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1. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: June 05, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4149094)He's at best third behind the guy who jumped the stands at the Super Bowl and no one noticed. And the guy who duped security and got to celebrate with the Stanley Cup with the Penguins.
That's great and all, but he should probably have those children taken away for raising them as Met fans. Why would you subject one kid to that, let alone 2? It's almost as bad as raising them Oriole or Pirate fans.
Too much excitement for a no-hitter that was actually a one-hitter.
The box score didn't show a hit. What are you referring to?
The box score didn't show a hit. What are you referring to?
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120601&content_id=32625200&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
Blah blah blah.
I'm still not getting your point-- the box score doesn't show a hit.
As evidenced by the fact that the Mets hadn't had one in their 50 year history.
I'm still not getting your point-- the box score doesn't show a hit.
Stop being so dense. The box score doesn't show a hit because of the blown call in the sixth inning by third base umpire Adrian Johnson. It was clearly a hit, but Johnson called it foul.
Take a back seat to this guy.
That doesn't mean that formerly dp has to pretend not to understand what Chen's issue is.
Out of malice aforethought? Consortium with gamblers? Secret love affair with Johan Santana?
Doesn't show up in the box score, is not a hit.
That doesn't mean that formerly dp has to pretend not to understand what Chen's issue is.
I understand what Chen's issue is, but I'm not sure you do. This is a thread about Stewart's reaction to the no-hitter. That Chen's still insisting it wasn't, in spite of the fact that it was, is completely irrelevant to Stewart's reaction.
That you come into the thread to tell us we shouldn't derive joy from the event is utterly predictable, but also boring, Robot Boy.
I'm sure they enjoy sniping at other people's joy.
And after that game last night, I'm guessing he's right back to where he was before the no-hitter. It's been a while since I've seen a team choke away victory so many times in just one game.
Wait, are you counting me? I think mine's more of a hand-wave.
And after that game last night, I'm guessing he's right back to where he was before the no-hitter. It's been a while since I've seen a team choke away victory so many times in just one game.
Yes, your team doing it twice vs. us doing it three times was quite a victory of competence by them.
Approximately half of the posts on this thread appear to be from people incapable of feeling joy.
Let it be a lesson, Mets fans, when you have to be told this by a Red Sox fan. ;-)
Then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the Jays' bullpen.
Mickey Mantle hitting a ball out of Griffith Stadium...that's CLEARLY a hit. A vicious liner right down the third base line...that's CLEARLY a hit to only Carlos Beltran and his Mom and idiots.
They pitched back-to-back shutouts this past weekend. It's easy to win when your starters can pitch like that. The no-hitter was Santana's second straight complete-game shutout. If they get Davis out of the lineup, and Tejada back at SS, the lineup won't really have any holes in it. Except for Jason Bay.
Scott Hairston's at .293/.340/.626. Clearly not worth a roster spot.
No, the arguments are
"I see no reason why someone would say this was a no-hitter"
"I see no reason why someone would say this was not a no-hitter"
and the classic
"I see no reason why someone would be impressed by a no-hitter"
Other than Santana and Dickey, their pitching is basically atrocious. From top to bottom it's one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball, especially when you take into account that they play so many games in a pitchers' park.
Their defense? Atrocious! The way they played defense last night was so bad, it reminded me of the Nationals from about three years ago, and that's really bad.
Granted, their offense has been pretty good so far, but it looks to me like they've been scoring more runs than they should be based on their peripherals. I assume that they've probably been hitting with runners in scoring position at a rate that isn't sustainable over the long haul.
I stand by my belief that the Mets are a blatantly obvious collapse just waiting to happen, especially in this division.
He had a 2.84 ERA in 2010 (138 OPS+), in comparison to this year's 2.69 ERA (138 OPS+). In between those seasons, he had a 3.28 ERA (111 OPS+). It really doesn't seem unlikely that he could continue pitching like this all season.
Dickey has refined his whole approach this year-- he's not going to throw shut-outs every time, the increased strikeout rate is evidence that the new approach is working. Gee and Niese are still progressing. It's worth pointing out that the front 4 combined are striking out about a batter per inning.
I assume that they've probably been hitting with runners in scoring position at a rate that isn't sustainable over the long haul.
They've also been playing without their starting LF, SS, and C for about a month now. They just got Thole back, Bay's getting activated today and Tejeda should be back soon, though he keeps reinjuring his quad. I didn't see the whole game last night, but it's worth keeping in mind that the Mets are playing their 4th string SS right now-- Tejada, Cedeno and Turner are all on the DL.
They are doing it like a 90's moneyball team. Everybody hits, nobody fields, front-line starters, no bullpen.
They work a lot of deep counts, but have no power.
More accurately: "I see no reason why someone would be any more impressed by a no-hitter than by any excellent pitching performance."
What is impressive about it, compared to, say, a 2-hit shutout? Do you think major league baseball pitchers are so good that a distinction in skill level exists between the two?
If no distinction in skill level exists, it's pure fluke.
10 hit shutouts are rarer than 2 hit shutouts but that doesn't make them more impressive.
Impressive relates to skill level, not to flukes.
For example, 20-K games are more impressive than no-hitters. Jamie Moyer could throw a no hitter. He could never strike out 20 hitters in a game.
Join the club dude; the Mets are hardly the only team dealing with injuries. It seems like practically every team in baseball now has multiple key players on the DL.
It's incredibly hard to be a champion fast-walker, and the Olympic champions exhibit great skill, but the sport looks dumb and no one cares. It's incredibly hard to solve a pure math problem, and professional mathematicians have skills I have trouble comprehending, but no one sits around watching people do pure math, because it's boring. Aesthetics and experience are always a big part of our appreciation of achievements.
The aesthetics and the experience of a no-hitter are different from those of an exceptional start. Watching a no-hitter, late the game, hoping that a ball doesn't drop in, is a tremendous experience. It's quite different from the enjoyment of a great start.
There's also history. Baseball is a great game, but for weird historical reasons it caught on in some countries and not in others. For various reasons, no-hitters became a part of the history of the game, they are tracked, written about, and remembered. Part of being a sports fan is participating in that shared history, becoming a member of a community that stretches back in time. Jon Stewart's comments to his kids - "I can't believe you guys saw that with me" - reflect the joy that comes with sharing an experience with historical significance.
This has been another edition of Humanity 101, classroom of one, for Ray DiPerna.
The Mets started the club.
You were talking about the team's ability to sustain its performance going forward. I think getting 1/3 of their opening day lineup back might help them do so. They've been winning with Mike Nickeas (.141/.225/.219) and Ike Davis (.160/.226/.274) in the lineup, and getting guys back from the DL will hopefully push those players out of the lineup.
Actually, you're just confusing the word impressive for the word exciting.
If you want to get excited about a no hitter, or about Keeping up with the Kardashians, go right ahead.
But personally, I just think it was a great night.
I suppose if you're a believer in absolute objective truth that means the drama is an illusion, but I think that misses the point. Santana cared that it was a no-hitter, Jon Stewart cared that it was a no-hitter, I imagine 99% of the people at the part cared that it was a no-hitter. The will he/won't he tension (and the excitement when he eventually did) is what makes a no-hitter special.
Gee and Niese have both done worse than their peripherals. That seems to be becoming a pattern for Niese, however. Usually it's with really high BABIPs; this year it is a lot of HR. 4 of their SP have xFIPs below 3.50.
But it's still hard for me to take them totally seriously since they have been outscored on the season.
Right now Dickey's ERA+ (138) is exactly what it was in 2010. He's not as good as he's been the last couple of weeks (and he's not as good as his record), but it wouldn't be at all surprising for him to end the year as one of the best ~15 starters in the league. That's about the level he's pitched at overall this year and isn't much above where he was in 2011.
I have no real objection to this. I was mainly commenting on the "impressive" aspect.
**Top B-R SRS in the NL East? Atlanta at 0.3. That'd be good for 6th place in the AL East.
So it's not impressive at all, or less impressive than more impressive things?
Actually, that was you. Bruce Chen started this by asking why anyone would be excited by this. You jumped in with the whole killjoying thing you do, converting the conversation into one about its impressiveness.
I agree with Ray, to an extent. No-hitters tend to involve a fair degree of luck and are thus, to some extent, flukes. There are plenty of pitching performances that weren't no-hitters that were more impressive than any number of no-hitters. But that just raises the question of what we are celebrating when we celebrate a no-hitter. I think we're celebrating excellence to an extent, but also the wonderful twists of fate that result in a rare achievement. Which is why I think the "It wasn't a true no-hitter" crowd is so silly.
Everyone knows that no-hitters usually involve a fair degree of luck, that they can be not meaningfully different than one- or three-hit shutouts, and that there are many non no-hitters (Woods' 20-game, most notably) that are far more dominant than the average no-hitter. Ray isn't exactly breaking new ground here.
The question becomes, as you note, what are we celebrating? Some of us are capable of appreciating and enjoying the sport beyond simply its exhibition of pure talent manifestation. Ray isn't.
I found the Red Sox collapse both exciting and impressive. Eye of the beholder, I guess.
Frankly, we should all be thankful that Ray doesn't dream of electric sheep. Once Tyrell Corporation achieves that "breakthrough", one thing is for certain: there will be no stopping them.
And I, for one, welcome our new
insectDiPerna overlords and would like to remind them that as a trusted BBTF personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in theirunderground sugar cavesinterminable online political threads ...Isn't that the same of perfect games?
There's some luck that an umpire doesn't #### up a call.
There's some luck that the wind keeps a ball from being a home run.
There's some luck that the fielders don't botch a routine play.
I guess the only game that would be considered "impressive" would be a 27K, no-hit, no-walk, swinging-strikes-only (to remove umpire bias) performance. Everything else involves "luck".
Ouch!
+
Blah blah blah.
+
Doesn't show up in the box score, is not a hit.
+
A vicious liner right down the third base line...that's CLEARLY a hit to only Carlos Beltran and his Mom and idiots.
Stop trying and failing to harsh the Santana no-hitter buzz. These are, I'm sure, the same box score fans who enthusiastically endorsed the home run Derek Jeter blasted into the rightfield stands in the 1996 ALCS.
Wait, I was not involved in this, I was - poorly - combating it.
I think the healthy Dodgers are a good team, but I do agree with you that the A.L. East is clearly the best division in baseball, and that overall the N.L. isn't very good. Having said that, the N.L. East is quite clearly the second best division, and no other division is really close.
Starting Friday, the Nationals play 15 straight games against the A.L. East. It's by far the toughest stretch of the season, and I look forward to seeing how they manage to hold up. If they can do reasonably well, the Nationals are in it for the long haul and will have as good a chance to win the division as anyone.
YMMV.
Vs. LHP: .361/.400/.770, 7 HR in 61 AB.
Plus 2 of the better NL teams (Dodgers and Cardinals) did not play in the last set of inter-league games. The SRS is based on a small sample.
Scott Hairston is both ugly and he sucks. Given the results of my hatred, to think anything else of him is in no one's best interest at this point.
Sorry Lassus, I just texted third base ump Adrian Johnson, and he said you were totally involved in this.
I only worked home runs, I swear. Also, I didn't think the implants were working yet.
On the mound, top to bottom and including minor leaguers -- I don't think there's a staff in baseball I'd rather have. The Nats might be a bit more top heavy at this very moment, but I think I'd still take Hanson/Minor/Beachy/Teheran/Delgado/assorted interesting but troubled pieces like Medlen/Jurrjens/etc over anyone else.
That is, if we're going to count what should have happened instead of what actually happened.
Which is asinine. (And not what you're arguing. It's just a theme going on upthread.)
- - - - -
Why is a no-hitter more impressive than a 2-hitter? Two fewer hits. I'm not arguing it's much more impressive; I'm just saying it is more impressive. You seemed adamant earlier that people should be equally impressed by either, which I fail to understand how you can't see that one is more impressive than the other.
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