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Tuesday, April 22, 2014

Josh Lueke Is A Rapist, You Say? Keep Saying It.

But during that Saturday night game, DRaysBay.com editor Erik Hahmann suggested that enough was enough. “It gets brought up every game by some ####### on twitter,” he tweeted. What ensued was a discussion, largely made up of male writers and fans, about the etiquette of reminding people that Lueke raped a woman.

Lars6788 Posted: April 22, 2014 at 09:31 PM | 302 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brett myers, josh lueke, rape, rays, when enough is enough

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   201. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4692600)
First Nieporent, now this? I was honestly unaware that doctrinaire libertarianism also mandated disdain for animals.
It doesn't; I just don't like animals. Or people. Or plants, frankly.
   202. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:52 PM (#4692605)
Reposting for the flip, because I yammered on so much about it:


If we blew up the planet and started over would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them, much less treating animals as equal members of the family and holding them in as high or higher importance than humans?

Ray's thoughts on the validity of domesticated animals is graduate-level scientific denial that makes his climate expertise seem almost knowledgeable.

Your flat-earth concept of this does not makes me faint, however, Ray. It's just incredibly weird, given your intelligence.


I'm an animal rescuer volunteer, practicer, and owner. I can forgive Vick based on his actions since. I also think Sam's #87's is kinda gibberish and 'zop's generally awful in this thread. Not sure where all that puts me on the hate scale.

Oh, Lueke's in the public eye, so he can live with it. I also understand animals are animals and that's why I don't swerve for cats and dogs in the road. That being said, re: #196 if it's a black lab or a rapist drowning, well, I admit I'm probably not going for the rapist.
   203. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4692608)
I'm too tired to complete the joke, Joe.


Uh, ok.
   204. caprules Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4692615)
would we still end up with the bizarre output where people choose to have animals living under the same roof as them


You first have to provide sufficient evidence that it is bizarre, otherwise your belief is irrational. I'm confident that I can google more stories of dogs savings humans than you can of tragedies where humans make horrible decisions because they underestimated what their dogs were capable of.
   205. valuearbitrageur Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4692621)
Let's do some logic real quick here: this women does not remember being raped, doesn't appear to have any negative health effects, so the only ill feelings she is going to have going forward are going to come from people saying "you were raped and it was a horrible experience and you will never be the same".


I had a colonoscopy like this. It didn't traumatize me in the least. But I also didn't find my doctors DNA all over my hair and in my behind afterwards.

I'm guessing if a night occurred that ended with that particular evidence, especially after a drunken night out with a group of the guys posting here, I might have some long term trauma. But I am a guy, so I'm not allowed to admit that, so I would be forced to say are in a manly voice "nice one, guys, you got me good this time" as I waddle off to the ER.

No offense meant to anyone on this thread, it's possible I would have enjoyed all of you handsome dudes, but it's the not knowing part that would screw with my head for the rest of my life.
   206. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4692667)
But I also didn't find my doctors DNA all over my hair and in my behind afterwards.
Did you look? (Note that DNA is not a euphemism for semen.)
   207. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4692688)
I think 29 year old relievers with a career high ERA+ of 78 tend to cost about a penny anyway.

Beyond the moral implications, I really wonder why a team would put up with Lueke given that...he's not very good. Given the choice between some other journeyman reliever and Lueke, why on earth would you pick the rapist?
   208. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:40 PM (#4692693)
It doesn't; I just don't like animals. Or people. Or plants, frankly.
The fundamental basis for libertarianism right there.
   209. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4692748)
We aren't automatically accepting them. We're drawing on related pieces of information, like Lueke lying to the police about whether he had sex with the victim, Lueke entering a no-contest plea to a violent felony, and Lueke delivering an in-court apology (mealy-mouthed and self-serving though it was), to determine that he is, in all likelihood, a piece-of-#### rapist #######.

Well, it appears that many are ignoring the 42-day sentence. That would seem highly unusual for a "violent felony", so maybe it wasn't? I don't claim to have followed this case, but there aren't any references to a firestorm of criticism directed toward the judge, either. Doing 42 days in the slammer isn't anything to be proud of, but I don't see how folks can be so certain that Lueke's guilt goes beyond that to encompass charges that the prosecution dropped. It's not like he had a nationally televised trial that gave us a basis to evaluate the evidence against him.
   210. Shibal Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4692751)
I'm guessing if a night occurred that ended with that particular evidence, especially after a drunken night out with a group of the guys posting here, I might have some long term trauma. But I am a guy, so I'm not allowed to admit that, so I would be forced to say are in a manly voice "nice one, guys, you got me good this time" as I waddle off to the ER.


I think you'll be OK. There are so many jokes about men getting raped in prison; it must not cause much trauma if people are going to laugh about it.



   211. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4692809)
That would seem highly unusual for a "violent felony", so maybe it wasn't?


The particular charge to which he entered his no-contest plea is listed in the criminal code as a felony, and since its specific name is "false imprisonment with violence", I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it wasn't a violent felony. Though you appear to be interested in trying to do so anyway, for some reason.
   212. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:14 PM (#4692812)
Let's do some logic real quick here: this women does not remember being raped, doesn't appear to have any negative health effects, so the only ill feelings she is going to have going forward are going to come from people saying "you were raped and it was a horrible experience and you will never be the same".


Ahem:

More than a year after the investigation began, the victim gave her consent for prosecutors to offer a plea deal because she was worried about the stress of a trial. Sources close to the case say that after her ordeal, she could no longer sleep in the dark, went through extensive therapy and bouts of depression and eventually lost her job. -Geoff Baker, The Seattle Times
   213. steagles Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:57 PM (#4692855)
I had a colonoscopy like this. It didn't traumatize me in the least. But I also didn't find my doctors DNA all over my hair and in my behind afterwards.
something like this?
   214. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 23, 2014 at 11:48 PM (#4692883)
Sources close to the case say that after her ordeal, she could no longer sleep in the dark, went through extensive therapy and bouts of depression and eventually lost her job. -Geoff Baker, The Seattle Times
I blame society for reminding her all the time.
   215. JuanGone..except1game Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:06 AM (#4692889)
Well, it appears that many are ignoring the 42-day sentence.

And it looks like you ignoring the actual article. See 212.
   216. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:26 AM (#4692925)
My feelings (or lack of, I should say) on pets used to be similar to Ray before actually having any. Which makes his position seem both completely reasonable to me and unutterably alien, as I tend towards bbc's line of thinking after a few years of pet ownership. And my pets aren't even good ones.
   217. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 07:50 AM (#4692932)
I'm not sure this is a hard and fast rule but I've never met anyone who had a pet when growing up who didn't love pets as an adult.


My eldest boy doesn't seem to like pets. The dogs and cats tried, but he is not very open to them and standoffish. He just doesn't seem to like them at all. The rest of us in the house love them. They are part of the family, not human (obviously) and I sure am not jumping in to save the dog from drowning, but still they (especially the dog) is a family member.

A good friend of mine lives in Alaska, and his friend took his family including dog) out fishing. They ran into a black bear, which started (slowly) following them around a some natural and constructed features - a couple stairs and platforms, so could go in a circle, down on side and up the other. And that is what was happening, with the bear following them.

The guy eventually told the dog to sit and kept retreating, planning on using the dog as a bear buffer and getting he and his children out of harms way. The dog, being a dog, was not thrilled, but did as he was told as a large bear walked up to him. About then a brown bear showed up (brown bears HATE black bears, btw) and went after the black bear. Dude took family (and dog) and got out of their.

Dogs give love and loyalty and are useful. Not as useful in the city, but for much of human history it helped human survival to have dogs (and bears notwithstanding helped dog survival as well). Humans and dogs are partners. So if we did it all over again, yes we would keep pets.
   218. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:05 AM (#4692936)
I'm still lost on Ray's thinking as to how things would be "different" with domesticated animals if we started over.

I wonder if he really thinks the whimsical liberal early hunters taxed their tribe to pay for training dogs to hunt with them, instead of doing the hunting themselves. Always looking for a handout, amirite, Ugg?
   219. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:08 AM (#4692939)
I'm still lost on Ray's thinking as to how things would be "different" with domesticated animals if we started over.


Domesticated animals, as both cattle and companion animals (hunting dogs, etc) is more natural and obvious a human behavior than living in cities.
   220. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:12 AM (#4692941)
i am hoping that if, indeed there is a heaven and by some chance God lets me in, that my Dogz are all there too, because it really wouldn't be heaven without my Dogz.
There's a documentary about this you should check out-- it will be assuring.
   221. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:53 AM (#4692962)
I'm still lost on Ray's thinking as to how things would be "different" with domesticated animals if we started over.


Scare quotes on the wrong word. Here let me show you:

I'm still lost on Ray's "thinking" as to how things would be different with domesticated animals if we started over.
   222. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:03 AM (#4692979)
i am hoping that if, indeed there is a heaven and by some chance God lets me in, that my Dogz are all there too, because it really wouldn't be heaven without my Dogz.

There's a documentary about this you should check out-- it will be assuring.


The one with Burt Reynolds?
   223. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:11 AM (#4692985)
The one with Burt Reynolds?
And Dom DeLuise.
   224. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:11 AM (#4692987)
My eldest boy doesn't seem to like pets. The dogs and cats tried, but he is not very open to them and standoffish. He just doesn't seem to like them at all.


Sounds like there's a chance he could grow up to be a Ray-like empty shell. A reboot might well be in order, if not a wholesale hard-drive switch-out.
   225. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:31 AM (#4693005)
Sounds like there's a chance he could grow up to be a Ray-like empty shell. A reboot might well be in order, if not a wholesale hard-drive switch-out.


Well he is on the autism spectrum (my boy) and has difficulty connecting with people, but on the whole is is a very nice young man. Mostly he wants to be left alone and the animals keep expecting attention from him (plus I think he is a bit jealous that the younger gets along very well with the pets).

Of course of my two boys, the elder is the one who is more likely to end up being a serial killer, so there is that. I know I try to stay on his good side.

Note: The above paragraph is a joke. Mostly.
   226. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4693041)
Domestication of dogs has been taking place for at least 30000 years. And cooperative relationships between species is not by any means a human only feature. Also, if we didn't have such relationships with other organisms, we would become much less efficient, and much less likely to survive, just imagine humanity without our gut flora and how much they add to our ability to obtain sustenance from food.
   227. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:34 AM (#4693067)
just imagine humanity without our gut flora


Funny, that's a recurring nightmare I have. I show up at an important client meeting without my gut flora.
   228. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4693078)
The last time we went around on this pets thing I conceded that it's me against the world. So you people can stop trying to justify your views on this. I may call your views on this "bizarre" (and I do) but clearly the world sees my position as the true "bizarre" one. So you can gleefully carry on.

I just wish you'd do a better job of picking up the feces your pets leaves around the city. It's a minefield when I walk around New York, and that's not even including the filthy activity of having dogs urinate on every portion of the sidewalk edge and around every sign post, lamp post, meter post, trash can, and tree, all because you people are Lonely and need the attention of animals, despite the fact that most of you have families.

   229. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4693084)
Robots don't get lonely.
   230. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4693086)
I just wish you'd do a better job of picking up the feces your pets leaves around the city.


I wish fat people would avoid crowded areas.
   231. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4693087)
I just wish you'd do a better job of picking up the feces your pets leaves around the city.


That's a problem with your fellow New Yorkers, not with pets.
   232. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4693089)
Robots don't get lonely.


Wall-E was.
   233. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4693092)
That's a problem with your fellow New Yorkers, not with pets.


Eliminating one would eliminate the other. Take your pick.
   234. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4693095)
I just wish you'd do a better job of picking up the feces your pets leaves around the city.


Yes. Pick up the damn poop people, sheesh. I always have baggies with me when I am out with the dog. It is only common courtesy.

the filthy activity of having dogs urinate on every portion of the sidewalk edge and around every sign post, lamp post, meter post, trash can, and tree


Get over it dude. Dogs pee to mark things. It is not really that unhygienic or gross. Don't lick every sign post, lamp post, meter post, trash can, and tree and you will be fine.

Besides scientists are starting to think exposure to some germs is healthy and keeps our immune system up, and also kids with pets are in some ways healthier (primarily regarding allergies if I remember correctly).
   235. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4693098)
Wall-E was.


An OK, but overrated movie.
   236. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:04 AM (#4693116)
Never seen it & am not likely to (among other factors, my interest in animated stuff is somewhere around zero). I prefer my robots neither seen nor heard, I suppose.
   237. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4693126)
Besides scientists are starting to think exposure to some germs is healthy and keeps our immune system up


I don't think animal waste creates the kind of germs science says are ok to be around.

I could be wrong.
   238. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4693159)
I prefer my robots neither seen nor heard, I suppose.


C-3PO politely begs to differ. R2-D2 beeps vehemently.

EDIT: for proper hyphenation, because Lord knows there are people here who will call that out.
   239. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4693164)
Isn't urine sterile anyway?
   240. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4693166)
I don't think animal waste creates the kind of germs science says are ok to be around.


Nah, the hygiene hypothesis is based on the assumption that exposure to all sorts of germs stimulates the immune system. Animal dander, which typically contains various poops and piddles plus skin, drool, whatever, is pretty much ideal in this regard.
   241. CrosbyBird Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4693259)
A lot of the people I talk to feel exactly the same about Vick. In fact I'm often amazed that people are more bothered by Vick abusing dogs than they are about various athletes who abused humans in varying forms.

Let's start with some context. Vick was engaged in a multi-year systematic torture and murder of animals for sport. The sport was the harm, as opposed to factory farming, where the harm is an undesired consequence. I think factory farming is evil, but the difference here is the difference between callous disregard and intentional torture.

The human equivalent Vick in terms of behavior is something like Ariel Castro. That the victims were dogs and not human beings certainly lessens the amount of harm, but the length of time and the brutality of the action crosses a moral threshold that I simply can't ever overlook.

Vick didn't make a "mistake." He wasn't acting in the heat of passion or under the influence. That's who he was as a person, and something in his makeup allowed him to not only experience, but participate in, the intense suffering of living creatures for the purpose of a game. I think that's a fundamental defect of character that I don't ever need to absolve him of (not that I think it is my place or within my power to absolve him).

I am a Jets fan, and I will not be watching any of their games this season. I'm not suggesting that anyone else be morally obligated to do the same, I'm not calling for Vick to be fired, and I'm not suggesting that he should be locked up for his entire life. I am fairly sure that he will never, ever seriously harm an animal again. But there's a point where no matter how much a person does to redeem himself, I don't want to associate with him.

As for Lueke, he did a pretty awful thing even with the most charitable interpretation. He'll have to live with that for the rest of his life, and while I'm not interested in joining the Twitter army, I'm certainly not going to tell them they're wrong to keep reminding everyone. He's not a player I'd root for. The best I could say about him is that it might have been a one-time thing that he did while intoxicated, but I've been drunk plenty of times and I've never once had the impulse to violate and degrade an unconscious woman, let alone acted on it, so I don't have much sympathy.
   242. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4693268)
The last time we went around on this pets thing I conceded that it's me against the world. So you people can stop trying to justify your views on this. I may call your views on this "bizarre" (and I do) but clearly the world sees my position as the true "bizarre" one. So you can gleefully carry on.


You know what they say, "Live by calling everyone who disagrees with you on anything bizarre, die by everyone doing the same thing to you."

I don't know why they all say that. It's not a very good saying.
   243. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4693271)
I have been carrying on gleefully all day. Thanks, Ray.
   244. CrosbyBird Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4693292)
I think there may be some weak correlation between the kind of logical mind libertarianism appeals to and the pragmatism that doesn't see the point in pets that provide no apparent function.

Very weak, in my experience outside of BBTF.

Dogs and humans exist in a somewhat symbiotic relationship. They provide us with affection and enhance our lives emotionally (which I feel basically should end the question of why people have them), but there are also other benefits. The same characteristics that make dogs loyal pets are the ones that make them suited to provide service to the disabled, or protect the home. Some dogs can actually smell cancer in the earliest stages, and the combination of their excellent sense of smell and superior hearing allows them to warn if strangers are nearby.

There is little question that we would domesticate dogs and keep them in our homes in pretty much any circumstances where both humans and dogs existed. In a post-apocalyptic world, we wouldn't bother with show dogs, but you can bet a lot of breeds would still be pretty popular for defense, for safety, and for companionship. (We'd probably keep cats around for the emotional benefits and for rat control as well.)

You might even argue that owning a dog shows a certain level of responsibility and regard for life. If you know that I have the capacity to care for another living thing, that demonstrates at least some non-selfish instincts.
   245. base ball chick Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4693342)
228. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4693078)
The last time we went around on this pets thing I conceded that it's me against the world. So you people can stop trying to justify your views on this. I may call your views on this "bizarre" (and I do) but clearly the world sees my position as the true "bizarre" one. So you can gleefully carry on.


- really?
what culture has no pets?


I just wish you'd do a better job of picking up the feces your pets leaves around the city. It's a minefield when I walk around New York, and that's not even including the filthy activity of having dogs urinate on every portion of the sidewalk edge and around every sign post, lamp post, meter post, trash can, and tree, all because you people are Lonely and need the attention of animals, despite the fact that most of you have families


- then i can say it is a NY problem
folksa down here who take their Dogz for walks are carrying plastic bags around, too
get over the urine - it has no germs in it and you step in a heck of a lot worse stuff on a city sidewalk

having a family most certainly does not exactly stop lonliness
actually, some of the lonliest folks i know have families. living under the same roof does not = love or care in any way. and living under the same roof with others who do NOT care is worse than being alone
   246. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4693356)
I am looking forward to getting home and being greeted by my dog. Who will then want to be walked, in the rain :(. I hate dogs.
   247. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4693572)
Isn't urine sterile anyway?


Nope!
   248. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4693579)
I think we all need to chip in and buy Ray a puppy.
   249. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4693585)
I think we all need to chip in and buy Ray a puppy.


I forbid this. Do you hate puppies?

Re: the urine thing: has anyone here given a urine sample where they didn't wear latex gloves when taking the specimen cup from you?
   250. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:16 PM (#4693586)
I wouldn't even trust him with an Aibo.
   251. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4693589)
Maybe a Roomba.
   252. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4693592)
I forbid this. Do you hate puppies?

well.....
   253. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:26 PM (#4693594)
   254. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: April 24, 2014 at 07:25 PM (#4693635)
I think we all need to chip in and buy Ray a puppy that looks Ichiro.


Fixed.
   255. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:23 PM (#4693693)
I forbid this. Do you hate puppies?


What if we buy Ray a puppy with rabies? And that knows how to use a gun?
   256. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:28 PM (#4693696)
It's Rover. It's always been Rover.
   257. Wet Willie Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4693700)
You haven't really lived 'til you've slept with a dog.
   258. Wet Willie Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4693703)
There's good reason rape threads are a sordid tradition at BBTF -- they come with the territory of worship of professional athletes. The quote about the Steelers fan making peace with having a rapist QB was to the point -- Roethlisberger and Lueke are the tip of an iceberg that is rarely exposed even in the current wall-to-wall media environment. The rapist/athlete is a cliche, and you can rest assured that the team you pull for has at least one member who is sexually predatory. Most just learn to cover their tracks well.

Dogz will be dogz...
   259. CrosbyBird Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:07 PM (#4693715)
It's Rover. It's always been Rover.

This is the thread-winner.
   260. steagles Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:07 PM (#4693716)
Let's start with some context. Vick was engaged in a multi-year systematic torture and murder of animals for sport. The sport was the harm, as opposed to factory farming, where the harm is an undesired consequence. I think factory farming is evil, but the difference here is the difference between callous disregard and intentional torture.

The human equivalent Vick in terms of behavior is something like Ariel Castro. That the victims were dogs and not human beings certainly lessens the amount of harm, but the length of time and the brutality of the action crosses a moral threshold that I simply can't ever overlook.

Vick didn't make a "mistake." He wasn't acting in the heat of passion or under the influence. That's who he was as a person, and something in his makeup allowed him to not only experience, but participate in, the intense suffering of living creatures for the purpose of a game. I think that's a fundamental defect of character that I don't ever need to absolve him of (not that I think it is my place or within my power to absolve him).

I am a Jets fan, and I will not be watching any of their games this season. I'm not suggesting that anyone else be morally obligated to do the same, I'm not calling for Vick to be fired, and I'm not suggesting that he should be locked up for his entire life. I am fairly sure that he will never, ever seriously harm an animal again. But there's a point where no matter how much a person does to redeem himself, I don't want to associate with him.

i think you vastly overestimate the degree to which vick was involved with the day to day operations of dog killing/torturing.

also, as a citizen, vick was truly flawless here in philly. i get why a lot of people do not think he deserved a 2nd chance, but he was given one and he has done everything possible to make the most of it.
   261. CrosbyBird Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:13 PM (#4693718)
i think you vastly overestimate the degree to which vick was involved with the day to day operations of dog killing/torturing.

You should read into the extent of the brutality that Vick didn't merely oversee, but participate in, if you can stomach it. For example, Vick personally killed dogs (as in, more than one) by slamming them into a concrete floor. That's personal enough for me.

also, as a citizen, vick was truly flawless here in philly. i get why a lot of people do not think he deserved a 2nd chance, but he was given one and he has done everything possible to make the most of it.

I can respect Michael Vick's efforts to reform his image, and in fact, I credit him for it. He has done practically everything that I could expect him to do. I don't wish evil on him.

But I can't cheer for him.
   262. Booey Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:13 PM (#4694006)
You haven't really lived 'til you've slept with a dog.


Perv.

;-)

   263. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4694019)
For example, Vick personally killed dogs (as in, more than one) by slamming them into a concrete floor. That's personal enough for me.


But he can throw a football (well, sort of ... he's not particularly good at it, apparently; from what I can gather, his real strengths are running, getting hurt & making terrible on-field decisions). That's quite enough for his apologists, as we've seen here.
   264. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4694102)
But he can throw a football (well, sort of ... he's not particularly good at it, apparently; from what I can gather, his real strengths are running, getting hurt & making terrible on-field decisions). That's quite enough for his apologists, as we've seen here.


I don't "apologize" for him; I just don't care enough to let it affect my life any.

People who assemble to actively "protest," well, anything, really do need to get lives.
   265. Lassus Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4694119)
But he can throw a football (well, sort of ... he's not particularly good at it, apparently; from what I can gather, his real strengths are running, getting hurt & making terrible on-field decisions). That's quite enough for his apologists, as we've seen here.

This is different from forgiveness due to rehabilitation, right? Or, no? I don't even watch football.
   266. Srul Itza Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4694135)
This is the thread-winner.


Seconded and thirded.
   267. Srul Itza Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4694140)
People who assemble to actively "protest," well, anything, really do need to get lives.


You mean like the people who started the American Revolution?
   268. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4694194)
Times have changed.
   269. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:56 PM (#4694209)
People who assemble to actively "protest," well, anything, really do need to get lives.
Written without a hint of irony by a guy who spends 9 hours a day posting to an internet baseball site. Beautiful.
   270. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 25, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4694250)
You might even argue that owning a dog shows a certain level of responsibility and regard for life. If you know that I have the capacity to care for another living thing, that demonstrates at least some non-selfish instincts.


True. I've never lived in a house with a dog or a cat. They're alien creatures to me. One reason that I would never consider owning a dog or a cat (outside of the feeling that they're dirty) is that I would never want to have responsibility for another living being's welfare. I know that I'm not capable of it, and it would be unfair to the animal. I would never be intentionally cruel to an animal, but I am totally unable to understand them. One of the most harrowing experiences of my life was when I agreed to housesit a friend's dog for the weekend. I simply was unable to communicate with the dog, or figure out what she wanted and/or needed. I ended up taking her outside virtually every time she looked at me. But by the last day, I literally was driven to tears because I couldn't understand what to do. There must be some kind of inner ability that most people have that allows them to be empathic to animals, and I totally lack that.
   271. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 25, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4694293)
The dog probably wanted you to pat him/her on the head, maybe give it a little belly rub.

Seriously. The best way to communicate with a dog is by contact. Let the dog sniff the back of your hand for 10-20 seconds. Then, scratch him under the chin. He'll wag his tail and let you pat his head, his neck.

Once you establish that, you'll understand them better.
   272. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4694296)
Let the dog sniff the back of your hand for 10-20 seconds. Then,


...wash your hands, and wonder why you let the dog sniff the back of your hand to begin with?
   273. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4694314)
There must be some kind of inner ability that most people have that allows them to be empathic to animals, and I totally lack that.


Just how many people here are ... well, not people, but automatons?
   274. CrosbyBird Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4694359)
There are basically five things a healthy and happy dog ever really wants: solitude, food, water, to go out, or attention. Even if you're entirely tone-deaf to their signals, it doesn't take long to find out which one gets the dog to stop staring you down.
   275. dlf Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4694362)
256 is the first time I've ever truly laughed at a post here. Well done.
   276. Wet Willie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4694371)
Seriously. The best way to communicate with a dog is by contact. Let the dog sniff the back of your hand for 10-20 seconds. Then, scratch him under the chin. He'll wag his tail and let you pat his head, his neck.


Works for me, too. Euphemistically speaking
   277. Wet Willie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4694376)
Just how many people here are ... well, not people, but automatons?


Our culture would like us to forget that we are animals, and that we have bodies. We all suffer from some form of alientation from our nature, some obviously more than others.

While I can feel quite alienated from most adults, children and dogs seem to dig me. And Bivens.
   278. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4694386)
Yeah I guess.
   279. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4694423)
Joe Bivens is neither an adult or a child, apparently. (Or a dog.)

Discuss.
   280. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4694433)
He's a member of an early-90s "New Jack Swing" group, isn't he?
   281. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4694458)
There are basically five things a healthy and happy dog ever really wants: solitude, food, water, to go out, or attention.


I think you are missing one there.
   282. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4694466)
They aren't gonna stare you down for that.
   283. Jick Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4694476)
I don't "apologize" for him; I just don't care enough to let it affect my life any.


That's not what "apologist" means.
   284. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4694477)
i have killed just about everything that walks and crawls in north America (and a few places beyond) and I have a kennel full of hounds and enjoy their company.

and unlike the kids who couldn't name the farm animals and be witness to killing them I had no issue calling a steer by name as it was raised for slaughter and then handling it myself (I enjoy butchering meat--not stated for humor. Just a fact)

it is oft stated that a lack of empathy toward animals is a sign of sociopathic tendencies. as I may have mentioned at other times I was termed a 'borderline sociopath' by the army docs a long time ago.

yet I think I shown great care toward my hounds. they are 'good eggs' as we say in these parts. not cats though. or other varmints.

so don't know what to make of all that

but thought I would share
   285. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4694495)
as I may have mentioned at other times I was termed a 'borderline sociopath' by the army docs a long time ago.


Which of course may or may not mean a damned thing. I remember getting a preliminary diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, despite not showing (as I discovered upon researching the subject after that) any of the obvious indicators for that condition (as remains the case to this day), a few years back.
   286. Lassus Posted: April 25, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4694520)
it is oft stated that a lack of empathy toward animals is a sign of sociopathic tendencies. as I may have mentioned at other times I was termed a 'borderline sociopath' by the army docs a long time ago.

I am certainly not a farmer, but I come from multiple small farmer families, and killing one's farm animals simply is not the same as having no empathy for them, at least from what I've seen at least.
   287. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 25, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4694524)
(I enjoy butchering meat--not stated for humor. Just a fact)


You are an odd duck, no not in the 'borderline sociopath' sense, but butchering a large animal is hard tedious work, that's like enjoying digging ditches or something.
   288. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4694533)
Which of course may or may not mean a damned thing. I remember getting a preliminary diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, despite not showing (as I discovered upon researching the subject after that) any of the obvious indicators for that condition (as remains the case to this day), a few years back.


Yeah, but are you taking BTF into account? I mean, hell, if I read all of my posts as part of my self-expression proper, I'd lock myself away.
   289. Josie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4694536)
What people talking about "rape culture" seem to want is the lower the bar of reasonable doubt in rape cases.

When people talk about "rape culture", they are talking about many societal factors, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone advocate rape trials using a different standard than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

OTOH, it would be nice if police officers tasked with investigating rape crimes treated them more like other violent crime cases...
   290. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: April 25, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4694539)
Johnny

think it's the sense of satisfaction at doing something physical but with precision

Before my body went to h8ll I always preferred digging holes for fence posts by hand versus using my back hoe

   291. CrosbyBird Posted: April 25, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4694598)
yet I think I shown great care toward my hounds. they are 'good eggs' as we say in these parts.

They're smart enough to know to stay on your good side.

Outside of illness or abuse, there's no such thing as a bad dog. There are crappy owners that don't train them properly or pick up after them.
   292. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 26, 2014 at 08:33 AM (#4694659)
I am certainly not a farmer, but I come from multiple small farmer families, and killing one's farm animals simply is not the same as having no empathy for them, at least from what I've seen at least.
Yes, i'm sure the animals grasp that distinction.
   293. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 26, 2014 at 08:54 AM (#4694666)
Yes, i'm sure the animals grasp that distinction.


Sure. The familial farm animals place their own heads on the chopping block.
   294. LargeBill Posted: April 26, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4694701)
249. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4693585)

I think we all need to chip in and buy Ray a puppy.



I forbid this. Do you hate puppies?

Re: the urine thing: has anyone here given a urine sample where they didn't wear latex gloves when taking the specimen cup from you?


Yes. First decade or so after the military started doing random drug screenings the Urinalysis Coordinator (collector) didn't wear gloves. The glove thing is a relatively recent (mid-90's) change. The pee goes inside the bottle not on the outside. Wash hands afterwards.
   295. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4694705)
I am certainly not a farmer, but I come from multiple small farmer families, and killing one's farm animals simply is not the same as having no empathy for them, at least from what I've seen at least.

Yes, i'm sure the animals grasp that distinction.

What you quoted wasn't at all about animals. Thank you for picking up Ray's libertarian slack regarding knowledge of human beings.
   296. Howie Menckel Posted: April 26, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4694875)
"Pick up the damn poop people, sheesh. I always have baggies with me when I am out with the dog. It is only common courtesy."

My condo complex instituted "doggie DNA" last year. Everyone with a dog has to pay about 25 bucks to Poo Prints (!) to get the sample done and submitted to the condo association. Idea is that if any stray poop is found, they can find - and fine - the offending miscreants.

I just have 2 indoor cats, so I find this hilarious.

......

"There must be some kind of inner ability that most people have that allows them to be empathic to animals, and I totally lack that."

My most useless superpower might be being an Animal Whisperer. Not just dogs and cats, but horses, butterflies - you name it. Mildly amusing, but practically zero utility about it (except that women like it, which come to think of it makes it a great superpower, doesn't it?)




   297. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4694885)
Everyone with a dog has to pay about 25 bucks to Poo Prints (!) to get the sample done and submitted to the condo association. Idea is that if any stray poop is found, they can find - and fine - the offending miscreants.

I wish I lived there so I could submit fake dog poop, because there's not a lot of other secret-agent stuff I can reasonably be involved in.
   298. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 26, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4694888)
What would you use? Your own?
   299. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 26, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4694892)
Fauxpoo.
   300. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 26, 2014 at 07:52 PM (#4694970)
Pinetarpoo
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