about sample size and all the other factors at work in this type of snapshot comparison

but THIS is what people saw. he was EXACTLY what the red sox and were concerned about. he poked at the ball and drew walks. he played mediocre defense. he couldn't run. nobody could anticipate that he would exploit fenway as he did. that he would become awesome playing at home


How many times does this old saw have to be rebutted before it dies?

Any hitter who spends enough of his career in a hitters park will ALWAYS have larger than normal home/road splits. It's a mathematical rule that a large enough sample size will make inevitable.

You take two hitters, one who hits in Fenway or Coors, and another who hits in a pitchers park. The first hitter struggles on the road, because his road parks are a collection of the toughest in the majors to hit in, that don't include the most favorable park, his home park! The other guy hits as well or better on the road, enough to overcome a historic league average of around 4% worse hitting on the road, because he's given the best road parks in the majors to hit in that don't include his lousy home park and do include the best hitting park in the league, whether it be Fenway or Coors in his era.

The Wade Boggs of this world when on the road, not only have the to deal with the typical 4% decline, but get handed another 5-10% or more due to their tough road parks.

The idea that Wade Boggs is a creation of Fenway, is for all I can see, simply "narrative". Observers trying to theorize on causality without really understanding the causes. If you don't understand the mathematical requirement that all road stats normalize to bigger spreads for hitters with the best hitting home parks, how can you begin to unravel the influence of the Green Monster from Wade's career numbers?

Every hitting stat we have tells us Wade was monster hitter, from OPS+ to more advance stats. Cherry picking road numbers when they are mathematically biased for Fenway and Coors hitters is lame and simpleminded.
   67. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 21, 2014 at 04:31 AM (#4660107)
kt

you could read more carefully. that would help

i was working to explain what folks saw and how that narrative built resulting in boggs not getting any first place mvp votes. the 1980's viewer of baseball was less sophisticated than today's version.

how many times did i write that boggs was great? how many times did i write that boggs belonged in the hot? several

sorry you could not resist being insulting

and i am done here. so if you are going to continue with more insults then your 'target' won't be available.
   68. valuearbitrageur Posted: February 21, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4660261)
sorry you could not resist being insulting

and i am done here. so if you are going to continue with more insults then your 'target' won't be available


Dear Harveys,

Please accept my apology for my insulting post.

I wasn't trying to target you, I was targeting the general perception that still exists, even on this board. I was trying to use the material I quoted from you as an example of it, which is why I didn't quote the rest.

I apologize for insulting you, and for doing such a poor job of writing that made it appear to be my intention. It was a late night post done without an edit for reasonableness, one that it really needed.

KT

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