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Tuesday, April 22, 2014

Josh Lueke Is A Rapist, You Say? Keep Saying It.

But during that Saturday night game, DRaysBay.com editor Erik Hahmann suggested that enough was enough. “It gets brought up every game by some ####### on twitter,” he tweeted. What ensued was a discussion, largely made up of male writers and fans, about the etiquette of reminding people that Lueke raped a woman.

Lars6788 Posted: April 22, 2014 at 09:31 PM | 302 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brett myers, josh lueke, rape, rays, when enough is enough

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   101. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4692071)
There's a reason that criminal trials are listed in the records as The State vs. [ACCUSED's NAME HERE]: Criminal transgressions represent a wrong done to society as a whole, in that they are corrosive to the public good.


Actually, that is not the reason. It is an after-the-fact rationalization, a talking point for Prosecutors, and a philosophical state of mind.

The reason is that it was originally "The King (or Queen) vs. X", as it still is in some countries, but we don't have Kings and Queens, so the State takes the place. And it was "The King (or Queen) vs. X" because (a) the crime was against the King's peace and (b) the King was the only one going to be allowed to punish crime, because that requires the imposition of force and violence, and the Crown needs to have a monopoly on the imposition of force and violence if it is to maintain control and have an effective operation of collecting taxes and running the country.
   102. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4692075)
I'm fine with Leuke playing major league baseball. As David points out he has a right to earn a living. At the same time I'm sure as hell going to boo the living crap out of him whenever he comes into a game. The idea put forth at DRays Bay that its somehow unfair is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.
   103. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4692077)
I couldn't care less about someone abusing an animal,


said the incipient serial killer.
   104. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4692083)
Well, you are a piece of ####, then.


Nothing we didn't already know.
   105. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4692084)
The reason is that it was originally "The King (or Queen) vs. X", as it still is in some countries, but we don't have Kings and Queens, so the State takes the place. And it was "The King (or Queen) vs. X" because (a) the crime was against the King's peace and (b) the King was the only one going to be allowed to punish crime, because that requires the imposition of force and violence, and the Crown needs to have a monopoly on the imposition of force and violence if it is to maintain control and have an effective operation of collecting taxes and running the country.

Well, that and committing a crime really hurts the Queen's feelings. Quite a few times the only thing stopping me from stealing my neighbour's car is knowing that it would disappoint the Queen.
   106. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4692089)
I'm fine with Leuke playing major league baseball. As David points out he has a right to earn a living. At the same time I'm sure as hell going to boo the living crap out of him whenever he comes into a game.
Concur. It's not like the guy stole food because he was hungry. He didn't take property that could be returned or redeemed. If Leuke wishes to pursue a career that puts him in the public eye... well, better players have been booed for a lot less.
   107. valuearbitrageur Posted: April 23, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4692092)
"I understand that my actions hurt you and made you feel violated and I'm sorry for that," Lueke read.


You can't forgive someone who refuses to apologize for what they actually did. This BS apology that Josh gave in court just to avoid a prison sentence, along with his later public statements that it was just a freak accident, are appalling. He has shown repeatedly he deserves no forgiveness, no compassion, and that this "freak accident" should follow him as long as he is in baseball.

And I have been an Evan Tanner apologist who has said I will judge him when all the evidence is in. In the case of Josh Lueke the evidence is in, if he doesn't care to dispute it, neither do I.
   108. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4692093)
But each of those are situations where the prior offense is directly related to the job. This isn't


Actually, it is. He is an entertainer. That is what sports is: Public entertainment. An entertainer whose prior actions offend a large portion of the populace whose discretionary spending you are trying to siphon off, is or can be a detriment to your business model. You want good publicity and people who will shell out money to you; his presence may not be helping that, depending on your clientele. Plenty of other players have been jettisoned for similar reasons of "who needs the hassle?"
   109. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4692095)
Anyone who rids the world of some dogs can't be all bad.


Nice to see that the aliens that kidnapped you have returned you to us. It was confusing the past few days, what with your replacement behaving like a decent human being and all.
   110. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4692097)
Anyone who rids the world of some dogs can't be all bad.


Starting with you, bitch.
   111. Blastin Posted: April 23, 2014 at 01:04 PM (#4692100)
You can't forgive someone who refuses to apologize for what they actually did. This BS apology that Josh gave in court just to avoid a prison sentence, along with his later public statements that it was just a freak accident, are appalling. He has shown repeatedly he deserves no forgiveness, no compassion, and that this "freak accident" should follow him as long as he is in baseball.


Yeah, the "freak accident" thing is absolutely absurd. Like he tripped, fell, and landed above her with his hand somehow on his junk. And then all the other stuff after it.
   112. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 02:39 PM (#4692196)
Quite a few times the only thing stopping me from stealing my neighbour's car is knowing that it would disappoint the Queen.


She'd sigh. And then she'd beat the crap out of you, because she has a monopoly on the imposition of force and violence.
   113. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4692198)
If we were to imagine that the majority of victims of murder were males, the majority of murderers were women, and that murders were underreported because the attitudes of females were that murder was no big deal and that usually murder victims weren't really murdered...yeah, it would be a bit unseemly for a woman to tell a man to shut up about complaining about a murderer's prominence in the public eye.


As far as I'm concerned, if you're a rape victim or are close to a rape victim then you have a right to tell people to shut the #### up. If you're a random guy or women who has never been raped before you're opinion carries no special weight. Not all women are the same and not all men are the same. A dude in my college just got raped in the cemetary by two guys and a girl, I guess that doesn't count though.
   114. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4692208)
But, his victim may never get over it. I have no problem with someone who committed a vile crime like this bearing the stigma his whole life. His victim is almost certainly still dealing with this trauma.


A big reason why being raped is considered a stigma is that people like you assume that the victims are irrevocably damaged and tainted by the experience. Let's do some logic real quick here: this women does not remember being raped, doesn't appear to have any negative health effects, so the only ill feelings she is going to have going forward are going to come from people saying "you were raped and it was a horrible experience and you will never be the same". "Rape culture" (I mean the idea that we live in a rape culture) cuts both ways. It's as patronizing to the women involved as it is illuminating.
   115. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4692227)
Let's do some logic real quick here: this women does not remember being raped, doesn't appear to have any negative health effects, so the only ill feelings she is going to have going forward are going to come from people saying "you were raped and it was a horrible experience and you will never be the same".


Wait a sec. Hold on. Are you *honestly* asserting that knowing you were violated sexually while you were unable to remember it is only traumatic because other people say it is? That if, "to do some logic real quick here," no one said a word about it, the victim would be just fine and have no ill feelings?

Seriously?

No, really, seriously??
   116. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4692232)
A big reason why being raped is considered a stigma is that people like you assume that the victims are irrevocably damaged and tainted by the experience. Let's do some logic real quick here: this women does not remember being raped, doesn't appear to have any negative health effects, so the only ill feelings she is going to have going forward are going to come from people saying "you were raped and it was a horrible experience and you will never be the same". "Rape culture" (I mean the idea that we live in a rape culture) cuts both ways. It's as patronizing to the women involved as it is illuminating.


Maybe Logic is not a humanistic field?
   117. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4692233)
A big reason why being raped is considered a stigma is that people like you assume that the victims are irrevocably damaged and tainted by the experience.


Strange, this idea of taking the word of women (and men) who have been raped and believing them about the on going psychological trauma after the fact. We should probably ignore them and trust your "real quick" logic instead, because reasons and stuff.
   118. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:02 PM (#4692234)
And it was "The King (or Queen) vs. X" because (a) the crime was against the King's peace and (b) the King was the only one going to be allowed to punish crime


We don't live in a monarchy, though. We live in a republic. The word "republic" comes from the Latin res publica, showing that the government's authority (including the authority to impose laws and punish) comes from the people.
   119. Morty Causa Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4692239)
The reason is that it was originally "The King (or Queen) vs. X", as it still is in some countries, but we don't have Kings and Queens, so the State takes the place.

Does Nieporent know about this?

   120. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4692245)
She'd sigh. And then she'd beat the crap out of you, because she has a monopoly on the imposition of force and violence.

The history of the attempt to establish that monopoly is kind of interesting (of course I may be a bit biased here). For a long time the crown faced the problem of people only paying lip service to the notion that the King had a monopoly on force and violence for the punishment of crimes. This is the primary tension behind various King's and Queen's denouncing the duel, and generations of nobles mostly ignoring them. Of course, for British monarchs it was a mix of self-interest ("I want the power!") and pragmatism ("Jesus, France is an absolute disaster with all these guys killing each other, let's not do that"). But it wasn't until the 1630s that the Court of Chivalry started dealing with matters of honour as an alternative to the duel. And even then within some circles it was still considered a weenie move to take the matter to court rather than the duelling pitch, or wherever it is one goes to stab a friend.

In the first incarnation of the court, 1633-1640, we actually have quite a few of the trial manuscripts digitized and online. Some of them make for pretty fun reading. The punishments would usually involve the guilty party standing before the community (usually at the local church) and announcing how they were wrong. There is one appeal case where the guilty party fulfilled the punishment instructions precisely, stood before everyone, said all the words he was supposed to. But he did it while wearing a hat (a big sign of disrespect) and apparently said all the words so sarcastically that its effect was exactly the reverse of the intention. He came away with his pride intact, and the party that won the suit, (and the entire process itself) came off as ridiculous. It's somehow nice to know that sarcasm has a long and effective history in our culture.
   121. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4692253)
The punishments would usually involve the guilty party standing before the community (usually at the local church) and announcing how they were wrong.


...at which point the aggrieved party would have a clear shot at him...
   122. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4692261)
...at which point the aggrieved party would have a clear shot at him...

Though with 17th century pistols you probably have a greater chance of shooting the bishop. Which is a whole other medieval legal headache.

I once attended a lecture about finding what were possibly inside jokes in the correspondence between 12th century bishops looking for legal advice on the murder of clergy. You wouldn't think it would be possible, but it was actually more interesting than you would think!
   123. Nasty Nate Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4692276)

A big reason why being raped is considered a stigma is that people like you assume that the victims are irrevocably damaged and tainted by the experience.


It's a tricky business to acknowledge the damage of rape without adding to the damage by stigmatizing the victim.
   124. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4692294)
“It gets brought up every game by some ####### on twitter,” he tweeted.


Even if I knew nothing else about this guy, I can't forgive anyone arrogant enough yet ignorant enough to not understand social media flaming.
   125. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4692296)
Wait a sec. Hold on. Are you *honestly* asserting that knowing you were violated sexually while you were unable to remember it is only traumatic because other people say it is?


I'm bringing chloroform and a camera to the softball game!
   126. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4692319)
shooting the bishop


We used to call it "flogging the bishop," but times change, I know.
   127. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4692329)
You can only shoot the bishop once.
   128. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4692345)
I once attended a lecture about finding what were possibly inside jokes in the correspondence between 12th century bishops looking for legal advice on the murder of clergy.


And yet somehow they say humanities PhDs obsess over arcane minutiae that's relevant only to each other.
   129. Srul Itza Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4692359)
We don't live in a monarchy, though. We live in a republic. The word "republic" comes from the Latin res publica, showing that the government's authority (including the authority to impose laws and punish) comes from the people.


Which has pretty little to do with the history of causes and forms underlying what became the criminal justice system, although it is relevant to the myths that have sprung up about it, up to and including calling it a criminal "justice" system and empty platitudes about "the search for the truth".
   130. base ball chick Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4692362)
females are stigmatized by rape because they are blamed/feel guilty because it happened in the first place - you know - if that SLUTTTTTT hadn't been drinkinn at the bar and had been home in the convent where she belonged, then there wouldn't be nothing to worry about

and females are traumatized by rape whether or not they were sober or drunk - the length and amount of trauma depends on the individual woman involved.

my gf cleans hotel rooms and one day one of the single female guests came into her room and found her underpants piled on top of the bed with ejaculate on them. apparently she screamed and screamed, was beyond hysterical, called cops etc. nothing had been stolen and she hadn't been touched so the cops apparently were like, whatevs.

but obviously, that woman was traumatized and she hadn't even been touched. i understand. i woulda felt the same way.

- as for males getting raped, me not being male can't speak about what a male goes through or if he feels un-masculine or however he feels so i wouldn't be rude enough to tell other males how that is, seeing as how i don't do real too good at thinking like a male (outside of wanting dinner)

lueke is a piece of shtt
too bad he didn't do steroids instead so he would be exposed as the REAL monster he is. well, not that anyone would care real too particular much, him not hitting no homahs, which is all any of the roid screamers care about anyhow.

i have no idea whether or not he does now or ever will repent what he did, or will just justify it to his self saying - she had it coming
but he certainly hardly did time and is not the registered sex offender he SHOULD be

as for michael vick
he was never prosecuted for all the torturing he did of Dogz outside the fights - strangling them, allowing the to drown slowly = i can't even type no mo. he's just beyond evil
the Dogfighters get off on the suffering and pain of living creatures who have been bred for thousands of years to be companions to human beings. they are Evil to the bone
people whwo run corporate farming of animals are a step above the vicks because they don't get enjoyment from seeing the animals misery/suffering before death and don't take the death of the animals for food to be some sort of personal victory over the animal

as for hunters
the kind who shoot and eat what they shoot - i got no problem with them
the kind who go on trophy hunts to kill elephants or some other "game" with a long range rifel with umpty backups with machine guns and right down there with michael vick. and i hope they rot in eternal hellfire and damnation. forgiveness might could come from God but it fer sher ain't comin from me
   131. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:36 PM (#4692380)
Not going to defend the guy, but it appears there was a rather quick plea bargain that gave him time-served, all of 42 days. Maybe not as clear cut a case as the headline suggests.

It's really hard to prove rape in court.

As a country, we have chosen to make it fairly difficult to prove any criminal offense. Yet I don't see that as a reason to automatically accept out-of-court statements that were never tested in court or by cross-examination. That Lueke only got 42 days suggests that this case may have been weaker than many here are suggesting. Maybe he's actually guilty as hell, but we don't know that, all we know is that he pled no contest to a lesser charge than rape.
   132. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4692404)
Wait a sec. Hold on. Are you *honestly* asserting that knowing you were violated sexually while you were unable to remember it is only traumatic because other people say it is? That if, "to do some logic real quick here," no one said a word about it, the victim would be just fine and have no ill feelings?


Sorry that was hyperbolic. Her feelings about the rape are certainly worse because society deems rape as such a terrible, life damaging thing, can we agree on that?
   133. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4692412)
It's a tricky business to acknowledge the damage of rape without adding to the damage by stigmatizing the victim.


Agreed. I don't think society should treat rape victims any differently then they do other people who have PTSD. You can get PTSD from a lot of places - rape, drug use, assault, war, etc. - but generally people magnify the effects when it supports their cause. And it probably does help their cause, but it also makes the victims feel worse.

Rape already carries a 10-15 year penalty, right? There's not much more society can do to dissuade rape. What people talking about "rape culture" seem to want is the lower the bar of reasonable doubt in rape cases. Which is fine I guess, but that's going to have a lot of shitty consequences.
   134. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4692421)
Sorry that was hyperbolic. Her feelings about the rape are certainly worse because society deems rape as such a terrible, life damaging thing, can we agree on that?
Is rape a terrible, life damaging thing because society deems it so, or because it IS so? I need clarification.
   135. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4692422)
Sorry that was hyperbolic. Her feelings about the rape are certainly worse because society deems rape as such a terrible, life damaging thing, can we agree on that?


Sorta? I would phrase it more as "Rape is inherently a terrible, life damaging thing. Society acknowledges that in some helpful ways and in other ways that under some circumstances likely make things worse for the victims/survivors."
   136. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4692425)
Rape already carries a 10-15 year penalty, right?


More like 42 days, evidently.

Oh, & mean people will say bad things about you on Twitter. The horror.
   137. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4692432)
Rape is inherently a terrible, life damaging thing.


This is stupid. Obviously rape is terrible but it's not inherently a life damaging thing. Some people are able to get over rape fairly easily - are we going to tell them "no, sorry you're still damaged goods".
   138. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:06 PM (#4692437)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?
   139. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4692438)
This is stupid. Obviously rape is terrible but it's not inherently a life damaging thing. Some people are able to get over rape fairly easily - are we going to tell them "no, sorry you're still damaged goods".


Some people have walked away from plane crashes without major injury. Therefore plane crashes are not inherently life-damaging things. Got it.
   140. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4692441)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them,


First Nieporent, now this? I was honestly unaware that doctrinaire libertarianism also mandated disdain for animals.
   141. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4692444)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating them as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?


You're so compassionate.
   142. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4692446)
And when Ray says "if WE blow up the planet", he's talking to his AI friends.
   143. Nasty Nate Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4692448)

Some people have walked away from plane crashes without major injury. Therefore plane crashes are not inherently life-damaging things. Got it.


Um, yes.
   144. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4692449)
This is stupid. Obviously rape is terrible but it's not inherently a life damaging thing.


Do you have an equally skeptical view as to the existence of post traumatic stress disorder in military veterans?
   145. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4692450)
I hold my dogs and cats in higher importance than any AI being I may employ for this or that.
   146. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4692451)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

Yes.

the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them

people have done that since we've had roofs.

holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?


I think very very few people actually do this.
   147. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4692455)
If we blew up the planet & started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people without apparent understanding of basic human emotions are allowed to exist outside of institutions?
   148. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4692456)
#143 - Um, yes, I suppose, if you're being pedantic and invoking a hypertechnical reading of the term "inherently." But for most of us, the existence of some very small number of outliers does not invalidate a colloquial general statement borne out by virtually all the data.
   149. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4692459)
I once attended a lecture about finding what were possibly inside jokes in the correspondence between 12th century bishops looking for legal advice on the murder of clergy. You wouldn't think it would be possible, but it was actually more interesting than you would think!

Maybe in Canada. In winter.
   150. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4692464)
This is a sequence that gets repeated over and over again:

1. Dog jumps into the water, looks like he is having trouble swimming.
2. Kid goes in to save dog.
3. Kid gets swept away.
4. Dad goes in to save the kid.
5. Dad gets swept away.
6. Mother goes in after the dad.
7. Mother gets swept away.
8. Dog ends up swimming safely back to shore.
9. Sister watches in horror as her family is wiped out.

There are frequent stories of families being wiped out because one of them tried to save a dog... who ultimately lived anyway and probably wasn't even in danger in the first place.

People have their priorities completely out of whack.

The final blow to the gut: "Rescuers eventually retrieved Scott's body, and Howard Kuljian's body washed ashore. The dog got out of the water on his own."

Here's another one. With the punchline: "Quaid's wife and dog were not injured."
   151. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4692467)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

Maybe I'm wrong to take this as a genuine question, but for me, this is an interesting template with which to approach any historical investigation. Where does the modern "pet" come from? How did we get here? Like anything else I suspect the practice developed through a mixture of practical reasons, and people just becoming emotionally attached to the animals that they use/work with in their day to day lives. In the present day my cat doesn't really fulfil an economic function in my household, but the cultural notion of having a pet in the house has existed for centuries.

I suppose it's possible to imagine a world where men and women worked with animals all their lives, but developed no culture of emotional attachment to them - I'm no proponent of the inevitability in history. But it doesn't seem especially likely.
   152. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4692468)
Some people have walked away from plane crashes without major injury. Therefore plane crashes are not inherently life-damaging things. Got it.


Yeah plane crashes are not inherently life damaging events, why would you ever think that? Murder is inherently a life damaging event. That's about the thing I can think of

What's you're threshold for qualifying something as a life damaging event? 10% recovery rate? 15%? How much is the difference between rape and general assault?

Do you have an equally skeptical view as to the existence of post traumatic stress disorder in military veterans?


Where did I say I don't believe in post traumatic stress disorder? I actually used the word PTSD in a post above, I think rape survivors suffer from post traumatic stress. They can and do get over it, it takes time. Society deeming rape (and war) as "inherently life damaging events" does a disservice to the victims.
   153. Nasty Nate Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4692469)
#143 - Um, yes, I suppose, if you're being pedantic and invoking a hypertechnical reading of the term "inherently." But for most of us, the existence of some very small number of outliers does not invalidate a colloquial general statement borne out by virtually all the data.


Okay, I was being annoyingly pedantic. A manned plane crashing is inherently life-threatening and it is also not a very useful metaphor for sexual assault.
   154. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4692470)
People have their priorities completely out of whack.


Not if any of the drowned people were libertarians; then it's party time.
   155. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4692471)
I was honestly unaware that doctrinaire libertarianism also mandated disdain for animals.


I doubt it's a libertarian thing. At least it's not for me. When I said it before Lassus required a fainting couch.
   156. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4692473)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

Hasn't this been explained to you before? They're cute, they do funny things, and they (dogs, at least) offer you undying love and devotion in exchange for you feeding them and occasionally patting them on the head. I think your average dog or cat is a lot more loveable than your average person. At least when the cat swats at your face or responds to you calling its name by walking away and licking itself, you can forgive it because it doesn't know it's being an *******.

Some people have walked away from plane crashes without major injury. Therefore plane crashes are not inherently life-damaging things. Got it.

Correct.


   157. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4692475)
People have their priorities completely out of whack.

I'm not sure it's priorities per se. More like people horribly over-estimate the danger the dog is in, and horribly under-estimate the danger to themselves. I suspect many more people would dive in to save their 2 year old child than would dive in to save their dog. And I suspect hardly anyone would not dive in to save their child.
   158. Nasty Nate Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4692476)
Society deeming rape (and war) as "inherently life damaging events" does a disservice to the victims.


I think the vast majority of times in which society has done a disservice to rape victims has been by downplaying its damage, and not the opposite. But I don't know for sure.
   159. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4692480)
152 & 156, see 148. Lotta pedants in the Think Factory today, apparently.
   160. Greg K Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4692481)
I doubt it's a libertarian thing. At least it's not for me. When I said it before Lassus required a fainting couch.

I think there may be some weak correlation between the kind of logical mind libertarianism appeals to and the pragmatism that doesn't see the point in pets that provide no apparent function.

I always think of libertarianism like a crossword puzzle, it's a really appealing way of looking at the world because you can always check your work and confirm that you're right in any decision.

Apologies for the tangent.
   161. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4692484)
1. Dog jumps into the water, looks like he is having trouble swimming.
2. Kid goes in to save dog.
3. Kid gets swept away.
4. Dad goes in to save the kid.
5. Dad gets swept away.
6. Mother goes in after the dad.
7. Mother gets swept away.
8. Dog ends up swimming safely back to shore.
9. Sister watches in horror as her family is wiped out.


10. Sister avenges family's death by becoming New York Jets fan.
   162. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4692492)
11. Sister wonders where the hell Nomar was.
   163. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4692496)
I think there may be some weak correlation between the kind of logical mind libertarianism appeals to and the pragmatism that doesn't see the point in pets that provide no apparent function.


Libertarianism tends to appeal, in the aggregate, with people who have difficulty empathizing with others out of hand. The framework of the libertarian project provides them with a replacement system for the basic emotive reasoning that comes to the rest of us naturally. In that Libertarianism is, in many ways, a framework for replacing basic human empathy, it is not shocking that the type of mind drawn to that framework would also have difficulty with empathy for life *outside* of humanity.
   164. Eddo Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4692500)
I'm not sure it's priorities per se. More like people horribly over-estimate the danger the dog is in, and horribly under-estimate the danger to themselves. I suspect many more people would dive in to save their 2 year old child than would dive in to save their dog. And I suspect hardly anyone would not dive in to save their child.

My thoughts exactly. Ray's numbered list in post #150 is less an example of "priorities [being] completely out of whack" and more "people not realizing that dogs can naturally swim pretty well".
   165. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4692502)
A manned plane crashing is inherently life-threatening and it is also not a very useful metaphor for sexual assault.


I'm not using it as a metaphor for sexual assault in the slightest. I'm using it as an analogy to roll my eyes at the pedantic argument that because some nonzero number of outliers exist, a thing can't be described (colloquially) as "inherently" having some characteristic when it has that characteristic 99.999999999997% of the time.
   166. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4692508)
I'm not using it as a metaphor for sexual assault in the slightest. I'm using it as an analogy to roll my eyes at the pedantic argument that because some nonzero number of outliers exist, a thing can't be described (colloquially) as "inherently" having some characteristic when it has that characteristic 99.999999999997% of the time.


FWIW, I understood and agreed with what you were doing.
   167. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4692510)
I'm using it as an analogy to roll my eyes at the pedantic argument that because some nonzero number of outliers exist, a thing can't be described (colloquially) as "inherently" having some characteristic when it has that characteristic 99.999999999997% of the time.


Rape isn't even close to 99.999997% of the time so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
   168. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4692514)
I thought RDP quit the site? He can't even do that right. Figures.
   169. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4692515)
Ray's numbered list in post #150 is less an example of "priorities [being] completely out of whack" and more "people not realizing that dogs can naturally swim pretty well".


Depends on the dog.

(Source:I'm a former lifeguard and corgi owner)
   170. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4692518)
I thought RDP quit the site? He can't even do that right. Figures.
He quit. He was always quit.
   171. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4692520)
More like people horribly over-estimate the danger the dog is in,


Yes. Oddly, dog owners don't seem to understand that dogs can swim.

Or if the dog can't swim then, well, it's just a dog.

and horribly under-estimate the danger to themselves.


Or the parents brainwashed the kid into thinking the dog was so important that the kid didn't bother considering the risks to himself before he jumped in. (I mean "brainwashed" loosely, as in, the parents' priorities are out of whack, and so naturally the kid's are.)

And please. Most dog owners do treat dogs as equal members of the family.
   172. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4692521)
I'm not sure this is a hard and fast rule but I've never met anyone who had a pet when growing up who didn't love pets as an adult.
   173. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4692522)
Yet I don't see that as a reason to automatically accept out-of-court statements that were never tested in court or by cross-examination.


We aren't automatically accepting them. We're drawing on related pieces of information, like Lueke lying to the police about whether he had sex with the victim, Lueke entering a no-contest plea to a violent felony, and Lueke delivering an in-court apology (mealy-mouthed and self-serving though it was), to determine that he is, in all likelihood, a piece-of-#### rapist #######.
   174. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4692527)
Rape isn't even close to 99.999997% of the time so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.


So what percentage of rape victims/survivors would you say think "eh, no big deal?" Do you have data to back that up?
   175. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4692529)
Or if the dog can't swim then, well, it's just a dog.


When people say that you have no empathy, Ray, this is the kind of stuff they're talking about.
   176. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4692535)
When would I ever say "no big deal"?

Rape is rape, there's nothing inherent about rape that makes it anything else. My point is that if you're elevating the damage of rape in order to make it more of a hot button issue/less acceptable/more shunned in society then it's a double edge sword, you're also creating a larger stigma for the victims. If you're trying to dissuade rape, there should be better ways than magnifying its effects.
   177. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:46 PM (#4692536)
When people say that you have no empathy, Ray, this is the kind of stuff they're talking about.


So dogs _are_ as important as people?

If you agree that they're not, then I don't see the problem with what I wrote.
   178. vivaelpujols Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4692539)
If someone decides his dog is as important as his son, then that's the case for him. It may be asisine, but importance is in the eye of the beholder.

I agree that on a societal level dog abuse is not as bad as people abuse.
   179. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4692542)
I never saw him quit.
   180. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4692545)
Or if the dog can't swim then, well, it's just a dog.

And if a person drowning dies then, well, it's just a person. The world will keep on spinning and 99.9999997% of people on the earth will be unaffected.
   181. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4692547)
So dogs _are_ as important as people?


They're definitely more important than certain people here. I can say that pretty safely.

So are cats. And just about any other animal I can think of.
   182. base ball chick Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4692548)
138. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:06 PM (#4692437)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

- are there any human cultures on this planet who do not have pets?

dogs have been domesticated and specifically bread to live and work with human beings since known history

true that cats were worshipped in ancient egypt. not that i understand that real too particular much

- i can't speak for you ray, but most human beings are drawn to creatures who appear to love you without demanding anything in return. i can't imagine having to live without Dogz. i still miss the ones who have died and i am hoping that if, indeed there is a heaven and by some chance God lets me in, that my Dogz are all there too, because it really wouldn't be heaven without my Dogz.



   183. Nasty Nate Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4692550)

I'm not using it as a metaphor for sexual assault in the slightest. I'm using it as an analogy to roll my eyes at the pedantic argument that because some nonzero number of outliers exist, a thing can't be described (colloquially) as "inherently" having some characteristic when it has that characteristic 99.999999999997% of the time.


I meant analogy, not a metaphor - don't be pedantic! j/k

I thought the analogy was bad because vivaelpujols' reasoning (not mine) was not based on rape being super-damaging 99.99% (see #167).
   184. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4692553)
i can't speak for you ray, but most human beings


You're definitely not speaking for Ray.
   185. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4692554)
I meant analogy, not a metaphor - don't be pedantic! j/k


Well played - I didn't even think of that when I wrote it.
   186. base ball chick Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4692555)
oh yeah
and if a person's own Dog drowns and that person says, whatevs, it was just a Dog, then we call that person michael vick and we heap well deserved scorn upon his worthless wretchedness. unless, of course, he is a good football player for our favorite team and then, hey, no biggie.
   187. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4692556)
I agree that on a societal level dog abuse is not as bad as people abuse.

If you're saying that because society is comprised of people, and for society to work it needs to protect its own, then sure. But on a moral level, I don't differentiate much. Suffering is suffering. To knowingly cause suffering to anyone or anything for no purpose other than to bring pleasure to oneself is how I define evil. The degree of that evil is, I think, related almost entirely to the extent of the suffering being caused and not at all on what type of creature is being abused.

   188. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4692558)
My point is that if you're elevating the damage of rape in order to make it more of a hot button issue/less acceptable/more shunned in society then it's a double edge sword, you're also creating a larger stigma for the victims.


I don't disagree with this. However, you're also saying it's not legitimate to view rape as a fundamentally/inherently life-damaging thing, and to use that view as the baseline in our social reaction to/treatment of it, because you posit some unspecified percentage of outliers who don't experience it as particularly damaging. I think that's faulty in both premise (your percentage seems to be significantly larger than what I'd say is realistic) and logic.
   189. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4692559)
As to Michael Vick, I think what he did was wrong but I don't spend my time caring about what he did.

So it's not that I don't care per se but that I don't spend time caring about it -- in that when I watch him play or see that he signed with the Jets I don't stop my life to get outraged about it.
   190. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4692561)
As to Michael Vick, I think what he did was wrong but I don't spend my time caring about what he did.


Why was it wrong? They were just dogs.
   191. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4692562)
Why was it wrong? They were just dogs.


This is the moment in the episode when Spock has an epiphany about human feelings.
   192. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4692565)
Great. Now I'm envisioning Ray as Spock, Ayn Rand as T'Pau & Michelle Malkin or Ann Coulter as T'Pring.
   193. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4692566)
Why was it wrong? They were just dogs.


Because the "just" in my "just dogs" comment does not mean "zero" but means "less than humans."

Please try to read in context.
   194. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4692567)
Were you arching your Nimoy-esque eyebrows when you typed that?
   195. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:21 PM (#4692569)
Great. Now I'm envisioning Ray as Spock, Ayn Rand as T'Pau & Michelle Malkin or Ann Coulter as T'Pring.


I'm just picturing him mind-melding with the Horta.
   196. JuanGone..except1game Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4692573)
As to Michael Vick, I think what he did was wrong but I don't spend my time caring about what he did.

This may be the only thing that Ray and I would ever agree on. I got a dog personally for my 1st birthday and cared for him until he died when I was about 16. Most of the time, I loved that dog more than my family, but he was a dog and not a human. I just can't understand why people feel the need to make domesticated animals into something that there not. And I found it even crazier that people can't understand how, because they aren't human, other people/cultures don't look at them the same way. I don't think that what Vick did was right, but acting as if he committed some unforgivable sin like supporting Jeter's retirement extravaganza seems like a bit much.
   197. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4692579)
This rehashed tangent is as tedious as any here, which is very.
   198. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:40 PM (#4692588)
If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

Ray's thoughts on the validity of domesticated animals is graduate-level scientific denial that makes his climate expertise seem almost knowledgeable.

Your flat-earth concept of this does not makes me faint, however, Ray. It's just plain weird, given your intelligence.


I'm an animal rescuer volunteer, practicer, and owner. I can forgive Vick based on his actions since. I also think Sam's #87's is kinda gibberish and 'zop's generally awful in this thread. Not sure where all that puts me on the hate scale.

Oh, Lueke's in the public eye, so he can live with it. I also understand animals are animals and that's why I don't swerve for cats and dogs in the road. That being said, re: #196 if it's a black lab or a rapist drowning, well, I admit I'm probably not going for the rapist.
   199. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4692596)
This rehashed tangent is as tedious as any here, which is very.


And yet people keep jumping in and swimming out after it, almost as if it were...nevermind.
   200. Wet Willie Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4692599)
Dogs are capable of inferring human desire from mere gesture.


I'm too tired to complete the joke, Joe.

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