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1. Lassus Posted: September 11, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4232882)I actually agree that sleeping around is good citizenship, but I'm not sure that's really an overwhelmingly popular definition of the term.
Which I don't think is logical; the fact that the press corps could use kneepads is not Derek's fault. But the over-the-top celebration of the unmeasurables combined with the non-acknowledgement of the measurables is a bit galling, even for me (a fan).
.324/.367/.449 at 38 is all Justice needed to say.
He is having a good year, though. Funny the writers didn't give him the award in the couple of years he truly deserved it.
Oh, this isn't David Justice?
This encapsulates what is so annoying about the Jeter-worship. Teammates like Cano get shafted of credit they deserve. Because somehow leadership won more games than Cano's extra doubles, home runs, walks, fewer outs, better defense....
This article talks about Jeter's excellent defense... so from this guys point of view, Jeter's defense is good. From his viewpoint you are comparing a .320 hitting shortstop to a .300 hitting second baseman (with more pop) which is possibly a close race in his mind that gives Jeter the advantage. It's silly of course, but at least from one viewpoint it's defensible.
I'm the one who thinks Prince Fielder would play a better shortstop than Jeter does..... (note I don't really think that, I do think that Fielder has better reactions and would get to balls to his immediate left and right better than Jeter, but on slow rollers and pop ups, Jeter would make up for the lack of reaction time with sheer speed)
Well, sure, I guess I can see how --
Ah. Shut up.
I remember this too. I'm thinking it coincided with the Astros not being good any more. He had to resort to nonsense to have something to talk about. I could be completely mistaken though.
Oh, this isn't David Justice?
That was my first thought.
Do you think Cano would play a better shortstop than Jeter does?
I hesitate to make cross position comparisons, but Cano certainly has the arm for SS and he's got better range than Jeter. He's also got excellent range on popups. In another lifetime maybe...
Isn't that pretty much what Stargell's MVP in '79 was?
Agreed, down ballot consideration, depending on personal preferences. He should not get one single vote in the top five, but he just might.
Stargell's victory (tie actually) was a complete fluke, he received 4 1st place votes, Hernandez 10, Winfield 4, Knight 2, Joe Niekro 1, Tekulve 1, Carter 1, Madlock 1, I'm not sure so many different people have ever gotten 1st place votes in a single year.
The best player was likely Winfield, but the Padres lost 93 games, that basically had half the voters dropping him from any consideration, Hernandez had a tremendous year, but the Cardinals won only 86 games- and were considered to be underachievers- anyway, Hernandez likely beat Winfield because the Cards won 17 more games than the Padres, Knight was a reasonably big story because he was a long tie minor leaguer/bench rider who'd stepped in to fill the GREAT ONE's shoes (Rose) and hit .318 (seriously, 26 year old had NEVER hit at any level, career .251/.314/.354 in the minors, .232/.286/.333 in the majors, basically thrown out by the Reds as a human sacrifice, hit .318/.360/.454 out of nowhere.
There was one other guy who was up there with Winfield/Hernandez in terms of on field value- Schmidt- but he hit .253, plus the Phillie media let everyone know he was a dog, he finished 13th, with the same # of votes as Omar Moreno, the best Pirate was actually Dave Parker, but he'd won the year before, my guess is that if he'd had 100 ribbies he would have won- but he had "only" 94 and finished 10th (he batted 3rd behind Moreno and Foli... which isn't as bad as it sounds, both men had the very best offensive seasons of their respective punchless careers)
Hernandez was a reasonable MVP, 3rd in WAR- within the error bars of the stat for #1... but yikes was that overall vote a mess.
And the 1979 AL MVP vote was not a thing of beauty either!
When all is said and done, Jeter may replace Ott/Kaline/Murray/whoever, as the greatest player to never have won a MVP.
Man, Eddie Mathews can't even get noticed on a list of unnoticed guys!
I was going to mention the overlook of Mathews. His name just does not register with modern fans at all.
Only if you pretend he's an average defensive SS.
very hard for me to believe that richard really thinks that jeter is a better MVP candidate than trout or miggy cabrera, and how anyone besides trout deserves the DH league MVP, i don't get
Yogi won more pennants and World Series, and he was on the side that won a major war, which should give him some citizenship points. I don't know how to measure leadership. Maybe the Yankees and the Allies beat the Dodgers and Hitler in spite of Berra.
Well, just out of curiosity, what is the record for a position player playing on the winning side in the most MLB games? Might be Jeter, if not now, maybe soon.
EDIT: Quick Google check leads to a Baseball Almanac page listing Carl Yastrzemski as the AL leader with 1718 and Pete Rose the MLB leader with 1972. They are also listed as having participated in the most losses, so perhaps Jeter has a shot at the most games over .500.
Probably someone near the top of the Games Played list, right?
A shot? I'm sure he's already there. And I think he realistically has a chance to set a record that's never broken. He's already almost 500 games over .500 for his career, and is almost certain to wind up well north of that figure. Eyeballing the games played leaderboard, none of the other likely candidates (Pete, Brooks, Reggie, Chipper) are even 400 games above the break-even mark.
Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, that is probably the record... Rose is 389. Musial was my next guess and he was only 302 over .500.... Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over. Ruth is missing a few years as a pitcher(which is safe to assume he'll gain ground) and is at 480 games over .500... Lou Gehrig is at 501...it would be funny if that was the record as of a couple of days ago.
This. I can't come up with a comp. post WWII player of his caliber with less Q factor.
Damn, I didn't look below him on the list (in part because I didn't know the full data would be there).
But Jeter has actually been bouncing between the new record and tied with Gehrig for a few games. He's back into a tie after Tuesday's loss. Here's hoping he sinks back below, permanently, on Wednesday.
It really depends on Ruth in my opinion, he's at 480 not counting his first four years in the majors. In his first four years in the majors he played 166 games. He appeared as a pitcher in 121(109 of them starts) and has a won loss record of 67-34.... There is a real possibility he is the all time record holder in games over .500. That leaves 65 games unaccounted for, but as it stands right now, he's at 512 games over .500 until those other games are accounted for. (Note his teams winning percentage during those 4 years was roughly .611, with the worse season being .591) I'm pretty sure Ruth has the record and it's probably in the neighborhood of 525 or so games
2B Assists
Avg AL Team: 400, NYY: 393 (-7)
SS Assists
Avg AL Team: 407, NYY: 344 (-63)
I don't know about Fielder, but Cano? Yes.
Berra didn't play in the 77, 78 or 81 Series. :-)
Jeter has 502 games over .500 for his career, Yogi Berra was my next guess, he's at 437 over.
But Berra and the others played in shorter seasons so if Jeter gets the record -- that's right, asterisk baby!
Blyleven probably would have been in the same boat except for the HoF fight.
Here's a thought: Mariano Rivera has 608 Saves and 76 Wins, against 58 Losses, in his regular-season career. That's 626 games above .500 in "decisions." I am not sure about the other 309 games he pitched in, but unless the Yankees went worse than about .333 in those games (or my math is Godawful, the likelier assumption), he'd have more above .500 than Ruth.
Didn't think of him, unfortunately the career splits don't work as well with pitchers as it does with hitters in determining that answer.
If you assume his teams have the same record with him as without him (which is dubious for a player of Speaker's caliber, of course), adding his other years gets him 190-200 more games over .500, so he probably clears 300 but isn't going to catch Jeter.
Edit: Same assumption with Honus Wagner gets you about 350 games over .500; he does better if you ignore his Louisville years and the years after he got old and the rest of his team vanished.
That's 735 over .500, I don't think any position player is ever going to approach that.
This whole thing is rigged for closers.
What are numbers for Hoffman, etc.?
I don't know how Danny figured out Rivera's record. With Hoffman you have 1035 games, 601 saves and a 61-75 record....That gives you a start of 662-75, with 284 games undecided.....He's at 587 above .500 before those games. If every one of those games were losses he would be at 303, and obviously if every one was a win he would be at 871. He has to be in the running.
More accurately "modern day closers"....It's not nearly as fun of an exercise when you remove the names like Ruth, Gehrig and Jeter and start talking about Rivera(who is a great reliever but he's not an inner circle player) and Hoffman.
He comes up a bit short of Jeter but Dimaggio was the name I thought of but I got to +481 for him.
I always forget about Dimaggio. I even looked through the Yankee rosters for the 50's to see if I was missing anyone but I never got to the earlier seasons. You can tell I'm not a New Yorker as Dimaggio never enters my mind as one of the all time great Yankees...
In the 9th inning, the cost has been nothing. Soriano has only 3 blown saves so far, and even the great Mariano has averaged 4 per season. If it's cost them, it's in the 6th or 7th inning. How many games have the Yankees lost that would have been won if Soriano was there to shut down earlier jams while Rivera waits for the 9th?
But that depends on Soriano's response to his role. If Rivera was healthy, does he give them 59 innings of 14 runs allowed in middle relief? Or does he pitch like last year (18 runs in 20 fewer innings)?
Regarding Rivera - it's funny, but I've almost forgotten about him. It's like he retired at the end of last year. Any news on him coming back in '13?
He missed two months last year, and was pretty decent after coming off the DL (one save, 14 holds, and two blown saves in 26 appearances).
I am of the belief that Soriano intentionally pitches poorly when there isn't a save situation. No amount of numbers or facts can persuade me. I doubt he pitches as well as he has this year in the 7th or 8th.
Still, the bullpen would have been deeper with Mo. Everyone looks worn out these days, Mo definitely would have helped prevent that.
For example, the first guy I suspected, Aaron Fultz, pitched in more losses than wins every year of his career except the last one, for a total record of 187-277. But that took a couple minutes to compile.
B-R's Play Index, which I somehow find a reason to use every day.
Thank you. I have been meaning to renew my expired subscription for some time now.
In the sense that Brian Matusz is. I've considered it and said "no"
Really? if you are a voter and have to put ten names on the ballot, you think Jeter and Matusz deserve the same amount of consideration? I'm pretty sure Jeter is going to deservedly be on about 10+ ballots, I also think Matusz is deservedly going to be on 0 ballots.
1. Trout
2. Cano
3. Cabrera
4. Beltre
5. Edwin Encarnacion (yes its a homer vote, but without his Bautistaesque emergence, the Jays would be lucky to win 70 games)
6. David Price
7. Hamilton
8. Adam Jones
9. Torii Hunter (having a great yeat totally under the radar)
10. Jeter - just because
Not directed at me, but I find it hard to vote for a pitcher in this day and age, where you are looking at only 220 or so innings. (yes I've heard all the arguments for it, and if there is a standout performance or two, they would certainly make my ballot, but as a general rule, I don't think of pitchers as equally valuable as an everyday position player, in today's game.(In the era of complete games, that was clearly different)
I have Price on there. I thought about Verlander, but he's the only other one I even considered. As CFB says, unless you're Pedro putting up an ERA+ of better than 200, you need a lot of innings. I realize Detroit's D sucks so maybe I'm penalizing Verlander too much for his higher ERA.
How can we consider a 2-win player to be one of the 6 most valuable players in the AL? Is he even one of the 6 most valuable Yankees?
How that gets you an AL MVP vote, I don't understand....
But undeserving comes in degrees, and Matusz winning the MVP would be a bigger injustice/farce/head-scratcher than Jeter by many orders of magnitude.
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