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Monday, July 07, 2014

Jose Bautista calls MLB’s replay system “a joke”

“This whole replay thing has become a joke in my eyes. I think they should just ban it, they should just get rid of it, I don’t really understand the purpose of it, but getting the right call on the field is not the purpose. That’s pretty obvious and evident. I don’t know what kind of agenda the people that are doing the replays are on, what their plan is, what their purpose is, who they’re looking after. But obviously getting the right call on the field is not what they’re doing.”

The 1:02 mark looks like a pretty clean miss to me.

Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:03 AM | 53 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, jose bautista, replay sucks

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 07, 2014 at 06:35 AM (#4744969)
Maybe it's just the games I'm watching, but it seems like a fair amount of the calls getting challenged are getting overturned and rightfully so. The actual review process most of the time doesn't seem to labor on; it's the awkward downtime between the actual play and the manager finally challenging it that seems to eat up more seconds.

Isn't Joey Bats kind of known for being a whiner?
   2. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:33 AM (#4744975)
I think the call was wrong, but the "agenda" of these calls is that - I think - the bar for overturning a call is quite high.

Am I, say, 80% sure the catcher missed the tag? Yes.

Would I bet a mortgage payment that the catcher missed the tag? No, I guess not.

I think the replay officials have been told that, unless you are 100% certain, don't overturn the call. That's a lot stronger than "reasonable doubt", and a lot stronger than "preponderance of the evidence".
   3. JE (Jason) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:44 AM (#4744979)
Would I bet a mortgage payment that the catcher missed the tag? No, I guess not.

I would. Heck, I would bet the house there was no tag. Of course, it would be your house, not mine.
   4. Drexl Spivey Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:50 AM (#4744981)


   5. Drexl Spivey Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:01 AM (#4744983)
I think they should just ban it, they should just get rid of it


I agree. MLB has replaced the excitement of "safe!" and "out!" calls with managers talking to umps while replays are being viewed.

It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.
   6. Ulysses S. Fairsmith Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:03 AM (#4744984)
Why would they review a play where Melky Cabrera was called out? Has everyone forgotten that he was once suspended for PED use?
   7. JE (Jason) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:19 AM (#4744988)
Has everyone forgotten that he was once suspended for PED use?

So you're saying John Lackey is secretly in charge of replay?
   8. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:53 AM (#4745001)
So you're saying John Lackey is secretly in charge of replay?


That's just a ridiculous assertion. He's an active player, far too busy for such a thing.

Ryan Dempster did make a sudden decision to walk away from the game back in February.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:09 AM (#4745007)
I agree. MLB has replaced the excitement of "safe!" and "out!" calls with managers talking to umps while replays are being viewed.

It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.


Ding, Ding, Ding!

Winner.
   10. Dale Sams Posted: July 07, 2014 at 10:48 AM (#4745117)
Then there was the fan interference call in the Brewers game. Should have taken 10 seconds instead of 3-4 minutes.
   11. Canker Soriano Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4745139)
It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.

Meh. I can afford 5 minutes a game to see them get more calls right. Have another beer, enjoy the sunshine, look at the pretty girls. (I'd like to see them push the managers to pull the trigger faster, but if that doesn't happen life will go on.)

And it may be a zero sum game, but tell that to the 1985 Cardinals or the 2009 Twins (or the 1996 Orioles, etc.). I doubt they would have felt better knowing that the blown calls in the postseason were probably balanced out by an ump missing the tag on a stolen base back in April.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4745147)
And it may be a zero sum game, but tell that to the 1985 Cardinals or the 2009 Twins (or the 1996 Orioles, etc.). I doubt they would have felt better knowing that the blown calls in the postseason were probably balanced out by an ump missing the tag on a stolen base back in April.

But, it's not at all clear to me that MLB as a whole would be better off without those blown calls to talk about, decades later.

I mean, absent a blown call, no one remembers who Armando Galarraga was.
   13. villageidiom Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:29 AM (#4745153)
I mean, absent a blown call, no one remembers who Armando Galarraga was.
Had the call not been blown, lots of people would remember who Armando Galarraga is.

Absent a blown call, no one remembers who Jim Joyce is.
   14. Canker Soriano Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4745163)
Absent a blown call, no one remembers who Jim Joyce is.

Or Don Denkinger.

As for your other point - just because blown calls give us something to talk about, that doesn't make them a good thing. The alternate universe without those missed calls might give us a 1996 championship in Baltimore (or maybe back to back wins in Atlanta), or an improbable run by the Twins in 2009 on the back of Joe Mauer. Memorable moments can come from anywhere.
   15. CrosbyBird Posted: July 07, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4745165)
Meh. I can afford 5 minutes a game to see them get more calls right. Have another beer, enjoy the sunshine, look at the pretty girls. (I'd like to see them push the managers to pull the trigger faster, but if that doesn't happen life will go on.)

I'm the same way. Get the calls as right as possible without outrageously slowing down the game. I'd also put the managers on a tighter clock.

But if it were really up to me, every reviewable call would be reviewed automatically, and I'd take manager choice out of the whole affair. Then again, if sufficient technology existed, I'd replace the officials with computers.
   16. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: July 07, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4745185)
Had the call not been blown, lots of people would remember who Armando Galarraga is.


Armando Galarraga will be far better remembered as a result of what happened than he would have been had the call been made correctly. After all, the second-most famous perfect game in history is also one that wasn't - Haddix's.

There have been six perfect games in the last five years. I'm certain that more fans can name Armando's near miss than most of the other six (the first of them, Buehrle's, is the possible exception due to the Dewayne Wise play).

I'd bet a lot, if not most, Primates would struggle to remember all six.

   17. Hank G. Posted: July 07, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4745194)
It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.


I think it’s worth it because:

1. It’s better to get more calls right.
2. The number of times the manager runs out there screaming and kicking dirt for several minutes until he’s thrown out is way down. This alone makes it worth it in my book.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4745287)
2. The number of times the manager runs out there screaming and kicking dirt for several minutes until he’s thrown out is way down. This alone makes it worth it in my book.

That, I actually enjoy.
   19. Bob T Posted: July 07, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4745305)
I saw a list last week of umpires and the number of challenges against them. I believe Jim Joyce had the most games umpired with no challenges through the end of June. However, he's only worked 18 games.

Has he been injured or is he just vacationing earlier?
   20. Walt Davis Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:33 PM (#4745493)
It seems Jim Joyce is considered the best ump out there. That call may have cost him the HoF.

And this from Wiki:

On August 20, 2012, Joyce saved the life of an Arizona Diamondbacks employee by administering CPR to the woman who was in cardiac arrest at Chase Field.

Never mind, I see he's already in the Irish American Baseball HoF.
   21. RJ in TO Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4745508)
2. The number of times the manager runs out there screaming and kicking dirt for several minutes until he’s thrown out is way down. This alone makes it worth it in my book.


Watching a guy go out there and throw a giant pants-shitting fit is a lot more entertaining than watching a guy casually wander out there and make small talk until someone in the dugout lets him know whether or not he should ask for a challenge. Getting the call correct is important, but I watch baseball for entertainment, and the replay challenge system isn't entertaining.

Ideally, they could make it so that to activate the challenge, a manager has to go at least half-Weaver.
   22. Eddo Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4745511)
Honestly, I don't get the time/entertainment factor being more important than the correct calls. We certainly could come up with quicker and/or more entertaining ways to make out/safe/ball/strike calls, but we don't, because we value accuracy.
   23. Canker Soriano Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4745512)
Ideally, they could make it so that to activate the challenge, a manager has to go at least half-Weaver.

I like this. I'm picturing one of those Applause-o-Meters up on the Jumbotron, and as the manager gets more riled up the arm moves closer and closer to the edge, and then "CHALLENGE!" goes off in blinking lights as the crowd goes crazy.

It's like that kooky home run thing they have in Miami.
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4745517)
Honestly, I don't get the time/entertainment factor being more important than the correct calls. We certainly could come up with quicker and/or more entertaining ways to make out/safe/ball/strike calls, but we don't, because we value accuracy.

You value accuracy. I see no difference between calls being 99% right and 99.5% right. Just speed up the damn games.
   25. RJ in TO Posted: July 07, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4745527)
Honestly, I don't get the time/entertainment factor being more important than the correct calls. We certainly could come up with quicker and/or more entertaining ways to make out/safe/ball/strike calls, but we don't, because we value accuracy.


We value accuracy to a degree, and we value entertainment to a degree. At the limits, which is largely where replay is being used, I will take entertainment over accuracy. You may disagree, and that's a completely reasonable position to have, that just happens to disagree with my preferences.
   26. Eddo Posted: July 07, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4745549)
We value accuracy to a degree, and we value entertainment to a degree. At the limits, which is largely where replay is being used, I will take entertainment over accuracy. You may disagree, and that's a completely reasonable position to have, that just happens to disagree with my preferences.

Understood, I don't disagree.

With regards to the time issue, shaving the 2-3 minutes on average that reviews cause across the board doesn't seem significant; it's all the pitching changes, stalling tactics, etc., that have led to the current marathon games.
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: July 07, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4745557)
With regards to the time issue, shaving the 2-3 minutes on average that reviews cause across the board doesn't seem significant; it's all the pitching changes, stalling tactics, etc., that have led to the current marathon games.


It's not really the pitching changes. They don't really add much to the game, it's absolutely the stalling tactics. You could reduce time from each game simply by requiring that players cannot step out of the batters box during an at bat without actually calling time out, and tell the umps to rarely give time outs(something in the eye, sure, but if the guy is fiddling with his glove, the pitcher is perfectly within his right, if not requirement, to throw the ball.) and enforce the pitch time limit. That would shave 5 seconds per pitch on average, with around 200- 300 pitches in a game, you are looking at a time savings of 20+ minutes alone.


   28. filihok Posted: July 07, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4745564)
There's nothing, IMO, entertaining about a blown call, managers acting like 5th graders, or waiting for the umps to saunter over to a monitor and review a close play.


Scrap the stupid challenge system, hire an ump to sit in a booth and watch the calls and notify the other umps if a call was obviously incorrect - if the call is close enough that it can't be discerned as wrong before the next pitch, then it stands.
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: July 07, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4745569)
There's nothing, IMO, entertaining about a blown call, managers acting like 5th graders, or waiting for the umps to saunter over to a monitor and review a close play.


The umps don't saunter over to a monitor, they saunter over to a phone. There is no on field replay review...No self respecting sport would be stupid enough to do that in an official capacity.

I agree with the rest for the most part, challenge system is kooky way to 'get the call right'. Again, something that no self respecting sport should be doing.
   30. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 07, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4745573)
There's nothing, IMO...managers acting like 5th graders


You may feel that way but if you are ever at a game when a manager is truly losing it with an ump you'll find the majority of people disagree.

I'm a huge hockey fan and I don't really like the fighting in the game. I would be wrong if I said it wasn't something that fans enjoyed for the most part though. The arguments are a hell of a lot more fun than the replays.
   31. filihok Posted: July 07, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4745594)
The umps don't saunter over to a monitor, they saunter over to a phone.

You can see how enthralled I am with, and how much attention I pay to, the current system.




You may feel that way but if you are ever at a game when a manager is truly losing it with an ump you'll find the majority of people disagree.

I'm aware. And I disagree.

The arguments are a hell of a lot more fun than the replays.

I disagree. Both are terrible.
   32. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 07, 2014 at 06:44 PM (#4745612)
Scrap the stupid challenge system, hire an ump to sit in a booth and watch the calls and notify the other umps if a call was obviously incorrect - if the call is close enough that it can't be discerned as wrong before the next pitch, then it stands.

Which would lead to stalling tactics on any close play so the replay official can get a good long look.
   33. Willie Mayspedester Posted: July 07, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4745618)
I'd bet a lot, if not most, Primates would struggle to remember all six.


Tim Lincecum threw all six against the Padres right?
   34. PreservedFish Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:08 PM (#4745625)
Which would lead to stalling tactics on any close play so the replay official can get a good long look.


We already have stalling tactics. But more importantly, you're missing the point, which is that the 5th umpire only determines that he will take a good long look if the call is immediately shown to be incorrect. If it's a close call that will require multiple angles and slo-mo, the call stands.
   35. valuearbitrageur Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:42 PM (#4745644)
It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.


It would be okay if they just went straight to commercial, came back 2 minutes later, resumed game and reduced remaining commercials by 2 mins to compensate.

I'm not watching this year but my guess is the greedy MLB said "aha, now we can add 2 MORE minutes of commercials".
   36. JJ1986 Posted: July 07, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4745653)
Phil Humber threw one. Roy Halladay. Dallas Braden. Throwing a perfect game does not seem to increase your odds of lasting long in MLB.

I don't remember at all who the other two were.
   37. Bruce Chen's Huge Panamanian Robot Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4745658)
When is Jose Bautista not whining about something?
   38. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4745666)
which is that the 5th umpire only determines that he will take a good long look if the call is immediately shown to be incorrect. If it's a close call that will require multiple angles and slo-mo, the call stands.

So instead of fixing missed calls you want to only fix calls that can be 'immediately shown' to be missed? And some guy, accountable to no one, is off in a corner deciding which is which? You want the league to have to answer for stuff after games by saying 'yeah, that call was wrong, but the guy decided it was a tough one so it was play on".

I'm going with no.
   39. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4745668)
King Felix. I know that one because I have a signed Hernandez ball in my office and he wrote "Perfect Game 8-15-12" on there (even though, AFAIK, it is not a ball from that game).

I had to look up the 6th.
   40. Canker Soriano Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:59 PM (#4745676)
Matt Cain.

Is that everyone? Buehrle, Cain, Humber, Halladay, Braden, and Hernandez.

Humber's the only one that I had forgotten.
   41. Moeball Posted: July 07, 2014 at 08:59 PM (#4745677)
I've gone to a bunch of Padres games this year. There have been several challenges by managers (both home and visiting) and lots of them have successfully overturned calls by umps.

The thing that surprises me is how many of the plays were not close calls to start with. I would expect close "bang-bang" plays and the like to be the ones getting challenged but that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead we're getting horribly bad calls that weren't even close and never ever should have been made in the first place and I cannot fathom how the umps screwed them up so badly. There isn't much delay as the umps quickly realize how badly they screwed up the call.

Question - does anyone have any data yet on emerging patterns? For example, are home managers getting more successful challenges than visiting managers or does it matter?
   42. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:06 PM (#4745682)
Is that everyone? Buehrle, Cain, Humber, Halladay, Braden, and Hernandez.


That's the half-dozen perfectos. For the record, I'm sure I would have blanked on Cain, and I think I would have gotten King, but I can't say for certain.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:26 PM (#4745692)
The thing that surprises me is how many of the plays were not close calls to start with. I would expect close "bang-bang" plays and the like to be the ones getting challenged but that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead we're getting horribly bad calls that weren't even close and never ever should have been made in the first place and I cannot fathom how the umps screwed them up so badly. There isn't much delay as the umps quickly realize how badly they screwed up the call.


Which is the first type of play that you would hope a replay system would address. I would have preferred a slow roll out, where the point was to try and reduce obvious mistakes first and then improve the system to get the tougher calls, while accepting that you'll never get 100% of the calls right.
   44. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 07, 2014 at 09:49 PM (#4745707)
I knew there was a guy who got all whiny about ARod crossing over his mound and had thrown a perfect game (on Mother's Day, I think), but I couldn't remember his name (until I saw it was Braden).
Halladay (one of my faves) and Buehrle (for the catch and then going another 5+ innings of perfect in the next game) I remembered.
King Felix I remembered because I have him on my fantasy team for the past 10 years.
Humber I remembered because I read an article about it later, and how when I looked him up he might seemed to be the worst pitcher in history to throw a perfect game (both for his career, and the season he did it).
I completely blanked on Cain.

Scrap the stupid challenge system, hire an ump to sit in a booth and watch the calls and notify the other umps if a call was obviously incorrect - if the call is close enough that it can't be discerned as wrong before the next pitch, then it stands.


I was at a Jays game a couple weeks ago (June 26th, against the White Sox), where they went to the replay (or communication with New York only) a full batter and a pitch after the play happened.
An Abreu ground ball to Reyes, and his throw was over Encarnacion's head. The ball bounced about 5 feet from the stands, and a fan reached over and trapped it against the wall.
I remember turning to my dad and both of us lamenting the stupidity of the fan because he just gave the runner an extra base.
Except, the Jay backing up the play got to the ball within about a second, and took it from the fan (because it was trapped against the wall still) and threw it back to the infield. The umps did nothing. The base runner stayed on first. The White Sox didn't say/do anything. Huh.

Another out later (Dunn strikeout), and then another pitch into the NEXT batter, out comes Ventura and he starts talking to the ump. He turns and points towards the place where the fan trapped the ball. My dad and I figure out what's going on, but I can't believe it's happening. Is he really asking for the base runner to be advanced on the fan interference, this late after the play? Well, the umpires walk back to the headphones, and after more than 5 minutes (during which no announcement has been made why there is a delay), the umpires come back onto the field and nothing happens.

There was no mention of it in the game report anywhere I found, and only one comment on a fan site even mentioned the interference.

It was very weird.
   45. Hank G. Posted: July 07, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4745716)
Watching a guy go out there and throw a giant pants-shitting fit is a lot more entertaining than watching a guy casually wander out there and make small talk until someone in the dugout lets him know whether or not he should ask for a challenge.


I find that to be the same level of entertaining as watching a two year old throw a tantrum in public.
   46. PreservedFish Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:09 AM (#4745832)
So instead of fixing missed calls you want to only fix calls that can be 'immediately shown' to be missed? And some guy, accountable to no one, is off in a corner deciding which is which? You want the league to have to answer for stuff after games by saying 'yeah, that call was wrong, but the guy decided it was a tough one so it was play on".

I'm going with no.


Yes, that's exactly what I want.
   47. Baldrick Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:29 AM (#4745836)
So instead of fixing missed calls you want to only fix calls that can be 'immediately shown' to be missed? And some guy, accountable to no one, is off in a corner deciding which is which? You want the league to have to answer for stuff after games by saying 'yeah, that call was wrong, but the guy decided it was a tough one so it was play on".

I'm going with no.

Eliminate the bizarrely snarky tone of voice, and yes, that sounds fine to me.
   48. Baldrick Posted: July 08, 2014 at 01:39 AM (#4745840)
I knew there was a guy who got all whiny about ARod crossing over his mound and had thrown a perfect game (on Mother's Day, I think), but I couldn't remember his name (until I saw it was Braden).
Halladay (one of my faves) and Buehrle (for the catch and then going another 5+ innings of perfect in the next game) I remembered.
King Felix I remembered because I have him on my fantasy team for the past 10 years.
Humber I remembered because I read an article about it later, and how when I looked him up he might seemed to be the worst pitcher in history to throw a perfect game (both for his career, and the season he did it).
I completely blanked on Cain.

It took me a few seconds to recall Humber - I knew it was against the Mariners but couldn't recall the name of the guy. But the others were instantaneous recall. It helps that I was at the Matt Cain perfect game and so will never forget it in a million years. He had 14 strikeouts in that game, tying Koufax for the most in a perfect game.

I watched the Felix one from about the third inning on. And going back a little bit, I watched the Randy Johnson one from about the 5th inning. I made my girlfriend at the time stick around her job at the library for an extra hour because I wasn’t willing to leave while it was still happening.

I also remember a bunch of 26-out almost-perfect games. Brian Holman in 1990 or 1991. I watched that whole game. Stupid Ken Phelps. I watched a decent chunk of Darvish’s attempt last year, and listened to a bunch of Petit’s on the radio. Apparently Mussina almost had one in 2001, but I have no memory of that whatsoever.
   49. Lassus Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:23 AM (#4745878)
I was working at MLBAM for Buehlre's, and the crazy thing was his NEXT start, where he went 6 perfect innings before losing it. The floor was actively rooting against him, however, as it means everyone's workload doubles, and in the case of two perfectos in a row, it would have been an all-night affair.
   50. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 08, 2014 at 06:50 PM (#4746575)
Apparently Mussina almost had one in 2001, but I have no memory of that whatsoever.


Stupid Carl Everett had a PH single. I hope a dinosaur eats him.
   51. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4746618)

Mussina was famous for that. He also lost a perfect game with one out in the ninth in 1997 (Sandy Alomar Jr. broke it up with a single) and with two outs in the eighth in 1998 (Frank Catalanotto broke it up with a double).
   52. Sunday silence Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:04 PM (#4746620)

It's a zero sum game. In the long run no team will benefit from replay, but every fan will lose out because of the increased replay time commitment.

I dont think you know the meaning of that term.
   53. Sunday silence Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4746621)
So instead of fixing missed calls you want to only fix calls that can be 'immediately shown' to be missed? And some guy, accountable to no one, is off in a corner deciding which is which? You want the league to have to answer for stuff after games by saying 'yeah, that call was wrong, but the guy decided it was a tough one so it was play on".

I'm going with no.


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