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Wednesday, October 16, 2013

Kallet: Arrogant, Unlikable Yasiel Puig Plays The Game The Wrong Way

Figured this was about Cano…but the Yankes, like…

He’s cocky. He’s arrogant. He’s extremely unlikable.

And he doesn’t play the great game of baseball the right way, the way it’s supposed to be played.

Who am I talking about? You know who. I’m talking about Dodgers right fielder Yasiel Puig.

...But he also garnered attention for not hustling. He consistently dogged plays in the outfield and didn’t bust it out of the box. Much more often than not, Puig got away with these no-nos because he’s extraordinarily gifted. He can usually afford to take plays off or make unwise decisions and not see the consequences of his actions.

It didn’t bother me too much during the regular season, I’ll admit. But what the 22-year-old did on Monday night in Game 3 of the National League Championship Series absolutely disgusted me as a lifelong baseball fan.

...First of all, act like you’ve been there — even though he hasn’t. What’s happened to the days of Paul O’Neill hitting a home run and immediately putting his head down as he began jogging around the bases? (He did that as a rookie, by the way; not just as a 15-year MLB veteran.) Oh, and when Mets outfielder Jordany Valdespin pulls the same garbage as Puig he’s labeled a troublemaker and a bad teammate. Why? It’s simple, really: because he’s a bad player. So because Puig has talent he gets a free pass, and is in fact embraced for his antics? Think about that for a second. It’s completely hypocritical.

Call me old-school and old-fashioned. Call me too conservative. Tell me to “get with the times.” Whatever. The bottom line is that you don’t show up the opposing pitcher and you don’t “pimp out” a home run. It’s disrespectful and it’s a bad look, and anybody who has ever played the game at a high level knows that those “unwritten rules” we hear so much about actually have merit and are worth something.

...Just stop with the excuses, people. He lived in Cuba all of his life and is just having fun playing in America! That’s my favorite excuse. The last I checked, he can still have plenty of fun, be a celebrity, play baseball for millions of dollars and be loved by the masses without playing like a fool.

Another excuse: If you don’t want him to act like this, then don’t let him beat you. Really? That’s the rationale? So let me get this straight. If one person defeats another person — in any profession — then that person has every right to act like a jerk? Laughable.

Repoz Posted: October 16, 2013 at 06:36 AM | 120 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers

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   1. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:07 AM (#4574111)
Why do newspapers employ as baseball writers people who clearly hate baseball?
   2. Bug Selig Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:13 AM (#4574113)
Kallet: "Arrogant, Unlikeable Yasiel Puig Plays The Game The Wrong Way - Except that he plays it well enough that he has a $42m contract to do so and doesn't give 2 shits what I say or think, and that really offends me."
   3. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:23 AM (#4574119)
Arrogant, Unlikable Old Man Writes Newspaper Column The Wrong Way



Seen it before, and I'll see it again. Ain't worth losing sleep over.
   4. Jeltzandini Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:32 AM (#4574120)
You're old school! You need to "get with the times!"
   5. Oscar Geronimo Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:50 AM (#4574121)
Please don't link to these articles - they're complete link/click bait and will make Google think the site in question is an authority on the subject.
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:51 AM (#4574122)
What’s happened to the days of Paul O’Neill hitting a home run and immediately putting his head down as he began jogging around the bases?


Wait. He's holding up Paul O'Neill as a positive example of how to conduct yourself on a baseball field?

The Paul O'Neill I remember was a petulant ####### who never saw a strike zone he couldn't whine about. He broke bats and threw helmets and flipped over Gatorade jugs like a two-year-old whenever he didn't get his way on the field, because his parents apparently never taught him how to behave in public.
   7. zonk Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:00 AM (#4574126)
Wait. He's holding up Paul O'Neill as a positive example of how to conduct yourself on a baseball field?


My thought exactly.

You know, once upon a time, I was rather worried that I'd become a grumpy old man screaming at clouds... but more and more, I am hopeful that I'm going to be more like Andy or Harvey when it comes to baseball... appreciating the past, but not having a whole lot of time for the fairy tales of youth where all the players were genteel superheroes who only played the game 'the right way', while the current crop is nothing but rotten apples.
   8. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:04 AM (#4574127)
You know, once upon a time, I was rather worried that I'd become a grumpy old man screaming at clouds... but more and more, I am hopeful that I'm going to be more like Andy or Harvey when it comes to baseball... appreciating the past, but not having a whole lot of time for the fairy tales of youth where all the players were genteel superheroes who only played the game 'the right way', while the current crop is nothing but rotten apples.


I think the classic Onion piece "In my day, ballplayers were for ####." needs an update.
   9. rpackrat Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:12 AM (#4574129)
Wait. He's holding up Paul O'Neill as a positive example of how to conduct yourself on a baseball field?


When white guys do it, it shows grit and passion. When black or latino guys do it, it's arrogant and cocky.
   10. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4574134)
When white guys do it, it shows grit and passion. When black or latino guys do it, it's arrogant and cocky.


I wish I could say that's a ridiculous and unfair statement, but...
   11. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:28 AM (#4574135)
I think there are some things Puig needs to tone down a bit but man is this over the top.

I thought he showed a lot of maturity last night. You know he wanted to charge the mound but he didn't and then kept himself cool enough to get a big hit.
   12. Flynn Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:38 AM (#4574140)
I wish I could say that's a ridiculous and unfair statement, but...


I think it would be more ridiculous and unfair to say that race isn't a factor in stuff like this. The way so many middle-aged white guys get a hair across their butt whenever a person of color gets uppity on the field of play is really f*cking annoying.
   13. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:41 AM (#4574141)
I think there are some things Puig needs to tone down
So I listened to a bit of the ESPN Radio coverage on the ride home last night from work, and the announcers were making a great point about Puig:

If he did the same things in football or basketball, no one would say a word; in fact, his "antics" would probably be seen as kind of reserved. Why do people get so wound up about emotion on the baseball field? Aren't they allowed to have fun?

   14. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 16, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4574146)
I'm fine with him having fun, my issue is with the mental mistakes he makes. Not running the other night, missing cutoff men, base running blunders. The emotion is fine but I think sometimes it costs him and his team. Like I said, full credit for NOT letting the emotions get to him after the brushback pitch.
   15. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:03 AM (#4574151)
I love watching Puig play, but of course I loved watching Manny play as well.

People getting offended over what Puig does really need to be offended more often.
   16. zonk Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4574152)
My line is the same as Jose.... Having seen the extreme with Zambrano, I actually loved big Z's fire and emotion... until it reached the point where he was fist-fighting with teammates or lighting himself on fire on the mound (and then choking up a five spot as the wheels came off).

By all means, celebrate, show emotion... just don't let it get you tossed out on the bases, cost your team a run, etc.
   17. GregD Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:19 AM (#4574163)
He is impossible to root for, so the Dodgers should do their fans a favor and dump him on one of my favorite teams
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:22 AM (#4574165)
The other thing about Paul O'Neill is that on top of having terrible sportsmanship, he always looked miserable on the field. He had two emotions: angry because he was happy and didn't know how to express it, and angry because he was sad and didn't know how to express it.

Whatever you think of Puig, at least he looks like he's having fun out there.
   19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4574168)
Call me old-school and old-fashioned. Call me too conservative. Tell me to “get with the times.”


You're old school, old-fashioned, and too conservative. Get with the times. How could anyone said Puig is unlikeable? He's a treat to watch and his enthusiasm is infectious.
   20. bunyon Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4574169)
I think Puig is great and a lot of fun to watch. That said, if he doesn't grow and mature, I'll be disappointed. It's one thing for a 22 year old rookie to make some of the mental mistakes he makes, and it's cool because he's so physically talented he can still be a big plus making them. But he's got the talent to be a real great and not just an entertaining very good. I hope he can grow as a ballplayer without losing the joy and emotion he displays. I see no reason why he couldn't.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:31 AM (#4574173)
Are there examples of guys who came up with the reputation of being "cocky" and a "punk who doesn't respect the game" who matured and were later thought of as a statesman of the game?

I would say Griffey fits in that category. Probably a lot of super-duper stars who were good at a young age.
   22. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4574177)
#21 Roberto Clemente would be a pretty good example of a guy who would "overcome" a reputation of a cocky player to become a venerate saint of the game of baseball and icon to playing the game the right way by the same writers who hated him when he came up
   23. Howie Menckel Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:37 AM (#4574179)

"If he did the same things in football or basketball, no one would say a word; in fact, his "antics" would probably be seen as kind of reserved."

I have no idea what you're talking about, so maybe some examples would help. I know that if a player celebrated a free throw after he threw it toward the basket, and it did not in fact go in, I would say he looked like an idiot. Same for players who celebrate TDs only to fumble or get tackled before they reach the goal line.

Celebrating a result that winds up not actually happening makes you look like an idiot in every sport...

   24. GregD Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4574180)
Dave Parker was seen as too cool for school and too flashy (among other things!) and became by the end the voice of Willie Stargell, clubhouse leader/clubhouse lawyer

Was Griffey Jr's rep that bad? He was too exuberant and too "Nike" but a "punk"? I don't remember that but may have just not paid attention to the professional grouches
   25. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4574187)
Was Griffey Jr's rep that bad? He was too exuberant and too "Nike" but a "punk"? I don't remember that but may have just not paid attention to the professional grouches

He would take batting practice with his cap on backwards, which offended the delicate sensitivities of the "Back in my day" generation of writers back in the day.
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4574189)
willie mays was as flashy as flashy can be relative to his time and i think the only person who had an issue was red barber because mays actions caused him to momentarily leave his dull robotic being and exhibit human emotion. barber instantly recovered but never forgave mays for triggering that brief crossover into the sentient world

   27. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:49 AM (#4574191)
Griffey wearing his cap backwards in BP was a major deal, and would have been a lot bigger an issue and spawned articles like this had the internet existed.

####< - cokes.
   28. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:51 AM (#4574194)
Dave Parker was seen as too cool for school and too flashy

Yeah, but in Parker's too cool for school days, there wasn't a media infrastructure dedicated to identifying and pre-packaging the latest in "edge" and "swag" for the masses. That's pretty much my problem with the Puigs of the world -- I don't believe in the sincerity of their personas and acts, and their acts have become stale and boring.

   29. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4574199)
I don't believe in the sincerity of their personas and acts, and their acts have become stale and boring.

this summary applies to posters on this site
   30. nick swisher hygiene Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:01 AM (#4574203)
13, 21-- baseball's special status as symbol of American oldtime values is what enables this grumpiness.....other sports are "entertainment"; baseball gets selective immunity from this concept.

lots of of older guys who basicalyy dislike the present are baseball fans.
   31. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4574206)
having grown up in an time with no electric fans much less air conditioning, sleeping on a mattress stuffed with corn husks, drinking somewhat brown water and wearing clothes that itched i am a BIG FAN OF THE 21ST CENTURY!!!

   32. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4574216)
I think Puig is great and a lot of fun to watch. That said, if he doesn't grow and mature, I'll be disappointed. It's one thing for a 22 year old rookie to make some of the mental mistakes he makes, and it's cool because he's so physically talented he can still be a big plus making them. But he's got the talent to be a real great and not just an entertaining very good. I hope he can grow as a ballplayer without losing the joy and emotion he displays. I see no reason why he couldn't.

Exactly. It's completely reasonable to criticize him for, say, over-aggressive base-running, missing the cutoff man, etc. These are all actual mistakes that can actually hurt his team, and it's unlikely he'd ever try to improve without that criticism. (Well, assuming the criticism is coming from his manager and teammates. I can't imagine he cares what old sportswriters think.)
   33. Charles S. will not yield to this monkey court Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4574223)
Oh, and when Mets outfielder Jordany Valdespin pulls the same garbage as Puig he’s labeled a troublemaker and a bad teammate. Why? It’s simple, really: because he’s a bad player. So because Puig has talent he gets a free pass, and is in fact embraced for his antics? Think about that for a second. It’s completely hypocritical.


We've seen the grumpy old man routine in a million columns, but this part is what bugs me. Has this guy never worked in an organization in his life? There is no company in America where talent will not get you a pass. The top sales guys get away with more than the crappy ones. The best actors/actresses get away with more. The best writers get away with more. If you have more skill, you can get away with more "antics". That's not hypocritical, it's the way the world works.
   34. dave h Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:20 AM (#4574226)
I don't know Harveys past what he posts here, and I doubt I agree with everything he says, but man I want to be like him when I grow up.
   35. Dale Sams Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:21 AM (#4574229)
I hope tonight that every single Tigers player stands at home plate for a good 8 seconds and then does cartwheel down the basepaths until he's thrown out.

And by the way...I have to wonder how much Bull Durham's "Run dummy!!" has affected the mindset of certain grouchy players.
   36. Russ Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:22 AM (#4574230)
Why do people get so wound up about emotion on the baseball field? Aren't they allowed to have fun?


#whitepeople
   37. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4574232)
i think the only person who had an issue was red barber because mays actions caused him to momentarily leave his dull robotic being and exhibit human emotion.


"Raybot, I am your prototype."

-- Red Barber to Raybot
   38. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4574233)
That's not hypocritical, it's the way the world works.


Everything you say is true but it IS hypocritical. Doesn't change the fact that it is the way the world works but it is definitely hypocritical.
   39. bunyon Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4574236)
having grown up in an time with no electric fans much less air conditioning, sleeping on a mattress stuffed with corn husks, drinking somewhat brown water and wearing clothes that itched i am a BIG FAN OF THE 21ST CENTURY!!!

People really need to read more history. The past was no picnic.
   40. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:33 AM (#4574241)
Why do people get so wound up about emotion on the baseball field? Aren't they allowed to have fun?

#whitepeople


I think it was With Leather, but they had a funny mock exchange after the amazing Jerome Simpson flip for a TD.

Me: Wow, that was an amazing play!
Grandpa: I don't see why he has to showboat like that.
Me: Wha, but he had to flip over the defender to get in the end zone.
Grandpa: In my day, a player acted like he had been there before. If a guy acted like that, he'd get popped in the mouth.
Me: It was an amazing feat of athletic performance. He did what he had to do to score.
Grandpa: I'm just saying I don't like all them black fellers showboating.
   41. Ron J2 Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM (#4574243)
When I grow up I want to be like Harveys*

*I'm 57. But then my mom was 70 and talked about "old people" -- and didn't include herself.
   42. Charles S. will not yield to this monkey court Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4574248)
Everything you say is true but it IS hypocritical. Doesn't change the fact that it is the way the world works but it is definitely hypocritical.

It's only hypocritical if you claim that the rules are, or should be, the same for everyone.
   43. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:41 AM (#4574252)
People really need to read more history. The past was no picnic.

what's tremendous is that everything becomes new and hip again

20 years ago i loved my bacon and lard and gin and Sinatra and johnny cash and everyone rolled their eyes

now bacon is a science, you have restaurants devoted to using lard, there are gin tastings i am told, and all manner of Sinatra wanna bes while johnny cash had a movie and all kinds of new attention

so mocking world of 1993---IN YOUR FACE
   44. base ball chick Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4574253)
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 07:51 AM (#4574122)
What’s happened to the days of Paul O’Neill hitting a home run and immediately putting his head down as he began jogging around the bases?


Wait. He's holding up Paul O'Neill as a positive example of how to conduct yourself on a baseball field?

The Paul O'Neill I remember was a petulant ####### who never saw a strike zone he couldn't whine about. He broke bats and threw helmets and flipped over Gatorade jugs like a two-year-old whenever he didn't get his way on the field, because his parents apparently never taught him how to behave in public.


- THIS!!!!

seriously, paulie poo as a GOOD example? jeezus gawd, if they want to point to someone who Did Things The Right Way and were careful to show no emotion whatsoever good or bad, they should point to bagwell or biggio, who called this "professionalism"

the reason that "showboating" is fine with football or basketball is that it is played most ly by n*****s and you know how Those People are when they are not shown The Way To Behave by Old Boring White Guys

and maybe i am disremembering but seems to me i remember a video of ted williams hitting a walkoff or his last homer or an ASG homer and celebrating as he passed first base. then again, BITGOD, ted williams was a Bad Example of a ballplayer, wasn't he? i forget what he did so bad, but the sportswriters knew ALL about it


Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4574206)
having grown up in an time with no electric fans much less air conditioning, sleeping on a mattress stuffed with corn husks, drinking somewhat brown water and wearing clothes that itched i am a BIG FAN OF THE 21ST CENTURY!!!


- the reason harvey sez wild and crazy stuff like this is because unlike other "conservatives" he didn't grow up rich and privileged.

some people like to look at The Past with this enormous filter in their minds like it wasn't true that a few very rich White men ran everything with their bought politicians and most people who were born into poverty had very little chance of getting out of it

   45. Dale Sams Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4574254)
so mocking world of 1993---IN YOUR FACE


It's allright...I'm gonna bring back sideburns and Caesar haircuts and MAKE IT SEXY.
   46. Charles S. will not yield to this monkey court Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4574257)
some people like to look at The Past with this enormous filter in their minds like it wasn't true that a few very rich White men ran everything with their bought politicians and most people who were born into poverty had very little chance of getting out of it

So it was just like now.
   47. dave h Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4574258)
20 years ago i loved my bacon and lard and gin


If you liked all of those things in the same glass you would have been well ahead of your time.
   48. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:48 AM (#4574259)
dave

i get a lot of odd looks because while i greatly enjoy olives my garnish preference in a martini is/are mushrooms.

   49. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:49 AM (#4574263)
Read The Better Angels of Our Nature. You'll truly appreciate the modern world.
   50. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4574268)
Jeez, it's really tough to distinguish between showboating after the fact, and showboating when the fact in still in play and you might have cost your team an out, a run, or even the game. The only things that matter are that Puig's having fun, that the sportswriter is an old fart, and that if a white player had done this it would've been shrugged off.** Welcome to BTF.

**It's a well known, BB-Reference documented fact that no white players have ever been called out for lack of hustle.
   51. base ball chick Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4574274)
Charles S., annoyingly insightful Posted: October 16, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4574257)

some people like to look at The Past with this enormous filter in their minds like it wasn't true that a few very rich White men ran everything with their bought politicians and most people who were born into poverty had very little chance of getting out of it

So it was just like now.


- now it is true that a Black woman, actually self made, not with inherited/married money, is one of the richest people in america, and there are a few people who are not european=americans on that richest list, but best i can tell, it is still true

and of course politicians are the same pile of shtthead puppets for the rich they always been

- and now, you see a lot of dark skinned athletes, unlike, say, 60 years ago. but otherwise....
   52. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4574287)
if a white player had done this it would've been shrugged off.**


I think darker skin attracts more attention from sportswriters, but I do believe Bryce Harper has gotten some of this same flak.
   53. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4574293)
#38: It's not hypocritical at all. People get paid to do their job. If you aren't doing your job well, people are going to get annoyed by things they see as related to your failure to do your job. If you do your job well people are--rightly--less apt to be annoyed by things that could conceivably lead to your failure to do your job but do not in fact lead to a failure to do your job
   54. Harlond Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4574295)
Wait. He's holding up Paul O'Neill as a positive example of how to conduct yourself on a baseball field?

The Paul O'Neill I remember was a petulant ####### who never saw a strike zone he couldn't whine about. He broke bats and threw helmets and flipped over Gatorade jugs like a two-year-old whenever he didn't get his way on the field, because his parents apparently never taught him how to behave in public.
Good thing Puig didn't kick the baseball while it was in play.
   55. pthomas Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4574301)
When Puig first came up I was shocked at how awful he looked on the field, as if he was completely unschooled in the finer points of baseball. And you could also see how massively talented he is. ( Even Vin Scully started to point out where he should have hit the cut-off man, and various baserunning errors). The umpires took an immediate dislike to being showed up, too. Rookies do not get to show up umpires, and he rarely got a call in his favor.

But, I had to give him credit: he did adjust and improve on these issues as the summer wore on. So, still a work in progress. And, yeah, the bat flip and hand raising triple was hilarious, but dozens of other players have done it, (black and white) but only made a double out of it.
   56. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4574309)
I prefer the #HotSportsTakes version.
Remember: It was just a few short weeks ago the Dodgers made fools of themselves parading through Arizona's swimming pool to celebrate their playoff berth.

It made everyone look bad.

It was lewd. It was crude.

It was everything the Los Angeles Dodgers have stood for all year long. Back in August, Puig was asked to speak to the media and said, "[Expletive] the media" and told all of us journos to perform a sexual act. This is the postseason "hero"?

This team may have the most expensive roster in the league and all kinds of money to spare, but it can't buy baseball's respect. It can't buy my silence, either.
   57. SoSH U at work Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4574313)
Good thing Puig didn't kick the baseball while it was in play.


Just what I was thinking. And, like Puig's play last night, it was not smart, potentially (far more) damaging to his team's chances - and awesome.

   58. ColonelTom Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4574314)
Puig is must-see TV, and he looks like he's having a blast out there. I'm okay with this.
   59. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4574321)
It's early, so I first read "the wrong way" as meaning he wore his glove on the wrong hand or he'd been using ice skates instead of baseball shoes. That would have made him more likable, and eventually, with a little coaching to fix those fundamental wrongs, an even better player.
   60. Danny Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4574332)
I'm sensing a pattern with this guy.
   61. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2013 at 11:55 AM (#4574338)
Am I the only one that's noticed how hard Puig busts out of the box? He chooses times to strut and admire himself, but when he's hustling he is REALLY hustling. When he hits routine singles he rounds first base at a hundred miles per hour just in case the tiniest slip up can allow him to go to second.
   62. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4574345)
he'd been using ice skates instead of baseball shoes
That was Lonnie Smith.
   63. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4574349)
#60: "These guys" need to "know their place."

Back of the team jet only, fellas
   64. Howie Menckel Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4574350)

"Jeez, it's really tough to distinguish between showboating after the fact, and showboating when the fact in still in play and you might have cost your team an out, a run, or even the game."

yes, the desperate attempts to conflate the two on several of these threads is amusing. there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun," and even stupid plays are now supposed to be celebrated as youthful exuberance.

it would be more interesting to see a nuanced conversation about celebrations that DON'T have anything to do with potentially costing your team due to your own showboating. that's a perfectly reasonable topic where reasonable people could certainly differ, and maybe some minds might even be changed. I don't have a strong stand on which demonstrations are harmless and which are showboating, but would be interested to hear thoughts on where people find that line to be, and how.

but this place isn't usually big on nuance. better to drag a topic into an easy punching-bag target, however little sense it might make....

   65. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4574358)
I prefer the #HotSportsTakes version.


I love HotSportsTakes.

Every now and then, we will attempt to write the worst sports column on Earth.


That is brilliant.
   66. SandyRiver Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4574370)
the reason that "showboating" is fine with football or basketball is that it is played most ly by n*****s and you know how Those People are when they are not shown The Way To Behave by Old Boring White Guys


IMO, it has more to do with the "old boring white guys" than skin color ratios. (And I'm an OBWG.) If memory serves, the acting out in the NBA/NFL really got going in the 1970s, about when the '60s generation became a significant segment of the players. However, those leagues had only become truly relevant about a decade or so earlier, the NFL with the Colts/Giants OT game, the NBA probably with the Russell v. Chamberlain battles. Baseball had by then been "The National Pastime" for over half a century, with the accompanying moss-covered "rules of the game" that Must Be Respected, things that the NBA/NFL had not really developed (perhaps to their benefit.)
   67. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4574372)
there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun,"

It's strange, because the sabermetric enterprise of recording and picking and obsessing over every little thing and the down-to-the-last-decimal-point "value" of every last base, and getting your double-entry bookkeeping charts and WAR lists perfectly precise is about as old-fartish an exercise as can possibly be imagined.(*) And then perfectly harmless, fun baseballey things like thinking certain players are "clutch hitters" are roundly denounced by many of the very same people.

So old farts, young and old -- heal thyselves.

(*) Whether done in the comfort of mom's basement or otherwise.

   68. puck Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4574374)
The 1st post said it. There should be a BTF tag for the sentiment.
   69. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4574376)
It was everything the Los Angeles Dodgers have stood for all year long. Back in August, Puig was asked to speak to the media and said, "[Expletive] the media" and told all of us journos to perform a sexual act. This is the postseason "hero"?


As if there weren't enough reasons already to love Puig.
   70. Jose Molina wants a nickname like "A-Rod" Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4574386)
Ugh. Really. STFU.
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 16, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4574387)
"Jeez, it's really tough to distinguish between showboating after the fact, and showboating when the fact in still in play and you might have cost your team an out, a run, or even the game."

yes, the desperate attempts to conflate the two on several of these threads is amusing. there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun," and even stupid plays are now supposed to be celebrated as youthful exuberance.

it would be more interesting to see a nuanced conversation about celebrations that DON'T have anything to do with potentially costing your team due to your own showboating. that's a perfectly reasonable topic where reasonable people could certainly differ, and maybe some minds might even be changed. I don't have a strong stand on which demonstrations are harmless and which are showboating, but would be interested to hear thoughts on where people find that line to be, and how.


I'm honestly at a loss as to why anyone can't understand the difference between exuberance and stupidity, or between "loafing" when it doesn't have a prayer of affecting the outcome of a play, and "loafing" when it costs the team an out or worse.

Puig's boneheaded play was a perfect example of stupidity. Anyone who cares about baseball should have been calling him out on this, but for the stupidity, not the exuberance. Many players go over the top with exuberance or in-your-faceism, but when they're doing it after the play has ended it enters into the realm of theology rather than baseball, and I'd think that those two realms are distinct.

-----------------------------------------------------

there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun,"


It's strange, because the sabermetric enterprise of recording and picking and obsessing over every little thing and the "value" of every last base, and getting your double-entry bookkeeping charts perfectly precise is about as old-fartish an exercise as can possibly be imagined.(*)

It is, but then irony is often overlooked as well as engaged in by the young.
   72. Srul Itza Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4574397)
Call me old-school and old-fashioned. Call me too conservative.


Nah. "Asshole" is faster and will do just fine.
   73. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4574404)
yes, the desperate attempts to conflate the two on several of these threads is amusing. there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun," and even stupid plays are now supposed to be celebrated as youthful exuberance.

it would be more interesting to see a nuanced conversation about celebrations that DON'T have anything to do with potentially costing your team due to your own showboating. that's a perfectly reasonable topic where reasonable people could certainly differ, and maybe some minds might even be changed. I don't have a strong stand on which demonstrations are harmless and which are showboating, but would be interested to hear thoughts on where people find that line to be, and how.

but this place isn't usually big on nuance. better to drag a topic into an easy punching-bag target, however little sense it might make....


How's this for nuance: Maybe the conversations about Puig aren't focused solely on that one play.
   74. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4574411)
From Joe Sheehan's recent newsletter:

...We've had a yearlong discussion of what constitutes acceptable behavior on a baseball field. It's tired. The various moral codes that some people are so heavily invested in enforcing are outdated and actively work against the marketing of baseball in the 21st century. Whereas the game itself is zero-sum -- a hit for is a hit against -- the joy it creates is not. So when Yasiel Puig gets excited about hitting a triple and expresses that, it doesn't actually do anything to the player he hit it off. You got beat, sir; if you'd like to not see that joy expressed, don't get beat.

Baseball isn't the military, despite the wishes of many that it have that same level of paternalism. Let's stop encouraging that idea. Let's embrace the next thing. Let's encourage joy and, in doing so, make explicit the idea that one man's celebration doesn't "show up" anyone else. You're a highly-paid professional who is among the top 1,000 people in the world at what you do; maybe whining should be below you.


   75. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4574419)
The Paul O'Neill comparison actually isn't as ridiculous as it's being made out to be. O'Neill's "thing" was that he was a whiner and threw a temper tantrum when he made an out, especially when he struck out. Whatever the problem with that - and I agree it was rather silly and unprofessional - it's wholly different from Puig's "issue," which is that he celebrates excessively when he does something good. Whether one thinks Puig's celebrations are a problem or not, the contrast to O'Neill is apt in the sense that O'Neill didn't celebrate.
   76. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4574421)
it would be more interesting to see a nuanced conversation about celebrations that DON'T have anything to do with potentially costing your team due to your own showboating. that's a perfectly reasonable topic where reasonable people could certainly differ, and maybe some minds might even be changed. I don't have a strong stand on which demonstrations are harmless and which are showboating, but would be interested to hear thoughts on where people find that line to be, and how.


I think this is maybe a more interesting discussion - maybe because I sadly haven't seen Puig daily to get a real sense of him as a player. I think a lot of what might be considered showboating is really a case-by-case basis - it depends on the guy and the spirit in which it's happening. Back when I played actual competitive baseball, there was one guy we played who loudly congratulate himself in the third person when he got hits, which was pretty funny, and he was generally a charming guy. He could have insulted us on his way around the bases and it would have been ok. Another guy was just a total dick, and basically anything he did was irritating. Just the way he wore his uniform made me want to punch him in the face. It really depends on the guy and the situation.
   77. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4574423)
My read on the celebrations is: it's silly, but, whatever. It's sillier to whine about it.

In football, celebrating after a touchdown is one thing. But they celebrate after first down runs and sacks and routine tackles. Really?

When Stephen Vogt hits a triple and busts a move standing next to Miguel Cabrera, a great player and an MVP who is quiet in his approach, it looks really cartoonish.
   78. SG Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4574424)
How can a weighted random number generator be unlikable?
   79. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4574426)
As Mattingly noted, at least one of the Cardinals pitchers went crazy after a big strikeout. Mattingly didn't get upset. So for the Cardinals to whine about Puig is... whiney.
   80. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4574430)
Whether one thinks Puig's celebrations are a problem or not, the contrast to O'Neill is apt in the sense that O'Neill didn't celebrate.


Indeed, O'Neill never did anything to give the sense that he understood the idea of happiness or enjoyment on even a conceptual level.

I still don't understand, however, why someone would believe that's a good thing.
   81. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4574436)
"If he did the same things in football or basketball, no one would say a word; in fact, his "antics" would probably be seen as kind of reserved."
I have no idea what you're talking about, so maybe some examples would help. I know that if a player celebrated a free throw after he threw it toward the basket, and it did not in fact go in, I would say he looked like an idiot. Same for players who celebrate TDs only to fumble or get tackled before they reach the goal line.

Celebrating a result that winds up not actually happening makes you look like an idiot in every sport...
Um, I have no idea what YOU'RE talking about.

Puig celebrated because he thought he hit a HR that didn't quite go out, so OK your comparison OK so far...except that he still got a triple out of it, one that still scored the 2nd run of a game the Dodgers absolutely needed to win. So it would be like a guy celebrating a missed a 3 point basket, fighting for the rebound, and putting it in for 2 points instead in a close post-season game.

He isn't one of the first 1000 MLB players to celebrate a HR that wasn't, but I'm guessing fewer than 5 of still ended up on 3rd.
   82. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4574438)
Indeed, O'Neill never did anything to give the sense that he understood the idea of happiness or enjoyment on even a conceptual level.

I still don't understand, however, why someone would believe that's a good thing.


I think there's a type of frustrated old guy who would rather see other people struggle and be angry than appear to be enjoying themselves. My guess is that they aren't very happy themselves, and they relate more to unhappy people. Or they come from a generation where it was less acceptable to express any non-anger emotion.
   83. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4574439)
Indeed, O'Neill never did anything to give the sense that he understood the idea of happiness or enjoyment on even a conceptual level.

I still don't understand, however, why someone would believe that's a good thing.


Act like you're not surprised that you did something good. Act like you're a professional.

It's not my issue so I don't care what players do. But to my mind a spontaneous and natural and reasonably brief and subdued expression of enjoyment is fine. Pump your fist, raise your fist, hold both arms up, smile, whatever. Where it gets silly is doing a whole breakdancing routine, as we see so often in football even after a freaking first down.
   84. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4574443)
Puig's boneheaded play was a perfect example of stupidity.
If you're talking about the non-HR, you must be the author of the linked article.

Puig's play wasn't "boneheaded" or "a perfect example of stupidity". He prematurely celebrated a HR, but still got a triple out of it - in fact, this supposed "boneheaded" play, this "perfect example of stupidity", cost the Dodgers....nothing. Not a run, not an out, not a base, not a strike, not even a pitch.

That's what's getting lost here in all of the sanctimonious chest-beating - there was absolutely nothing about the outcome of the play that negatively affected the team one whit.
   85. Dudefella Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4574445)
#64:
"Jeez, it's really tough to distinguish between showboating after the fact, and showboating when the fact in still in play and you might have cost your team an out, a run, or even the game."

yes, the desperate attempts to conflate the two on several of these threads is amusing. there's a pinata for "old guys forget what it's like to have fun," and even stupid plays are now supposed to be celebrated as youthful exuberance.


I think that the consensus on the other "Yasiel Puig is the worst affront to the game ever" thread was that yes, celebrating a potential line drive HR that didn't actually clear the fence made him look kinda dumb, but that it was also pretty awesome that he made it in for a triple standing up.

And that's about where I fall. And I start to get on the "old guys forget what it's like" etc. when they seem determined to harp on the first part -- i.e., he shouldn't have celebrated his HR -- while either ignoring the second part -- i.e., holy ####! standup triple! -- or telling everyone else that they shouldn't be excited by an exciting play.
   86. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 16, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4574446)
Don't think for a moment that the scribes complaining about Puig's showboating wouldn't been all over him had hustled out of the box but been thrown out going for an ITPHR. That's just how those writers work.
   87. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4574472)
As Mattingly noted, at least one of the Cardinals pitchers went crazy after a big strikeout. Mattingly didn't get upset. So for the Cardinals to whine about Puig is... whiney.


And as pointed out in the other thread, the whining is being overblown by the blogosphere.
   88. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4574479)
Act like you're not surprised that you did something good. Act like you're a professional.

It's not my issue so I don't care what players do. But to my mind a spontaneous and natural and reasonably brief and subdued expression of enjoyment is fine. Pump your fist, raise your fist, hold both arms up, smile, whatever. Where it gets silly is doing a whole breakdancing routine, as we see so often in football even after a freaking first down.
I don't disagree with you, but most NFL fans LOVE IT, and every time the NFL institutes rules to try to rein in celebrations, they're derided as the "No Fun League".
   89. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4574489)
From the link in #60:
Play the game like Pete Rose, Wade Boggs and George Brett used to.
This is the same Pete Rose that was constantly ridiculed for running to 1st after a walk, because he was "showing up" the pitcher.

Unless he means Pete Rose Jr., in which "playing like Pete Rose" means playing like the worst player in MLB history - -2 Rbat in just 16 PA, -2 Rfield in just 17 2/3 defensive innings.
   90. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4574491)
Also, I just noticed the "unlikable" in the headline.

Unlikeable? I love the guy! He's my favorite Dodger in ages.
   91. fra paolo Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4574502)
Before the playoffs started, I wrote somewhere on this site that I didn't think the Dodgers had many likable players. Exhibit A for this view was Puig and exhibit B was Adrian Gonzalez, whose face strikingly reminds me of someone else and it is rather disconcerting to see AG's oft-sour expression where I would normally see smiles and laughter.

While I like to see players, nay people, enjoying themselves at their work, I think this can be easily conveyed through smiles at moments of success, followed by respectful gestures such as clapping one's hands or placing one's hand on the other chap's shoulder while giving a firm handshake, and saying praiseful words like 'Congratulations, my dear fellow' or 'Well done, old thing.' Of course, the 'cooler' fellows might shake their head in feigned astonishment and say something like 'I was glad to see I could still hit one out the infield.'

Now, I realise the modern sort, who has benefited from an 'education' that neglects the appreciation of Juvenal or Thomas Love Peacock, needs instructions from the scoreboard to 'Make some noise' in order to cheer the home nine. In this context, the excessive gyrations of a character like Puig are really required to inform these viewers that, indeed, the player is having fun out there, despite the fact that modern technology's ability to show close-ups would in fact allow the more astute the ability to lip-read such expressions as the praiseful words suggested above.

Or, as Wallbangers put it above
"willie mays was as flashy as flashy can be relative to his time".

   92. nick swisher hygiene Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4574515)
30,31--hey, harveys, you didn't think I meant you back there didja?

as for the race thing, I guess....

is it direct, obvious, conscious racism? mostly not.

but, is there an IMPLICIT racism in baseball's invocations of a hazy, rural small-town real American past? mostly yes!

   93. Monty Posted: October 16, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4574556)
Puig's exuberance is awesome, and I enjoy it even when it manifests as more celebration than baseball usually has. He's a 22-year-old rookie. He'll calm down. Celebrating the non-HR was dumb, but it led to a baseball moment I very much enjoyed.

Calling him "unlikable" is stupid. It's obviously possible to like him; I'm doing it right now.
   94. bjhanke Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4574562)
I know nothing about Puig's character or showboating, but his doubling up of John Jay by catching a none-too-easy liner and throwing to first was a hell of a play for a rookie. Puig may be a jerk, but he can play himself some outfield defense. (PS - I am a Cardinal fan) - Brock Hanke
   95. zenbitz Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4574572)
I'm torn about this article because the only thing I hate more than self-important windbag sportswriters ######## about "playing the game the right way" are the LA Dodgers.
   96. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4574581)
I'm torn about this article because the only thing I hate more than self-important windbag sportswriters ######## about "playing the game the right way" are the LA Dodgers.


Don't think of this as a Dodger, but instead a future Angel....

Ultimately though the windbag aspect, is trumped by the player. This is one of those times that I fully support the "If you never played the game at this level, stfu."

Mind you, I probably wouldn't care what the players say either.
   97. Howie Menckel Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4574593)

"there was absolutely nothing about the outcome of the play that negatively affected the team one whit."

but it's dumb as soon as the mistake is made. it's not only dumb if he doesn't score - it's dumb. whether it wound up being costly is a different issue.

if someone walks in traffic without looking and is lucky enough to not be hit by a car, he hasn't negatively affected his physical wellbeing one bit. but it's still an idiotic thing to do.

   98. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4574594)
Am I the only one that's noticed how hard Puig busts out of the box? He chooses times to strut and admire himself, but when he's hustling he is REALLY hustling. When he hits routine singles he rounds first base at a hundred miles per hour just in case the tiniest slip up can allow him to go to second.

He thinks homer on a triple and double on a single.
   99. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4574604)
but it's dumb as soon as the mistake is made. it's not only dumb if he doesn't score - it's dumb. whether it wound up being costly is a different issue.


I agree, it's dumb and fans of the team he plays for, has a legitimate right to gripe about it... I don't think anyone else does. His opponents should be happy for that, fans of other teams should be happy for it. Fans of human beings, should be happy to see a professional allowing emotions to override his professional training.

The people who need to just take a chill pill are the ones who imagine that there was a time in history, that elite athletes didn't occassionally show up the opposition. I mean we have heard stories about Satchel Paige telling his fielders to go into the dugout while he struck out the side etc... it's always been like this, and it's a good thing. 20 years from now, Puig's triple will still be remembered for the feat of athleticism it truly was, and nobody is going to bemoan his hop.... I mean the most famous homerun of all time is Fisk walking down the line willing a ball fair.... If he was a true professional, wouldn't he have just ran and let the coaches and umps tell him about it?
   100. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 16, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4574621)
I'm torn about this article because the only thing I hate more than self-important windbag sportswriters ######## about "playing the game the right way" are the LA Dodgers.


Cosign.
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