You really don't think that's even a "shred"?

You're really an ass, aren't you?

You are either going to have to show that this police force has a pattern, or the specific individuals have a history.

In Sanford, hurt feelings over a string of past incidents involving black victims and white perpetrators have yet to ease, and the shooting rekindled distrust over the way police and courts have handled such cases.

Lee’s predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year following a scandal involving a lieutenant’s son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. Police officers reportedly questioned him but did not arrest him. The officer’s son, Justin Collison, 21, later turned himself in after the video surfaced on YouTube and was charged in the attack.

Collison's family paid an undisclosed sum to the homeless man, Sherman Ware, and Ware asked prosecutors to drop the case. They didn't, and Collison eventually pleaded no contest and received probation, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

But the 2005 killing of a black teenager, Travares McGill, by two white security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police officer, drove city race relations to a modern low, according to some black residents.

Early one summer morning, security guards Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley saw McGill dropping off a group of friends in the parking lot of the apartment complex they were hired to guard, according to published reports. They claimed McGill tried to run them down, and both fired, later claiming self-defense. McGill was pronounced dead at the scene. Swofford was a police department volunteer and Ansley is the son of a former veteran of the force.

The pair was arrested and charged, Swofford with manslaughter and Ansley with firing into an occupied vehicle. But a judge later cited lack of evidence and dismissed both cases. According to autopsy reports, McGill suffered fatal gunshot wounds to the back, and it was unclear if the pair was in danger.

"We're small town, we make mistakes" is not a defense that's going to fly.

I mean, what if Martin feared he was imminent danger? Again - just gaming this out... are we really saying that it's plausible that Zimmerman feared for his safety and thus justified in killing Martin, but if Martin feared for his safety, he wasn't justified in getting the jump on an armed guy following him?

I didn't say it was a good excuse, but it's reality.

This doesn't make any sense to me. If Zimmerman was on foot and was running up behind Martin in a threatening manner, that's one thing.

But if Zimmerman was in his car, why would Martin stick around?

Why wouldn't he make a bee-line for the house he was visiting, or bang a quick U-turn and go in the opposite direction of Zimmerman's car?

What is ironic is the vigilantiism being trafficked in by the very people who are upset at Zimmerman's... vigilantiism.

I'm not a cop, but come on... how grossly incompetent do you have to be to not even bother redialing the last number called? Unless this was some 15 yo cellphone, I suspect even viewing call history would clearly show it occurred just minutes before this altercation.

No, Ray. What is ironic in this thread is how quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question our local libertarian chorus falls into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government when the alternative is to consider the civil liberty claims of someone represented by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

Physician, heal thyself.

I know you're expecting David Caruso to appear at the scene, and mutter "Looks like this kid landed ..." Then he takes off his sunglasses and finishes, "In deep Skittles."


YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman. At most, we've been mocking the idea that a bunch of self-righteous screamers on the internet have been able to glean enough "facts" and "evidence" from news reports to conclude Zimmerman is a racist and to schedule an execution date in Starke.

Yes, I think it would have gone the same way. This is about insiders and outsiders, and small town police protecting townies, not race.

Well, believe me, if you had been mugged or beaten up in NYC pre-Giuliani/Bratton in a dangerous neighborhood, "guy was somewhere he shouldn't have been" would be exactly the response you would have gotten. That case would have been filed away before your bruises healed.

But, I can definitely see how the police/DA could think they have no chance of proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Probably should have arrested him anyway as CYA.

Again, I think he probably committed a crime (I doubt it was murder) and the polic probably should've arrested him, and investigated more. But the odds of him being convicted, given the facts and evidence are likely very low.

He didn't, he was trying to walk away and ran at some point after that.

This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman.

1212 — Your selection of quotes is a little puzzling. The first one might help your case, but the second one seems like an aside about 1980s NYC, and the last two imply the police fouled up. (snapper said the police "probably should have arrested him" in both quotes.)

But forcing a trial, and crushing legal bills, on the Zimmerman family, if the DA doesn't think he has a reasonable case, won't fix anything.

At this point, I'd actually worry that Zimmerman can't get a fair trial.

This fact says more about your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, than anything else.

This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman. At most, we've been mocking the idea that a bunch of self-righteous screamers on the internet have been able to glean enough "facts" and "evidence" from news reports to conclude Zimmerman is a racist and to schedule an execution date in Starke.
snapper from last page:

Yes, we shouldn't force a trial on Zimmerman. He's the real victim who won't even be able to get a fair trial.

and admit that sometimes, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton might have a point worth listening to.

And the reason the right wingers here are rallying around Zimmerman and the (at best) inept police is tribal.

Al has a point worth listening to about as often as Pat Buchanan.

You should have went with Hitler.

Not saying any of that is true or not, and not saying the police did a good job, but you can't see how the police and DA (acting w/o malice) might of thought they had no chance of a conviction?

I'm still waiting for that collection of quotes to back up your claim that "our local libertarian chorus" fell "quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question" "into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government."

Why, I oughta...Oh. The other Joe.

The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.

And no, Joe. I have no expectation whatsoever that you're going to understand this. You've never shown any ability to think outside of your little tribal box, yourself, that I've seen.

A neighborhood watch guy following someone not known to live in that particular gated community is not, in and of itself, evidence of racism.

How could he tell if he was known to live there? And considering he was leaving his mom-to-be's place, he was wrong about that anyway.

This same type of thing, minus the shooting

The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.

This same type of thing, minus the shooting

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys tend to know who does and doesn't live in their gated community?

My point is that there is nothing that will convince you there is a racial problem in the country. It's always just insignificant. But to the targets of such sentiments, there is an actual problem to deal with. That you don't think there is does not mean there isn't, and your dismissal of any level of repeated events show - in my opinion- just how much attention you give to such issues.

Pretty big caveat there.

My point is that there is nothing that will convince you there is a racial problem in the country. It's always just insignificant. But to the targets of such sentiments, there is an actual problem to deal with. That you don't think there is does not mean there isn't, and your dismissal of any level of repeated events show - in my opinion- just how much attention you give to such issues.

Zimmerman could say "I shot the little ###### because he was black" and Ray and Joe would still deny any racial component in the murder. Is this even in question?

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys tend to know who does and doesn't live in their gated community? Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys often follow and make inquiries of unknown persons?

C'mon, this isn't Slate. Too bad, but this has turned, predictably enough, I guess, into almost a textbook seminar on what's wrong with hate crime laws. There's an irrebutable presumption in some people's mind here that if you've proved racism, you've proved the commission of the act.

It should be noted that Zimmerman wasn't appointed the neighborhood watch guy by anyone else in the neighborhood, he appointed himself.

Can that neighborhood watch guy confront people in the neighborhood? Yes.

Can he carry a gun? Yes.

He called once to report his neighbor's open garage door. And in the sixth call, Zimmerman reports children are "habitually" playing in the street at dusk and running in front of cars. He asked dispatchers to take his complaint anonymously, but provided his name and phone number.

"There's two suspicious characters at the gate of my neighborhood, I've never seen them before. I don't know what they are doing. They are hanging out… loitering

The stories I've read have described Zimmerman as the "neighborhood watch captain." I'm sure it's a volunteer job, but the "captain" part seems to imply there's more than one person involved and that maybe an election was held.

The fact that she shot her from behind is what's damning. The only way I see you can claim self-defense in that case is 1) it was too dark to see (e.g. intruder in your house), or 2) There are multiple assailants/lots of chaos

We all have the right to make a citizen's arrest, so we're all "neighborhood watch" people, albeit in an inchoate sense. The vast majority of us don't exercise this right, but it is a right. Under Florida law, Zimmermann had the same right to arrest as a police officer from another jurisdiction.

LMGTFY

Is there a definitive report that he was "self-appointed"? Just because some blogs use that phrase doesn't mean it's true. (If he was truly self-appointed, why doesn't the media just call him a "resident" rather than the "neighborhood watch captain"? The latter strongly implies some sort of affiliation or organization.)

Is there a definitive report that he was "self-appointed"? Just because some blogs use that phrase doesn't mean it's true. (If he was truly self-appointed, why doesn't the media just call him a "resident" rather than the "neighborhood watch captain"? The latter strongly implies some sort of affiliation or organization.)

Yes, there were several links to news articles in the link I gave you. Or you could click the news tab.

Do you prefer FoxNews? Local CBS? ABC? The head of the National Sheriffs Association?

I became "insufferable" because you compounded and proved the very point I was making - "Pffft, four tweets, who cares? Pfft, ten tweets, who cares? Pffft, 175 tweets, who cares?"

You don't find these racists idiots to be important, you don't find those racist idiots to be important. It doesn't add up for you, shocker, but it adds up for those who it is meant for. You don't have to live in perpetual fear (something I of course didn't claim) to be affected by what goes on around you and have it inform your reactions to events. Which was all I was getting at.

To me, a "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is just a resident, and should be described as such.

He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

Do either of you know what "incontinence" means?

A "resident" is very rarely going to just chase down random strangers that they see in the neighborhood. A "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is pretty much going to be paranoid and prone to doing paranoid things. As such, there is a difference and if the media is going to report honestly should at least acknowledge that the difference exists.

The phrase "neighborhood watch" implies an organization of people in a given community, whether it's an organized but unaffiliated neighborhood watch or an affiliated/official Neighborhood Watch. Until this news coverage, I had never heard or seen the phrase "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain." Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles, and since when does the media print them?

Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles?

And the fact that these few hundreds of idiots are neither the first nor the last in a long line of continuing racist idiots also means nothing to you, then, yes? Is each time like the first and the last time for you, Joe?

but everything I've read screams paranoid self-appointed guardian-type who had a severely inflated sense of what he versus the actual authorities should be doing.

The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.

Right, I don't "find these racist idiots to be important." Call me crazy, but I don't believe a few idiots on Twitter who complained about a casting decision in a teenybopper movie are a clear and present danger to black Americans.

And the fact that these few hundreds of idiots are neither the first nor the last in a long line of continuing racist idiots also means nothing to you, then, yes?

Not saying any of that is true or not, and not saying the police did a good job, but you can't see how the police and DA (acting w/o malice) might of thought they had no chance of a conviction?

So you're saying the suspect, who shot the victim in plain sight, made claims affirming a defense? You don't say.

How many recurring groups of 200 or 300 are no longer individuals?

(I only reprinted your first sentence because I enjoy watching you try and make a point of distaste out of the title of the website.)

If you think that the core racial problems in the country come from hardcore, "dangerous" racists as opposed to common, regular racists, you are certainly as uninterested in racial issues as I originally stated.

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

What we've been hearing is that the police didn't interview Zimmerman and thus didn't care that a black kid had been killed. That first assertion clearly is not the case, as they _did_ interview him.

All of this stuff is completely irrelevant to his case and smacks of victim blaming.

Until this news coverage, I had never heard or seen the phrase "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain." Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles, and since when does the media print them?

HOW IN THE WORLD ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE RUE A FREAKIN BLACK ##### IN THE MOVIE!?!?!??!?!

I was pumped about the Hunger Games. Until I learned that a black girl was playing Rue.

Oh good lord. HUH? Weren't you the one going on and on about how the "I DON"T GET IT" shtick was tired here? How are 200 or 300 random people who all are making the same point not a group of people making the same point? 200 people is a group of people. It's simply language. I can't believe that is difficult to understand.

HOW IN THE WORLD ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE RUE A FREAKIN BLACK ##### IN THE MOVIE!?!?!??!?!

I'm glad you can define racism as only equalling violence. WHEW! So, again, educate me on language comprehension - this quoted statement is not hostile, yes? I'm not sure the College Board would agree.

I was pumped about the Hunger Games. Until I learned that a black girl was playing Rue.

I look forward to the video of you explaining to an 8-year-old girl how this doesn't really count as racism, as it's not violent or hostile. And the other 200 similar tweets? Hey, there are individual racists everywhere. It's all good.