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I also thought his dogging the grounder in the eighth inning, and letting the Angels get the third out on a play Figgins flubbed, was a nice touch as well. Really capped off his evening.
I don't believe that Maddon will have to continue to address this. After tonight, I can't imagine that his teamates don't say something. Upton very easily could have cost them the game.
That said, he is still a good player who can help his team signifigantly... if he wants to.
Upton hit a nice shot that he thought was a no doubt home run (as a viewer I didn't think that at all off the bat...I thought it was surely extra bases, but not a guaranteed homer) and Mannyed his way up the first base line. Even more inexcusably, he continued to slack his way toward second base: he was moving at a light jog, no faster than a home run trot would be, and he was so slow and out-to-lunch that he didn't see Teixeira shadowing him waiting for the relay throw. When Teixeira made the tag, Upton was STILL a couple of feet from 2B, that's how slow he was going.
Just unbelievable - literally the most outrageous, howlingly inexcusable play I have seen in years on the field, worse than anything Ramirez has ever done - and the sort of thing that is going to bury him with the media and the fans regardless of how good he can be otherwise. And he did it to himself, that's what really hurts.
Hopefully his younger brother has higher baseball IQ. BJ Upton's IQ is arctic cold low
They might put it up later on
It looked really bad
What's even more galling is how he seemed to completely shut his brain down after leaving the batter's box. Was his eye on the ball? Was he even following what was going on during the play? (Clearly not, based on the outcome.) I guess his assumption was that Rivera was just making a cutoff throw and he wasn't in any danger.
On the other hand, let's give a little credit to Mark Teixeira for paying attention to Upton's laziness and exploiting it deftly.
And no less than a week after being benched for loafing. How stupid can you be?
Maybe the wind held it up? It can get quite windy in St. Pete this time of year.
Of course, as an outfielder for the Rays, he would presumably know the effects of the wind on fly balls.
All Upton did was start with an admiration trot and then half-speed hustle to 2nd on a sure double. If the ball does not bounce up to Teixeira off the funny indoor turf than this weird play does not happen no matter how slow Upton is supposedly "dogging it"...
Well played for both of you.
EDIT: It just occurred to me that maybe the OP was having a little fun. I need to have more faith in my fellow Primates.
Maybe the kid needs a soap party, like in Full Metal Jacket.
Joe Maddon:
That running from here to there has been fundamental to the game's inception is irrelevant.
Seriously, it's clear Upton is more interested in a game of one-upmanship with his manager than actually winning games.
I saw this firsthand with Sheffield. And unlike Maddon, Tom Trebelhorn all but stood on his head to try and persuade Gary to buy into the concept of playing hard on a regular basis. The same Tom Trebelhorn who Rickey Henderson the "best manager he ever played for". The same manager who Dave Parker complimented for always listening to the player's side.
And Gary told him to f#ck off. Both via his actions and finally in the clubhouse.
Barring an intervention of some miraculous form this will only get worse.
It's a shame.
And I really hope I am wrong......
Geez....
Never saw this happen to Jeter. Or Alex. Or Ryan Braun. Or Prince. Or Matt Kemp who has a 1002 more reasons to have an attitude. Or even Jeff Kent who never saw an opportunity to coast he didn't like.
Good players make good judgements on the ballfield.
Upton is a talented player who has some issues....
Monday, the rat shows up with an eye swollen shut.
Sarge: 'What happened, soldier'?
Rat: Nothin', sir.
Maybe Jonny Gomes can earn his pay for the year and go coco on Upton in the clubhouse.
At least he starts off by running hard...
I hate to get down on the kid and I really hope he can learn from these last couple of weeks. The play was just so shocking and inexplicable, particularly in light of recent events, it was hard not to be floored. Particularly when he was cruising down the line, again, in the eighth inning.
I think Robot Boy has it right, it's time for the Midnight Blanket Party.
An admiration trot is always dogging it. ALWAYS. You run hard until you know the ball is over the fence. Period. A ballplayer's margin of error on this should be 0%. Any time a player goes into a home run trot and the ball isn't a home run, he is dogging it, and criticism should come down like a ton of bricks.
It never ceases to amaze me how managers kavetch over the possibility of aligning the defense for a double play, or against a wild pitch or a double along the line, but this sort of thing gets a free pass.
At what point do you guys accept that Maddon has handled this disastrously? Is it not perfectly obvious that every time Maddon "makes his point" Upton does likewise? When it becomes a clash of egos like this there are no winners, only losers. This would be pretty bad if it were happening on the Mariners, but in the middle of a pennant race? It's utterly appalling. If this costs the Rays a playoff spot then both Upton and Maddon should hang their heads in shame for a long time.
I repeat - the aim is not to "hurt" Upton. The aim is to get him to run hard. Maddon is getting Upton to run less hard out of spite. God knows what the next stage of this war is.
Look, the events are these:
July 26: Iwamura doesn't run hard, Maddon calls team meeting, strict new rules on hustling. No gray areas! I'm showing you guys who's in charge.
August 6: Upton doesn't run out a meaningless grounder. In my view Upton didn't do anything particularly bad here. Nevertheless because of the tough new rules Maddon benches Upton for the next game and talks about how this is sending a message to the whole organisation. Upton clearly thinks Maddon is just trying to make an example of him to prove the tough new rules.
August 15: So to send his own message back, Upton doesn't run the ball out again, and this is a serious one. In my view this is the action of a selfish jerk, but it's also a pretty inevitable result of Maddon's management style. Maddon again makes a public example of Upton, so...
August 18: Rinse, repeat.
Maddon is not managing this situation, at all. Yeah Upton's behaviour is bad but it's not like it's unpredictable - if you put down tough new rules you have to expect that the employees will test them! You have to expect that you'll have some people who are unmotivated, or troublesome, or just plain jerks - if everyone was these perfect angels you wouldn't need a manager to begin with. Really the whole situation is just totally infantile and only serves to remind me that professional athletes are just overgrown children. Maddon is the teacher trying to act tough to the class and Upton is the idiot trying to call him on it. Pathetic by both of them.
What is "tough" about running out a ground ball? Unless they are playing on a minefield, I think this rule is pretty easy to satisfy.
Amazing how the flukes happen to you when you consistently put yourself in a position to be fluked.
He must be a creep. Just saying.
Bossman Junior is trying to tell Maddon he want to be the boss. Somehow I think this will end poorly for Upton.
Irrelevant. "Should he run" and "Is the manager taking the best path to get the most out of his player?" are not the same thing.
Obviously, Upton was a dumbass and hurt the team. We can mock him for that all we want. But Maddon's job is to get the most out of Upton, and whether his approach is justified or not, it should be evaluated on whether it is effective or not.
On tonight's play, I really think he thought he had hit a home run. The ball had some topspin and hit off the wall (I only saw the full speed play and it looked like it hit wall first, and that is also how the announcers called it). He then was coasting into second and didn't know Teixeira was there so that when the ball came his way he felt it would be scooped up well behind him.
Yes, he's supposed to be running hard all the time, but he thought this situation was different. He wasn't trying to beat a throw to first, and surely many of his teammates have jogged standing into second all season long rather than dig all the way and slide up a storm of dirt at an empty base.
The 8th inning grounder, I didn't see anything to prove he was dogging it. He took a long swing and I think it was more that it took him longer to get going due to that than that he was coasting up the line.
Anyhow, this isn't a defense of him. I just think he's dumb as opposed to devious.
And I think those who think Maddon has screwed this up are completely unaware of what may have already happened behind the scenes. It's foolish to make these grand pronouncements that he is a poor leader when so much information is missing. Everything else in his record indicates he knows what he's doing, so he should receive more slack until proven otherwise. And these incidents prove nothing.
This is exactly right.
The Rays have a big lead on the playoff position. If no one on the team will teach him a lesson I'd think hard about sending him to the minors and playing Ruggiano in centerfield for a while.
you little smoke stack
You've wasted my time
I'd like to see you try and give it back
Where did I state that they are the same? In fact, I completely agree that they are different issues.
Now, as for your statement that my comment is irrelevent, let's see what I was responding to:
My point was that running hard to first is not a "tough" rule that you would expect to cause a player to revolt against. The predictable response, in my opinion, would be that Upton would understand that running hard is a key part of the game, and thus would follow suit. That he chose to dog it on the basepaths three times in two weeks is actually quite unpredictable, especially given that such a rule is anything but tough.
The problem with this argument is that if Upton is determined to continue to be a schmuck on the basepaths, you will place the blame with Maddon, regardless of the managerial techniques that he has attempted.
I should know, I was the same way (and still am a bit).
No excuse, but it';s not like he's crazy, or stupid, he's probably just pig-headed stubborn and has trouble with authority.
Too bad, it's a shame to see all these young Rays players blow it for stupid reasons.
There are some situations where it is necessary for a good manager to know when to finesse a guy and when to berate him to get a point through, but this is not one of those times.
This is professional baseball.
If coach says you hustle... you hustle. There is no need to discuss Maddon's "managerial techniques" or "tough new rules". It isn't like a discussion where a manager is trying to change your role or position on the team. He just asking you to ####### play baseball. Manager says you run, you run.
You need to make like Nike and Just. Do. It.
There isn't any reason not to. BJ Upton isn't going to be gassed from running from home-to-first or home-to-second. And furthermore, he doesn't need to go 100%... so don't give me the reasons that he is going to ruin himself by trying to hard. Except for bang-bang plays, no player has ever been called out for running a mere 80 or 90% on a grounder or popout. If he could just stop lollygaggin it, there would be no issue.
"Tough new rules" makes it sound like a new boss with a stricter dress code or something. This isn't some detail they are quibbling over with Upton's job. They are fighting over Upton not doing his job.
If a pizza guy kept delivering pizzas late because he would stop by his girlfriend's place while he was out delivering and the manager said "stop it!" would you say that is a "tough new rule"?
Well that's only a problem if you believe there is nothing anyone can say or do to affect Upton to not be a schmuck.
You might believe that, and you could be right. But I was responding more to the people cheering Maddon for his various approaches who clearly believe that there's some correct path out there. I'm just saying that if you believe that, you should evaluate based on the actual response to the strategy.
That is, when he runs hard, let him know you noticed, that it was good, and that it was appreciated.
So, compliment him profusely for doing the thing he is supposed to do in the first place and that everyone else on the team already does? I get your point but jeez...if Upton is really so immature that he needs to be congratulated for running hard on a grounder or a double then he's in a pretty sorry state.
I'm not saying this anecdotally; there have been a bunch of studies on this.
That may have already happened. Without knowing all the details about Maddon and Upton's relationship it's tough to know how the situation should or shouldn't be handled.
The tough-love approach doesn't seem to have worked, and maybe another approach would work. With a player of Upton's caliber it creates a situation that every approach should be tried, because his value is far greater if he is happy and producing, than if he is unhappy and playing like a bonehead.
If after trying a bunch of approaches, Upton still goes bonehead, then you should try and get rid of him.
I agree, but why are people assuming that Maddon hasn't already tried this? Do people really believe that Maddon wants to pick on a young player, just to flex his muscles?
I'm willing to bet that after the initial benching, Maddon cheered B.J. on for running out a grounder.
Because most normal managers would try this before benching a young star.
That is, when he runs hard, let him know you noticed, that it was good, and that it was appreciated.
Maddon isn't Bossman Senior. He shouldn't have to nurture any player on such a simple concept.
He shouldn't even have to think about behavior modification. He isn't trying to teach BJ better manners, or to be more organized, or more focused, or more (whatever).
This is simple stuff. Manager says run. You run.
There is no need to even think about positive or negative feedback. If he can't understand the when Maddon says to run, he needs to run, he needs to go back to grade one.
PS-I don't dislike BJ either. I actually really like the guy! I respect how hard he tried to become an MLB shortstop and I love watching him play. So these comments aren't based out of any dislike of the player. Just a dislike of the mindset that a manager should be a kindergarten teacher and that any attitude problem a player has is the result of a stupid manager.
Put it down all you want, but the simple fact is that saying "good hustle" when a guy hustles is (for the typical person) vastly more likely to induce a positive change in his typical behavior than is saying "you're benched" when he doesn't.
Managers do need lots of people skills but for something this mind bogglingly simple they shouldn't have to even think about how much positive feedback the guy needs.
This is on Upton. If he needs special treatment when it comes to a fundamental, menial part of his job.. then, well.. I don't know what to say.
I'm not saying that Maddon does. I don't know. But your assumption doesn't seem to be entirely warranted.
Who do you think is disagreeing with you on this point?
Nobody's saying Upton shouldn't run when Maddon says to run. No one's even saying that Upton shouldn't run without such prompting. And no one's saying that Maddon "should have to nurture" Upton.
What I am saying is that, if Upton is anything like a typical human, and if Maddon wants his team to score more runs, it would probably better behoove Maddon to nurture him than to punish him.
I understand that you think this shouldn't be necessary. But whether it should or should not be necessary is moot.
I'll answer a less absurdly phrased version of your question:
"Do you really think that positive feedback like 'good hustle' are more likely to have a positive effect than punishments such as benchings?"
Yes. Yes, I really do think that positive feedback like 'good hustle' are more likely to have a positive effect than punishments such as benchings.
Okay, but what step do you take if the positive reinforcement isn't working? In other words, when would benchings become appropriate?
How much positive feedback exactly does a guy need to run hard for 90 or 180 feet when he's making $412,000 a year and is in the middle of a pennant race?
Before that point, the only real reasons to bench him would be (A) there's another player who is better, or (B) you think that benching him will improve his play.
(A) isn't the case (even given the occasional dumbass play like this one), and (B) isn't likely, at least not long-term.
I'm certainly not doubting that positive feedback does produce the best results in general.
I think the point of contention is the idea that Maddon should even have to think about various ways to get someone to properly respond to such a simple, necessary command.
Quite a bold statement there!
But why not be specific- what positive feedback should Maddon offer to Upton, at this point in his career and the season, to get him to change his ways? Since the negative feedback isn't working, exactly what positive feedback do you recommend?
Skittles - I love Skittles.
I thought we already decided a simple 'good hustle' was appropriate?
[...]
Maddon is not managing this situation, at all. Yeah Upton's behaviour is bad but it's not like it's unpredictable - if you put down tough new rules you have to expect that the employees will test them! You have to expect that you'll have some people who are unmotivated, or troublesome, or just plain jerks - if everyone was these perfect angels you wouldn't need a manager to begin with. Really the whole situation is just totally infantile and only serves to remind me that professional athletes are just overgrown children. Maddon is the teacher trying to act tough to the class and Upton is the idiot trying to call him on it. Pathetic by both of them.
I find this point of view completely mind-boggling.
But look at it this way:
When Upton was cruising into second, there was no one covering the base. He had no reason to expect the throw to even come to second, much less to be tagged out. And what happened? He was out.
You know what Upton just learned, or should have just learned, assuming he's not a moron? That you <u>never</u> take anything for granted. If a lack of hustle out of the box leads to your being thrown out at a base when no one is even covering the base, well, that should teach you that sh<u>i</u>t f<u>u</u>cking happens. That tells you your manager is right, and you better get your head out of your ass.
Did you see Upton's face when the play was over? He had the look of "Oh, sh<u>i</u>t, it happened." He buried his head. He was embarrassed. He was proven wrong.
This play is the best thing that could have happened to Upton. Maddon couldn't have asked for anything more fortuitous. If Upton can't figure it out after this, there's no hope.
Also, I just wanted to let willcarrolsux know what a nice job he did at making his point. He showed some excellent communication skills, and made his point very eloquantly and patiently. Good job!
And conversely the reason for his "attitude" problems might well not be because he is an idiot, but because he isn't. In the grand scheme of things an athlete who is bright guy is more likely to react badly to managerial muscle flexing than other athletes as he is more likely to be less automatic in kow-towing to authority.
Those aren't the actions of a "bright guy". Those are the actions of an idiot that thinks he's smarter than he actually is.
The most important part of being smart is the ability to acknowledge when you're wrong.
For those who don't know, the track to which he is referring is "Slack Motherf***er"
Gary ignored him and Gary's teammates mocked it. Tom lost all around.
I understand and appreciate positive feedback. Just pointing out that it can also fail.
Hitting ground ball homers, well, that's smart laziness.
Assuming you're out hitting a two hopper to the pitcher..that's DUMB laziness
This is obviously too much in the opposite direction. It could even be taken as condescending or mocking behavior by the other party.
As many have said, we don't know EXACTLY what happened. But I think Maddon made a few mistakes here:
Rule #1. Don't talk to the press about it.
Seriously, screw them. If you're going to bench Upton, just bench him.
Rule #2. Don't allow for escalation and don't go into histrionics.
With a guy like Upton, yelling at him and begging him and then slowly upping the penalty does nothing (or very little). It's pretty obvious at this point is that Upton doesn't take to being "disrespected" well (whether it's reasonable to call this disrespect or not).
Rule #3. When you hit, hit hard.
A one-game benching was never going to solve this problem. I think sending him to the minors or benching him for a week would have been better.
If I had been Maddon, I would have a) never discussed this with the press. Just "no comment" until I'm blue in the face. b) Talked to Upton privately and quietly. Basically, "BJ, this is not acceptable. You're hurting the team and there will be consequences." Then, after the second offense (if there had been one), boom: either he's in the minors for two weeks or he's on the bench for a week. No press conferences, no explanations to the press other than "BJ isn't ready to play right now. Next question."
By trying to save face in the press and show that he has control of the team, I think Maddon is inflaming the situation. If you have to do things to show that you have control over a team or player, then you almost certainly don't.
Damn you Walt! - it was on the tip of my tongue and I couldn't nail it.
Maddon may be an idiot for walking Josh Hamilton with the bases loaded or having his best pitcher ejected in the early innings of a close game, but in this case it's hard to fault him. If the punishment continues day in and day out, it will eventually have an effect on Upton's behavior. Some organisms learn faster than others, however, and no one should take it for granted that Upton is particularly bright.
I disagree. The most astonishing aspect of this fiasco isn't that there are individuals who want to pin his continued half-assery on Maddon, it's that there are people who are apparently unable to see the difference between pinning continued half-assery completely on Maddon and pointing out that there may be blame to be had on both sides (even if the majority of the blame belongs to Upton).
(see also: Georgia v Russia)
Sheff, by all indications, is an asshat who gets along with no one, managers and teamates alike. He has also hit like a HoF for most of his career, which allows you to get away with acting like an asshat. Upton is hitting like an above-average player, and those players have to work hard, get along with others, or the team finds another one. Upton at this point looks more like a lesser Milton Bradley, who has bounced around through out his career, and his reputation isn't as bad as Sheff or Manny.
If Upton were hitting like he did last year, you likely would have never heard about this stuff. But he's not, which means he's been given less leeway. Maybe this is an early Sheff situation, and Upton wants out of town, I don't know. If Upton doesn't hit better OR get a better attitude, its going to cost him a lot of money. I'm not saying he's going to be run out of baseball. He'll just get short term contracts and be traded alot (Jose Guillen anybody?) Teams don't sign guys with a 110 OPS+ and a bad attitude to 7-year, 100 Million dollar contracts.
I think that Lassie - with all the trapped-mine saving, fire-warning, bank-robber-stopping and such - could certainly be defined as having a winning attitude.
And I'm not just saying that because we have oddly similar names.
You've all missed the larger point. The Yankees definitely should not sign Tex. With that kind of hussle, he's bound to get hurt. I mean sure, he got the out, but at the cost of risking a major ankle, knee or buttock injury. You just can't have that sort of player on your team.
Look, if you guys who want to blame Maddon can demonstrate that he was a bad ass tough guy manager when Upton was playing well or that he started with a benching as a respone to loafing then you have a point. But the burden of proof is on you, IMO. It is completely possible for a kid to just be a bad, lazy or indifferent kid, no matter how talented he is. I don't know this about Upton, but the evidence is starting to point that way.
He should have watched more Lassie, maybe he wouldn't have taken it so hard.
I think it's clear that Upton is just trying to make sure that the Rays don't pick up the options on his contract.
This might still turn out well for Upton on the free agent market, as long as he's got the talent of a Sheffield to go along with it. Which so far he hasn't demonstrated.
But there are always teams out there that think they can perform a virtual lobotomy on a loafer. And maybe Upton might miraculously grow up one day.
Whether it's going to turn out well for the Rays is another matter altogether. They've obviously got a shltload of talent, but they haven't come close to being tested yet.
This is why modern day management sucks. If it's not in some part the manager's responsibility to bring the best out of the team, then why the #### have a manager in the first place?
No, it's really not possible for a kid to be just a bad, lazy or indifferent kid, and I see hundreds and thousands of kids a year. There is no burden of proof that thoughtful, (not arbitrary) positive reinforcement is the best approach, and there's no question that it's the authority figures responsibility to reach out to every kid.
Upton certainly has his share of dog in him, and I think if the Rays can make a good deal they'll move him this off-season, but this specific play isn't going to be the tipping point.
As far as Maddon goes, I can't see any criticism of the way he's handled the team, but it can be disected here while he picks up his Manager of the Year trophy.
However there is a burden of proof that Maddon didn't employ those techniques. I know you see lots of kids. You've really never seen one that, despite efforts from everyone around him still turns out bad? Seriously? I generally have a lot of respect for your opinions on these matters, but if you're actually saying a kid can't just be a bad kid (bad being perhaps too general - substitute whatever criteria you wish, lazy in the case of Upton) even when given a number of breaks, then I daresay you're being a bit blind to the failings of the kids. You are quick to point out the failings of authority figures and organizations but when a kid goes bad (and kid here is also a pretty poor choice of word; Upton is 24. 24 year olds are adult men) or does bad things it is, sometimes, not the fault of those who have been authority figures in his life. Some people are fu(k ups. (Like, say, the authority figures you seek to blame - why don't they get some benefit of the doubt because of the folks who raised and taught them?). Now, that isn't nearly as high a number as some would suggest. But you've seen here a player exhibiting disturbing behavior for a young player. You have assumed that Maddon didn't use any sort of positive managing techniques because Upton continued to show the disturbing behavior. But that gives Upton far too much credit and Maddon far too little. It IS possible that Upton encountered the positive techniques and didn't give a damn. It is possible that Upton has no respect for any authority figure and is a "bad" (read lazy here) kid. It is possible to have someone who can't be managed or taught or raised. To deny this seems incredible to me.
You clearly have a great deal of faith in the kids you see and I'm glad there is someone like that in their lives. But that doesn't mean everyone of those kids is going to turn out well. Sometimes, a person just doesn't pan out well despite the best efforts of those around them.
Again, if you can show me something Maddon did, or didn't do, early on, I'll listen. But to come in in the middle of the story and blame Maddon because you think had he handled the situation differently Upton would be busting his ass is a poor use of logic or a naive belief in everyone's goodness (well, actually, you seem pretty comfortable not believing in Maddon's goodness).
Hey, it works in the movies.
Yes and no. Having taught high school and also worked with young adults in developmental ed, I've learned a couple of things:
1. There is often not as much of a difference between 16 and 24 as people think.
2. People mature at different rates.
You add in the kind of life Upton has had, I am sure in many ways he IS a kid.
It's easy to use tough-guy rhetoric. Trying to figure out how to motivate guys who are doing things like Upton does across cultural gaps while also meeting one's responsibilities to the group and maintaining authority--what one has to do in the high school classroom every day--is harder. Of course the context is different--Upton is a professional and he's an adult. Those things are real, and Upton is responsible for his actions. But as #74 pointed out, Upton looked embarrassed. Maddon's playing it cool as described in the other thread indicates to me Upton regretted it. Coming down on him for being a "punk" or a "loafer" or whtever may be viscerally satisfying, but in actually dealing with Upton Maddon will have to try a more nuanced approach.
I also wonder where Cliff Floyd is. It's a cliche, but young males often DO benefit from older mentor figures of the same culture/race if traditional authority figures are not getting through.
The Milwaukee Brewers specifically signed Dave Parker for that very reason.
Gary told Dave to "F*ck off".
I bring this up since it seems a "somewhat" apt contrast/comparison. Because Tom Trebelhorn tried the positive reinforcement approach and ended up losing his job. And Trebelhorn had won the job based partly on his ability to work with players of minority backgrounds. Greg Vaughn like playing for Trebelhorn. Glenn Bragg. The Latinos like Teddy and Navarro liked him.
Gary claimed it was because he was from the "hood" and spoke street slang that Trebelhorn didn't "understand" him. Trebelhorn responded by asking reporters quizzically, "How can I understand him when he refuses to speak to me?"
I still haven't seen the play so take this with a grain of salt, but I call b.s. on this. The ball was hit to left, so Upton had the play in front of him as he approached second. He certainly saw or should have seen that Rivera was throwing the ball towards second rather than third, so if he had any baseball instincts whatsoever he should have immediately accelerated. There were at least two players (Teixeira and Kendrick, if not the pitcher as well) who could have been approaching the bag from somewhere beyond his peripheral vision to try to make a play. I am amazed at how many attempts there have been in this thread to excuse the inexcusable.
It's not either/or. This is one of many mistakes people make when they talk about stuff like this. If Upton has to be disciplined, you make sure you do two things: First, indicate it's not personal, not "Listen you lazy ####### punk, I'm the manager here and I am going to put you in your place." Second, you explain the behavior, why the behavior is a problem, and show Upton he is valued as an individaul, but you as the authority figure have to enforce the rules for the good of the team, which you have to be ressponsible for, and put it in that context. I teach construction workers as one of my night gigs, some of whom have prison records and other issues, and discipline is always, "Nothing personal, dude, but we have the rules for the good of the group and I have to be fair to the other guys. I want them to succeed and I want you to succeed." No dickwaving confrontational ########.
Maybe. But Sheffield went on to a great career, and I don't get the impression they are similar personalities. Sheffield is more confrontational.
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