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Monday, March 12, 2012

Kansas City Royals All-Star Mike Sweeney Endorses Santorum for President

Forgive me for posting this.

The Rick Santorum for President campaign is proud to announce that it has received the endorsement of All-Star Major Leaguer Mike Sweeney.

Mike Sweeney said: “I take great pride in the success I’ve had on the baseball field, but even greater satisfaction in knowing that I have spent my entire life embracing Godly principles and instilling these values into the everyday lives of my children, family and friends. After personally getting to know Rick Santorum, I am absolutely convinced that he is the only candidate in the 2012 Presidential race that shares these same core values! The moral decline of our great country must stop now and this can only be achieved through real leadership and real solutions. I believe Senator Santorum has the wisdom, passion and vision to bring our country back to global excellence with those core Christian beliefs that our Founding Fathers envisioned, including protecting the rights of the unborn child, in mind.  This election is the most important in my lifetime and as a father, husband, and American I am proud to play on Rick Santorum’s team!”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM | 2194 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4078875)
Got a robo-call last night -- I gather that the primary is tomorrow here in Alabama, not that I vote (a) Republican or (b) period -- featuring Philip Rivers' endorsement of Santorum. "Rivers" & "Santorum" in the same sentence is an extremely off-putting concept.
   2. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4078879)
Sweeney's #s at his peak epitomize the sillyball era: .333/.407/.523 was good for a 131 OPS+ in 2000. 131!

Konerko hit .312/.393/.584 in 2010 and had a 160 OPS+.
   3. Dale Sams Posted: March 12, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4078882)
those core Christian beliefs that our Founding Fathers envisioned


Slavery, no votes for women, electoral voting over popular voting...expecting most elections to be thrown to the House of Reps...
   4. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4078886)
Sweeney's #s at his peak epitomize the sillyball era: .333/.407/.523 was good for a 131 OPS+ in 2000. 131!
Who coined the phrase "sillyball"? Is that a Walt Davis thing? In any case, I really like it as a descriptor and hope it catches on.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4078887)
no votes for women, electoral voting over popular voting...expecting most elections to be thrown to the House of Reps...

Pretty sure Christianity is mute on the subject of representative gov't.
   6. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4078892)
Lots of Christians have been entirely non-mute on the subject, both pro- and con, using explicitly Christian arguments. Whether "Christianity" has anything to say on the subject depends on how you define "Christianity".

It's certainly going to be very hard to differentiate the "Christian" and "non-Christian" beliefs envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

Anyway, Sweeney's comment is not meant to be coherent. It's identitatarian. He identifies himself as a particular stripe of Christian conservative to other Christian conservatives.
   7. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4078894)

Pretty sure Christianity is mute on the subject of representative gov't.


OPS+, too.
   8. Dale Sams Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4078895)
Hasn't the majority of Presidents (jus askin) religious beliefs been along the lines of, "Ugh. Religion...oh, uh, yeah, I go to church. Yes, yes. God. Give me that bible to swear on. OKAY. Let's get this country administrating thing goin!"
   9. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4078903)
It's certainly going to be very hard to differentiate the "Christian" and "non-Christian" beliefs envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

It's actually very easy. They were deists or non-believers themselves but thought Christianity was very effective in inculcating the republican virtues they believed were indispensible to the success and longevity of the republic they conceived. While not buying in to Christ's divinity and the miracles, they believed Jesus's moral philosophy to be both profound and beneficial.
   10. johnseal Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4078904)
But who is Luke Scott endorsing???
   11. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4078905)
I always kind of liked Sweeney as a player, so it's disappointing to see him endorse someone like Santorum.
   12. JRVJ Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4078908)
Primey for 7, though one does have to admit that Jesus walked a lot.....
   13. Swedish Chef Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4078910)
OPS+, too.

Sure, the number of the beast makes far more sense as ERA+.
   14. zonk Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4078911)
Hasn't the majority of Presidents (jus askin) religious beliefs been along the lines of, "Ugh. Religion...oh, uh, yeah, I go to church. Yes, yes. God. Give me that bible to swear on. OKAY. Let's get this country administrating thing goin!"


Most - but certainly not all - the Founders did... Ben Franklin maintained "pews" in several big Philadelphia churches of different denominations - it was good for business.

I think it's interesting that in fact, the Virginia delegation tended to be the hotbed of deism (as a direct competitor to contemporary Christianity)... Thomas Paine famously was, and I think there have been compelling cases made that Jefferson and Washington may well have been unadmitted deists. Madison, I think, was also thought to be a deist sympathizer, if not a deist himself.
   15. Dale Sams Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4078913)
Primey for 7, though one does have to admit that Jesus walked a lot.....


Done at 33 though, kinda fell apart at the end. Disowned by his own team.
   16. JRVJ Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4078916)
Side comment: I had to go to pre-baptism class last Saturday, since one of my best friends asked me to be his kids Godfather.

I was shocked at some of the wacky stuff said by the people giving the class. At a minimum, some of what they said got very close to Nestorism ("God sent his Son to us", without any of the "JC is part of the Trinity, you know" stuff) and Zoroastrism ("In the end there will be a battle between Light and Darkness, and the Light will prevail").

What shocked me was that this was being read from an official church book.

I guess being a lapsed, Latin AMerican Catholic means that I'm not up on much of what's going on, but I heard none of this wacky stuff in 2003 and 2005, when I had my son and daughter baptized (respectively).

Oh, and also, nobody seems to remember the Holy Ghost, also part of the Godhead/Trinity.

Odd.
   17. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4078925)
Side comment: I had to go to pre-baptism class last Saturday, since one of my best friends asked me to be his kids Godfather.


Never thought about it before, but I gather that the practice of naming godparents is basically Catholic & Catholic-derivatives (Episopalian, Presbyterian, probably others not coming to mind at the moment). I ask that simply because, like so many things (Lent, I'm looking at you!) that seem pretty commonplace, I never encountered the concept during a Southern Baptist upbringing.
   18. DL from MN Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4078929)
Jesus walked a lot.....


Carried a big stick too
   19. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4078934)
But on defense, it's like He's got holes in His hands.
   20. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4078935)
Odd.


Who would ever have believed that official religious doctrine could be either incoherent or inconsistent?
   21. tshipman Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4078937)
I have no idea why this thread was posted given the stated goal of no political threads until the changeover.

There are two people named in the headline. Does anyone give two shits about Mike Sweeney anymore? (I mean, I'm sure he's a lovely person and all, but hardly newsworthy).
   22. zonk Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4078940)
I have no idea why this thread was posted given the stated goal of no political threads until the changeover.


What happens after the changeover?

Am I going to be registered as a libertarian against my wishes?
   23. Jittery McFrog Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4078941)
But on defense, it's like He's got holes in His hands.


True, but he's not afraid to put his body on the line and take one for the team.
   24. JPWF1313 Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4078944)
I guess being a lapsed, Latin AMerican Catholic means that I'm not up on much of what's going on, but I heard none of this wacky stuff in 2003 and 2005, when I had my son and daughter baptized (respectively).

Oh, and also, nobody seems to remember the Holy Ghost, also part of the Godhead/Trinity.

Odd.


They introduced a new English translation of the latin Missal.. and it's a complete ###########, absolutely terribly written, I don't know how well the translators understand Latin but I swear to god none of them are remotely proficient at English.
Where the meaning of the texts has not been actually changed- the wording has been changed to become much more cumbersome and awkward. Amazingly they have taken many passages whose English renderings are somewhat old and made them positively antiquated, for the apparent reason of? There is no readily apparent reason.

Guess No. 1: They actually wanted to change something, something specific, without calling attention to that one specific thing- so they buried it in a mass of very visible but meaningless changes.

Guess No. 2: They've been kicking around updating the vernacular for quite sometime, the people tasked with doing it had no special aptitude, (none really) for this type of work, but were high enough up in the Vatican hierarchy to be insulated from such concerns, more to the point when work product drafts began circulating they immediately engendered intense criticism [FROM INSIDE THE CHURCH]- but alas this is an institution that bit by bit has become less tolerant of dissent and criticism year by year (and considering where they were starting from that says something)- the knee-jerk reaction to internal dissent was immediate, "we were not asking for opinions, this has already been finished and approved, you are to implement, period."

A priest I know told my wife that when the Missal changes were given to them,, he and dozens of others called the Bishop's office, where they were told don't bother, The Bishop agrees with them, the changes are both horrible and pointless- but they have to implement them, and by the way, you can't tell anyone what you really think about this... (yes this particular priest has become increasingly disillusioned over the past few years- and I'm pretty sure my wife is not the only person he's told things he's no supposed to)


   25. SoSH U at work Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4078952)
This will end abruptly.

   26. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4078953)
True, but he's not afraid to put his body on the line and take one for the team.

That's because He's a proven comeback player.
   27. zonk Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4078959)
This will end abruptly.


That's what she said.
   28. Walt Davis Posted: March 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4078962)
No milk and cookies reference yet?

I am proud to play on Rick Santorum’s team!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Is that a Walt Davis thing?

Not that there's anything wrong with that either! (I probably stole it, but I use it all the time.)

Done at 33 though, kinda fell apart at the end. Disowned by his own team.

Jesus = Dick Allen!

It's always been obvious yet I'd never noticed before. Allen even had a nice little resurrection at 34.
   29. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4078965)
Primey for 7, though one does have to admit that Jesus walked a lot.....

It didn't matter if he was on land or water either.

Oh, and also, nobody seems to remember the Holy Ghost, also part of the Godhead/Trinity.

Out of sight, out of mind?

And like Dodger fans, he couldn't hang for more than three hours.

I'm surprised Jim's server wasn't hit by lighting when either of 15 or 19 was posted.

   30. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4078966)
I for some reason initially always think Mike Sweeney was the one who was married to Tawny Kitaen, although I realize almost immediately that I'm wrong, until I think it the next time.
   31. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4078967)
Does anyone give two shits about Mike Sweeney anymore?


Yes.
   32. Stevens Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4078970)
Jesus = Dick Allen!

Dick Allen could hit a curveball. Before he became President of the United Allstate of America, Pedro Cerrano assured me that Jesus could not.
   33. Bob Evans Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4078971)
Allen even had a nice little resurrection at 34.

I hear he used to turn wine into water.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4078972)
A priest I know told my wife that when the Missal changes were given to them,, he and dozens of others called the Bishop's office, where they were told don't bother,


I've heard the same thing at our parish, though our priest is doing his best to sell them. And in our church, the changes our priest and new music director have made on that front been so abysmal that the missal changes are a minor nuisance.
   35. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4078978)
I always kind of liked Sweeney as a player, so it's disappointing to see him endorse someone like Santorum.


I've come to terms with the fact that probably almost all of the pro athletes I watch do not share my political views. And I'm fine with this, unless the player is promoting outright bigotry.
   36. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4078982)
And in our church, the changes our priest and new music director have made on that front been so abysmal that the missal changes are a minor nuisance.

Even an atheist knows that a hit to the music hurts the faithful.
   37. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4078983)
I'm surprised Jim's server wasn't hit by lighting when either of 15 or 19 was posted.

Like Whitney Houston and many before her, Jesus would have wanted us to play on despite his untimely death.
   38. zonk Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4078989)
I'm surprised Jim's server wasn't hit by lighting when either of 15 or 19 was posted.


Are you saying Jesus can't hit a server?
   39. Chicago Joe Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4078996)
and I'm pretty sure my wife is not the only person he's told things he's no supposed to

Your wife's name is Carmella?
   40. Chicago Joe Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4078997)
Are you saying Jesus can't hit a server?


"Turn the other processor."
   41. andrewreinsch Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4078999)
I like the bulk of the changes in the new missal translation. The changes to the penitential act, the "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault" part, are my favorite. And for the occasionally clunky construction in the creed, having "consubstantial" in there has me hooked.

Though, it's possible I'm just too pleased with myself for finally nailing every "and with your spirit" for a few weeks in a row now.
   42. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4079001)
I've come to terms with the fact that probably almost all of the pro athletes I watch do not share my political views.

I can easily live with a bunch of half-educated millionaire jocks coming out for someone like Santorum, but it took me nearly 24 hours to get over my discovery that Barbara Stanwyck was a Republican.
   43. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4079003)
through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault

Is that out or back in?
   44. phredbird Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4079004)
**walks in, looks around, leaves**
   45. SoSH U at work Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4079006)
Though, it's possible I'm just too pleased with myself for finally nailing every "and with your spirit" for a few weeks in a row now.


My father-in-law went 0-5 yesterday (I suppose I can't call it taking the collar), even when I was pointing out one upcoming appearance on the Cheat Sheet. I'm starting to think he hasn't been terribly faithful in his Mass attendance back home.

   46. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4079009)
Who has Terrence Long endorsed? Anyone know?
   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4079010)
They introduced a new English translation of the latin Missal.. and it's a complete ###########, absolutely terribly written, I don't know how well the translators understand Latin but I swear to god none of them are remotely proficient at English.
Where the meaning of the texts has not been actually changed- the wording has been changed to become much more cumbersome and awkward. Amazingly they have taken many passages whose English renderings are somewhat old and made them positively antiquated, for the apparent reason of? There is no readily apparent reason.


There is a reason.

They wanted the new language to conform to the specific doctrinal nuance of the Latin original (which had been much better conveyed in other vernacular translations, e.g. Spanish, Italian, French). They didn't care if the English was clunky. They wanted theological accuracy above all else.

Most prominent examples:

"And with your spirit", instead of "And also with you". "Et sum spiritu tuo" is an ancient liturgical phrase (early first milennium). All the other vernaculars had it accurately, English didn't.

In the Creed, "incarnate" and "consubtantial" have specific theological meanings.

In the Eucharistic prayer, "which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins" instead of "It will be shed for you and for all, so that sins may be forgiven", because many are saved, not all.

They wanted accurate translation, and were willing to sacrifice some of the flow.
   48. Ron J Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4079011)
Is that a Walt Davis thing?


The earliest reference I can find on Usenet is by Eric Walker in 1996. He used it at least 3 times on Usenet that year (and probably on his website as well). The earliest (that I can find after devoting many seconds of research) being in a discussion about how well Ernie Young had played in the minors.

Let's look at Young's entire history from double-A through Wednesday, 17 July
1996 (when I took this statistical snapshot), all data normalized to pre-Silly
Ball major-league park-neutral figures:


Vinay Kumar is the first person I can find after Eric to have used the phrase.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4079012)
Even an atheist knows that a hit to the music hurts the faithful.

Nah, Catholics hate to sing, especially when they usually pick 20th century hymns no one ever heard of. I bet if you got rid of all hymns at Mass attendance would go up 20%.

It's funny how Vatican 2 was completely ignored on music issues. The Council clearly called for Gregorian Chant to remain the principal form of music. the Mass should be sung (e.g. the parts of the mass chanted) rather than there be singing at Mass.
   50. andrewreinsch Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4079014)
crowded cushions: it's back in, which I think has en-grumped the not small amount of folks who watch suspiciously for the return of the Tridentine rite.

SOSH: I nearly high-fived the woman in front of me the first time I got them all. The profoundest effect of all of this on me has been the growth of un-churchy reactions to my tiny successes and failures, whether the above mentioned near-five or swearing under my breath when I screwed up.
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4079016)
through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault

Is that out or back in?


It was always in the Latin (both Traditional and Novus Ordo Mass). It was missing in the English translation, and has been restored.
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4079020)
crowded cushions: it's back in, which I think has en-grumped the not small amount of folks who watch suspiciously for the return of the Tridentine rite.

Which is funny, because most of them probably have no memory of, or have never even attended a Tridentine Mass.

It is actually a much better Mass; they cut way too much stuff out. They cut out tons of prayers, and didn't even shorten the Mass b/c of all the damn hymns they added. I wish they had just translated the propers (the parts that change every day) in the vernacular, and left it alone.

There is no problem increasing congregation participation in the Tridentine Mass; I've been to a "dialogue" Mass, and the people just all say the altar servers parts, plus the Gloria, Credo, Agnus Dei, Dominus non sum dignus, and Our Father.
   53. SoSH U at work Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4079021)
Nah, Catholics hate to sing, especially when they usually pick 20th century hymns no one ever heard of. I bet if you got rid of all hymns at Mass attendance would go up 20%.


That was true at the church I grew up in, where only offered one Mass with music was offered at all. We really didn't care about the music.

It's a very different story at the church we frequent now. The music shift (from more mostly traditional church hyms played on organ with miminimal accompaniment but with changes in tempo from song to song) to modern hyms led by acoustic guitar, all delivered with a mind-numbing easy sameness has been a major source of discontent throughout the parish.
   54. DA Baracus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4079024)
Does anyone give two shits about Mike Sweeney anymore?


Yes.


Good for you. This article has nothing to do with baseball.
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4079027)
modern hyms led by acoustic guitar, all delivered with a mind-numbing easy sameness has been a major source of discontent throughout the parish.

I've yet to meet a person who actually likes the "pop trio" approach to Church music, yet it continues.

For me, the more silence in a Mass the better. Makes it much more prayerful and spiritual. It's not supposed to be a show.
   56. andrewreinsch Posted: March 12, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4079030)
When I lived in Chicago, I went to the Tridentine Low Mass at St. John Cantius. I chose it because it started bright and early and I liked being done before eight o'clock, but it was also kind of nice to have something so quiet first thing in the morning. With the few obvious exceptions, dotted with a five and a half minute homily that always rounded about to "go to confession more frequently", the whole thing sounded like squeaking shoes and swooshing vestments.

I'd believe anybody above fifty-eight who says they remember the old rite well enough to have an opinion about it. And you know what they say about people above fifty-eight with an opinion. They'll tell you about it.
   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4079037)
When I lived in Chicago, I went to the Tridentine Low Mass at St. John Cantius. I chose it because it started bright and early and I liked being done before eight o'clock, but it was also kind of nice to have something so quiet first thing in the morning. With the few obvious exceptions, dotted with a five and a half minute homily that always rounded about to "go to confession more frequently", the whole thing sounded like squeaking shoes and swooshing vestments.

But that's only one option for the Tridentine Mass.

There are sung and High Masses which are basically constant music/chant except for the readings, homily and Canon. And there are dialogue masses where the congregation says all the server parts, plus Confiteor, Gloria, Creed, Agnes Dei, Our Father, etc.

The prevalence of the silent low Mass was a pecularity of local practice.
   58. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4079040)
I'd believe anybody above fifty-eight who says they remember the old rite well enough to have an opinion about it. And you know what they say about people above fifty-eight with an opinion. They'll tell you about it.

I have an opinion about you, whippersnapper!

High Masses in Latin were pretty cool, in limited doses though. They usually went with a high-falutin' sermon.

I have a nomination for worst altar boy duty ever: Saturday Morning, 6:30 in the convent chapel. A dozen or so pairs of eyes just waiting to catch you in a slouch. And I can't imagine what would have transpired if you didn't take communion!
That duty was basically untradeable. Maybe a complete set of Topps (which no one had anyway) would have done it.
   59. Nasty Nate Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4079044)
I have a nomination for worst altar boy duty ever:


....well, that might be second-worst...
   60. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4079045)
I'm just going to refer to him as Mike "Frothy" Sweeney from now on.
   61. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4079046)
They wanted accurate translation, and were willing to sacrifice some of the flow.


If theres one thing you can fault the original Klingon for, it's lack of flow.
   62. andrewreinsch Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4079049)
But that's only one option for the Tridentine Mass.


Yeah, the one I chose. If I was a late riser, I could have gone to the High Mass at the same place. If I spoke German, I could have gone to this place in LP. I wasn't trying to cover the breadth of liturgical options for North American Catholics, just describing how I spent my Sunday mornings for a few years.
   63. staring out the window and waiting for fenderbelly Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4079051)
Would the Crusades be considered the sillyball era of christianity?
   64. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4079053)
For me, the more silence in a Mass the better. Makes it much more prayerful and spiritual. It's not supposed to be a show.

GUFFAW. Look around you at every Roman Catholic cathedral, at the Vatican. Some of the shows at Vegas don't have that kind of stage.

I suppose I did speak wrongly regarding at least the catholics and music; it's true they are joyless non-singers, one forgets after so long away from the mass. Thank Odin for the Episcopals.


That was true at the church I grew up in, where only offered one Mass with music was offered at all. We really didn't care about the music. It's a very different story at the church we frequent now. The music shift (from more mostly traditional church hyms played on organ with miminimal accompaniment but with changes in tempo from song to song) to modern hyms led by acoustic guitar, all delivered with a mind-numbing easy sameness has been a major source of discontent throughout the parish.

This is why I feel sorry for catholics, SoSH, I'm sorry. The music you had was probably boring half the parish, and the music you have now is angering the other half. There was only about a 500-year history of unbelievably beautiful music written for the glory of christianity prior to the folk guitar hynm, how the Episcopals kept it and all y'all catholics discarded it all is a mystery to me, at least.
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4079055)
Yeah, the one I chose. If I was a late riser, I could have gone to the High Mass at the same palce. If I spoke German, I could have gone to this place in LP. I wasn't trying to cover the breadth of liturgical options for North American Catholics, just describing how I spent my Sunday mornings for a few years.

Oh sure, not criticising.
   66. andrewreinsch Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4079056)
I have a nomination for worst altar boy duty ever: Saturday Morning, 6:30 in the convent chapel. A dozen or so pairs of eyes just waiting to catch you in a slouch.


Oof. Yeah, that's too early for that kind of anxiety.

   67. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4079058)
have a nomination for worst altar boy duty ever:

....well, that might be second-worst...



Nasty Nate lives up to his name!!!
   68. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4079062)

Good for you. This article has nothing to do with baseball.


Mike Sweeney was a baseball player, for a semi-professional team in Kansas City.
   69. Greg K Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4079063)
Would the Crusades be considered the sillyball era of christianity?

I think the various reformations, counter-reformations, and wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries might beat out the Crusades.
   70. DA Baracus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4079068)
Mike Sweeney was a baseball player, for a semi-professional team in Kansas City.


Show me where it talks about baseball.
   71. JPWF1313 Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4079070)
For me, the more silence in a Mass the better. Makes it much more prayerful and spiritual. It's not supposed to be a show.


And you try to come off as a Catholic Traditionalist...

OF COURSE MASS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SHOW
   72. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4079071)

Show me where it talks about baseball.


Mike Sweeney was a five-time Major League All-Star, with a career batting average of .297 and over 200 homeruns


Look, if you don't like the thread, stop posting. Relax man!
   73. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4079075)
And you try to come off as a Catholic Traditionalist...

OF COURSE MASS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SHOW


High Mass, not low Mass.
   74. DA Baracus Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4079078)
I am relaxed. I'm just trying to understand why you posted this given that these types of threads are supposed to be going away.
   75. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4079079)
Show me where it talks about baseball.


From the piece: "Mike Sweeney said: 'I take great pride in the success I've had on the baseball field...' Mike Sweeney was a five-time Major League All-Star, with a career batting average of .297 and over 200 homeruns. Sweeney played for four Major League teams, including over a decade with the Kansas City Royals."

To me, that looks like "talking about baseball".
   76. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4079081)

I am relaxed. I'm just trying to understand why you posted this given that these types of threads are supposed to be going away.


Are they supposed to be going away? I didn't know. Guess we gotta squeeze them in before the censors come in and regulate what we talk about.

I posted it because I'm a Royals fan, was a bit of a Sweeney fan, am a politics junkie, and I thought it was interesting and relevant.
   77. JPWF1313 Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4079082)
There is a reason.

They wanted the new language to conform to the specific doctrinal nuance of the Latin original (which had been much better conveyed in other vernacular translations...
"And with your spirit", instead of "And also with you". "Et sum spiritu tuo" is an ancient liturgical phrase (early first milennium). All the other vernaculars had it accurately, English didn't.


Word for Word translations from one language to another do not always work, the Chinese on particular are always trying to translate Chinese into English Word for Word, and he results are oftentimes howlingly awful. They do it, I am convinced, out of sheer stubbornness- my wife is Chinese, and do you know what you get if you try to correct the English of a Chinese American for whom English is second (or 3rd) language? An ARGUMENT (even if they asked for help in the first place- because usually they are just seeking confirmation that they got it right).

I suspect that the Latin translators opted for clunky word for word translations when and where they couldn't agree on what the most accurate English translation of the "specific doctrinal nuance of the Latin original" was.

   78. Booey Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4079084)
This article has nothing to do with baseball.

Weird, since the discussions on BBTF always revolve solely around baseball and never veer off into any non-baseball related subjects. An innocent article paying tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Homer at the Bat Simpsons episode, for example, would never turn into a 750 post debate about how to survive the zombie apocalypse. Never. :)

(and I'm not complaining. I thoroughly enjoyed that thread)


Who coined the phrase "sillyball"? Is that a Walt Davis thing? In any case, I really like it as a descriptor and hope it catches on

Agreed. It's much more accurate than the usual "steroid era" descriptor, since the steroid era likely started at least 20 years earlier than it's given credit for and will continue for as long as sports exist.
   79. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4079085)
An innocent article paying tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Homer at the Bat Simpsons episode would never turn into a 750 post debate about how to survive the zombie apocalypse. Never. :)


Say what? I never clicked on that one because I'm not much of a Simpsons devotee, but as a certified zombie obsessive I should have been notified!
   80. Tom T Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4079087)
In the Eucharistic prayer, "which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins" instead of "It will be shed for you and for all, so that sins may be forgiven", because many are saved, not all.


Ouch. I bet the Franciscan and Jesuit priests from my schools are grumpy about this bit. They were big into presenting the idea that ALL would be saved (seeing how as Catholicism was not actively into the "conversion" bit like the evangelical churches).

Also:

"through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault"


... sounds very Southern Methodist/Baptist with regard to self-deprecation. Again, not the cup-o-tea of my old parish priests.

Overall, this revision sounds awful, and coupled with the movement to the "pop trio" approach, I'm not entirely sure I could differentiate between a United Methodist and a Catholic service. What's the point of that?? Kind of like adding the DH to the NL....

Guess I'll pass on attending mass for another couple decades!
   81. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4079088)
Say what? I never clicked on that one because I'm not much of a Simpsons devotee, but as a certified zombie obsessive I should have been notified!

Sounds like our profiles need tags like the articles get.
   82. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4079089)
This is why I feel sorry for catholics, SoSH, I'm sorry. The music you had was probably boring half the parish, and the music you have now is angering the other half. There was only about a 500-year history of unbelievably beautiful music written for the glory of christianity prior to the folk guitar hynm, how the Episcopals kept it and all y'all catholics discarded it all is a mystery to me, at least.

Yes. Unbelievable.

Catholics have zero tradition of singing hymns at Mass, but 2000 years worth of chant and polyphony, and instead we get warmed over folk music and insipid pop "hymns".

Have you ever worked at a Catholic Parish, Lassus? Why do no music directors ever try chant? Even plainchant.
   83. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4079090)
I suspect that the Latin translators opted for clunky word for word translations when and where they couldn't agree on what the most accurate English translation of the "specific doctrinal nuance of the Latin original" was.


It's telling that snapper says that the original doctrinal nuance "had been much better conveyed in other vernacular translations, e.g. Spanish, Italian, French." IOW, the Latin worked much better in the languages directly descended from Latin than it does in English. Not terribly surprising. I'm sure that the translation of the Catholic Bible into Chinese is either a doctrinal mess or an aesthetic disaster, depending on which way they decided to go. Or both, if they tried to compromise.

There's something to be said for the idea common in Islam that the Koran isn't the Koran unless it's in classical Arabic.
   84. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4079092)
Show me where it talks about baseball.


Given the number of times we take innocuous baseball posts and turn them into STFU YOU OTHER, I suggest that nakedly political posts might lead to "less" semi-intellectual politimasturbating.
   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4079093)
Overall, this revision sounds awful, and coupled with the movement to the "pop trio" approach, I'm not entirely sure I could differentiate between a United Methodist and a Catholic service. What's the point of that?? Kind of like adding the DH to the NL....

Guess I'll pass on attending mass for another couple decades!


It's not really a revision, it's a corrected translation. The Latin text always had those things. If those priests reject the idea that some are damned (through their own choosing), they're rejecting Catholic doctrine.

But overall, you're right that the current Mass isn't very good, or very Catholic. That's why there's a big move towards the Traditional Latin Mass (aka Tridentine, aka 1962 Missal) among more traditional Catholics.
   86. SoSH U at work Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4079094)
This is why I feel sorry for catholics, SoSH, I'm sorry. The music you had was probably boring half the parish, and the music you have now is angering the other half.


If there are parishoners happy with the change, I haven't met them. I've met plenty who are unhappy, and one family we're friendly with has begun visiting another local parish as a result.

   87. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4079095)

Given the number of times we take innocuous baseball posts and turn them into STFU YOU OTHER, I suggest that nakedly political posts might lead to "less" semi-intellectual politimasturbating.


Perhaps. Maybe some people like that though. And if others don't, well they are free not to participate. I'd hate to have a forum where the authorities regulate what some people like to do simply because others who are free not to participate find it distasteful. Thankfully, our politicians are above such nonsense.
   88. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4079096)
I suspect that the Latin translators opted for clunky word for word translations when and where they couldn't agree on what the most accurate English translation of the "specific doctrinal nuance of the Latin original" was.

That's probably true. If you can't agree how to translate "consubstantialem" or "incarnatus" just say consubstantial and incarnate.

"Pro multis" however was just blatant wishcasting in the 1970's translation. It's "for many" or "for the many".
   89. JPWF1313 Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4079099)
In the Gloria, "peace to his people on earth" becomes "peace on earth to people of good will," which is literally what the Latin says, although the inclusive "people" is retained for hominibus, which is literally the generic "men."


In my second year of college one of my roommates was a "born again christian" (I have no idea what particular denomination, but that's what he called himself, I called him a Jesus Freak), he took a course on ancient Greek because he wanted to read the "original" text himself. He had a King James version of the Bible that he read every damn day... After Thanksgiving I brought my Douay Bible from home to read out of and annoy him (and if you want inelegant clunky English...).

Anyway, I grew bored with that, and my Bible sat getting dusty most of the rest of the year, until one day he walks in and asks me for it- he wants to see something- he seemed distressed. I gave it to him, he thumbs through it, states at one page awhile, gave it back to me, went over to his bunk and sated at the window for A LONG TIME.

I'm getting just a little curious, so I go over, "What's up?"
"It doesn't say good will towards men"
"huh"
"It doesn't say good will towards men, it says "peace to men of good will"
"...ok..."

I'm sure other passages had been bothering him as he'd been learning Greek, but that was the tipping point, a specific instance where the heathan Catholic Douay version was more accurate than the KJ (The King James version is the ONLY version, any other version is a PERVERSION)- when someone is a sincere fundamentalist- when one take one's holy books to be the literal word of god- which are meant to be taken literally- 7 days, Adam and Eve, Noah etc etc... finding out that there may be issues with your preferred version can be sticky.

He of course later told me that his pastor told him that the "original" Greek he'd been reading was not "original," he was going to need to learn Arabic- I corrected him and said "Aramaic," he just stared at me, and finally said "Darwin is still full of ####\"

That was the only time I ever heard him use that word- which is incredible for a college undergrad if you ask me.
   90. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4079101)
Say what? I never clicked on that one because I'm not much of a Simpsons devotee, but as a certified zombie obsessive I should have been notified!

Sounds like our profiles need tags like the articles get.


Indeed.

If anyone here has seen more zombie movies than I have -- 250-some-odd; the count was around 225 when my hard-drive crashed in mid-2010, wiping out the list I was, sadly enough, keeping -- I'd be shocked. Also appalled.
   91. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4079102)
... sounds very Southern Methodist/Baptist with regard to self-deprecation. Again, not the cup-o-tea of my old parish priests.

That's seems funny to me. It's supposed to be a "mini-confession" for venial sins that will be forgiven through the Eucharist. Very Catholic. Not at all "once saved always saved".

Just like in the Sacrament of Confession the penitent "accuses" himself of mortal sins, and asks forgiveness by God, through the absolution of the priest, in the Confiteor you accuse yourself of venial sins, and ask forgiveness of God throught the Eucharist.
   92. Monty Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4079103)
Technically, this is a religion thread, not a politics thread.
   93. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4079104)
Technically, this is a religion thread, not a politics thread.

And astonishingly, very civil.
   94. JPWF1313 Posted: March 12, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4079105)
Why do no music directors ever try chant? Even plainchant.


Because except for certain old priests who learned to do it long ago, no one now can try without breaking down and laughing on the 3rd or 4th word...
   95. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4079106)
Word for Word translations from one language to another do not always work

This. Translation is an art, not an exact science. You are never going to be able to achieve 100% accuracy.

As an aside, this is the reason I cannot read or watch anything not done in its original language. I've seen how much gets changed and lost from the original going from English to German, or vice versa. And I just can't enjoy anything knowing that fact.
   96. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4079111)
Because except for certain old priests who learned to do it long ago, no one now can try without breaking down and laughing on the 3rd or 4th word...

Why? People don't have a problem with "Tantum Ergo" at benediction, or the Agnus Dei is Latin?

Chant is allegedly very closely derived from how the Hebrews of Christ's time prayed the Psalms. It should actually be very popular among "originalists", ironically mostly Protestants.
   97. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4079114)
And astonishingly, very civil.

I can start calling you names if you are getting distressed...
   98. Booey Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4079115)
Say what? I never clicked on that one because I'm not much of a Simpsons devotee, but as a certified zombie obsessive I should have been notified!

Yeah, you should check it out. 752 posts and still climbing. Pretty impressive for a thread that was posted 3 weeks ago!
   99. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4079116)
This. Translation is an art, not an exact science. You are never going to be able to achieve 100% accuracy.

There's a reason why religions tend to have "liturgical languages", different from the spoken vernacular.
   100. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4079117)
I can start calling you names if you are getting distressed...

No, I'm cool. I think it's actually far more interesting to discuss religion than politics, which is why it's a shame it degenerates so often.
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