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Tuesday, April 15, 2014

Joe Torre: John Farrell Will Be Fined By MLB For His Replay Criticism

Unfair to our rights! The hell with Cask’n Flagon call in Cliven Bundy!

Joe Torre, MLB’s executive vice president of baseball operations, told the New York Daily News on Monday that the Boston Red Sox manager will be fined for comments he made after Sunday’s loss to the New York Yankees.

“I’m not going to suspend him. It will be a fine,” Torre said. “I’m sorry about what he said. What I try to do in whatever I do in this job that the commissioner has imported me to do is basically never forget what it’s like to be a player or a manager. Part of that never forgetting are the feelings, especially when you’re dealing with Red Sox-Yankees games. There is nothing that is insignificant about anything that happens in those games.”

Torre also echoed the sentiments of Tony LaRussa, who urged managers Monday to give the system time before passing judgment.

“This (replay system) is a three-year rollout,” Torre said. “It’s probably going to take that long where you get it to where you want it to be. And the only way we’re going to find that out is to do what we’re doing. It’s not perfect.

“I’m not sure it’s ever going to be perfect. We feel for the most part, it’s going to get a lot of the plays right that are going to be game-changers. That could be two-out, nobody on, ground ball to first base. There’s nothing insignificant about any play because it could turn into something.”

Repoz Posted: April 15, 2014 at 12:39 PM | 40 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Riki Tiki Javy Lopez Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4686427)
Well, that appears to be some bullshit.
   2. Riki Tiki Javy Lopez Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4686428)
ahem...bull feces.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4686430)
Well that should fix the problem.
   4. Kurt Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4686433)
“I’m not sure it’s ever going to be perfect. We feel for the most part, it’s going to get a lot of the plays right that are going to be game-changers. That could be two-out, nobody on, ground ball to first base. There’s nothing insignificant about any play because it could turn into something.”


Wonderful. Get ready for four hour games.
   5. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4686434)
We feel for the most part, it’s going to get a lot of the plays right that are going to be game-changers. That could be two-out, nobody on, ground ball to first base.


Unless, of course, the manager already used up his challenge on a play where a clearly incorrect call was upheld anyway.

Couple of things, FWIW...

1) I'm pretty sure Farrell expected to get fined for his comments. Just like he expected to get tossed for arguing the video review in the first place. He knows the rules and he knows the consequences of his actions. But sometimes paying a fine is the best and easiest way to make your point.

2) It just might be that MLB was trying to send a message with the non-reversal of the 'foot came off the bag' call in the Saturday game... maybe that just isn't the kind of thing they want managers challenging. OTOH, if you didn't want managers to embarrass umps with nit-picky challenges, then maybe you shouldn't have set up your replay system to use manager challenges in the first place.
   6. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4686436)
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
   7. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4686437)
I understand the spirit of replay, but my god do I hate how it interrupts the flow of the game. Football is now almost unwatchable. Sometimes injustice will reign and maybe we should just accept that.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4686446)
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


JORGE ORTA WAS OUT AT FIRST
JORGE ORTA WAS ALWAYS OUT AT FIRST
   9. Gaelan Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4686457)
Wonderful. Get ready for four hour games.


If only. The Orwell quotes aren't misplaced. In the spirit of "getting the calls right" they've changed the rules and violated the natural law of what is a catch and consequently what is an out. How do you get more fundamental than that?

Pierzynski last night only the latest example.

Someone at fangraphs had a good line. He called the new rule on what constitutes a catch Schrodinger's catch. Fantastic.
   10. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4686462)
“This (replay system) is a three-year rollout,” Torre said. “It’s probably going to take that long where you get it to where you want it to be.

What the #### does this even mean?
What if "where you want it to be" is GONE? Can we end the "experiment" NOW? Is there a sunset provision, that if fewer than 90% of teams want to keep it, replay goes away?
   11. jmurph Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4686467)
What the #### does this even mean?


I think what that means is that being a successful professional athlete and field manager does not necessarily qualify one to be an executive?
   12. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4686469)
Someone at fangraphs had a good line. He called the new rule on what constitutes a catch Schrodinger's catch. Fantastic.


Hey, I used that same line in ######## about all this to my friends last night.

I was pretty pro-replay when this implementation was first proposed, never imagining that MLB would screw it up so royally so fast.
   13. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4686481)
I was pretty pro-replay when this implementation was first proposed, never imagining that MLB would screw it up so royally so fast.

I was pro-the-concept-of-replay when they were discussing it, but pretty much knew that they'd screw it up royally.
   14. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4686487)
I was pro-replay, and the interruptions in play honestly don't bother me much, but I was worried about possible legalese of the rules creeping into the game and trumping common sense like it has in football - "its not a catch until the receiver makes a football move, puts the ball in a receiving motion, and accepts the ball with his heart." It appears baseball is headed down that path, unfortunately.
   15. bobm Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4686508)
Seattle Times: Lloyd McClendon ‘not sure’ replay is good for baseball

“I’m as frustrated as the next person. You try to be politically correct with your statements, but I’m really worried about where we’re headed with replay and the effect it’s having on the games and the effect it’s having on the fans. Hell, I don’t even know what to celebrate anymore. You don’t know what’s going to be challenged. For me, I think it’s slowing the game down a little. I’ve been trying to be a fan of it. I initially thought it was going to be good for the game, but I’m not so sure. I’m really not. [...]

”Having said that, we knew going in that it was going to be a period of adjustment. The one thing I don’t like is they said, ‘We won’t make adjustments until the end of the year.’ Maybe we ought to think about making adjustments right away.”


   16. PerroX Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4686509)
"There’s nothing insignificant about any play because it could turn into something."

Joe Torre could be an extra on The Walking Dead.
   17. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4686521)
2014 World Series. The A's have won the first three games, and are beating the Nationals 13-0 in Game 4. With two outs in the ninth inning, Jayson Werth hits a comebacker to Sean Doolittle, who underhands the ball to first base in plenty of time. The A's pour onto the field, and.... Matt Williams challenges the play. Why? Just to be a ####, and why the #### not? Everything stops for five minutes. Tens of thousands of fans just kind of stand there, watching the DiamondVision. The national TV audience is treated to a Bud Selig montage. "The call is upheld. Okay, you guys can go ahead and celebrate now."
   18. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4686526)
Joe Torre:

Red Sox manager criticizes replay system. Receives fine.
Yankees pitcher covers hand in pine tar. No fine.
   19. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4686531)
I was pretty much anti-replay after getting fed up with the NFL's use of it. I knew it would be a disaster in baseball because they couldn't even get the simple replays of home runs called right.

   20. esseff Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4686539)
2014 World Series. The A's have won the first three games, and are beating the Nationals 13-0 in Game 4. With two outs in the ninth inning, Jayson Werth hits a comebacker to Sean Doolittle, who underhands the ball to first base in plenty of time. The A's pour onto the field, and.... Matt Williams challenges the play. Why? Just to be a ####, and why the #### not? Everything stops for five minutes. Tens of thousands of fans just kind of stand there, watching the DiamondVision. The national TV audience is treated to a Bud Selig montage. "The call is upheld. Okay, you guys can go ahead and celebrate now."


Less embellished version of that scenario happened in the first week of the season with a Coco Crisp walk-off homer in extra innings. The celebration started, was put on hold for a replay review, and resumed when the homer was confirmed.
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4686544)
2014 World Series. The A's have won the first three games, and are beating the Nationals 13-0 in Game 4. With two outs in the ninth inning, Jayson Werth hits a comebacker to Sean Doolittle, who underhands the ball to first base in plenty of time. The A's pour onto the field, and.... Matt Williams challenges the play. Why? Just to be a ####, and why the #### not? Everything stops for five minutes. Tens of thousands of fans just kind of stand there, watching the DiamondVision. The national TV audience is treated to a Bud Selig montage. "The call is upheld. Okay, you guys can go ahead and celebrate now."


Or worse...game seven of the World Series, score tied at 4. Xander Bogaerts lines one to center and Dustin Pedroia races home and is tagged...SAFE!!! Fenway explodes, team pours onto the field fireworks go off and everyone goes apeshit. Umpires race off the field and no replay is viewed.

It sounds ridiculous but in the 1999 Stanley Cup Finals that's basically what happened. Brett Hull scored an overtime winner with a skate in the crease, the type of goal that was reviewed endlessly that year in the playoffs. For reasons passing understanding no replay for that goal, the goal that won the ####### Stanley Cup. Ask a hockey fan in Buffalo about that today and duck because you will get punched.
   22. esseff Posted: April 15, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4686549)
A couple of more flaws in the system haven't even come into play yet, that I know of:

-- One is that a manager who has no challenge left can prevail upon the umpires to order a review anyway from the seventh inning on. Just wait until Umpire X does that for, say, Robin Ventura in one game and then two weeks later refuses to it for Buck Showalter. Even if the decisions are defensible, the appearance is going to stink.

-- Another is the implication that a team will never be the victim of more than two missed calls in one game.
   23. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 15, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4686562)

Another is the implication that a team will never be the victim of more than two missed calls in one game.


This is one of my concerns too. As a practical matter though it does not seem to have been an issue of significance in the NFL over the years and they have a limited number of challenges as well.
   24. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 15, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4686572)
Joe Torre:

Red Sox manager criticizes replay system. Receives fine.
Yankees pitcher covers hand in pine tar. No fine.


Red Sox pitcher covered arm in pine tar. No fine.

What's your point?
   25. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 15, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4686579)
It sounds ridiculous but in the 1999 Stanley Cup Finals that's basically what happened. Brett Hull scored an overtime winner with a skate in the crease, the type of goal that was reviewed endlessly that year in the playoffs. For reasons passing understanding no replay for that goal, the goal that won the ####### Stanley Cup. Ask a hockey fan in Buffalo about that today and duck because you will get punched


Dallas fans: "There was a memo!"
   26. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 15, 2014 at 04:26 PM (#4686582)
I was pro-the-concept-of-replay when they were discussing it, but pretty much knew that they'd screw it up royally.


Or someone is deliberately sabotaging it. I've been in the same Fantasy League for 20 years, this year we adopted a new roster rule, it's a watered down version of a rule used in every fantasy league on earth (except those handful still using the original 1982 Roto Rules)- its' been a bumpy roll out because two long term members (who voted against it) have been relentlessly arguing that the vote was invalid since it was sprung on them without notice (untrue), was not thoroughly thought out and cannot be implemented until next year- they have sought non-stop to create and exploit alleged "loopholes" (as a result the Commish has re-written the written version of the rule about 5 times- it's now a page long and it only governs free agent pick ups*. Even for league with lawyers in it the behavior is exceedingly childish in it's naked display of bad faith (the worst guy is an in-house guy at an investment firm, so my guess is this is how he always approaches rules and regs he doesn't like)

*ad if course with every re-write (clarification) these two scream, "we didn't vote on that it's not valid!"
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4686590)
Even for league with lawyers in it the behavior is exceedingly childish in it's naked display of bad faith (the worst guy is an in-house guy at an investment firm, so my guess is this is how he always approaches rules and regs he doesn't like)


Lawyers behaving childish...what a shocker.


   28. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2014 at 06:37 PM (#4686592)
Red Sox manager criticizes replay system. Receives fine.
Yankees pitcher covers hand in pine tar. No fine.


Red Sox pitcher covered arm in pine tar. No fine.

What's your point?


More to the point, one instance was an on field action which should have been caught by the umps, and that the league wouldn't have had cause to fine without actually catching the guy, versus the other was an off field incident, which doesn't require "caught in the act" to enforce.


Mind you, I absolutely despise leagues fining players/coaches/owners for speaking their mind. If it becomes problematic, then maybe the league should step in, but just a venting of frustration, and a legitimate criticism, shouldn't warrant a fine.
   29. Morty Causa Posted: April 15, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4686599)
It's hard not to conclude from this and the Pineda thing that Torre has met the Peter Principle head on.
   30. What's the realistic upside, RMc? Posted: April 15, 2014 at 07:24 PM (#4686614)
It sounds ridiculous but in the 1999 Stanley Cup Finals that's basically what happened. Brett Hull scored an overtime winner with a skate in the crease, the type of goal that was reviewed endlessly that year in the playoffs. For reasons passing understanding no replay for that goal, the goal that won the ####### Stanley Cup.

That's because the game was in triple effin' overtime, and the league officials -- who did not relish having to spend another night in hellhole Buffalo -- merely said, "Oh, ferchrissakes! Give the g@ddamn cup to the team from Houston, and let's get the f%#k out of here...!"
   31. winnipegwhip Posted: April 15, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4686622)
To #17

Mark McGwire hits his 62nd HR. After he rounds the bases and as he meets the Maris family, Jim Riggleman asks the umpires to confirm that first base coach Dave McKay made physical contact with McGwire thereby making McGwire out.

   32. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: April 15, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4686675)
Mark McGwire hits his 62nd HR. After he rounds the bases and as he meets the Maris family, Jim Riggleman asks the umpires to confirm that first base coach Dave McKay made physical contact with McGwire thereby making McGwire out.


Coaches are allowed to make contact on HR trots.
   33. pkb33 Posted: April 15, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4686678)
Torre was a tremendous manager and a credit to the game.

He is both awful and ineffective in his current job; he has been a consistent apologist for MLB and shows little consistency.

While I get that he needs to stand behind the system and the umpires, he just loses the little credibility he has in his role when he doesn't explicitly acknowledge the blown call in the game, too. One can easily say "we are working on the system, it will take three years, etc. and in this case, it didn't work well, we missed a call. That is going to happen again this year, and we expect managers to understand this and act professionally..." When you don't, you sound like you don't know what a correct call is and that you are more concerned with protecting the system than getting it fixed.
   34. Rob_Wood Posted: April 15, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4686680)

yes, that is the fricking point. the system IS more important than any one call.
   35. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 15, 2014 at 11:02 PM (#4686684)
Coaches are allowed to make contact on HR trots.


I don't think they're allowed to grab a player and yank him back so he touches a missed base.

Which of course wasn't the point of the original post anyway.
   36. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: April 16, 2014 at 01:29 AM (#4686725)
I was pretty much anti-replay after getting fed up with the NFL's use of it.

Just about the only football I've watched in a long time was some bowl games last year. I didn't care who won what game but was still pulling my hair out in short order about how seemingly every touchdown had to go to a freeze-frame forensic analysis of whether or not the player maintained possession of the ball as it broke the plane of the goal line instantaneously before the player's knee or elbow touched the ground with both feet inbounds.

Who the hell wants to endure that ####? Replay forces sports to cede control of the rule book over to the one class of people more contemptible than umpires. Lawyers.
   37. Publius Publicola Posted: April 16, 2014 at 07:05 AM (#4686766)
But doctoring the ball with a foreign substance. That. That's just peachy.
   38. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 16, 2014 at 07:47 AM (#4686767)
It sounds ridiculous but in the 1999 Stanley Cup Finals that's basically what happened. Brett Hull scored an overtime winner with a skate in the crease, the type of goal that was reviewed endlessly that year in the playoffs. For reasons passing understanding no replay for that goal, the goal that won the ####### Stanley Cup.

Has Matt Holliday touched home plate yet?
   39. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: April 16, 2014 at 09:01 AM (#4686778)
He is both awful and ineffective in his current job; he has been a consistent apologist for MLB and shows little consistency.


Seems to me that his current job is to be a consistent apologist for MLB, and to be consistent about that and only that. I'd say he's doing smashingly well.

But doctoring the ball with a foreign substance. That. That's just peachy.


Asked and answered. Pitchers using pine tar has been just peachy for decades. But now Torre is suddenly supposed to start enforcing a strict interpretation of this rule, and in fact go beyond the actual letter of law, in this and only this case, because it was a Yankee pitcher.

Has Matt Holliday touched home plate yet?


At least couple of hundred times since then, I'd guess.
   40. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 16, 2014 at 09:19 AM (#4686785)
Asked and answered. Pitchers using pine tar has been just peachy for decades. But now Torre is suddenly supposed to start enforcing a strict interpretation of this rule, and in fact go beyond the actual letter of law, in this and only this case, because it was a Yankee pitcher.


It's funny because the league has had a vendetta against the Yankees for neigh-on two decades now, so the failure of the Budshovik regime to punish the Yankees here only emphasizes how little interest the league has in drawing any attention to this widely-accepted tactic. Every GM in the league must have called the commissioner's office to advise against any sanctions.

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