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Monday, March 03, 2014

Joe Poz: Top 50 Contest

Read the link. Even if you don’t officially submit, I’m sure we could have some fun guessing his rankings (set to begin Wednesday).

FYI, 51 was Junior Griffey.

Blastin Posted: March 03, 2014 at 08:40 AM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: rankings

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 03, 2014 at 11:29 AM (#4665332)
Some subgroups so far:

Negro Leaguers: Bell, Rogan, Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams, (partial Irvin and Campanella)
Japan: Oh (partial Ichiro)
19th Century Players: Radbourn, Nichols
Active Players: Ichiro, Cabrera, Jeter

What's the over/under on Negro Leaguers, Japan players, and 19th century players in the first 50?

Oh, and since there ate 51 players in the second 50, there could be more than 50 in the first 50.
   2. The District Attorney Posted: March 03, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4665358)
Our story thus far:

100. Curt Schilling, 99. Cool Papa Bell, 98. Ron Santo, 97. Lou Whitaker, 96. Ichiro Suzuki, 95. Mariano Rivera, 94. Paul Waner, 93. Craig Biggio, 92. Old Hoss Radbourn, 91. Robin Roberts, 90. Mark McGwire, 89. Bullet Rogan, 88. Tim Raines, 87. Nolan Ryan, 86. Miguel Cabrera, 85. Barry Larkin, 84. Frankie Frisch, 83. Gaylord Perry, 82. Roberto Alomar, 81. Joe Jackson, 80. Johnny Mize, 79. Smokey Joe Williams, 78. Ryne Sandberg, 77. Ozzie Smith, 76. Buck Leonard, 75. Tony Gwynn, 74. Hank Greenberg, 73. Arky Vaughan, 72. Willie McCovey, 71. Monte Irvin, 70. Duke Snider, 69. Sadaharu Oh, 68. Bert Blyleven, 67. Harmon Killebrew, 66. Roy Campanella, 65. Kid Nichols, 64. Eddie Murray, 63. Charlie Gehringer, 62. Robin Yount, 61. Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell, 60. Brooks Robinson, 59. Reggie Jackson, 58. Turkey Stearnes, 57. Derek Jeter, 56. Chipper Jones, 55. Ernie Banks, 54. Rod Carew, 53. Steve Carlton, 52. Wade Boggs, 51. Ken Griffey Jr.

I don't anticipate Poz going too crazy with foreign leagues or the 19th century. No Japanese players, and the only guys debuting before 1900 will be Cy, Honus, Nap, Cap. (And the omission of Cap wouldn't at all surprise me.) Gibson, Paige, Charleston and Lloyd from the Negro Leagues. A-Rod and Pujols the only actives.
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: March 03, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4665397)
You don't think Ichiro is going to make the top 50? I can see an argument for not including him of course, and think it's a stretch to include him that high, but I also think it's a legitimate possibility.
   4. Blastin Posted: March 03, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4665401)
Ichiro was 96.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: March 03, 2014 at 01:04 PM (#4665429)
oops, I missed that. Looked at the list on post one and had thought it was listing players who haven't been named yet (which is pretty sad, since I knew that Cabrera, Jeter and Oh had been named....we'll just call it a massive brain fart)
   6. G.W.O. Posted: March 03, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4665454)
#1 yes, there were 51 named already, but one of those was Roy Hobbs of the New York Knights, so it's reasonable to assume they'll be another 50 non-fictional players
   7. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: March 03, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4665460)
If Lou Whitaker is #97, does that mean Trammell is Top 50, or that the author rates Whitaker ahead of Trammell?
   8. Blastin Posted: March 03, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4665476)
He had a special OH #### I FORGOT TRAMMELL post right after he wrote about Jeter.
   9. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 03, 2014 at 01:56 PM (#4665499)
#1 yes, there were 51 named already, but one of those was Roy Hobbs of the New York Knights, so it's reasonable to assume they'll be another 50 non-fictional players


Hobbs was put on, but then taken off again; I think Jeter went in that spot.

Gibson, Paige, Charleston and Lloyd from the Negro Leagues.


Martin Dihigo is my longshot to join this group.

I've been wondering if Trammell isn't going to be inserted into the second fifty retroactively, in which case it'll have 52 players.
   10. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: March 03, 2014 at 02:02 PM (#4665510)
He also alluded to Trammell indirectly when he had the tie between Bagwell and Thomas. He said he wished he had put two other players as a tie, but didn't mention who they were - the general assumption was that he meant Trammell and Whitaker.
   11. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: March 03, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4665567)
I have 57 players that I think an argument can be made for for those last fifty spots. But if I take The DA's suggestion, I eliminate Ross Barnes, George Wright, John Clarkson, Roger Connor, Dan Brouthers, and Ed Delahanty from the 19th century players and sorry, RT, Dihigo would be the last Negro Leaguer left out. That brings me down to exactly 50 (5 C, 4 1b, 5 2b, 4 SS, 4 3b, 5 LF, 5 CF, 5 RF, and 13 P).
   12. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: March 03, 2014 at 02:49 PM (#4665571)
This seems like a lot of fun. I wonder if he'll have Ruth or Bonds at the top. I wonder where Musial will be!
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: March 03, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4665602)
This seems like a lot of fun. I wonder if he'll have Ruth or Bonds at the top. I wonder where Musial will be!


Or Mays. I think those are the three likeliest top players, but I wouldn't be able to take any list that didn't list Ruth as number one, seriously. With this being Poz, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Josh Gibson break top 5.
   14. Blastin Posted: March 03, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4665626)
I think he probably says Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Cobb, Gibson or something like that.
   15. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 03, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4665659)
#1 yes, there were 51 named already, but one of those was Roy Hobbs of the New York Knights, so it's reasonable to assume they'll be another 50 non-fictional players


If Hobbs makes the Bottom 50, then surely Bugs should be in the upper half.
   16. cardsfanboy Posted: March 03, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4665661)
Wasn't Hobbs a one year wonder? Why does he get it over say Benjamin (Benny the Jet) Franklin Rodriguez, who by all accounts had a stellar career, or Snoopy who almost beat Hank Aaron to the home run record?
   17. jdennis Posted: March 03, 2014 at 04:33 PM (#4665669)
#11

Cobb
Speaker
Mantle
DiMaggio
Mays
Charleston

6 already.
   18. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: March 03, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4665678)
Looking over Poz's list, it appears that his second 50 includes all of one catcher, Campanella. Either there's going to be a serious run on catchers, or they're going to be criminally underrepresented.
   19. Moeball Posted: March 03, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4665726)
Looking over Poz's list, it appears that his second 50 includes all of one catcher, Campanella. Either there's going to be a serious run on catchers, or they're going to be criminally underrepresented.


I'm guessing there will be criminal activity. Bench and Gibson will probably be the only catchers in the remaining 50. No Carter, no Berra, no Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey, Mackey or either Pudge. I hope I'm wrong.
   20. Blastin Posted: March 03, 2014 at 07:22 PM (#4665760)
I think Yogi will make it.
   21. Walt Davis Posted: March 03, 2014 at 08:00 PM (#4665774)
Hmmm ... yeah ... Cs doesn't look good (I'll also put money on Berra ... or at least a "crap, I forgot there are Cs" article.

A quick and dirty (not necessarily correct or "fair") way to compare is to increase C WAR by about 25% on the theory that the position limits them to about 80% of the playing time of a regular. That would give us something like:

Bench 94 WAR
Carter 87
Pudge I and II 85
Piazza and Berra 74
Dickey 70

That would put Bench in the rough range of Kaline to Yaz and Carter in the Chipper, Brett, Boggs group. In terms of "greatness" those seem not so bad, about right for Carter. The best Bench comp might be Pujols who currently sits at 93 WAR and Bench didn't add much after age 32.

As it stands, the greatest C in the game sits in a group with Reggie, Whitaker, Molitor and Yount -- all damn fine players but not particularly close to the greatest at their position or the inner circle. Even his new group is still a bit short but it's closer.

By the way, Pudge I had 68.3 career bWAR and Pudge II had 68.3 career bWAR. How perfect is that?
   22. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: March 03, 2014 at 08:58 PM (#4665789)
Hmmm ... yeah ... Cs doesn't look good (I'll also put money on Berra ... or at least a "crap, I forgot there are Cs" article.

Yeah, I tried compiling a predicted top 50 (unranked) and was able to jam four catchers into it, but I kind of expect it to just be Gibson, Bench, and Berra to go along with Campanella. Compare that to second base, which already has 6 players in the second 50 without touching Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, or Robinson yet.
   23. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: March 03, 2014 at 10:22 PM (#4665817)
I wonder if he'll have Ruth or Bonds at the top.


94-46 122ERA+. This is why Ruth will always be at the top.
   24. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: March 03, 2014 at 11:12 PM (#4665830)
Yeah, I knew I had mize termed my number of CF, but for some reason, it wouldn't let me edit, and then I had to go to work, so I just left it as was. Plus I had forgotten about some other players, so I have to figure out who is getting left off.
   25. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 04, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4666104)
Per Posnanski, there will be 51 in the first 50. The tie is the tie breaker for the contest (guess Trammell's half of that).
   26. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 04, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4666192)
The tie is the tie breaker for the contest

Cap Anson and Jackie Robinson.

   27. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: March 04, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4666264)
I Imagine it'll go:

1. Ruth
2. Bonds
3. Wagner
4. Mays
5. Williams
   28. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: March 05, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4666755)
My tiebreaker was Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra. And Jackie Robinson has to be #42, doesn't he?
   29. pikepredator Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4666807)
seems like the two pudges are good candidates for the other tie in the top 50. Or else Oh and Gibson, since both are prodigious sluggers from other leagues . . .

EDIT nevermind Oh is already there
   30. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: March 05, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4666911)
Cap Anson and Jackie Robinson.

I was thinking Anson and Rose as a possible tie, with Poz stumping again for Rose to be reinstated because Anson was worse, or something.
   31. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 05, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4666941)
EDIT nevermind Oh is already there

Oh shit!
   32. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 05, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4666942)
The tie will be Buck O'Neil/Joe Paterno.
   33. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 07, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4668009)
50 - Al Kaline
   34. GregD Posted: March 07, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4668044)
50 - Al Kaline
Great guess!
   35. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 20, 2014 at 01:23 AM (#4674306)
49 - Napoleon Lajoie
   36. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 20, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4674668)
Does Lajoie's placement at 49 mean that Wagner's not a shoo-in for the top ten?
   37. The District Attorney Posted: March 20, 2014 at 10:44 PM (#4674693)
Does Lajoie's placement at 49 mean that Wagner's not a shoo-in for the top ten?
I don't think so. James had Nap #40 in the New Historical, and that was before potential moves into the top 40 by Clemens, Maddux, Big Unit, A-Rod and Pujols.
   38. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 26, 2014 at 11:19 PM (#4677639)
48. Bob Feller
47. Albert Pujols

Negro Leaguers: Bell, Rogan, Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams (partial Irvin and Campanella)
Japan: Oh (partial Ichiro)
19th Century Players: Radbourn, Nichols (partial Lajoie)
Active Players: Ichiro, Cabrera, Jeter, Pujols
   39. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4706590)
46. Sandy Koufax
45. Yogi Berra
44. Pedro Martinez

Negro Leaguers: Bell, Rogan, Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams (partial Irvin and Campanella)
Japan: Oh (partial Ichiro)
19th Century Players: Radbourn, Nichols (partial Lajoie)
Active Players: Ichiro, Cabrera, Jeter, Pujols
   40. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 21, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4711214)
43. Warren Spahn
42. Jackie Robinson
   41. Morty Causa Posted: May 21, 2014 at 10:14 PM (#4711222)
Is he excluding Rose and Joe Jackson?
   42. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 21, 2014 at 11:00 PM (#4711251)
No, Jackson's No 81, Rose hasn't been selected yet. Nos. 100-51 are listed up at #2.
   43. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 21, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4776298)
Posnanski announced on his website that his 100 is on hiatus while he works on other stuff. Rose was his No. 41. These are my guesses for who his 1-40 (but, see Wagner/Lloyd below) would be (not trying to guess his order):

Bench
DiMaggio
Brett
B. Gibson
Clemente
Ripken
Yastrzemski
Mathews
Foxx
Morgan

Mathewson
R. Johnson
Grove
Schmidt
Maddux
F. Robinson
Ott
Mantle
Paige
Seaver

Henderson
Gehrig
Rodriguez
Alexander
T. Williams
Collins
Charleston
Hornsby
Musial
Wagner/Lloyd (Posnanski indicated there would be a "tie" a la Thomas/Bagwell above)

J. Gibson
Speaker
Clemens
Aaron
Cobb
Mays
Bonds
W. Johnson
Young
Ruth

Tough cuts (who also drop out of the Top 100) included Phil Niekro, Cap Anson. I'm also assuming that he slots Alan Trammell back in somewhere around Jeter's spot.

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