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Tuesday, September 11, 2012

Justice: Ageless Jeter worthy of MVP consideration

“His defense at short has been terrific, as usual.” There is no justice.

His defense at short has been terrific, as usual. Meanwhile, his Yankees have had at least a share of first place in the AL East for 93 straight days, and now with the stretch run upon us, Jeter is hitting .378 in September.

The case for Jeter is this:

• Doing his job at the top of the lineup spectacularly well.

• Playing nice defense.

• Winning.

• Leadership.

• Being at his best when the pressure is cranked up the most, which is pretty much every day of the year with the Yankees.

...If someone ranked every player the last 100 years in terms of winning, production and citizenship, that is, representing the game the right way, Derek Jeter might be No. 1. He’s pretty much the poster boy for what those of us who love the game would like every player to be.

Repoz Posted: September 11, 2012 at 03:38 PM | 79 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. Lassus Posted: September 11, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4232882)
citizenship

I actually agree that sleeping around is good citizenship, but I'm not sure that's really an overwhelmingly popular definition of the term.
   2. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 11, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4232891)
My God. In one excerpt, they managed to put in stark bullet points why the non-Yankee fan universe hates him.

Which I don't think is logical; the fact that the press corps could use kneepads is not Derek's fault. But the over-the-top celebration of the unmeasurables combined with the non-acknowledgement of the measurables is a bit galling, even for me (a fan).

.324/.367/.449 at 38 is all Justice needed to say.
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4232893)
I used to think Richard Justice wasn't a complete idiot....When did that change?
   4. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4232895)
pass
   5. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4232896)
D'oh.

He is having a good year, though. Funny the writers didn't give him the award in the couple of years he truly deserved it.
   6. Repoz Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4232899)
Yankee fans were lining up on the left of the dial to tell Francesspool today that "Jeter/lifetime MVP Award this year" BS or something. Even Mike waved that nonsense off with..."JETER'S ONLY GOT 50 RBI'S PEOPLE! 50!"
   7. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4232901)
Also, "lifetime MVP" is Hall of Fame, which is a different conversation.
   8. Dale Sams Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4232909)
I used to think Richard Justice wasn't a complete idiot....When did that change?


Oh, this isn't David Justice?
   9. TomH Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4232919)
from the article: "He's part of what appears to be a close race for the AL MVP Award. There's a case to be made for Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera and Josh Hamilton as well. "

This encapsulates what is so annoying about the Jeter-worship. Teammates like Cano get shafted of credit they deserve. Because somehow leadership won more games than Cano's extra doubles, home runs, walks, fewer outs, better defense....


   10. cardsfanboy Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4232928)
This encapsulates what is so annoying about the Jeter-worship. Teammates like Cano get shafted of credit they deserve. Because somehow leadership won more games than Cano's extra doubles, home runs, walks, fewer outs, better defense....


This article talks about Jeter's excellent defense... so from this guys point of view, Jeter's defense is good. From his viewpoint you are comparing a .320 hitting shortstop to a .300 hitting second baseman (with more pop) which is possibly a close race in his mind that gives Jeter the advantage. It's silly of course, but at least from one viewpoint it's defensible.
   11. PreservedFish Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4232943)
Do you think Cano would play a better shortstop than Jeter does?
   12. cardsfanboy Posted: September 11, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4232957)
Do you think Cano would play a better shortstop than Jeter does?


I'm the one who thinks Prince Fielder would play a better shortstop than Jeter does..... (note I don't really think that, I do think that Fielder has better reactions and would get to balls to his immediate left and right better than Jeter, but on slow rollers and pop ups, Jeter would make up for the lack of reaction time with sheer speed)
   13. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: September 11, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4233004)
Being at his best when the pressure is cranked up the most


Well, sure, I guess I can see how --

, which is pretty much every day of the year with the Yankees.


Ah. Shut up.
   14. Cowboy Popup Posted: September 11, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4233031)
I used to think Richard Justice wasn't a complete idiot....When did that change?

I remember this too. I'm thinking it coincided with the Astros not being good any more. He had to resort to nonsense to have something to talk about. I could be completely mistaken though.

Oh, this isn't David Justice?

That was my first thought.

Do you think Cano would play a better shortstop than Jeter does?

I hesitate to make cross position comparisons, but Cano certainly has the arm for SS and he's got better range than Jeter. He's also got excellent range on popups. In another lifetime maybe...
   15. Booey Posted: September 11, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4233039)
Also, "lifetime MVP" is Hall of Fame, which is a different conversation.


Isn't that pretty much what Stargell's MVP in '79 was?
   16. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: September 11, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4233049)
Did Joe Buck write this under a pseudonym?
   17. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 11, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4233058)
He is worthy of MVP consideration. He is not worthy of the actual award.
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: September 11, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4233061)
He is worthy of MVP consideration. He is not worthy of the actual award.


Agreed, down ballot consideration, depending on personal preferences. He should not get one single vote in the top five, but he just might.
   19. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 11, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4233062)
Isn't that pretty much what Stargell's MVP in '79 was?


Stargell's victory (tie actually) was a complete fluke, he received 4 1st place votes, Hernandez 10, Winfield 4, Knight 2, Joe Niekro 1, Tekulve 1, Carter 1, Madlock 1, I'm not sure so many different people have ever gotten 1st place votes in a single year.

The best player was likely Winfield, but the Padres lost 93 games, that basically had half the voters dropping him from any consideration, Hernandez had a tremendous year, but the Cardinals won only 86 games- and were considered to be underachievers- anyway, Hernandez likely beat Winfield because the Cards won 17 more games than the Padres, Knight was a reasonably big story because he was a long tie minor leaguer/bench rider who'd stepped in to fill the GREAT ONE's shoes (Rose) and hit .318 (seriously, 26 year old had NEVER hit at any level, career .251/.314/.354 in the minors, .232/.286/.333 in the majors, basically thrown out by the Reds as a human sacrifice, hit .318/.360/.454 out of nowhere.

There was one other guy who was up there with Winfield/Hernandez in terms of on field value- Schmidt- but he hit .253, plus the Phillie media let everyone know he was a dog, he finished 13th, with the same # of votes as Omar Moreno, the best Pirate was actually Dave Parker, but he'd won the year before, my guess is that if he'd had 100 ribbies he would have won- but he had "only" 94 and finished 10th (he batted 3rd behind Moreno and Foli... which isn't as bad as it sounds, both men had the very best offensive seasons of their respective punchless careers)

Hernandez was a reasonable MVP, 3rd in WAR- within the error bars of the stat for #1... but yikes was that overall vote a mess.
   20. Rob_Wood Posted: September 11, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4233074)

And the 1979 AL MVP vote was not a thing of beauty either!
   21. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: September 11, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4233104)
The ageless Jeter may be worthy of MVP consideration, but this one is 38, and not worthy.
   22. jingoist Posted: September 11, 2012 at 08:14 PM (#4233123)
Cabrera in a cakewalk!
   23. Misirlou is on hiding to nowhere Posted: September 11, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4233125)
"lifetime MVP" is Hall of Fame, which is a different conversation.


When all is said and done, Jeter may replace Ott/Kaline/Murray/whoever, as the greatest player to never have won a MVP.
   24. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 11, 2012 at 08:38 PM (#4233138)
Jeter isn"t likely to get the first 3 spots on anyone's MVP ballot, but he'll deserve a lot of down-ballot consideration, and probably won't be omitted from many ballots. Top 6 adds a bonus to Jeter's option year, and although he doesn't really need the money, I suspect it would be a point of pride to show that the bonus provisions that so many dismissed as empty concessions were achievable at his "advanced" age.
   25. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: September 11, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4233149)
When all is said and done, Jeter may replace Ott/Kaline/Murray/whoever, as the greatest player to never have won a MVP.

Man, Eddie Mathews can't even get noticed on a list of unnoticed guys!
   26. Rob_Wood Posted: September 11, 2012 at 09:34 PM (#4233202)

I was going to mention the overlook of Mathews. His name just does not register with modern fans at all.
   27. Danny Posted: September 11, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4233211)
Jeter isn"t likely to get the first 3 spots on anyone's MVP ballot, but he'll deserve a lot of down-ballot consideration

Only if you pretend he's an average defensive SS.
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: September 11, 2012 at 10:15 PM (#4233232)
Jeter deserves the MVP about as much as I do, but since his winning would quickly thin out the ranks of BTF by about 50%, I'd actually kind of like to see him get it.
   29. base ball chick Posted: September 11, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4233281)
i don't get richard justice writing a piece of crap like this. (except for anything on bud selig) i don't ever remember him writing something this stupid. i've heard richard talk on sports radio, and believe me, he sounds significantly more knowledgeable about baseball than he writes. and he knows damm well that derek jeter is a lousy fielder. he hasn't written that stupidass "leader" crap since biggio/bagwell ran the astros clubhouse with an iron fist.

very hard for me to believe that richard really thinks that jeter is a better MVP candidate than trout or miggy cabrera, and how anyone besides trout deserves the DH league MVP, i don't get
   30. jobu Posted: September 11, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4233323)
I hope Grantland's Derek Jeter's Diary refers to the Justice story. If it does, I'll bet it will say that the word "winning" was not listed as a criterion multiple times.
   31. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 11, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4233328)
If someone ranked every player the last 100 years in terms of winning, production and citizenship, that is, representing the game the right way, Derek Jeter might be No. 1.


Yogi won more pennants and World Series, and he was on the side that won a major war, which should give him some citizenship points. I don't know how to measure leadership. Maybe the Yankees and the Allies beat the Dodgers and Hitler in spite of Berra.
   32. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4233346)
If someone ranked every player the last 100 years in terms of winning . . .

Well, just out of curiosity, what is the record for a position player playing on the winning side in the most MLB games? Might be Jeter, if not now, maybe soon.

EDIT: Quick Google check leads to a Baseball Almanac page listing Carl Yastrzemski as the AL leader with 1718 and Pete Rose the MLB leader with 1972. They are also listed as having participated in the most losses, so perhaps Jeter has a shot at the most games over .500.
   33. JJ1986 Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4233352)
(I think) Jeter has played in 1532 wins. Pete Rose has 1972. Hank Aaron has 1735.
   34. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4233354)
Well, just out of curiosity, what is the record for a position player playing on the winning side in the most MLB games? Might be Jeter, if not now, maybe soon.


Probably someone near the top of the Games Played list, right?
   35. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4233358)
They are also listed as having participated in the most losses, so perhaps Jeter has a shot at the most games over .500.


A shot? I'm sure he's already there. And I think he realistically has a chance to set a record that's never broken. He's already almost 500 games over .500 for his career, and is almost certain to wind up well north of that figure. Eyeballing the games played leaderboard, none of the other likely candidates (Pete, Brooks, Reggie, Chipper) are even 400 games above the break-even mark.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 12:54 AM (#4233359)
Well, just out of curiosity, what is the record for a position player playing on the winning side in the most MLB games? Might be Jeter, if not now, maybe soon.


Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, that is probably the record... Rose is 389. Musial was my next guess and he was only 302 over .500.... Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over. Ruth is missing a few years as a pitcher(which is safe to assume he'll gain ground) and is at 480 games over .500... Lou Gehrig is at 501...it would be funny if that was the record as of a couple of days ago.
   37. Hank G. Posted: September 12, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4233361)
At this point in the season, you could take four Derek Jeters and they wouldn't measure up to one Mike Trout. If Trout doesn't win MVP, it'll be one of the worst picks ever.
   38. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: September 12, 2012 at 01:13 AM (#4233365)
I was going to mention the overlook of Mathews. His name just does not register with modern fans at all.


This. I can't come up with a comp. post WWII player of his caliber with less Q factor.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:06 AM (#4233384)
Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, that is probably the record... Rose is 389. Musial was my next guess and he was only 302 over .500.... Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over. Ruth is missing a few years as a pitcher(which is safe to assume he'll gain ground) and is at 480 games over .500... Lou Gehrig is at 501...it would be funny if that was the record as of a couple of days ago.


Damn, I didn't look below him on the list (in part because I didn't know the full data would be there).

But Jeter has actually been bouncing between the new record and tied with Gehrig for a few games. He's back into a tie after Tuesday's loss. Here's hoping he sinks back below, permanently, on Wednesday.

   40. cardsfanboy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 02:46 AM (#4233389)
Damn, I didn't look below him on the list (in part because I didn't know the full data would be there).

But Jeter has actually been bouncing between the new record and tied with Gehrig for a few games. He's back into a tie after Tuesday's loss. Here's hoping he sinks back below, permanently, on Wednesday.


It really depends on Ruth in my opinion, he's at 480 not counting his first four years in the majors. In his first four years in the majors he played 166 games. He appeared as a pitcher in 121(109 of them starts) and has a won loss record of 67-34.... There is a real possibility he is the all time record holder in games over .500. That leaves 65 games unaccounted for, but as it stands right now, he's at 512 games over .500 until those other games are accounted for. (Note his teams winning percentage during those 4 years was roughly .611, with the worse season being .591) I'm pretty sure Ruth has the record and it's probably in the neighborhood of 525 or so games
   41. GuyM Posted: September 12, 2012 at 08:35 AM (#4233455)
Do you think Cano would play a better shortstop than Jeter does?


2B Assists
Avg AL Team: 400, NYY: 393 (-7)

SS Assists
Avg AL Team: 407, NYY: 344 (-63)

I don't know about Fielder, but Cano? Yes.


   42. Walt Davis Posted: September 12, 2012 at 09:07 AM (#4233476)
the Dodgers and Hitler

Berra didn't play in the 77, 78 or 81 Series. :-)

Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over.

But Berra and the others played in shorter seasons so if Jeter gets the record -- that's right, asterisk baby!

   43. JJ1986 Posted: September 12, 2012 at 09:10 AM (#4233480)
This. I can't come up with a comp. post WWII player of his caliber with less Q factor.


Blyleven probably would have been in the same boat except for the HoF fight.
   44. BDC Posted: September 12, 2012 at 09:13 AM (#4233484)
I'm pretty sure Ruth has the record and it's probably in the neighborhood of 525 or so games

Here's a thought: Mariano Rivera has 608 Saves and 76 Wins, against 58 Losses, in his regular-season career. That's 626 games above .500 in "decisions." I am not sure about the other 309 games he pitched in, but unless the Yankees went worse than about .333 in those games (or my math is Godawful, the likelier assumption), he'd have more above .500 than Ruth.
   45. TomH Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:05 AM (#4233546)
where is Tris Speaker on that list?
   46. cardsfanboy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4233559)
Here's a thought: Mariano Rivera has 608 Saves and 76 Wins, against 58 Losses, in his regular-season career. That's 626 games above .500 in "decisions." I am not sure about the other 309 games he pitched in, but unless the Yankees went worse than about .333 in those games (or my math is Godawful, the likelier assumption), he'd have more above .500 than Ruth.


Didn't think of him, unfortunately the career splits don't work as well with pitchers as it does with hitters in determining that answer.
   47. cardsfanboy Posted: September 12, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4233564)
where is Tris Speaker on that list?
Half his career isn't covered(anything prior to 1917. He's 119 based upon data that is available on bb-ref. (if you look under career splits, they have stat separating stats between losses and wins)
   48. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: September 13, 2012 at 12:08 AM (#4234427)
Half his career isn't covered(anything prior to 1917. He's 119 based upon data that is available on bb-ref. (if you look under career splits, they have stat separating stats between losses and wins)

If you assume his teams have the same record with him as without him (which is dubious for a player of Speaker's caliber, of course), adding his other years gets him 190-200 more games over .500, so he probably clears 300 but isn't going to catch Jeter.

Edit: Same assumption with Honus Wagner gets you about 350 games over .500; he does better if you ignore his Louisville years and the years after he got old and the rest of his team vanished.
   49. cardsfanboy Posted: September 13, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4235084)
I was hoping this thread would have gotten picked up by some of the stat experts around here. I'm pretty sure Ruth or Rivera is the winner, Rivera should be easy to find out, Ruth is only 65 games so it shouldn't be too hard.
   50. Danny Posted: September 14, 2012 at 12:24 AM (#4235437)
The Yankees are 893-158 when Rivera pitches.
   51. TomH Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:10 AM (#4235451)
speaking of Mariano..... ain't it amazing that as the Yankees went from a comfy 10-game lead to a first place tie, that we heard very, very little about the Missing Mo? You absolutely know the media would have been geared up to blame a Yankee collapse on the torn ACL of Uberman if they had lost a few 9th innings contests. But really, how much has the absence of Mariano hurt this team? Nowhere near as much as most prognosticators would have surmised.


   52. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:13 AM (#4235452)
The Yankees are 893-158 when Rivera pitches.


That's 735 over .500, I don't think any position player is ever going to approach that.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:17 AM (#4235453)
That's 735 over .500, I don't think any position player is ever going to approach that.


This whole thing is rigged for closers.
   54. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:16 AM (#4235486)
This whole thing is rigged for closers.

What are numbers for Hoffman, etc.?
   55. BDC Posted: September 14, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4235529)
Cool, Danny, thanks for finding that 735 number. It's possible somebody else has more games over .500, of course, but given that Rivera holds the career records for Saves and Games Finished, and never played for a losing club, it seems much better than an even chance that he's got the >.500 mark.
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:00 AM (#4235531)
What are numbers for Hoffman, etc.?


I don't know how Danny figured out Rivera's record. With Hoffman you have 1035 games, 601 saves and a 61-75 record....That gives you a start of 662-75, with 284 games undecided.....He's at 587 above .500 before those games. If every one of those games were losses he would be at 303, and obviously if every one was a win he would be at 871. He has to be in the running.

This whole thing is rigged for closers.


More accurately "modern day closers"....It's not nearly as fun of an exercise when you remove the names like Ruth, Gehrig and Jeter and start talking about Rivera(who is a great reliever but he's not an inner circle player) and Hoffman.
   57. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:07 AM (#4235537)
Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, that is probably the record... Rose is 389. Musial was my next guess and he was only 302 over .500.... Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over. Ruth is missing a few years as a pitcher(which is safe to assume he'll gain ground) and is at 480 games over .500... Lou Gehrig is at 501...it would be funny if that was the record as of a couple of days ago.


He comes up a bit short of Jeter but Dimaggio was the name I thought of but I got to +481 for him.
   58. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:17 AM (#4235546)
He comes up a bit short of Jeter but Dimaggio was the name I thought of but I got to +481 for him.


I always forget about Dimaggio. I even looked through the Yankee rosters for the 50's to see if I was missing anyone but I never got to the earlier seasons. You can tell I'm not a New Yorker as Dimaggio never enters my mind as one of the all time great Yankees...
   59. AROM Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4235550)
speaking of Mariano..... ain't it amazing that as the Yankees went from a comfy 10-game lead to a first place tie, that we heard very, very little about the Missing Mo? You absolutely know the media would have been geared up to blame a Yankee collapse on the torn ACL of Uberman if they had lost a few 9th innings contests. But really, how much has the absence of Mariano hurt this team? Nowhere near as much as most prognosticators would have surmised.


In the 9th inning, the cost has been nothing. Soriano has only 3 blown saves so far, and even the great Mariano has averaged 4 per season. If it's cost them, it's in the 6th or 7th inning. How many games have the Yankees lost that would have been won if Soriano was there to shut down earlier jams while Rivera waits for the 9th?

But that depends on Soriano's response to his role. If Rivera was healthy, does he give them 59 innings of 14 runs allowed in middle relief? Or does he pitch like last year (18 runs in 20 fewer innings)?
   60. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4235587)
Trevor Hoffman is 787-248 (+539). Better than the position players, not close to Rivera.
   61. Uncle Willy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4235588)
Jeter is now tied with Willie Mays for 10th on the all-time hits list. He's likely to climb a couple more spots next season.

Regarding Rivera - it's funny, but I've almost forgotten about him. It's like he retired at the end of last year. Any news on him coming back in '13?
   62. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 14, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4235603)
But that depends on Soriano's response to his role. If Rivera was healthy, does he give them 59 innings of 14 runs allowed in middle relief? Or does he pitch like last year (18 runs in 20 fewer innings)?


He missed two months last year, and was pretty decent after coming off the DL (one save, 14 holds, and two blown saves in 26 appearances).
   63. TomH Posted: September 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4235609)
I agree with your analysis.... what I was more getting at is, the media focus is ONLY the 9th inning. If the Yanks lose games in inning 6, the press and announcers will likely blame the starter who "didn't go deep enough in the game". :)
   64. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 14, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4235630)
Obviously losing Pettitte hurt more than losing Rivera, but even Pettitte fanboys and talk radio hosts wouldn't dare make that claim.
   65. Cowboy Popup Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4235736)
He missed two months last year, and was pretty decent after coming off the DL (one save, 14 holds, and two blown saves in 26 appearances).

I am of the belief that Soriano intentionally pitches poorly when there isn't a save situation. No amount of numbers or facts can persuade me. I doubt he pitches as well as he has this year in the 7th or 8th.

Still, the bullpen would have been deeper with Mo. Everyone looks worn out these days, Mo definitely would have helped prevent that.
   66. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4235754)
I would like to see it if anyone can find the team W-L records for players. It's on each player's game log (Team Record In Appearances) but that's just one year at a time.

For example, the first guy I suspected, Aaron Fultz, pitched in more losses than wins every year of his career except the last one, for a total record of 187-277. But that took a couple minutes to compile.
   67. Danny Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4235761)
I don't know how Danny figured out Rivera's record.

B-R's Play Index, which I somehow find a reason to use every day.
   68. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4235778)
B-R's Play Index, which I somehow find a reason to use every day.


Thank you. I have been meaning to renew my expired subscription for some time now.
   69. Ron J2 Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4235900)
He is worthy of MVP consideration.


In the sense that Brian Matusz is. I've considered it and said "no"
   70. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4235917)
In the sense that Brian Matusz is. I've considered it and said "no"


Really? if you are a voter and have to put ten names on the ballot, you think Jeter and Matusz deserve the same amount of consideration? I'm pretty sure Jeter is going to deservedly be on about 10+ ballots, I also think Matusz is deservedly going to be on 0 ballots.
   71. Rants Mulliniks Posted: September 14, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4235970)
If I had to fill out a 10-man ballot today, it would look like this

1. Trout
2. Cano
3. Cabrera
4. Beltre
5. Edwin Encarnacion (yes its a homer vote, but without his Bautistaesque emergence, the Jays would be lucky to win 70 games)
6. David Price
7. Hamilton
8. Adam Jones
9. Torii Hunter (having a great yeat totally under the radar)
10. Jeter - just because
   72. TomH Posted: September 14, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4236001)
no arms, eh?
   73. cardsfanboy Posted: September 14, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4236016)
no arms, eh?


Not directed at me, but I find it hard to vote for a pitcher in this day and age, where you are looking at only 220 or so innings. (yes I've heard all the arguments for it, and if there is a standout performance or two, they would certainly make my ballot, but as a general rule, I don't think of pitchers as equally valuable as an everyday position player, in today's game.(In the era of complete games, that was clearly different)
   74. Rants Mulliniks Posted: September 14, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4236029)
no arms, eh?


I have Price on there. I thought about Verlander, but he's the only other one I even considered. As CFB says, unless you're Pedro putting up an ERA+ of better than 200, you need a lot of innings. I realize Detroit's D sucks so maybe I'm penalizing Verlander too much for his higher ERA.
   75. Ron J2 Posted: September 14, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4236053)
#70 The thrust of the article is that Jeter is an MVP candidate, not somebody who deserves a few 6th place votes. Both Jeter and Matusz are as deserving of the actual MVP.

   76. GuyM Posted: September 14, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4236106)
#70 The thrust of the article is that Jeter is an MVP candidate, not somebody who deserves a few 6th place votes

How can we consider a 2-win player to be one of the 6 most valuable players in the AL? Is he even one of the 6 most valuable Yankees?
   77. Ron J2 Posted: September 14, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4236126)
#76 You aren't going to convince some people (including the author of the article in question) that Jeter is a bad defensive player. It's reasonably obvious that Jeter isn't the best position player on the Yankees (for reasons already discussed here), but I can sort of see arguing him #2. Mostly because none of the other regulars is having a great season by their standards (and/or have been hurt)
   78. GuyM Posted: September 14, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4236158)
I think the highest you could rank Jeter would be 4th, behind Cano, Kuroda, and Teixeira. After that, you could argue for almost any ranking among Jeter, Granderson, A-Rod, Swisher, Hughes, and Sabathia.

How that gets you an AL MVP vote, I don't understand....
   79. DKDC Posted: September 14, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4236179)
Matusz has been pretty darn good since he was moved to the bullpen. He’s struck out 11 of the 25 batters he’s faced and allowed just a .410 OPS.

But undeserving comes in degrees, and Matusz winning the MVP would be a bigger injustice/farce/head-scratcher than Jeter by many orders of magnitude.

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