Morgan is most likely right. One of the reasons the Astros had such good pitching is the fences at the Astrodome were in another time zone compared to other parks. But I still think the Reds were a better club on paper before Morgan got there than the Astros were. The Reds had been in the 1970 World Series.

The irony is that Houston gave all that to the Reds to get Lee May, when the Astros already had John Mayberry on their roster. Of course, once the Astros got May they figured they no longer needed Mayberry, so less than a week after trading away Morgan, Billingham and Geronimo, Houston sent Mayberry and another player to the Royals for Lance Clemons and Jim York.

So you figure Mayberry, Morgan, Metzger and Rader in the infield; you've got Wynn, Cedeno, Staub, Watson and Geronimo to choose from in the outfield. Staub did bring back Billingham (eventually, after Donn Clendenon refused to go to Texas); so you really shouldn't consider a scenario where the Astros have both Staub and Billingham. You can add Mike Cuellar (traded to the Orioles for Curt Blefary, who in turn was traded after one season to Yankees for Joe Pepitone) to the pitchers Morgan names above.

Of course, you could also imagine a scenario where Frank Robinson is never traded for Milt Papas, and is therefore a part of those Big Red Machine teams of 1969-1976 (the year Robinson retired). Now that would have been some team!

Anyway, turning back to reality, it might be interesting (though, for this Mets fan, quite painful) to try to calculate which of the two 1962 NL expansion franchises, the Astros or the Mets, did the poorer job when it came to holding onto or trading away their top prospects from that era.

DB

Well the Mets kept their best one, so I think you'd have to give the "win" to the Astros.

Well the Mets kept their best one...

Not for much longer.

DB

I seem top recall that the Astros had some issues with racists in either the front office or in its coaches- or am I just suffering from a pre-Halloween hangover?

Doug Decatur, who has worked for a few major league teams over the years and has his own web site, wrote a book ("Traded" which I bought on Amazon) analyzing the worst trades in history using future win shares. I am pretty sure he specifically talks about the Morgan trade (I can't look it up now since I lent the book to a friend) and comes to the same conclusion that Morgan does. While I ually disagree wth Joe M's insights (the Fire Joe Morgan site was one of my favorites), I gotta agree with him here.

Houston was on the good side of another "worst trade ever" when they sent Glenn Davis to the O's and received Curt Schilling, Pete Harnisch and Steve Finley......Although the trade didn't help them reach the post season.....

The irony is that Houston gave all that to the Reds to get Lee May, when the Astros already had John Mayberry on their roster. Of course, once the Astros got May they figured they no longer needed Mayberry, so less than a week after trading away Morgan, Billingham and Geronimo, Houston sent Mayberry and another player to the Royals for Lance Clemons and Jim York.

And they wouldn't have needed either if they hadn't let Nate Colbert go in the 1969 expansion draft, where he immediately became a terrific first baseman for the Padres. He didn't last really long, but from 1969-73, he was a heckuva hitter.

Other moves:

They trades Mike Marshall to Montreal in June 1970. By 1972, he was a star reliever.

They traded Jerry Reuss to Pittsburgh for Milt May in October 1973. May had one good year, one bad year before being dumped. Reuss remained a solid if unspectacular innings eater for 15+ years.

Two months later, Houston traded Jimmy Wynn to LA for Claude Osteen. Wynn had some good years ahead. Osteen had a half-season in Hoston before being dumped for some nobodies.

These were all on Spec Richardson, right?

The fences at the Astrodome were in another time zone compared to other parks.

Time zones don't define a distinct...

No, wait, they do, never mind.

They traded Jerry Reuss to Pittsburgh for Milt May in October 1973. May had one good year, one bad year before being dumped. Reuss remained a solid if unspectacular innings eater for 15+ years.

Durocher was managing the Astros then and really lit into Reuss in NICE GUYS FINISH LAST. Unless, of course, "the a--hole of all time" was a term of endearment.

On the plus side the Astros got Jim Bouton for Dooley Womack.

I suppose the key bad move was ownership getting rid of GM Paul Richards, a sharp but arrogant man, in 1965. At the time The Sporting News denounced the move, noting Richards had assembled some good young talent.

@ 5: Harry Walker was supposedly a racist and didn't like Morgan, who by all accounts was a very, very smart player; very articulate, somewhat moody and arrogant, and let everyone know it--as a black guy in a southern city back in the late 60s/early 70s.

Also, as many have said, the Astros just didn't get park effects, and OBP, and simply failed to understand how good Morgan was since he was hitting in the 260s-270s with mid-range HR power.

When the Reds made the deal, Bob Howsam, in contrast, talked about how much Morgan got on base. But Howsam also openly admitted as the years passed that Morgan had exceeded even the Reds' expectations.

Finally, the atmosphere on the 70s Reds probably helped all those guys, Morgan included, a bit. They all liked Sparky and kept on each other to get better. The Machine was a bit of a disappointment to me, but Posnanski does portray that aspect well.

And yes, Houston might well have won a WS if they had kept all those guys. The other issue was they had was that Cesar Cedeno, while he was a fine player, did not become a Mantle or Mays-level guy, as so many thought he would. Houston gave Cedeno a ten-year contract around '72 or so.

Cesar Cedeno, while he was a fine player, did not become a Mantle or Mays-level guy, as so many thought he would. Houston gave Cedeno a ten-year contract around '72 or so.

Sure, but how many players have been Mantle/Mays level?

Different words mean different things to different people, but "fine" seems to me to be too far in the other direction -- Cedeno was a Jim Rice level hitter who played center field. Borderline Hall of Fame is pretty damned good in the grand scheme of things.

As a 14-year-old Reds fan, Lee May was one of my favorite players. When he was traded, I wrote a letter to Reds GM Bob Howsam expressing my disappointment. He wrote back a letter (which I still have) explaining that, yes, it was tough to trade away good players, but that 1) he felt the Reds needed more speed; 2) the Reds had too many right-handed hitters in their line-up, and the trade gave them a much-needed lefty bat; 3) and that the trade would significantly upgrade their defense. He was absolutely correct on all counts. Today, I'm very regretful that I didn't write him back after the 1972 season and say, yep, you were right...

Cedeno was a Jim Rice level hitter who played center field.

Sure, but at the TIME, Cedeno was seen as a moody Latin with a checkered past who was a big disappointment on the field. They built the franchise around him, so he took some crap he should not have.

And, if you look at the publications from that era, based on his performance in 1972 particularly, a huge number of people saw him as a near-lock to reach that apex.

I have always suspected that Cedeno was 3-5 years older than his given age.

yep, you were right...

Indeed.

The Reds' awesome first half in '70 happened mostly in the waning days of Crosley Field, with the three-man RH power core of Bench/Perez/May, fronted by Rose and Tolan and backed by the Carbo/McRae platoon. The old park closed on 6/24/70. There were a lot of reasons the team cooled off in the second half of 1970--regression to the mean, injuries--and that the team went 79-83 in 1971. But I think Howsam was also repsonding to the switch to Riverfront in adding Morgan.

That was cool of him to actually write back to you.

Houston vs. Mets: Houston does sort of 'win' on both counts. They developed WAY more talent than the Mets over their first 10 years of existence ... and they traded almost all of it away for next to nothing.

Really, the 60s Astros have to be one of the all-time best eras of development ever. The pitching wasn't actually all that great (more solid ... and overworked) but just Morgan, Wynn, Cedeno is nearly as good as any team can claim. Add Staub, Watson, Colbert, Mayberry and decent players like Menke and Metzger and whoever else I've missed and it's pretty ridiculous.

EDIT: And I've said this many times before ... Cesar Cedeno is the most talented player I have ever seen. His career didn't work out great, only good, but he could do everything. His 1972-73 seasons are just ridiculous, should be the stuff of legend! (possible mild exaggeration there)

This is a bit off topic. I was looking up some early Charlie Finley moves to see if he made any one-sided trades. What I found was something perhaps more impressive. This is a list of some of the amateur free agents Finley signed in 1964 (pre-draft):

Signed Felix Millan* as an amateur free agent.
Signed Blue Moon Odom as an amateur free agent.
Signed Catfish Hunter as an amateur free agent.
Signed Joe Rudi as an amateur free agent.
Signed Rollie Fingers as an amateur free agent.

In the 1965 draft, Finley took Rick Monday, Sal Bando and Gene Tenace. In '66, he drafted Reggie Jackson. In '67, he drafted Vida Blue.

*The A's lost Millan to the Braves in some sort of weird first-year player draft.

The 1962 Mets had a number of old Dodgers and Giants in an effort to insure some attendance. The Astros went young and improved more quickly.

As a 14-year-old Reds fan, Lee May was one of my favorite players. When he was traded, I wrote a letter to Reds GM Bob Howsam expressing my disappointment. He wrote back a letter (which I still have) explaining that, yes, it was tough to trade away good players, but that 1) he felt the Reds needed more speed; 2) the Reds had too many right-handed hitters in their line-up, and the trade gave them a much-needed lefty bat; 3) and that the trade would significantly upgrade their defense. He was absolutely correct on all counts. Today, I'm very regretful that I didn't write him back after the 1972 season and say, yep, you were right...

That is awesome!

Anyway, turning back to reality, it might be interesting (though, for this Mets fan, quite painful) to try to calculate which of the two 1962 NL expansion franchises, the Astros or the Mets, did the poorer job when it came to holding onto or trading away their top prospects from that era.

That might be fun (or depressing) to come up with all-time teams of players franchises had given away before their prime.

That might be fun (or depressing) to come up with all-time teams of players franchises had given away before their prime.

Michael Young would have been a nice fit for the Jays over the last decade, rather than them using the random grab-bag of retreads (and Scutaro) at SS. Chris Carpenter would also be nice to still have on the roster, although I can't fault the Jays for letting him go, given how much of a mess his shoulder was at that point.

That might be fun (or depressing) to come up with all-time teams of players franchises had given away before their prime.

I would really like to have kept Nelson Cruz.

Cesar Cedeno is the most talented player I have ever seen. His career didn't work out great, only good, but he could do everything. His 1972-73 seasons are just ridiculous, should be the stuff of legend!

Cesar's peak was a bit before my time. I just remember him for the sometimes good player he was in his last 5 or so years. For me the player who fits that description was Eric Davis around 1986-1987. I know that the hitting alone of a guy like Bonds beats Davis/Cedeno for value, but I'm more amazed by the guys who could dominate in all areas of the game like Davis, however briefly that was.

The only ones I can think of for the Royals are of course David Cone, and then Cecil Fielder, Ken Phelps, and mediocre pitchers like Atlee Hammaker, Scott Bankhead and Melido Perez. Their problem hasn't been letting good young talent go, its not getting good talent in the first place.

In the early 80s, the Phils had three blue chip middle infielders, Sandberg, Franco and Samuel. They managed to keep Samuel. :(

Sandberg and Franco basically netted them Ivan DeJesus and Von Hayes.

F. Robby

Can we just knock this crap off already?

Worthwhile players the Braves gave up before their primes off the top of my head...

C Jarrod Saltalamacchia / Max Ramirez (Neither one a big loss yet)
1B ? (Best fits I can think of are Klesko and LaRoche, but the Braves got plenty of value from them)
2B Tony Graffanino (Weak choice...)
3B Brook Jacoby
SS Elvis Andrus
LF Al Martin
CF Brett Butler
RF Jermaine Dye

SP Adam Wainwright
SP Jason Schmidt
SP Odalis Perez (Eh...)
SP Jason Marquis (Eh again...)
RP Neftali Feliz
RP Turk Wendell (For the humor only)

Two good H trades. Chuck Harrison and Sonny Jackson for Menke and Lemaster. Much later Larry Anderson for Bagwell. I hope I am remembering them correctly.

The only ones I can think of for the Royals are of course David Cone, and then Cecil Fielder, Ken Phelps, and mediocre pitchers like Atlee Hammaker, Scott Bankhead and Melido Perez. Their problem hasn't been letting good young talent go, its not getting good talent in the first place.

C Don Slaught
1B Cecil Fielder
2B Mark Ellis
3B Jose Bautista
SS Andres Blanco
LF Jeff Conine
CF Endy Chavez
RF Matt Diaz
DH Ken Phelps

SP David Cone
SP Jon Lieber
SP Jorge de la Rosa
SP Melido Perez
SP Atlee Hammaker
SP Miguel Batista

RP Jeff Shaw
RP Greg Minton

3B Jose Bautista

You shouldn't feel too bad about that one. Four organizations gave up on him within a year, he was only on the Royals for about two weeks that season, and it took him another 5 years or so to turn into a useful player.

1B Greg Jeffries?
2B Jeff Kent
SS Jose Oquendo
LF Jason Bay
CF Amos Otis
RF Nelson Cruz
DH Ken Singleton

SP Nolan Ryan
SP Scott Kazmir
SP Mike Scott
SP AJ Burnett

RP Heath Bell
RP Randy Myers

I'm having trouble filling it in. Hubie Brooks and David Cone had their best seasons after leaving the Mets, but I dont think they count.

I'm having trouble filling it in. Hubie Brooks and David Cone had their best seasons after leaving the Mets, but I dont think they count

Has Scutaro overtaken Oquendo yet in WAR?

2B Jeff Kent

####. I had managed to forget that he was once a Blue Jay. Okay, letting him get away hurt, especially since it resulted in a multi-year showing of the Ed Sprague Experience.

The 1962 Mets had a number of old Dodgers and Giants in an effort to insure some attendance. The Astros went young and improved more quickly.

And the Astros wound up out-drawing the Mets in 1962 anyway.

DB

RP Heath Bell
RP Randy Myers

RP Rick Aguilera

Kevin Mitchell's going to have to be on that team somewhere, too.

Some other Mets to consider:

C - Mike Fitzgerald
1B - Mike Jorgensen
SS - Tim Foli
OF - Kevin Mitchell, Jeromy Burnitz
SP - Kevin Tapani, Steve Renko
RP - Jeff Reardon

Cubs ...

Brock, Palmeiro and Maddux pretty much win this one for us. Lord knows we got great value out of Jenkins but he still had plenty left. We got good value out of Madlock (picked up for Jenkins) but he still had plenty left. Once upon a time, virtually every closer seemed to be an ex-Cub. Oscar Gamble. Joe Carter and Mel Hall weren't great (and we got Sutcliffe in that trade) but they were good. We even had Josh Hamilton for about 15 minutes. We couldn't find a CFer to save our lives but gave away Bill North. Again a perfectly good trade (for Monday) but Holtzman had plenty left. Larry Gura had a number of solid years. Jamie Moyer. Even Sutter had 3 excellent seasons for the Cards.

I won't claim Jenkins because his HOF-ness was with the Cubs but a rotation of

Maddux
Moyer
Holtzman (traded after his age 25 season)
Gura

is about as good as it gets and I'm sure I must be forgetting somebody. An OF of Brock, North, Carter, Hall, Gamble isn't too shabby (I'm not even claiming Hamilton since we never intended to keep him) with Palmeiro at 1B. A bullpen including Sutter, Donnie Moore, Ron Davis and Bill Caudill at least. Oh hey, let's add Eck to the pen since we gave away those years that put him in the HoF (you can take Sutter out I guess). I don't recall us giving away a lot of C or IF (Trillo at age 28 and DeJesus at 29 but I can't exactly complain about the return for DeJesus :-).

Anyway, Brock, Palmeiro, Maddux, Sutter, Jenkins and Eck is a lot of HoF talent to let go of when they still had plenty left even if Maddux is the only obvious dumb-ass move of the bunch.

EDIT: Am I allowed to add late-career Reuschel to the rotation?

I just finished reading Larry Dierker's book a couple of weeks ago, and he makes a similar case to the one Morgan does: The Astros made a number of short-sighted trades in the early 70s, and may have lost a shot at glory because of it.

By the way, Dierker's book is excellent, and I highly recommend it.

In the early 80s, the Phils had three blue chip middle infielders, Sandberg, Franco and Samuel. They managed to keep Samuel. :(

Sandberg and Franco basically netted them Ivan DeJesus and Von Hayes.

A mid-1980s Phillies infield with Schmidt, Franco and Sandberg would have been awesome. Von Hayes actually wasn't bad for a few years in Philadelphia, but I'd have held on to Franco.

A bullpen including Sutter, Donnie Moore, Ron Davis and Bill Caudill at least.

Willie Hernandez also.

I won't claim Jenkins because his HOF-ness was with the Cubs but a rotation of

Maddux
Moyer
Holtzman (traded after his age 25 season)
Gura

is about as good as it gets and I'm sure I must be forgetting somebody.

Joe Niekro?

Gura after he left the Cubs: 123-90 1929 IP 107 ERA+

Niekro: 197-187 3237 IP 99 ERA+.

Back in '62 it was widely reported that the Mets went for old names while Houston went for youth, but a quick check at B-Ref shows the average age of Mets players was about a year younger than the Colt 45s (I checked because I'd read many years ago that the "Mets old, Colts young" was a fallacy). And the Mets were 6th in the NL in attendance that year, Houston 7th.

Also, Rusty Staub went to Montreal in '69, so Joe's recollection is slightly off. But year, those were some unfortunate trades.

Re: racism in the Houston FO, my recollection is that J R Richard's health issues were written off as malingering (essentially "he's just one a them lazy en ceteras"). Until he actually had the stroke.

1B Greg Jeffries?
2B Jeff Kent
SS Jose Oquendo
LF Jason Bay
CF Amos Otis
RF Nelson Cruz
DH Ken Singleton

SP Nolan Ryan
SP Scott Kazmir
SP Mike Scott
SP AJ Burnett

RP Heath Bell
RP Randy Myers

3B Melvin Mora

OF Lenny Dykstra
OF Carl Everett
OF Preston Wilson (although it's hard to complain about that trade)

RP Jason Isringhausen
RP Octavio Dotel (also a pretty good trade)