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Friday, May 30, 2014

Johnny Damon says he was ‘booted’ from MLB because he didn’t take PEDs

Damon Records: My Sadness.

Johnny Damon’s career might have ended a little prematurely — and against his will — all because he didn’t take performance-enhancing drugs.

Well, at least that’s what he thinks.

The longtime major leaguer claims that he was forced out of baseball for staying away from steroids and other PEDs.

“I played it clean,” Damon said during a recent interview on 810 CBS Sports in Orlando. “That’s what everybody’s going to be looking at. I think I’m one of the only players to come out and say, ‘I guarantee you there is nothing I’ve done that enhanced my baseball career.’”

Damon insists that he played his entire 18-year MLB career without ever using PEDs. But the two-time World Series champ said that players only receive a “slap on the wrist” these days when they get caught cheating, so he understands why so many choose to do it.

“You can’t fault someone who has a chance to make $20 million, $50 million, $100 million for going against the system to get to where they are. You can’t fault them, but I’m as clean as they came and I got booted out of the game because I’m clean,” Damon said. “I sound a little bitter, but I’m not. I have six great kids and I get to be around them every day now. But there are certain guys who cheated the system and they’re still being patted on the back. That’s not great for our kids.”

Repoz Posted: May 30, 2014 at 10:57 PM | 62 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, steroids

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   1. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 30, 2014 at 11:14 PM (#4716409)
Yawn.
   2. Jacob Posted: May 30, 2014 at 11:22 PM (#4716415)
Yeah, but what about the kids, Ray? Think about the children for Christ's sake!
   3. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 30, 2014 at 11:31 PM (#4716423)
Johnny should avoid the talking thing. It's not really his strength.
   4. Barnaby Jones Posted: May 30, 2014 at 11:47 PM (#4716433)
I think I’m one of the only players to come out and say, ‘I guarantee you there is nothing I’ve done that enhanced my baseball career.’”


Yes, I have to agree this is not something most players would say.
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4716440)
He sounds like an Idiot.
   6. Cooper Nielson Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4716442)
“That’s what everybody’s going to be looking at. I think I’m one of the only players to come out and say, ‘I guarantee you there is nothing I’ve done that enhanced my baseball career.’”

You and Ryan Braun.
   7. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:41 AM (#4716453)
6 Kids?
   8. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:51 AM (#4716457)
So age and salary demands mean nothing? Damon needs to get over himself.
   9. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:03 AM (#4716460)
It's kind of crazy, though. Damon had a pretty typical Damon season in 2011 and then he was just flat out done after that. I kind of wonder if the whole missing spring training thing affected him at all.
   10. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:29 AM (#4716464)
Damon's not talking to you, he's talking to them. His Hall of Fame voting percentage just went up 5%.
   11. cardsfanboy Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:31 AM (#4716466)
“I played it clean,” Damon said during a recent interview on 810 CBS Sports in Orlando. “That’s what everybody’s going to be looking at. I think I’m one of the only players to come out and say, ‘I guarantee you there is nothing I’ve done that enhanced my baseball career.’”


reading between the lines, does this imply that Jeter was a PED user? After all, Jeter is the same age and stuck around two years longer...so if Damon was forced out because he refused to take, does that mean guys like Jeter did PEDs?

   12. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:39 AM (#4716469)
I hope it does cfb just to male the media #### its self.
   13. Yellow Tango Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:46 AM (#4716472)
I don't have any evidence of this. I'm only making a supposition based on the media stories. This conclusion is based on almost nothing of substance whatsoever. I want to make note of this statement, though, for future reference.

Derek Jeter used illegal steroids.

Do with that what you will, Hall of Fame voters.
   14. donlock Posted: May 31, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4716491)
In what sense is having an 18 year career end being booted out of baseball? When it's over, it's over. Talk to Vlad Guerrero.
   15. Moeball Posted: May 31, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4716494)
Shouldn't an article about how Johnny Damon was forced out of baseball because he didn't do PEDs...actually explain how they forced him out? Did the owners all get together and say "Heck no, we won't sign Johnny Damon because he's too clean"?

So, if I understand correctly what he's saying:

1)Damon believes a whole boatload of players, i.e., almost all of them, were using, and NOT being a user makes you a minority outcast
2)Not using is the one thing that will get the owners to collude so that no one will sign you and pay you large sums of $$

Ergo, Barry Bonds must have been the squeaky cleanest player ever? QED.
   16. Captain Supporter Posted: May 31, 2014 at 09:44 AM (#4716498)
As usual, the people on this site are totally tone deaf. Its laughable how most of you fail to understand that both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.

Fortunately, you are on the losing side of this debate.

   17. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: May 31, 2014 at 09:50 AM (#4716499)
I think it's pretty clear that he was trying to say that if it weren't for his competitors using, his stats would have been better (both directly due to pitchers being worse and relatively due to hitters being worse), and he would have found a job. Personally, I think he's overestimating both himself and PEDs, but the idea that he was implying a cabal of pro-PED owners who twirled their mustaches and banned him from the shadows while giving evil MUA-HA-HA laughs strikes me as a pretty ridiculous reading. Do you people actually read it that way, or are you just purposely interpreting his words in the stupidest possible way?
   18. Nasty Nate Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4716507)
ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.


Well the owners want one that slopes ever so slightly down from the middle of the field so that it drains easier after rain; I hope there is no work stoppage because of this.
   19. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4716511)
Its laughable how most of you fail to understand that both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.


It's laughable how you think that the general public wants a level playing field, when they would be perfectly happy to cheer for a guy that used steroids if he helps them win games. All you have to do is look at all the players that have been suspended/caught by steroid tests and how they are welcomed back to their old teams (or to new teams).

The only outrage by the fans is when OTHER team's players get caught.
   20. Tippecanoe Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:39 AM (#4716513)
both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field


...like in the NFL, where everybody uses. It's what makes it so popular!
   21. dejarouehg Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4716514)
More than anything, Damon's claim of being "booted" b/c of his failure to engage in PED usage does nothing more than confirm the impression that he is a mental lightweight. Nice guy, good player but still a 40-watt bulb. (Personally, I don't believe him anyway.)

Of course, I'm sure he has an explanation for the Peralta anc Cabrera post-PED contracts.

What is more astonishing is that people still deny the benefits of PEDs. Not caring for whatever reason is fine, but to dismiss the impact it can have on a player's performance is baffling.
   22. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:57 AM (#4716518)
As usual, the people on this site are totally tone deaf. Its laughable how most of you fail to understand that both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.


It's laughable how you think that the general public wants a level playing field, when they would be perfectly happy to cheer for a guy that used steroids if he helps them win games. All you have to do is look at all the players that have been suspended/caught by steroid tests and how they are welcomed back to their old teams (or to new teams).

The only outrage by the fans is when OTHER team's players get caught.


That's not always the case, as Rafael Palmeiro and Jason Giambi could tell you when they returned after their suspensions, not to mention A-Rod. But as a general rule you're right, because winning trumps everything in sports and pretty much everything else.

OTOH outside of BTF and a few ACLU types, have you seen any public reaction at all against the institution of testing? If anything, it's mostly been that the penalties are too light. Have you seen much (or any) sympathy for players who test positive? At best they're thought of as being stupid for getting caught. I don't think you can pin down the public's view on PEDs other than to say that given the choice, they'd rather that the game be rid of them.
   23. joeysdadjoe Posted: May 31, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4716532)
It would have helped him if he went from being a very good CF(albeit a bad armed one) to a very good LF instead of a shitty one. That and the salary demands. When the Yankees sign Ibanez over you because they think Raul is better in left that says a lot.
   24. valuearbitrageur Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4716534)
6 Kids?


That's only the ones he knows of!

And I don't kniw bout PEDs, but the chances of Jonny Damon not taking drugs during his career are


"Zero point Zero!!!!"
   25. Publius Publicola Posted: May 31, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4716538)
Do you people actually read it that way, or are you just purposely interpreting his words in the stupidest possible way?


Here, it's usually the latter.
   26. Ray K Posted: May 31, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4716549)
With all due respect to Johnny Damon, a cursory glance at BBREF shows a 38-year-old LF/DH with a 72 OPS+ in his last season, playing on his 4th team in 4 seasons.

It's looks like a typical final season washout to me. In the end, he got to play almost 2500 games in the big leagues, including two World Series appearances, earning over $100 million in salary over 18 years, without ever really have a great season (peak OPS+ was 118).

He should be on his hands and knees kissing the feet of the statues of the baseball gods who showered him with so much favor and good fortune.
   27. Eddo Posted: May 31, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4716555)
   28. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: May 31, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4716559)
How did he do it?
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: May 31, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4716584)
As usual, the people on this site are totally tone deaf. Its laughable how most of you fail to understand that both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.

Fortunately, you are on the losing side of this debate.


As usual you don't seem to understand any of the arguments or comments being made, it's laughable how unable to grasp basic concepts you are.

No one is arguing for PED's. They are arguing about the revisionistic history and hysteria in which people who are talking about it are going to. Damon is out of baseball not because he didn't use PED's, but because he was no longer a good enough player to be worth the salary he commanded. Anything more than minimum wage for him would have been a negative to a team. He is basically saying if he used PED's, his numbers would have been better and he would have stayed in the league....well duh. It's not about PED's it's about actual value to the team. Why should a team want a "clean" player who doesn't produce?

As to level playing field.... that is just silly. The vast majority want the perception of level playing field unless their team is the one taking advantage then they want the system left alone. There is a reason that most Yankee fans don't want a salary cap system or revenue sharing, it's their team being hurt by it.
   30. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 31, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4716595)
As to level playing field.... that is just silly. The vast majority want the perception of level playing field unless their team is the one taking advantage then they want the system left alone.

Do you think fans of steroids users would rather have juiceless versions of those players without suspensions, or juiced up players who are but one test away from a long suspension or even a possible lifetime ban? Were the Yankees really better off because A-Rod was juicing up? Do Brewers' fans think that Ryan Braun's steroid-driven enhancements (whatever they may have been over his "normal" level) were worth losing him for 65 games? Do you think they're hoping he's still at it, knowing that the next suspension will be even longer?
   31. Hank G. Posted: May 31, 2014 at 04:10 PM (#4716596)
The guy earned $111 million in his MLB career. If he was bitter, he’d be an ingrate.
   32. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 31, 2014 at 04:26 PM (#4716601)
Do you people actually read it that way, or are you just purposely interpreting his words in the stupidest possible way?


One does not have to interpret these comments in the stupidest way possible to come to the conclusion that these are stupid words. Hell, one doesn't even need to have intimate knowledge of Johnny Damon's history of stupid utterances.

Johnny Damon was a poor fielding, 72 OPS+ corner outfielder his last season in Cleveland. He lost his job because he wasn't any good.

He struggled to find a job before the 2012 season because every team in baseball believed that his primary motivation was to get the hits necessary to reach 3,000, and thus teams (rightly, I think) deduced he wasn't going to be content as some lefty bat off the bench/fill-in OF/DH.

Rampant use of PEDs 9 years after testing was introduced had nothing to do with his exit from the game.
   33. cardsfanboy Posted: May 31, 2014 at 04:38 PM (#4716608)
Do you think fans of steroids users would rather have juiceless versions of those players without suspensions, or juiced up players who are but one test away from a long suspension or even a possible lifetime ban?


Isn't that a loaded question. Given a choice between a clean 140 ops+ hitting shortstop and a PED using 140 ops+ hitting shortstop, of course you are going to want the clean one.

Were the Yankees really better off because A-Rod was juicing up?

Absolutely. I don't think that is a debate. Depending on how much it helped him of course. If it's like McGwire claimed and it was there only to keep him in the lineup, the Yankees had years of A-rod in the lineup.


Do Brewers' fans think that Ryan Braun's steroid-driven enhancements (whatever they may have been over his "normal" level) were worth losing him for 65 games? Do you think they're hoping he's still at it, knowing that the next suspension will be even longer?


Braun's suspension timed perfectly for the Brewers, they weren't in the playoff hunt when he got suspended, missed the rest of the season and came back this year. I don't think anyone is hoping a player is using (except a few gms) they are hoping that the PED's didn't make that huge of a difference. That the player can still keep up his line drive rate and numbers, with only a drop in homeruns(it's not realistic thinking of course, but it's what I imagine people are hoping for when they have a Braun or a Peralta on the team)
   34. Srul Itza Posted: May 31, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4716631)
Were the Yankees really better off because A-Rod was juicing up?


2009. Flags fly forever.
   35. Srul Itza Posted: May 31, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4716635)
He should be on his hands and knees kissing the feet of the statues of the baseball gods who showered him with so much favor and good fortune.


Let's not go overboard. Johnny Damon was a perfectly fine player who amassed 56 WAR, and helped his teams to two rings, in 2004 and 2009.

In 2004, he as a 117 OPS+ Player for Boston, and had good ALDS and WS that year -- and while his ALCS was not so hot, he managed 2 HR and 6 RBI in Game 7.

In 2009, he was a 118 OPS+ Player for New York, and had a decent ALCs and WS.

Right up until he hit the cliff, he was a useful and productive player over a long career. He prospered, not because of favor and good fortune from the baseball gods, but because he was a good player.
   36. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: May 31, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4716642)
Damon, with the Red Sox, was a good bat, decent glove, piss poor arm and an egomaniac. And he said a lot of dumb things, as SoSH attests upthread.

I liked him. His chest thumping was amusing. His game 7 of the ALCS in '04 clinches his spot in my heart.
   37. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 31, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4716656)
Do you think fans of steroids users would rather have juiceless versions of those players without suspensions, or juiced up players who are but one test away from a long suspension or even a possible lifetime ban?

Isn't that a loaded question. Given a choice between a clean 140 ops+ hitting shortstop and a PED using 140 ops+ hitting shortstop, of course you are going to want the clean one.


But that wasn't the question. The question is whether the risk of losing a key player for a long stretch is worth whatever extra boost the PED's may have brought about. I'm not sure that's always that easy a question to answer, unless you think that steroids are magic pills and that superstar juicers will never get caught at key points in the season. That wasn't the case with Braun last year or with Melky the year before that, but that's mostly due to luck on their teams' part.

Were the Yankees really better off because A-Rod was juicing up?

Absolutely. I don't think that is a debate. Depending on how much it helped him of course.


Srul put it best when he said that Flags Fly Forever. But at best that's hindsight, and (1) we don't really know for sure that he was juicing in 2009; or that (2) if he had been, that he couldn't possibly have been caught and suspended for the postseason. You can make a general case that steroids will help a smart player who sticks to the program and doesn't get caught, but in fact 2009 was a decidedly mediocre year for A-Rod (well under his career OPS+ up to that point) until he caught fire in October.
   38. Srul Itza Posted: May 31, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4716660)
until he caught fire in October


Caught fire? Or got a little help?
   39. Booey Posted: May 31, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4716694)
Its laughable how most of you fail to understand that both the ballplayers and the general public want a level playing field.


You're right. It was a level playing field in the 90's when everyone had equal opportunity to use without risking suspension, and the fans did indeed love it.
   40. TJ Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:16 PM (#4716708)
Say what you will about Johnny Damon, he still inspired possibly the best fan sign ever after leaving Boston for the Yankees, which went something like "Looks like Jesus, acts like Judas, throws like Mary". If there were ever a Hall of Fame for great signs, that one would be a no-doubt first ballot inductee...
   41. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4716712)
"Looks like Jesus, acts like Judas, throws like Mary"

Yeah, that was it exactly. I loved Damon as a Yankee, but that was still the greatest sign ever.


   42. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 31, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4716720)
With all due respect to Johnny Damon, a cursory glance at BBREF shows a 38-year-old LF/DH with a 72 OPS+ in his last season, playing on his 4th team in 4 seasons.


Clearly if he had taken the steroids magic beans spinach pills he'd have had the late 30s peak of Barry Bonds and would have played more years.
   43. bobm Posted: June 01, 2014 at 01:22 AM (#4716756)
   44. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 01, 2014 at 02:02 PM (#4716866)
I wonder...if Johnny is perceived by the writers as being some kind of anti-steroids hero, does he have a legit HoF shot? Two rings, 2769 hits and 56 WAR aren't exactly inner circle stats, but there are plenty of guys in the Hall who fall short of these numbers. (Maybe if he stays in the game as a coach or a broadcaster?)
   45. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 01, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4716869)
I wonder...if Johnny is perceived by the writers as being some kind of anti-steroids hero, does he have a legit HoF shot?


No.

At no point in his career was JD thought of as a future Hall of Famer. No further re-examination of his numbers will cause a change in that. An anti-steroids position isn't going to get him anywhere close.

He'll be damn lucky to see a second ballot.

   46. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 01, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4717001)
I wonder...if Johnny is perceived by the writers as being some kind of anti-steroids hero, does he have a legit HoF shot? Two rings, 2769 hits and 56 WAR aren't exactly inner circle stats,


Those are Ichiro's stats too -- right down to the exact same hits total of 2769.

And we see how differently the two players are perceived.

But Damon was a similar hitter to Ichiro in style and not _that_ far off in results (although they were shaped differently), and he was a similar baserunner (actually a better one according to b-r). Damon gets hurt by 1300 PA from ages 21-23 at an 88 OPS+ -- years which Ichiro didn't have to play through in the majors -- although Ichiro is now several years into a decline phase on the back end. Ichiro was a better offensive player and gets more defensive value according to b-r which is a neat trick for a RF as compared to an average CF.

Yes, Ichiro is a better candidate because he packed 55 WAR into 10 years whereas Damon compiled 50 WAR in 13 years. But they are not so far apart as players that one candidate is seen as a shoo-in while the other is seen as a joke.
   47. Booey Posted: June 02, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4717278)
But they are not so far apart as players that one candidate is seen as a shoo-in while the other is seen as a joke.


If the HOF was the HoM that might be true. But Damon didn't average 220 hits a year for 10 years. He did hit .350 four times and finish with a lifetime average of .315-.320 (going off memory). He didn't win 2 batting titles, set the rookie and all time single season hits records, win ROY and MVP, or win a pile of gold gloves. Using the same criteria the HOF has used historically, I'd say that Ichiro really is light years ahead of Damon as a candidate.
   48. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4717333)
But they are not so far apart as players that one candidate is seen as a shoo-in while the other is seen as a joke.


If the HOF was the HoM that might be true.

Stop trying to shatter the poor boy's illusions, Booey. He's been confusing the two institutions ever since the day he joined BTF. Let him enjoy his fantasy world in peace.
   49. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4717404)

Damon gets hurt by 1300 PA from ages 21-23 at an 88 OPS+ -- years which Ichiro didn't have to play through in the majors

I don't want to turn this into another Ichiro thread, but "years which Ichiro didn't have to play through in the majors" could arguably be written as "years which Ichiro didn't get to play through in the majors." From ages 20-26 Ichiro consistently put up .900+ OPS seasons in Japan, after which he came to the US and immediately began producing at a high level. Based on his statistics, there's no reason to think he was a worse hitter at age 20 than he was at 26 or 27.
   50. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4717454)
Don't get Ray started, Dave, because you know that he will.
   51. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4717457)
If you start him up he'll never stop.
   52. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4717461)
If a bloop double falls in the Aokigahara forest, does it make a sound? And is that sound "meh"?
   53. alilisd Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4717566)
Two rings, 2769 hits and 56 WAR aren't exactly inner circle stats, but there are plenty of guys in the Hall who fall short of these numbers.


Yes, but those guys weren't elected by the writers, by and large.
   54. Ron J2 Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4717570)
#53 And Frankie Frisch was never a friend of Abreau.
   55. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4717584)
I don't want to turn this into another Ichiro thread, but "years which Ichiro didn't have to play through in the majors" could arguably be written as "years which Ichiro didn't get to play through in the majors." From ages 20-26 Ichiro consistently put up .900+ OPS seasons in Japan, after which he came to the US and immediately began producing at a high level. Based on his statistics, there's no reason to think he was a worse hitter at age 20 than he was at 26 or 27.


I'll give you that he may have been an ok hitter at ages 24-26, even though hitters generally aren't at peak form then, but expecting a hitter to be ready to roll from ages 20-23 is flawed. Particularly at 20-21. Really, I don't know where you people come up with this stuff.

And lest we forget you guys expected him to churn out Ichiro! type seasons through age 40 also. And yet the fact that he has been worthless as a hitter from ages 37-40 didn't cause you to re-think your extreme assertion that he would have been a star hitter at age 20 also.
   56. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4717593)
Don't get Ray started, Dave, because you know that he will.

Well, that was the safest bet since the '07 Red Sox over the Rockies. (smile)

   57. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4717598)
Particularly at 20-21. Really, I don't know where you people come up with this stuff.


I think I know where he came up with it. Ichiro basically performed at the same level, for the same team, at 20 as he did at 26 (and the same at 21 as he did at 25). Now whether that pattern would have been followed at the major league level is a reasonable question, but it's not like there isn't some evidence that Ichiro changed little as a hitter between the ages of 20 and 26.

   58. Jeff R., P***y Mainlander Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4717664)
I'll give you that he may have been an ok hitter at ages 24-26, even though hitters generally aren't at peak form then, but expecting a hitter to be ready to roll from ages 20-23 is flawed. Particularly at 20-21. Really, I don't know where you people come up with this stuff.

And lest we forget you guys expected him to churn out Ichiro! type seasons through age 40 also. And yet the fact that he has been worthless as a hitter from ages 37-40 didn't cause you to re-think your extreme assertion that he would have been a star hitter at age 20 also.



His batting averages from 20-26 are, in order: .385, .342, .356, .345, .358, .343, .387. What exactly in that sequence says to you "Not ready to hit at ages 20-21?"
   59. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4717674)
Those are Ichiro's stats too -- right down to the exact same hits total of 2769.


Of course, that ignores the fact that Ichiro did that in 1600 less plate appearances.
And that Ichiro had a higher peak.
And that he's added far more value on the base paths.
And was a better fielder (could you find two contemporary OF with a greater difference in perceived arm strength).
And won more individual awards.

But I'm sure it's still a good comparison....
   60. cardsfanboy Posted: June 02, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4717693)
His batting averages from 20-26 are, in order: .385, .342, .356, .345, .358, .343, .387. What exactly in that sequence says to you "Not ready to hit at ages 20-21?"


because historically players are not ready to hit at the majors at that age, so it must go that he was unable to hit at that age, and it's a fluke of randomness that he did(or it's evidence of how much inferior the japanese leagues must be)

(note:not my opinion of course.)

Considering that one of Ichiro's primary weapons for batting was speed, it's fairly safe to assume he had that skill when he was 20 and probably lost some of that when he got older, so his older decline makes sense, and shouldn't figure into rating his youth ability.
   61. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:01 PM (#4717711)
Ah, this takes me back. It's been a while since Ray hijacked an unrelated thread into an argument about his hobbyhorse. I'm sure this will go differently than all the other times this exact discussion was had.
   62. cardsfanboy Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4717718)
Ah, this takes me back. It's been a while since Ray hijacked an unrelated thread into an argument about his hobbyhorse. I'm sure this will go differently than all the other times this exact discussion was had.


Nothing wrong with having an obsession or dozen.... I understand his point, but absolutely disagree with him on his conclusion.

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