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Friday, September 13, 2019

Justin Verlander, Gerrit Cole put on the greatest pitching show in baseball

“What they are doing is amazing, probably the best duo in baseball history,” Astros All-Star second baseman Jose Altuve said.


Koufax/Drysdale
Spahn/Sain
Mathewson/McGinnity
Johnson/Schilling

Others in the conversation?  Altuve just might be correct.

And how does Verlander’s loss yesterday impact the CY race?

Lest we forget Posted: September 13, 2019 at 03:35 AM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, gerrit cole, great baseball players, verlander

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. JL72 Posted: September 13, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5878887)
Verlander went 6 innings, with 3 ER and 11 Ks. It didn't help him, but I don't think it really hurt him either. He still leads the league in IP, ERA and ERA+. It gives Cole more of an opening, but he still needs to do a bit of work.

JV is also now only 19 Ks from 3,000. Houston has 12 more games, so I presume Verlander has two more starts. 19 Ks seems doable.
   2. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: September 13, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5878929)
Okay, I'll play:

Clarkson/Radbourn of the late 1880s Beaneaters.

Or Clarkson/Nichols a couple years later. (Although they only had two and a half years of overlap.)
   3. Mefisto Posted: September 13, 2019 at 01:09 PM (#5878942)
Marichal (2800 IP at 132) and Perry (2300 IP at 119)
   4. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 13, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5878948)
Maddux + Glavine/Smoltz depending on which year you're looking at

Clemens + Pettitte (and Oswalt) that year in Houston where all 3 were pretty awesome

Halladay + Cliff Lee (and Hamels) in 2011 is up there in terms of single-season greatness

But yeah in my memory it's hard to beat Johnson/Schilling for those couple of seasons they finished 1-2 in the Cy Young Award voting (and won World Series co-MVPs).
   5. GregD Posted: September 13, 2019 at 02:02 PM (#5878956)
This 2015 SI piece on the Kershaw/Greinke combo has a fun chart of single-season duos. As of right now, Verlander-Cole would be just off the top 25 (2nd pitcher with minimum 5 WAR) they ran for combined WAR (but would climb in barring total collapse.) Hard to imagine anyone touching Johnson-Schilling.

That said, the Astros staff is amazing to watch. And sickening, as an As fan (even though the As just won three in a row against them.)
   6. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 13, 2019 at 02:11 PM (#5878963)
in the link in #5, Johnson-Schilling are #1 and 2 in combined WAR for a single season; but #3 was listed as "Bradley-Wood, CHW 1971" WHO??? Tom Bradley who managed to come up with 6.2 WAR for a 15-15 season with an ERA+ of 122
   7. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: September 13, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5878967)
Re: the Astros' staff. It's not Verlander+Cole that's sickening, it's that they've got Greinke too. That's three, legit, #1 aces. They're older, and won't be together as long, but that's Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine territory. (I mean, Cole has a ways to go career-wise, but for now he's looking pretty good.)
   8. Davo Posted: September 13, 2019 at 02:42 PM (#5878976)
Man, just saw today they each have a shot at 300 Ks this year. Had no idea!
   9. GregD Posted: September 13, 2019 at 03:23 PM (#5878984)
Re: the Astros' staff. It's not Verlander+Cole that's sickening, it's that they've got Greinke too. That's three, legit, #1 aces. They're older, and won't be together as long, but that's Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine territory. (I mean, Cole has a ways to go career-wise, but for now he's looking pretty good.)
If you give them credit for Greinke's whole year, you get

Verlander 7.3
Cole . 5.5
Greinke 5.0

I haven't seen a decision on what they'll do with their staff over the last 14 games. They have the division all but cinched and are 2 behind the Yankees for best in AL

But worth noting that Houston isn't even in tops in the state this year for a pitching duo. Rangers have them beat handily in BBRef WAR --total of 14.7 for top 2 though no one to add anything worthwhile for a three man chart
   10. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 13, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5878989)
Others in the conversation?


Walter Johnson pitching alone.
   11. salvomania Posted: September 13, 2019 at 03:42 PM (#5878991)
In 1969 Bob Gibson and Steve Carlton put up 17.3 bWAR for the Cardinals (pitching only).

Granted, Gibson put up 10.4 of those, but 6.9 bWAR out of Carlton ain't too bad.

And both pitchers batted better than .200, adding another combined 1.3 bWAR to their total, for 18.6.
   12. Itchy Row Posted: September 13, 2019 at 05:04 PM (#5879012)
Wrong thread
   13. Walt Davis Posted: September 13, 2019 at 05:24 PM (#5879016)
Bill Hands 300 IP, 8.4 WAR
Fergie, 311 IP, 7.2 WAR

That was 42% of the team's innings out of two guys. (1969 by the way) The next year, those two plus Holtzman all topped 5 WAR, 18.9 WAR total, Pappas tossed in another 4 WAR. In 71, Fergie went nuts with 10 WAR and Pappas added 5.8.

Hands had an interesting career. Looking at his minors record, looks like he got hurt at 21 and 23. He dominated AAA at 25 (2.19 ERA, 200 IP, 7.1 K/9 I'm guessing was pretty good) and got a cup of coffee. Cubs got him and Hundley in exchange for Lindy McDaniel and Don Landrum. Landrum had 112 very bad PA left in his career but McDaniel was a very good reliever and put up another 12 WAR (mostly not for the Giants though).

1966 was not good as he bounced in and out of the rotation. He was in the pen for most of 67 but had an excellent season and was moved into the rotation at the end.

Then from 1968-1972, 1255 IP, 24 WAR.

Then in seemingly a bad trade, they sent him to the Twins for Dave LaRoche (a Lindy McDaniel clone). But ... pitchers. He was poor in the first half of 73 and got sent to the pen. He was atrocious in April 74 and got sent to the pen then the Rangers. He was good for the first half of 75, then missed three weeks and was terrible when he came back. And that was it. Still that end run amounted to 380 innings of average pitching by bWAR.
   14. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: September 13, 2019 at 07:04 PM (#5879044)
Got three more:

1940 Kyojin (Giants)

Victor Starfin 436 innings at a 0.97 ERA
Hiroshi Nakao 347 innings at a 1.76 ERA

It was a low-scoring league, but that's pretty good. And they're both hall of famers.

You could go with the Giants from 1943:

Hideo Fujimoto 432 innings at a 0.79 ERA
Victor Starfin 136 innings at a 1.19 ERA

Or maybe the 1962 Hanshin Tigers:

Minoru Murayama 366 innings at a 1.22 ERA
Masaaki Koyama 352 innings at a 1.62 ERA

Yes, sure, Japan has had some low-scoring leagues. The 1962 Central League had an ERA of 2.63. But I'm not up for figuring out Japanese ERA+s, so I'll just highlight some impressive raw stats.
   15. Sweatpants Posted: September 13, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5879053)
In 1944 Hal Newhouser won 29 games and the MVP award, but most advanced stats would rank teammate Dizzy Trout as the best pitcher in the league.

Pedro Martinez and Derek Lowe each won 20 with an ERA+ over 170 for the 2002 Red Sox.

Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee had nearly identical numbers in 2011: 233.2 IP/163 ERA+ for Halladay, and 232.2 IP/160 ERA+ for Lee. B-R WAR has them as easily the two best pitchers in the National League and in fact ranks them as the league's two most valuable players overall.

If I had to pick a best one-year Braves duo from their run, I'd go with Maddux and Glavine in 1998. Glavine wasn't quite as good in 1995, but the '95 version of that tandem might have been better just because of Maddux's historically great season.
   16. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 14, 2019 at 10:25 AM (#5879096)
"Bradley-Wood, CHW 1971" WHO??? Tom Bradley who managed to come up with 6.2 WAR for a 15-15 season with an ERA+ of 122


“Wood” is Wilbur Wood, a left-handed knuckleballer. He had an interesting career, he spent several years and teams trying to find his way then wound up with the White Sox where he was an elite reliever for three years, then became a starter who made over 40 starts five years running then faded away fairly quickly. When I first read your post I figured 1971 was the 376 inning season but that was 1972.
   17. TomH Posted: September 14, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5879099)
Even more amazing, Wood's 1972 of 376.2 IP; he lost maybe three starts to the short strike in the spring; the White Sox missed 8 games. Wood started 49 of their 154. Prorated, he has 396 (!) IP.
   18. Lest we forget Posted: September 14, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5879110)
Garrit Cole put on a show Friday evening.

- He will lead the majors in K's
- He's in a position to break the record for K/IP - good narrative stuff
- He significantly closed the gap in the 'ERA crown' race
- He is within 1 win of Verlander for best in the AL
- He may pull of the pitching Triple Crown - Wins, K's, and ERA

I didn't see this coming at all. I've been touting Verlander for the last two months, and now this. WHIP & WAR not withstanding.

It's gonna be a 'start by start' CY stretch drive!
   19. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 14, 2019 at 03:25 PM (#5879126)
Even more amazing, Wood's 1972 of 376.2 IP; he lost maybe three starts to the short strike in the spring; the White Sox missed 8 games. Wood started 49 of their 154. Prorated, he has 396 (!) IP.


The 1972 White Sox basically used a three-man rotation of Wilbur Wood/Stan Bahnsen/Tom Bradley, with Dave Lemonds mixed in whenever they had a doubleheader.

From 1971 to 1975, Wood averaged 45 starts a year. The string only came to an end when he broke his kneecap early in the 1976 season.

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