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Sunday, September 22, 2019

Joe West ejects Yankees’ Boone amid clash with rookie ump

NEW YORK (AP) — Yankees manager Aaron Boone clashed Saturday with another rookie umpire, and this time, veteran crew chief Joe West stepped in.

Boone was ejected by West, umpiring at third base, for arguing balls and strikes during a 7-2 win over the Toronto Blue Jays.

New York slugger Giancarlo Stanton struck out looking at three low strikes from rookie T.J. Zeuch for the final out of the first inning. Stanton argued briefly with plate umpire Jeremie Rehak — an injury replacement from Triple-A — before heading back to the dugout.

Boone, meanwhile, shouted profanities from the bench, and West signaled his ejection from across the field. Rehak also booted Yankees hitting coach Marcus Thames during the exchange.

So, when two men with the temperaments (to put it euphemistically) of these two brawl, does anyone actually win?

 

QLE Posted: September 22, 2019 at 12:21 AM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: aaron boone, ejections, joe west

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   1. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: September 22, 2019 at 08:20 AM (#5881817)
#### Joe West.

That is all.
   2. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5881818)
#### every umpire with a "personalized" strike zone that widens the plate an inch or two on each side and moves the strike zone below the knees. Joe West may the the worst, but he ain't the only one. Over 10% of ball and strike calls are wrong.

   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:09 AM (#5881825)
#### every umpire with a "personalized" strike zone that widens the plate an inch or two on each side and moves the strike zone below the knees.

How have you watched baseball for so long, if something so bog standard drives you this crazy? GTF over it. Or go yell at a cloud or something. There's no moral imperative for perfect rule book adherence in an entertainment product.

Personalized strike zone and missed ball/strike calls are like #167 and #23 on baseball's list of problems.

   4. Darren Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5881827)
Who's the savage now?
   5. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5881832)
Right or wrong the Yankees aren’t doing themselves any favors. They seem to be building a reputation (Boone and especially Gardner) that isn’t going to help them. I understand being frustrated when calls go against you but umpires aren’t changing their calls. Go down the runway, smash a television and comeback to the dugout.
   6. I Knew A Guy Who Knew A Guy Who Knew Rey Ordonez Posted: September 22, 2019 at 11:27 AM (#5881842)
Aaron Boone has been tossed five times this year. The last three have been AAA fill-in umpires. The combination of Rehak + West, who is ferociously protective of his AAA guys when they're on his crew, should have given a big hint that something could happen.
   7. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: September 22, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5881844)
The combination of Rehak + West, who is ferociously protective of his AAA guys when they're on his crew,


Yeah, I'm sure that's because he cares deeply about their feelings and not at all because he jumps on every possible chance to make himself the center of attention.
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 22, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5881853)
Ha. As if Joe West couid or would jump.
   9. Captain Supporter Posted: September 22, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5881856)
The combination of Rehak + West, who is ferociously protective of his AAA guys when they're on his crew


Please, we are talking about Cowboy Joe here. He is not about protection; its all about airtime and making himself visible to people. Of course, the fact that the perfect umpire is barely noticeable is lost on the Cowboy. Automated strike zones and anything else that reduces the role of the Wests, Hernandez's, and Bucknor's can't come fast enough for me.

Having said that, while the Yankee players seem to like the way the perceive Boone is 'protecting' and 'sticking up' for them, it is a losing battle and he needs to calm down.
   10. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 22, 2019 at 12:26 PM (#5881858)
anything else that reduces the role of the Wests, Hernandez's, and Bucknor's can't come fast enough for me


How about termination for cause?
   11. Sunday silence Posted: September 22, 2019 at 02:30 PM (#5881872)
Im so happy next year when we have robo umps.
   12. Rob_Wood Posted: September 22, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5881876)
How have you watched baseball for so long, if something so bog standard drives you this crazy? GTF over it. Or go yell at a cloud or something. There's no moral imperative for perfect rule book adherence in an entertainment product.

Personalized strike zone and missed ball/strike calls are like #167 and #23 on baseball's list of problems.


I can state unequivocally that this is the first time ever that I have completely agreed with a post by snapper.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: September 22, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5881877)
Right or wrong the Yankees aren’t doing themselves any favors. They seem to be building a reputation (Boone and especially Gardner) that isn’t going to help them. I understand being frustrated when calls go against you but umpires aren’t changing their calls. Go down the runway, smash a television and comeback to the dugout.


It's the Yankees... the Evil Empire... they really can't do anything to improve their reputation no matter what... it's like thinking somebody outside of New England doesn't think that the Patriots are the most corrupt team in the big four sports... it doesn't matter what they do... their reputation isn't going to improve..
   14. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 22, 2019 at 05:42 PM (#5881956)
13 - I’mnot talking about with fans, I’m talking about with the umpires.
   15. KronicFatigue Posted: September 22, 2019 at 05:43 PM (#5881958)
I agree with Jose. I can't imagine what Boone is thinking there. There's no upside to arguing in that situation. He's already done the ####### Animals shtick to get his team fired up. At this point they're just running out the clock until the post season (fine, HFA in ALCS), and you're not going to see that AAA umpire in the playoffs, but you WILL see Joe West, who's going to hold a grudge. The much smarter play is to stay calm, reach out to West between innings and say "your boy really messed up there". West would probably agree and respect the fact that you didn't show up a rookie replacement ump.

There are ways of getting your point across w/o embarrassing anyone.
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2019 at 06:13 PM (#5881969)
How have you watched baseball for so long, if something so bog standard drives you this crazy? GTF over it. Or go yell at a cloud or something. There's no moral imperative for perfect rule book adherence in an entertainment product.

Personalized strike zone and missed ball/strike calls are like #167 and #23 on baseball's list of problems.


At least you're consistent, because you're against all forms of replay. And if they did away with all forms of replay I wouldn't be complaining that much, because then at least MLB would also be consistent. But as it now stands, MLB is content to let the overwhelming majority of blown calls stand, while taking 3 or 4 minutes to determine whether a runner overslid a base by a tenth of an inch for a tenth of a second. If the criterion is whether a blown call can change the course of the game, their priorities would be reversed.

And obviously the difference between now and not that long ago is the existence of (1) the TV strike zones, and (2) the stats that show how prevalent missed calls are. I'm just glad that the Atlantic League is testing the robo-umps, and with luck the Joe Wests of the world can content themselves in the future with calling checked swings and plays on the bases, instead of ####### up balls and strikes as often s they do.
   17. bunyon Posted: September 22, 2019 at 06:19 PM (#5881971)
I don’t much like Joe West but consistently arguing with substitute umps is a di(k move. And the senior ump should absolutely look out for the young guy.

Only one man comes off looking bad in this story regardless of who missed what call or how many of them, generally, have egos bigger than they should.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: September 22, 2019 at 06:53 PM (#5881977)
#### every umpire with a "personalized" strike zone that widens the plate an inch or two on each side and moves the strike zone below the knees.

I believe that you can unite BBTF in a way no one ever thought possible in these stormy times - by accepting our joint and sincere stipulation that we are aware you are unhappy with the way umpires call balls and strikes.

carry on
   19. Jack Sommers Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:01 PM (#5882023)
MLB Testing Robo Umps in Arizona Fall League

It's coming, maybe not right away, but within a couple of years at most. The article is interesting. The game will change. I personally think for the better.

They may have to adjust the official strike zone. But then they can just adjust the program, and not have to worry about different umps interpreting rule changes differently.

From another article on the Atlantic League

The human strike zone is shorter and narrower than the strike zone hitters now see in the Atlantic League. Atlantic League pitchers are finding that they get high strike calls much more often now than they did with human umpires. In fact, they were getting so many that the league modified the zone, adjusting it down by a few inches because following the textbook definition of a strike was found to lead to nearly unhittable high strikes.


Link

We used to drive without seat belts or safety glass. Progress is good. More accurate ball and strike calling makes a better game.
In 5 years we will have a much better game with fewer random bad calls influencing outcomes.
   20. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:28 PM (#5882029)
Progress is good but a shorter, narrower strike zone will promote taking even more pitches. More walks plus allowing hitters to gear up more and swing from their heels at predictable pitches means more homers. That’s not progress in my opinion.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5882030)
I believe that you can unite BBTF in a way no one ever thought possible in these stormy times - by accepting our joint and sincere stipulation that we are aware you are unhappy with the way umpires call balls and strikes.

Dear Miss Manners,

I wasn't the one who posted this article. If you don't like reading what I think about umpires who can't see straight, take it up with QLE.

-------------------------------------------------------

We used to drive without seat belts or safety glass. Progress is good. More accurate ball and strike calling makes a better game.

Don't tell that to snapper. He thinks bad ball and strike calls are what make the game entertaining, or something.

In 5 years we will have a much better game with fewer random bad calls influencing outcomes.

Hopefully it won't take 5 years to get around to implementing common sense, just as hopefully it won't take 5 years to convince MLB that Mike Trout isn't the only player who calls his mother before every game.

(Seriously, can't baseball get any paid advertising? The NFL and NBA don't seem to have this sort of problem.)
   22. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:36 PM (#5882031)
I’m not sure why it is assumed that robots, or those who program robots, will do a better job on the top & bottom of the strike zone - which varies by batter & stance, and is not always obvious - than a human standing 3 feet away. I get that robots should be better at getting the 17” width of home plate, which doesn’t vary, but I’m wary about the top & bottom. Seems like you’d need to embed sensors in the players to be sure the set-up wasn’t off.
   23. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:41 PM (#5882032)
Progress is good but a shorter, narrower strike zone will promote taking even more pitches. More walks plus allowing hitters to gear up more and swing from their heels at predictable pitches means more homers. That’s not progress in my opinion.

On the flip side, a narrower strike zone will force pitchers to pitch more reachable strikes, which in turn will result in fewer strikeouts caused by chasing unreachable pitches. It's the excess of strikeouts and lack of balls put in play, not any excess of home runs, that are driving fans away from the game, and don't think that those expanded strike zones have nothing to do with those strikeouts.
   24. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:43 PM (#5882033)
The league states you can't argue balls and strikes. Shouting profanities at the rookie ump is a dick move and deserves an ejection.

   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 22, 2019 at 10:45 PM (#5882034)
I’m not sure why it is assumed that robots, or those who program robots, will do a better job on the top & bottom of the strike zone - which varies by batter & stance, and is not always obvious - than a human standing 3 feet away. I get that robots should be better at getting the 17” width of home plate, which doesn’t vary, but I’m wary about the top & bottom. Seems like you’d need to embed sensors in the players to be sure the set-up wasn’t off.

No robot umpire could do a worse job of calling bottom of the zone strikes on Aaron Judge than the human umpires we have now. As a Yankees fan, you of all people should have noticed this in game after game.

Seems like you’d need to embed sensors in the players to be sure the set-up wasn’t off.

I'd be completely in favor of all necessary adjustments that it would take to get the top and the bottom of the zone custom-aligned for each batter. I don't see why it couldn't be done.
   26. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: September 22, 2019 at 11:09 PM (#5882036)
Progress is good but a shorter, narrower strike zone will promote taking even more pitches.
You have the quote in #19 backwards. The current human strike zone is shorter & narrower than the future robot zone.
   27. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 22, 2019 at 11:23 PM (#5882040)
Fernigal - Thanks. Yeah I misunderstood that. That sounds good though I still fear all manner of unintended consequences.

I just keep coming back to replay. As a fan it has not improved the game. Yes calls are being made correctly but it doesn't improve the fan experience. I'm not even remotely convinced that roboumps are going to just be great and make things better. As Yankee Clapper notes this requires implementation that I'm not convinced will be done well.

Look, if they can make it work and improve the game, great. I'm not expecting that. The biggest issue, by a long shot, is time/pace of game. Will roboumps be quicker than regular umps? I suspect they will be slower. Not a lot but think of Tim McClelland. He was famously slow in his calls behind the plate and if you watched a game with him you noticed it. Do we really need something else that is going to slow things down? Again, I don't know that this is what will happen but we don't know.

Does anyone have a link to some detail on how it worked in the Atlantic League? What was the process? How do they notify everyone what the call was? Is there an audible signal for the catcher to avoid making an unnecessary throw on a 3-2 pitch that's called ball four? As they say, the devil is in the details. I feel like everything I see about this is "we will get roboumps and every call will be right and there will be peace and harmony in our time." I want to see the steps in there that get us to that point.
   28. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 22, 2019 at 11:31 PM (#5882041)
Found one.. It's extremely positive. That's a good thing (really). I'm still a skeptic but based on this a bit less than I was five minutes ago.
   29. Zach Posted: September 23, 2019 at 05:50 PM (#5882340)
If we're going to go to robo-umps, it would be better to codify the shorter, wider human strike zone than to enforce the rulebook zone.

Otherwise, every pitcher who makes his living on the outside corner is going to face a career crisis. And you'll be seeing all kinds of unhittable pitches at the inside letters.
   30. JAHV Posted: September 23, 2019 at 06:57 PM (#5882356)
Otherwise, every pitcher who makes his living on the outside corner is going to face a career crisis. And you'll be seeing all kinds of unhittable pitches at the inside letters.


It's possible we could solve both problems that way, though, if hitters adjust. That upper inside corner pitch can be hit by moving away from the plate, allowing hitters to get their arms a bit more extended on those inside pitches. It means hitters' coverage on the outside corner is spottier, but they should still be able to make contact, it simply won't be quite as powerful. Maybe enforcing that pitch as a strike means we end up reducing the hard contact to the opposite field, which is where I feel like the biggest difference in home runs is coming from.

This is all just spitballing with very little evidence, so take it for what it's worth.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: September 23, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5882358)
I’m not sure why it is assumed that robots, or those who program robots, will do a better job on the top & bottom of the strike zone - which varies by batter & stance, and is not always obvious - than a human standing 3 feet away. I get that robots should be better at getting the 17” width of home plate, which doesn’t vary, but I’m wary about the top & bottom. Seems like you’d need to embed sensors in the players to be sure the set-up wasn’t off.


Pretty much every game broadcast that I have seen with an umpire who was erratic with the strike zone, has resulted in the analysts saying "We don't care if it's technically not a strike or ball, but the batters and pitchers want consistency."

So even if the strike zone is not perfect, the relative consistency call that you will get with robo umps will allow the pitchers to react with conviction on where the strike zone is that game... heck you could be an a-s and argue that before each game you'll have one of a limited strike zones that you don't know will be called until the first pitch of the game, and the players would be able to react to it..

I just watched a Cubs/Cards series where the zone was inconsistent, and it frequently seemed to favor my team of choice, but randomly it would work in the Cubs favor, but the spotting of the pitches were pretty random throughout the game. As a Cardinal fan, I'll argue it's Molina making the difference, but that isn't the full reality.
   32. bunyon Posted: September 23, 2019 at 06:59 PM (#5882359)
Right. Pitchers (and hitters to some extent) have been selected since they were 7 or 8 with the "human" strike zone.

I have no idea how it will go but I know it will be wildly entertaining to watch these groups play with a sudden jump to a different strike zone that is impervious to criticism and questions of it's mother's honor.
   33. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 23, 2019 at 09:56 PM (#5882406)
If we're going to go to robo-umps, it would be better to codify the shorter, wider human strike zone than to enforce the rulebook zone.

Otherwise, every pitcher who makes his living on the outside corner is going to face a career crisis.


Cue the crocodile tears. They've been getting away with murder for far too long by getting strikes called outside the outside corner, and frequently below the knees. Make them throw the ball over the plate if they want to get strikes called.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So even if the strike zone is not perfect, the relative consistency call that you will get with robo umps will allow the pitchers to react with conviction on where the strike zone is that game.

Bingo. Why isn't a uniformly consistent strike zone preferable to 74 different "consistent" strike zones? What makes "personalized" strike zones so sacrosanct?

---------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea how it will go but I know it will be wildly entertaining to watch these groups play with a sudden jump to a different strike zone that is impervious to criticism and questions of it's mother's honor.

They'll get used to it, just like they'll get used to not being able to stall on the mound or in the batter's box, and just like they'll get used to the shift. Good players will adapt to the rule book strike zone, and #### the ones who can't.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2019 at 12:04 AM (#5882458)
Bingo. Why isn't a uniformly consistent strike zone preferable to 74 different "consistent" strike zones? What makes "personalized" strike zones so sacrosanct?


The latter is the way the game has been called from the very start, though the scare quotes are yours.

It's possible the former produces a better game as an entertainment product. We don't know, because no one's ever seen that game at the major league level.

For example, the current iteration of the game is largely the result of teams determining the optimal way of hitting (launch angle/swing to maximize hard contact) and pitching (limiting pitcher outings/hard-throwing relievers). Very few of us here think that this optimization has led to the best version of the sport.

   35. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2019 at 12:59 AM (#5882466)
So even if the strike zone is not perfect, the relative consistency call that you will get with robo umps will allow the pitchers to react with conviction on where the strike zone is that game...
Again, that assumes that the technology will be accurate, or inaccurate in a consistent manner, on the top & bottom of the strike zone. Might need to know a bit more before we can be confident of that.
   36. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 24, 2019 at 08:57 AM (#5882495)
Bingo. Why isn't a uniformly consistent strike zone preferable to 74 different "consistent" strike zones? What makes "personalized" strike zones so sacrosanct?

The latter is the way the game has been called from the very start, though the scare quotes are yours.


Your point being?

It's possible the former produces a better game as an entertainment product. We don't know, because no one's ever seen that game at the major league level.

We won't know until we try it, but apparently the reaction in the Atlantic League has been positive

For example, the current iteration of the game is largely the result of teams determining the optimal way of hitting (launch angle/swing to maximize hard contact) and pitching (limiting pitcher outings/hard-throwing relievers). Very few of us here think that this optimization has led to the best version of the sport.

I'm not a fan of TTO baseball, either, but as I've said before, squeezing the width of the plate to its actual dimensions is likely to lead to fewer strikeouts, as the current artificially widened plate leads to players chasing pitches that are even further outside.

-----------------------------------------------------

So even if the strike zone is not perfect, the relative consistency call that you will get with robo umps will allow the pitchers to react with conviction on where the strike zone is that game...

Again, that assumes that the technology will be accurate, or inaccurate in a consistent manner, on the top & bottom of the strike zone. Might need to know a bit more before we can be confident of that.

So if the technology can be improved to everyone's satisfaction, will you then support the robo-umps' installation? Or will you just continue to defend the Joe Wests of the world in the name of sacred tradition?
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5882503)
Your point being?


Same as it ever was. The personalized strike zone is the strike zone, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise.

We won't know until we try it, but apparently the reaction in the Atlantic League has been positive


A couple of players and umpires responded positively. I don't care what they think. Their views of what's good for the sport (25 seconds between pitches, TTO4EVR) are quite different from mine (quit dicking around, can someone put the ball in play?).

I'm only concerned about how it affects the game on the field. And we don't know how that will play out, though your assurances of its greatness have been noted and given their proper due.



   38. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 24, 2019 at 09:50 AM (#5882510)
Your point being?

Same as it ever was. The personalized strike zone is the strike zone, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise.


For now. But prepare yourself for the day when it isn't. I have the feeling you won't abandon your love of the game over RoboUmps, any more than I've abandoned mine over 74 different personalized strike zones.

We won't know until we try it, but apparently the reaction in the Atlantic League has been positive

A couple of players and umpires responded positively. I don't care what they think. Their views of what's good for the sport (25 seconds between pitches, TTO4EVR) are quite different from mine (quit dicking around, can someone put the ball in play?).


The irony is that I completely agree with you about stallball and TTOs, but I don't see how they have anything to do with constantly miscalled balls and strikes.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: September 24, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5882515)
For now. But prepare yourself for the day when it isn't. I have the feeling you won't abandon your love of the game over RoboUmps, any more than I've abandoned mine over 74 different personalized strike zones.


This is what drives me ####### nuts. You keep imagining that personalized strike zones are something you've had to get accustomed to. That they represent some change in the game. You didn't. They don't.

It's the only game you've ever known. Labeling it and putting scare quotes around it didn't invent the simple fact that every umpire is going to have a slightly different perspective on the strike zone, whether that was some dead ball era man in blue from your childhood or Joe West.

The irony is that I completely agree with you about stallball and TTOs, but I don't see how they have anything to do with constantly miscalled balls and strikes.


The point is we don't know how implementation of robo umps will actually change the way the game is played. It's uncharted waters, and not every development is actually an improvement on the game from a fan's perspective. The approach to offense has changed over time, which is likely increasing run-scoring optimization, though it's a much-less enjoyable game to watch. Replay has likely limited the number of blown calls, but it's existence (in my eyes) makes for a less watchable game for a host of reasons.

The idea that robo umps at the plate can't lead to a less pleasing game on the field is sheer nonsense.

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