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Monday, March 12, 2012

Kansas City Royals All-Star Mike Sweeney Endorses Santorum for President

Forgive me for posting this.

The Rick Santorum for President campaign is proud to announce that it has received the endorsement of All-Star Major Leaguer Mike Sweeney.

Mike Sweeney said: “I take great pride in the success I’ve had on the baseball field, but even greater satisfaction in knowing that I have spent my entire life embracing Godly principles and instilling these values into the everyday lives of my children, family and friends. After personally getting to know Rick Santorum, I am absolutely convinced that he is the only candidate in the 2012 Presidential race that shares these same core values! The moral decline of our great country must stop now and this can only be achieved through real leadership and real solutions. I believe Senator Santorum has the wisdom, passion and vision to bring our country back to global excellence with those core Christian beliefs that our Founding Fathers envisioned, including protecting the rights of the unborn child, in mind.  This election is the most important in my lifetime and as a father, husband, and American I am proud to play on Rick Santorum’s team!”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM | 2194 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1201. JPWF1313 Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:04 PM (#4089603)
You really don't think that's even a "shred"?


Oh, there's certainly a shred of evidence that Zimmerman's "stalking" of Martin was racially motivated.

The police response? I don't know.

What the demographics of the Police force? The homicide squad?
The Mayor and Police Chief are white, the city manager and one of the city commissioners are black, looking at the city's website, most public officials appear white, with a few blacks, I can't see an hispanics.

FWIW according to Wikipedia the City is 30% black.
   1202. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4089604)
You're really an ass, aren't you?


A new suggested handle for someone!
   1203. Danny Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4089610)
You are either going to have to show that this police force has a pattern, or the specific individuals have a history.

Like this?
In Sanford, hurt feelings over a string of past incidents involving black victims and white perpetrators have yet to ease, and the shooting rekindled distrust over the way police and courts have handled such cases.

Lee’s predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year following a scandal involving a lieutenant’s son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. Police officers reportedly questioned him but did not arrest him. The officer’s son, Justin Collison, 21, later turned himself in after the video surfaced on YouTube and was charged in the attack.

Collison's family paid an undisclosed sum to the homeless man, Sherman Ware, and Ware asked prosecutors to drop the case. They didn't, and Collison eventually pleaded no contest and received probation, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

But the 2005 killing of a black teenager, Travares McGill, by two white security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police officer, drove city race relations to a modern low, according to some black residents.

Early one summer morning, security guards Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley saw McGill dropping off a group of friends in the parking lot of the apartment complex they were hired to guard, according to published reports. They claimed McGill tried to run them down, and both fired, later claiming self-defense. McGill was pronounced dead at the scene. Swofford was a police department volunteer and Ansley is the son of a former veteran of the force.

The pair was arrested and charged, Swofford with manslaughter and Ansley with firing into an occupied vehicle. But a judge later cited lack of evidence and dismissed both cases. According to autopsy reports, McGill suffered fatal gunshot wounds to the back, and it was unclear if the pair was in danger.
   1204. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4089611)
"We're small town, we make mistakes" is not a defense that's going to fly.

I didn't say it was a good excuse, but it's reality.

***

I mean, what if Martin feared he was imminent danger? Again - just gaming this out... are we really saying that it's plausible that Zimmerman feared for his safety and thus justified in killing Martin, but if Martin feared for his safety, he wasn't justified in getting the jump on an armed guy following him?

This doesn't make any sense to me. If Zimmerman was on foot and was running up behind Martin in a threatening manner, that's one thing. But if Zimmerman was in his car, why would Martin stick around? Why wouldn't he make a bee-line for the house he was visiting, or bang a quick U-turn and go in the opposite direction of Zimmerman's car? And if you're claiming Martin somehow knew or suspected that Zimmerman was armed but still tried to "get the jump" on him, then that's nuts.
   1205. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4089612)
I didn't say it was a good excuse, but it's reality.


I agree. It's an unfortunate reality.
   1206. Dan The Mediocre Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4089613)
This doesn't make any sense to me. If Zimmerman was on foot and was running up behind Martin in a threatening manner, that's one thing.


That's basically what the unnamed GF said. He told her that a man was following him and he was trying to walk away and at one point he was running away before the confrontation.

But if Zimmerman was in his car, why would Martin stick around?


He didn't, he was trying to walk away and ran at some point after that.

Why wouldn't he make a bee-line for the house he was visiting, or bang a quick U-turn and go in the opposite direction of Zimmerman's car?


Presumably, a change of direction would take him away from where he was going (home). And most people think of home as a safe place, so it wouldn't be unusual for someone to try to get there when they feel threatened.
   1207. JL Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4089614)
This doesn't make any sense to me. If Zimmerman was on foot and was running up behind Martin in a threatening manner, that's one thing. But if Zimmerman was in his car, why would Martin stick around? Why wouldn't he make a bee-line for the house he was visiting, or bang a quick U-turn and go in the opposite direction of Zimmerman's car? And if you're claiming Martin somehow knew or suspected that Zimmerman was armed but still tried to "get the jump" on him, then that's nuts.

Why do his reactions need to be perfectly logical, while Zimmerman's do not?
   1208. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4089619)
What is ironic is the vigilantiism being trafficked in by the very people who are upset at Zimmerman's... vigilantiism.


No, Ray. What is ironic in this thread is how quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question our local libertarian chorus falls into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government when the alternative is to consider the civil liberty claims of someone represented by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

Physician, heal thyself.
   1209. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4089625)
I'm not a cop, but come on... how grossly incompetent do you have to be to not even bother redialing the last number called? Unless this was some 15 yo cellphone, I suspect even viewing call history would clearly show it occurred just minutes before this altercation.


A racist police force (and DA's office?) would probably go through _some_ of the motions to make it look like it wasn't racist - just to cover its tracks, in the year 2012.

I know you're expecting David Caruso to appear at the scene, take off his sunglasses, and mutter "This... was clearly an unjustified homicide by Zimmerman..." but that is unlikely to happen.
   1210. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4089629)
No, Ray. What is ironic in this thread is how quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question our local libertarian chorus falls into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government when the alternative is to consider the civil liberty claims of someone represented by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

Physician, heal thyself.

This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman. At most, we've been mocking the idea that a bunch of self-righteous screamers on the internet have been able to glean enough "facts" and "evidence" from news reports to conclude Zimmerman is a racist and to schedule an execution date in Starke.
   1211. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4089630)
I know you're expecting David Caruso to appear at the scene, and mutter "Looks like this kid landed ..." Then he takes off his sunglasses and finishes, "In deep Skittles."


YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


FTFY.
   1212. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4089639)
This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman. At most, we've been mocking the idea that a bunch of self-righteous screamers on the internet have been able to glean enough "facts" and "evidence" from news reports to conclude Zimmerman is a racist and to schedule an execution date in Starke.


snapper from last page:

Yes, I think it would have gone the same way. This is about insiders and outsiders, and small town police protecting townies, not race.


Well, believe me, if you had been mugged or beaten up in NYC pre-Giuliani/Bratton in a dangerous neighborhood, "guy was somewhere he shouldn't have been" would be exactly the response you would have gotten. That case would have been filed away before your bruises healed.


But, I can definitely see how the police/DA could think they have no chance of proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Probably should have arrested him anyway as CYA.


Again, I think he probably committed a crime (I doubt it was murder) and the polic probably should've arrested him, and investigated more. But the odds of him being convicted, given the facts and evidence are likely very low.


Snapper seems to be defending both the police and Zimmerman.
   1213. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4089642)
1212 — Your selection of quotes is a little puzzling. The first one might help your case, but the second one seems like an aside about 1980s NYC, and the last two imply the police fouled up. (snapper said the police "probably should have arrested him" in both quotes.)

If that's the best you can come up with, I stand by my point in #1210.

***

He didn't, he was trying to walk away and ran at some point after that.

It seems like the scenario keeps shifting. One minute, people are talking about the 240-pound Zimmerman having a clear physical advantage over the 140-pound (?) Martin. But now the 240-pound Zimmerman is alleged to have caught up with Martin on foot? The news reports are saying Zimmerman followed by car, then got out, then was getting back into his car when the altercation ensued.
   1214. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4089643)
This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman.


This fact says more about your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, than anything else.
   1215. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4089644)
You know, I get it. Finally. A UFO could have flown by and knocked Zimmerman on his head, causing his injuries, and making him think that Martin had attacked him. That would explain his shooting Martin, too. WE JUST DON'T KNOW! Maybe Zimmerman was hit by a golf ball hit from another street over. WE JUST DON'T KNOW!!! Let's wait and see what the police investigation finds. After all, they seem to not have made their minds up about FLA's "stand your ground law" being broken or not.
   1216. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4089648)
1212 — Your selection of quotes is a little puzzling. The first one might help your case, but the second one seems like an aside about 1980s NYC, and the last two imply the police fouled up. (snapper said the police "probably should have arrested him" in both quotes.)


snapper's claim is that there's no real problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman because "the odds of him being convicted, given the facts and evidence are lively very low." He doesn't discuss how the police didn't investigate the crime--not even checking the cell phone, for instance. In both of those quotes, the only fault put on the police is not engaging in sufficient "CYA."

His defense of Zimmerman is most clearly put here:
But forcing a trial, and crushing legal bills, on the Zimmerman family, if the DA doesn't think he has a reasonable case, won't fix anything.

At this point, I'd actually worry that Zimmerman can't get a fair trial.


Yes, we shouldn't force a trial on Zimmerman. He's the real victim who won't even be able to get a fair trial.
   1217. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4089650)
This fact says more about your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, than anything else.

OK, how about some quotes to back up your claim? I've conceded from my first comment in this discussion that Zimmerman could be racist and that he could be guilty of homicide. But I certainly haven't seen anything in the news reports that conclusively prove either of those things.
   1218. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4089651)
Wow. You really wrote that second sentence directly after the first one? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

You've made a habit of insulting me recently, and I'm sick of it, so I of course no longer extend you that courtesy.

I should have just put you on ignore after the first time. Fixed now.
   1219. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4089652)
Sure there's no proof that he's racist, other than his words ("those people always get away"), his "profiling" ("he's wearing a hoodie...this guy looks like he's up to no good"). Nah, I would say he's just a cautious neighborhood watch person who carries a gun "just in case", with no intention of ever using it.
   1220. JPWF1313 Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4089653)
This is comical. I haven't seen any right-wingers or libertarians defend the police or Zimmerman. At most, we've been mocking the idea that a bunch of self-righteous screamers on the internet have been able to glean enough "facts" and "evidence" from news reports to conclude Zimmerman is a racist and to schedule an execution date in Starke.
snapper from last page:


Snapper may be many things, but he is most definitely not a libertarian
   1221. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4089654)
Yes, we shouldn't force a trial on Zimmerman. He's the real victim who won't even be able to get a fair trial.


And the reason the right wingers here are rallying around Zimmerman and the (at best) inept police is tribal. No concern at all is given to the death of Martin, because to do so would cross partisan lines and admit that sometimes, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton might have a point worth listening to. Rather than cross those mental wires and risk cognitive dissonance, they rally around an emotional defense of the shooter and the police (which is also natural to the right wings, in that they universally cater to the authoritarian police state when given the option.)
   1222. JPWF1313 Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4089658)
and admit that sometimes, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton might have a point worth listening to.


Al has a point worth listening to about as often as Pat Buchanan. Sure it may happen every now and then, but there really is no point in listening to what some people may say or do.
   1223. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4089659)
Al has a point worth listening to about as often as Pat Buchanan.

You should have went with Hitler.
   1224. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4089660)
snapper's claim is that there's no real problem with the police not arresting Zimmerman because "the odds of him being convicted, given the facts and evidence are lively very low." He doesn't discuss how the police didn't investigate the crime--not even checking the cell phone, for instance. In both of those quotes, the only fault put on the police is not engaging in sufficient "CYA."


No, I fully admit the police did a bad job. This case had enough weirdness that the "Stand your ground" defense wasn't ironclad. They should have arrested and investigated further.

That said, I can see where a police force/DA, lacking in experience and maybe competence, but having no racism or malice, could have concluded they couldn't convict, or even indict, Zimmerman.

My aside about NYC in the 60-90's is just to show that nonchalance about people who "shouldn't have been where they got hurt" is common police practice, not that it's right.

Also, anyone read the latest reports?

Zimmerman told the police Martin initiated the violence, punched him (breaking his nose and knocking him down), slammed his head on the ground, and then reached for his gun. A 13-y.o. witness reports seeing a man matching Zimmerman's description on the ground, crying for help, just before the shots. Zimmerman's injuries apparently match this account

Not saying any of that is true or not, and not saying the police did a good job, but you can't see how the police and DA (acting w/o malice) might of thought they had no chance of a conviction?

See story here:

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html
   1225. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:13 PM (#4089661)
And the reason the right wingers here are rallying around Zimmerman and the (at best) inept police is tribal.

I'm still waiting for that collection of quotes to back up your claim that "our local libertarian chorus" fell "quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question" "into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government."

Snapper, as noted, isn't a libertarian, and as far as I can recall, he didn't even show up until the second or third page of the discussion.
   1226. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4089662)
"Quickly" is a relative term.
   1227. JPWF1313 Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4089664)
Al has a point worth listening to about as often as Pat Buchanan.

You should have went with Hitler.


I didn't want to Godwin the thread.
   1228. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4089666)
Oh, yes, as if 13 pages of this BS isn't enough.
   1229. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4089667)
Not saying any of that is true or not, and not saying the police did a good job, but you can't see how the police and DA (acting w/o malice) might of thought they had no chance of a conviction?


So you're saying the suspect, who shot the victim in plain sight, made claims affirming a defense? You don't say.

So if someone wearing a ski mask were to be caught in a store, with the window broken and cash lying around the register, but when the police arrived, he told them that he was just checking out the break-in, he should be free to go, right?
   1230. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4089668)
I'm still waiting for that collection of quotes to back up your claim that "our local libertarian chorus" fell "quickly, completely and absolutely without hint of question" "into lock-step uniformity with the police state/government."


The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.

And no, Joe. I have no expectation whatsoever that you're going to understand this. You've never shown any ability to think outside of your little tribal box, yourself, that I've seen.
   1231. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4089671)
Why, I oughta...Oh. The other Joe.
   1232. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4089672)
Why, I oughta...Oh. The other Joe.


You are just 'Bivens.' You're like my prim English butler.
   1233. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4089675)
That's just a front. I'm more repressed than prim.
   1234. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4089679)
The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.

Absent actual evidence, the idea deserves to be mocked. Al Sharpton saying Zimmerman is a racist doesn't make him a racist. A neighborhood watch guy following someone not known to live in that particular gated community is not, in and of itself, evidence of racism.

And no, Joe. I have no expectation whatsoever that you're going to understand this. You've never shown any ability to think outside of your little tribal box, yourself, that I've seen.

As opposed to you lefties, who are constantly betraying liberal principles to support right-wing or libertarian ideas here? LOL.
   1235. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4089680)
A neighborhood watch guy following someone not known to live in that particular gated community is not, in and of itself, evidence of racism.


How could he tell if he was known to live there? And considering he was leaving his mom-to-be's place, he was wrong about that anyway.
   1236. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4089688)
How could he tell if he was known to live there? And considering he was leaving his mom-to-be's place, he was wrong about that anyway.

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys tend to know who does and doesn't live in their gated community? Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys often follow and make inquiries of unknown persons?

People are talking like Zimmerman was the first neighborhood watch guy in history to follow someone he didn't know. This same type of thing, minus the shooting, has assuredly happened thousands and thousands of times in America prior to Martin being killed.
   1237. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4089692)
This same type of thing, minus the shooting


Pretty big caveat there.

The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.


I think Nieporent has been pretty careful to phrase things fairly neutrally, actually. Ray's main points about the case are that there is no evidence that the police misconduct (I think everyone agrees that there's misconduct? Except snapper?) doesn't prove racism, only incompetence.

Again, I think the main point of the protests is not against racism in America, but rather that justice be done. Racism in this case is sort of a side issue, sort of not. There's the "c**n" thing, but not a ton of stuff on the side of the cops except gross incompetence or racism. There is no smoking gun on the police side.
   1238. Steve Treder Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:02 PM (#4089694)
This same type of thing, minus the shooting


Pretty big caveat there.

RDF.


   1239. Lassus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4089698)
Oh, well, if ten idiots on Twitter were cited, then that changes my whole outlook. Without a doubt, 10 people out of 310,000,000 is a statistically significant sample.

Well, as you've hit flat-out dishonesty now on the numbers (again, the source has nearly 200), I'll try and repeat the original point. It's quite simple:

When these 200 random idiots express blatant racism, it's stupid people, insignificant.
When those 200 random people do the same elsewhere, it's stupid people, insignificant.
When those 30 others do so over there, it's not representative.
When it's this 250 over here, it isn't indicative of a racial problem, it's just an anomaly, stupid people.
When those 15 guys over there are shouting racial epithets at these black girls, it's just dumb college kids.

My point is that there is nothing that will convince you there is a racial problem in the country. It's always just insignificant. But to the targets of such sentiments, there is an actual problem to deal with. That you don't think there is does not mean there isn't, and your dismissal of any level of repeated events show - in my opinion- just how much attention you give to such issues.


I think Nieporent has been pretty careful to phrase things fairly neutrally, actually.

I'll agree with this.
   1240. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:19 PM (#4089702)
Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys tend to know who does and doesn't live in their gated community?


It's his dad's fiance's place. He's probably been there quite a few times.
   1241. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4089703)
My point is that there is nothing that will convince you there is a racial problem in the country. It's always just insignificant. But to the targets of such sentiments, there is an actual problem to deal with. That you don't think there is does not mean there isn't, and your dismissal of any level of repeated events show - in my opinion- just how much attention you give to such issues.


I don't think that crappy YA fiction, turned into a movie and marketed to teeenage girls is really a great medium for examining racism in society.

Although I have avoided Twilight, so maybe Team Edward and Team Jacob are really metaphors for the post-reconstruction South.
   1242. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:24 PM (#4089705)
I think everyone agrees that there's misconduct? Except snapper?

No, I think they did a shitty job investigating.
   1243. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4089710)
Pretty big caveat there.

The point was, there's absolutely nothing unusual about a neighborhood watch guy (or HOA security guy, or even a random resident of a gated community) following a person or persons who are unknown to them. It usually results in a simple, "Hey, have we met? I'm ____"-type of thing rather than a hostile encounter, but that doesn't change the fact that what Zimmerman did — follow Martin — is not the slightest bit uncommon within the context of neighborhood watch or gated communities.

***

My point is that there is nothing that will convince you there is a racial problem in the country. It's always just insignificant. But to the targets of such sentiments, there is an actual problem to deal with. That you don't think there is does not mean there isn't, and your dismissal of any level of repeated events show - in my opinion- just how much attention you give to such issues.

Lassus, are you really this insufferable? I never said America was a place of perfect racial harmony. I said I wasn't impressed with using a small collection of tweets at Jezebel.com as proof that black people walk around the U.S. in a perpetual state of fear.
   1244. formerly dp Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4089713)
Zimmerman could say "I shot the little ###### because he was black" and Ray and Joe would still deny any racial component in the murder. Is this even in question? We all know who we're dealing with here-- white guys who whip out post-raciality and use it as a cudgel every time there's an actual racially-motivated incident. These are the same people who think institutional racism was invented by liberals to make them feel bad about their skin color.
   1245. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4089719)
Zimmerman could say "I shot the little ###### because he was black" and Ray and Joe would still deny any racial component in the murder. Is this even in question?

Apparently not, at least in your mind.

Anyway, always good to hear from a fan.
   1246. Morty Causa Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4089722)
C'mon, this isn't Slate. Too bad, but this has turned, predictably enough, I guess, into almost a textbook seminar on what's wrong with hate crime laws. There's an irrebutable presumption in some people's mind here that if you've proved racism, you've proved the commission of the act.

Why do so many want to jump to conclusions? This is very much like the recent Paterno/Sandusky and Conlin threads.

Not only do you not know a number of the facts for sure, you keep confusing and confounding the permissible legal pretexts in the matter.

Is a neighborhood watch permissible? Yes.

Can there be a neighborhood watch guy? Yes.

Can that neighborhood watch guy confront people in the neighborhood? Yes.

Can he carry a gun? Yes.

Is there a SYG law? Yes.

Is that law constitutionally permissible? Yes.



Now,

Can a stranger have a right to be in the neighborhood? Yes.

Does he have a right to tell the watch guy who confronts him to go #### himself? Yes.

Does the stranger have the right to physically attack the watch guy for confronting him? No.

Does the watch guy have to retreat if physically attacked? No.

Does the watch guy have the right to shoot the stranger if the stranger doesn’t cooperate with him? No.

Does he have the right to shoot the guy who is beating the hell out of him? ???

The case needs to be discussed as to the facts as they relate to these questions, and those facts will be submitted and assessed in a court of law, according to law and to protocols..

But, even if you can show Zimmerman is a racist, it doesn’t resolve the ultimate issue. Nor would it if Martin were shown to be one. And even if Martin was uncooperative, that doesn’t resolve the issue.

It’s criminal to kill someone unless you have a justifiable defense, but it’s not criminal to hate someone because of his race. Not yet, anyway.

Imagining facts and scenarios is a filthy habit and a big no-no for legal dispositions. It’s not conducive to the meting out of justice, for it will lead you astray.
   1247. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4089723)
Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys tend to know who does and doesn't live in their gated community? Is it really in dispute that neighborhood watch guys often follow and make inquiries of unknown persons?
It should be noted that Zimmerman wasn't appointed the neighborhood watch guy by anyone else in the neighborhood, he appointed himself.
   1248. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4089725)
It should be noted that Zimmerman wasn't appointed the neighborhood watch guy by anyone else in the neighborhood, he appointed himself.

All neighborhood watches are essentially self-appointed. They're volunteers.
   1249. flournoy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4089727)
I'm interested in the duties of a neighborhood watchman and the mindset of the guys who take that job. Do they just sit around in unmarked windowless white vans all night watching who comes and goes? What kind of person volunteers for such a position?
   1250. Danny Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4089729)
C'mon, this isn't Slate. Too bad, but this has turned, predictably enough, I guess, into almost a textbook seminar on what's wrong with hate crime laws. There's an irrebutable presumption in some people's mind here that if you've proved racism, you've proved the commission of the act.

AKA I'm not a criminal just because I'm a pedophile!

Also, no mention of police (mis)conduct?
   1251. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4089731)
What kind of person volunteers for such a position?

I would imagine people who've been burglarized or mugged are overrepresented among participants.
   1252. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4089733)
It should be noted that Zimmerman wasn't appointed the neighborhood watch guy by anyone else in the neighborhood, he appointed himself.

The stories I've read have described Zimmerman as the "neighborhood watch captain." I'm sure it's a volunteer job, but the "captain" part seems to imply there's more than one person involved and that maybe an election was held.
   1253. OCF Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:09 PM (#4089734)
It's a different case, with different circumstances and different laws - but I keep thinking back to the Latasha Harlins case from Los Angeles in the mid 90's.

The basic outline: teenage black girl, in her own neighborhood, in a convenience store owned and operated by a Korean couple, with the wife behind the counter. Owner mistakenly accuses girl of shoplifting. Girl reaches over counter and slugs owner several times. Owner throws chair at girl. Girl slams orange juice down on counter, then turns to leave. Owner comes up from behind the counter with handgun, fatally shoots girl in back of head. Owners lie to police, calling it a robbery, but there's a security camera tape of the whole thing, which forces them to drop that story.

The eventual outcome: the owner went to trial. Her claim of self-defense was not upheld. Her claim that she didn't mean to fire the gun got a little more play, as the gun had an unusually light trigger pull. She was convicted of voluntary manslaughter (and I think that the distinction between voluntary and involuntary means the jury thought she did intend to pull the trigger); the judge imposed an unusually light sentence (for that particular crime) involving no prison time.

The case was extremely well publicized, and tensions over it were part of the background to the Rodney King riots.

In the Harlins case, the presence of the security camera makes most of the facts clear. Yes, the teenage girl, who was bigger than than the shop owner, did throw several punches. Even so, that is not a capital offense.
   1254. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4089736)
All neighborhood watches are essentially self-appointed. They're volunteers.

We all have the right to make a citizen's arrest, so we're all "neighborhood watch" people, albeit in an inchoate sense. The vast majority of us don't exercise this right, but it is a right. Under Florida law, Zimmermann had the same right to arrest as a police officer from another jurisdiction.

Inherent in that right is the right to prevent crime.
   1255. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4089738)
Can that neighborhood watch guy confront people in the neighborhood? Yes.


He can, But he's not supposed to.

Can he carry a gun? Yes.


He can, but Police departments request that they don't.

This guy seems pretty gung ho for a neighborhood watch guy, and he seems like a pain in the ass too:

He called once to report his neighbor's open garage door. And in the sixth call, Zimmerman reports children are "habitually" playing in the street at dusk and running in front of cars. He asked dispatchers to take his complaint anonymously, but provided his name and phone number.


"There's two suspicious characters at the gate of my neighborhood, I've never seen them before. I don't know what they are doing. They are hanging out… loitering


   1256. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4089739)
In the Harlins case, the presence of the security camera makes most of the facts clear. Yes, the teenage girl, who was bigger than than the shop owner, did throw several punches. Even so, that is not a capital offense.

The fact that she shot her from behind is what's damning. The only way I see you can claim self-defense in that case is 1) it was too dark to see (e.g. intruder in your house), or 2) There are multiple assailants/lots of chaos

If the girl initiated the violence, and was still attacking the woman when she was shot, it would be a much different situation.
   1257. Danny Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4089741)
The stories I've read have described Zimmerman as the "neighborhood watch captain." I'm sure it's a volunteer job, but the "captain" part seems to imply there's more than one person involved and that maybe an election was held.

LMGTFY
   1258. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4089742)
This guy seems pretty gung ho for a neighborhood watch guy, and he seems like a pain in the ass too:

No doubt. He's definitely a little weird, at best.
   1259. Danny Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4089746)
The fact that she shot her from behind is what's damning. The only way I see you can claim self-defense in that case is 1) it was too dark to see (e.g. intruder in your house), or 2) There are multiple assailants/lots of chaos

Unless it's a black teenager getting shot in the back in Sanford...
   1260. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4089751)
We all have the right to make a citizen's arrest, so we're all "neighborhood watch" people, albeit in an inchoate sense. The vast majority of us don't exercise this right, but it is a right. Under Florida law, Zimmermann had the same right to arrest as a police officer from another jurisdiction.

You can't just perform a citizen's arrest on anyone you feel like though. You actually need probable cause to do so. Unknown black kid in my neighbourhood doesn't cut it.
   1261. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4089753)
LMGTFY

Is there a definitive report that he was "self-appointed"? Just because some blogs use that phrase doesn't mean it's true. (If he was truly self-appointed, why doesn't the media just call him a "resident" rather than the "neighborhood watch captain"? The latter strongly implies some sort of affiliation or organization.)
   1262. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4089758)
Yes, because that would change everything. Though after killing a civilian, shouldn't he at least be busted down to lieutenant?
   1263. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4089761)
Is there a definitive report that he was "self-appointed"? Just because some blogs use that phrase doesn't mean it's true. (If he was truly self-appointed, why doesn't the media just call him a "resident" rather than the "neighborhood watch captain"? The latter strongly implies some sort of affiliation or organization.)


(Assuming it's true) Same reason they keep calling him white and showing a picture of Martin from 3 years ago. It's the first thing they got and they're too lazy or don't care to correct it. The media is so quick to get it first and so loathe to go back and get it right.
   1264. Lassus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4089764)
I don't think that crappy YA fiction, turned into a movie and marketed to teenage girls is really a great medium for examining racism in society.

If you don't think listening to opinions of the greater public helps you understand what the greater public thinks, that's fine. But ridiculous. (And the crappiness or non-crappiness of a book you haven't read has nothing to do with the point. At all. I haven't read it either.)


I said I wasn't impressed with using a small collection of tweets at Jezebel.com as proof that black people walk around the U.S. in a perpetual state of fear.

Once again. I made the original post to point out that it is not unreasonable for african-americans to suspect racist undercurrents in a case like this based on what people have to deal with and hear multiple times on many levels in many forms of media all the time. Of which those numerous tweets are but one small example. I became "insufferable" because you compounded and proved the very point I was making - "Pffft, four tweets, who cares? Pfft, ten tweets, who cares? Pffft, 175 tweets, who cares?"

You don't find these racists idiots to be important, you don't find those racist idiots to be important. It doesn't add up for you, shocker, but it adds up for those who it is meant for. You don't have to live in perpetual fear (something I of course didn't claim) to be affected by what goes on around you and have it inform your reactions to events. Which was all I was getting at.
   1265. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4089766)
It's irrelevant whether he was in a neighborhood watch. If he was, he has no more authority or power than if he wasn't. The issue's a sideshow.

You can't just perform a citizen's arrest on anyone you feel like though.

Of course not, just as a policeman can't arrest someone without probable cause. A private citizen can "investigate" potential crime, though (and then arrest if he witnesses one).
   1266. Danny Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4089770)
Is there a definitive report that he was "self-appointed"? Just because some blogs use that phrase doesn't mean it's true. (If he was truly self-appointed, why doesn't the media just call him a "resident" rather than the "neighborhood watch captain"? The latter strongly implies some sort of affiliation or organization.)

Yes, there were several links to news articles in the link I gave you. Or you could click the news tab.

Do you prefer FoxNews? Local CBS? ABC? The head of the National Sheriffs Association?
   1267. Morty Causa Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4089776)

Do either of you know what "incontinence" means?
   1268. Morty Causa Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4089793)
   1269. Morty Causa Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4089795)
   1270. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4089796)
Yes, there were several links to news articles in the link I gave you. Or you could click the news tab.

Do you prefer FoxNews? Local CBS? ABC? The head of the National Sheriffs Association?

Those four articles simply include the phrase "self-appointed," without any supporting proof. Are there stories of his neighbors describing him as "self-appointed" or complaining that he was "self-appointed"? The few quotes I've seen from his neighbors have all been positive.

To me, a "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is just a resident, and should have been described as such from the get-go.

***

I became "insufferable" because you compounded and proved the very point I was making - "Pffft, four tweets, who cares? Pfft, ten tweets, who cares? Pffft, 175 tweets, who cares?"

You don't find these racists idiots to be important, you don't find those racist idiots to be important. It doesn't add up for you, shocker, but it adds up for those who it is meant for. You don't have to live in perpetual fear (something I of course didn't claim) to be affected by what goes on around you and have it inform your reactions to events. Which was all I was getting at.

Right, I don't "find these racist idiots to be important." Call me crazy, but I don't believe a few idiots on Twitter who complained about a casting decision in a teenybopper movie are a clear and present danger to black Americans.
   1271. Dan The Mediocre Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4089799)
To me, a "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is just a resident, and should be described as such.


A "resident" is very rarely going to just chase down random strangers that they see in the neighborhood. A "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is pretty much going to be paranoid and prone to doing paranoid things. As such, there is a difference and if the media is going to report honestly should at least acknowledge that the difference exists.
   1272. DA Baracus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4089801)
He said he was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.


What an ass. I'm sure he has black friends though.
   1273. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4089803)
Do either of you know what "incontinence" means?

That I really hope I don't get the same seat you had the previous flight?
   1274. Lassus Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4089806)
Right, I don't "find these racist idiots to be important." Call me crazy, but I don't believe a few idiots on Twitter who complained about a casting decision in a teenybopper movie are a clear and present danger to black Americans.

And the fact that these few hundreds of idiots are neither the first nor the last in a long line of continuing racist idiots also means nothing to you, then, yes?
   1275. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4089808)
A "resident" is very rarely going to just chase down random strangers that they see in the neighborhood. A "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain" is pretty much going to be paranoid and prone to doing paranoid things. As such, there is a difference and if the media is going to report honestly should at least acknowledge that the difference exists.

The phrase "neighborhood watch" implies an organization of people in a given community, whether it's an organized but unaffiliated neighborhood watch or an affiliated/official Neighborhood Watch. Until this news coverage, I had never heard or seen the phrase "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain." Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles, and since when does the media print them?
   1276. zonk Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4089813)

The phrase "neighborhood watch" implies an organization of people in a given community, whether it's an organized but unaffiliated neighborhood watch or an affiliated/official Neighborhood Watch. Until this news coverage, I had never heard or seen the phrase "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain." Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles, and since when does the media print them?


Well, I think the media has been sort of reporting on Zimmerman in trickles... The first story I read indicated that the letter Zimmerman's father delivered had said that he (the younger Zimmerman) had wanted to 'work in law enforcement'. Further stories indicated that the guy called 911 something like 47 times in a year. Other reporting - and again, I'm not talking 'blogs', but the linked stories I've read from the local papers, painted a mix of neighbors that lauded him for 'policing' the community and others who thought he was an insufferable busybody with delusions of grandeur.

Yeah, I'm passing judgment on the guy -- surprise, surprise -- I'm some random guy passing judgment on someone else on the internet... but everything I've read screams paranoid self-appointed guardian-type who had a severely inflated sense of what he versus the actual authorities should be doing.

   1277. Dan The Mediocre Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4089816)

Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles?


Ask this guy.
   1278. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4089823)
And the fact that these few hundreds of idiots are neither the first nor the last in a long line of continuing racist idiots also means nothing to you, then, yes? Is each time like the first and the last time for you, Joe?

Nope, that silly Jezebel.com article about a teenybopper movie still means nothing to me. Without a doubt, there are some hardcore, dangerous racists in the world, but the clowns in that article aren't them.

***

but everything I've read screams paranoid self-appointed guardian-type who had a severely inflated sense of what he versus the actual authorities should be doing.

Right, I agree with this. I believe I described him similarly a page or two back.
   1279. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4089841)
The last couple of pages have plenty of examples of Ray and David defending the police, if only by undermining the case against Zimmerman by mocking the idea that race might have played a role in the events.


? All I've done is "mock" the idea that race necessarily played a role in the events.

It's very plausible that Zimmerman had race on his mind. I mean, I would like to collect all the evidence before making conclusions, but, yes, it's plausible, and not a wacky theory.

I find it less plausible that the police response was driven by race. But, sure, it's certainly possible. But no evidence has presented at all that goes to that theory.
   1280. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4089859)
Right, I don't "find these racist idiots to be important." Call me crazy, but I don't believe a few idiots on Twitter who complained about a casting decision in a teenybopper movie are a clear and present danger to black Americans.

And the fact that these few hundreds of idiots are neither the first nor the last in a long line of continuing racist idiots also means nothing to you, then, yes?


Nobody ever claimed there weren't individual racists, Lassus. Some of these morons may even have access to Twitter. I fail to see any meaningful point that you're making.

   1281. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 26, 2012 at 11:34 PM (#4089862)
Not saying any of that is true or not, and not saying the police did a good job, but you can't see how the police and DA (acting w/o malice) might of thought they had no chance of a conviction?

So you're saying the suspect, who shot the victim in plain sight, made claims affirming a defense? You don't say.


What we've been hearing is that the police didn't interview Zimmerman and thus didn't care that a black kid had been killed. That first assertion clearly is not the case, as they _did_ interview him.

Whether Zimmerman just made it all up is beside this particular point.
   1282. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4089870)
Nobody ever claimed there weren't individual racists, Lassus. Some of these morons may even have access to Twitter. I fail to see any meaningful point that you're making.

How many recurring groups of 200 or 300 are no longer individuals?

I've made the meaningful point repeatedly. But, I'll try again, and see if you ignore it again: The fact that this group of racists has popped up and off about this film, in addition to the last two or three groups regarding what they were racist about, plus the next two or three groups about whatever they will be racist about, does mean something. Each bit. You have taken it upon yourself to say that this instance of (at least) two hundred racist tweets doesn't affect anyone, and is evidence of nothing. At all. And you're wrong.


Nope, that silly Jezebel.com article about a teenybopper movie still means nothing to me. Without a doubt, there are some hardcore, dangerous racists in the world, but the clowns in that article aren't them.

(I only reprinted your first sentence because I enjoy watching you try and make a point of distaste out of the title of the website.)

If you think that the core racial problems in the country come from hardcore, "dangerous" racists as opposed to common, regular racists, you are certainly as uninterested in racial issues as I originally stated.
   1283. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4089871)
Just ran across this story out of Miami:

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

***

How many recurring groups of 200 or 300 are no longer individuals?

Huh? You're counting 200 or 300 random people on Twitter who were identified based on a movie-related keyword(s) as a "group," despite the fact they probably live in all corners of the country (if not globe)?

(I only reprinted your first sentence because I enjoy watching you try and make a point of distaste out of the title of the website.)

I enjoy watching you try to make Jezebel.com sound like a Pulitzer Prize-winning news outlet.

If you think that the core racial problems in the country come from hardcore, "dangerous" racists as opposed to common, regular racists, you are certainly as uninterested in racial issues as I originally stated.

What percentage of those keyboard cowboys do you believe back up their stupid "tweets" with anything resembling violence or hostility out in the real world? They're a bunch of clowns who are mad about a casting decision, for Pete's sake.
   1284. tshipman Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4089876)
Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin


:(

All of this stuff is completely irrelevant to his case and smacks of victim blaming.

What we've been hearing is that the police didn't interview Zimmerman and thus didn't care that a black kid had been killed. That first assertion clearly is not the case, as they _did_ interview him.


A lot of the reported behavior by the police at the scene is really squirrely. Telling a witness that they were wrong, not checking the cellphone, etc. The interview on the scene appears to have been pretty perfunctory.
   1285. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4089877)
All of this stuff is completely irrelevant to his case and smacks of victim blaming.

I thought the same thing when I read it, but if Zimmerman's life (or at least liberty) is now on the line, I guess more info. is better. There are things in that story that betray the image that's been publicized over the past week. First it was "never got in trouble," then it was "suspended for an empty marijuana bag," and now it's "suspended three times," with vandalism caught on camera plus a confiscated stash of unexplained gold and diamond jewelry.
   1286. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:49 AM (#4089880)
Until this news coverage, I had never heard or seen the phrase "self-appointed neighborhood watch captain." Since when are people allowed to give themselves such titles, and since when does the media print them?
Look at it this way: if they didn't print it, we'd all be thinking that Zimmerman really was acting as part of some sort of organized neighborhood watch, instead of some solo dude playing out his Batman fantasy.
   1287. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4089883)
But as I said above, the "self-appointed" part might be inaccurate. The Orlando Sentinel is still referring to Zimmerman as the "coordinator" of his neighborhood watch group, and a guy named Frank Taaffe is being named as a "fellow neighborhood watch captain" in Sanford.
   1288. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:13 AM (#4089886)
Huh? You're counting 200 or 300 random people on Twitter who were identified based on a movie-related keyword(s) as a "group," despite the fact they probably live in all corners of the country (if not globe)?

Oh good lord. HUH? Weren't you the one going on and on about how the "I DON"T GET IT" shtick was tired here? How are 200 or 300 random people who all are making the same point not a group of people making the same point? 200 people is a group of people. It's simply language. I can't believe that is difficult to understand.


I enjoy watching you try to make Jezebel.com sound like a Pulitzer Prize-winning news outlet.

Yes, because I pointed out an aggregator blog had aggregated a tumblr blog, I'm giving them some elevated status. You're hallucinating, unless where you can point to how I claimed something approaching what you're saying. But you can't. Because it didn't happen. But like you tried to go on and on about the four tweets that were actually about 50 times that, it's great false spin.


What percentage of those keyboard cowboys do you believe back up their stupid "tweets" with anything resembling violence or hostility out in the real world?
HOW IN THE WORLD ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE RUE A FREAKIN BLACK ##### IN THE MOVIE!?!?!??!?!
I'm glad you can define racism as only equalling violence. WHEW! So, again, educate me on language comprehension - this quoted statement is not hostile, yes? I'm not sure the College Board would agree.

Hey, well, at least this there's this one:
I was pumped about the Hunger Games. Until I learned that a black girl was playing Rue.
I look forward to the video of you explaining to an 8-year-old girl how this doesn't really count as racism, as it's not violent or hostile. And the other 200 similar tweets? Hey, there are individual racists everywhere. It's all good.
   1289. Joe Kehoskie Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4089891)
Oh good lord. HUH? Weren't you the one going on and on about how the "I DON"T GET IT" shtick was tired here? How are 200 or 300 random people who all are making the same point not a group of people making the same point? 200 people is a group of people. It's simply language. I can't believe that is difficult to understand.

Please rest assured that I was expressing genuine bewilderment. In fact, despite your additional elucidation, your logic still escapes me. How does a random collection of people on Twitter — people who don't actually know each other, but simply mentioned the same keyword(s) while complaining about a casting decision in a teenybopper movie — constitute a "group" for purposes of intimidating or harming black people in America?

I've heard of the RICO statutes being applied to street gangs, but never to a collection of random people who mentioned the same keyword(s) on Twitter. (Of course, with @BarackObama only a tweet away, perhaps I shouldn't give anyone any ideas.)

HOW IN THE WORLD ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE RUE A FREAKIN BLACK ##### IN THE MOVIE!?!?!??!?!

I'm glad you can define racism as only equalling violence. WHEW! So, again, educate me on language comprehension - this quoted statement is not hostile, yes? I'm not sure the College Board would agree.

If the above quote is representative of the current state of racism in America, I hereby declare the problem solved.

There are still people who believe the Earth is flat, there are still people who believe the Holocaust was a hoax, and a hundred years from now, at least a few members of Race/Ethnicity A will be hurling invective at members of Race/Ethnicity B. Human nature is what it is.

I was pumped about the Hunger Games. Until I learned that a black girl was playing Rue.

I look forward to the video of you explaining to an 8-year-old girl how this doesn't really count as racism, as it's not violent or hostile. And the other 200 similar tweets? Hey, there are individual racists everywhere. It's all good.

I look forward to your explanation of how a tweet can be "violent." I also look forward to your explanation of why random 8-year-old girls are being allowed unsupervised internet access, up to and including being allowed to "follow" idiots who post crap like the example you quoted.
   1290. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 27, 2012 at 07:13 AM (#4089919)
I was pumped about the Hunger Games. Until I learned that a black girl was playing Rue.

The person probably thought Rue was white. There were a bunch of people -- adults, even -- who didn't like the casting of white people in Miss Saigon.

A big part of the reason people notice race so much is that they're encouraged and trained to by the loudest voices in the country -- mostly voices on the left.

   1291. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 27, 2012 at 07:28 AM (#4089920)
A big part of the reason people notice race so much is that they're encouraged and trained to by the loudest voices in the country -- mostly voices on the left.

Absolutely. Why, if it hadn't been for leftists like Frederick Douglass and William Lloyd Garrison, most of the slaves in this country would've been white.
   1292. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 27, 2012 at 07:41 AM (#4089923)
I find it less plausible that the police response was driven by race. But, sure, it's certainly possible. But no evidence has presented at all that goes to that theory.

Do you have a "gut feeling" about it?

Hahahahahahahahahahahah of course you don't. You've learned not to trust your gut.
   1293. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:05 AM (#4089927)
Can't you think it's stupid to cast a black person to play an iconic white character? I would think it was stupid if they cast a black guy as Batman, probably. Granted I have no idea who this, nor do i know anything about the Hunger Games.
   1294. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:07 AM (#4089929)
I would think it was stupid if they cast a black guy as Batman, probably.

Why? Black people can't be rich?
   1295. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:07 AM (#4089930)
OK, I just found out the character herself is black. WTF? What a weird story. People are dumb.
   1296. formerly dp Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:11 AM (#4089931)
A big part of the reason people notice race so much is that they're encouraged and trained to by the loudest voices in the country -- mostly voices on the left.

This is the perfect and most concise summary of the new face of racism in this country-- white conservatives insisting that race no longer matters, because they say so, and in spite of all evidence to the contrary. You're intent on denying people's experience with race, because admitting it would require you to acknowledge that being white is still a privileged position in our society (an affront to your little fiction that we all rise and fall of our own accord).

White people get to deny race. Others don't have that privilege. But I'm sure that won't stop you from going all Fox on us and trotting out the same ignorant arguments, patting yourself on the back, Stephen T. Colbert style, for being "colorblind". Maybe you'll even drop the conservative favorite "reverse racism" on us.

Oh, and Arizona's right there with you, Joe.
   1297. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4089934)
The person probably thought Rue was white. There were a bunch of people -- adults, even -- who didn't like the casting of white people in Miss Saigon.

I haven't read the book, but it apparently describes the character as having "brown" skin. Your comparing it to white people being cast to play the role of Asian characters isn't really fair. Do you really think someone losing interest in a movie because a character is black, even if the book made no mention of the character's race, isn't an indication that the person might not be a big fan of black people?

Edit: I don't think either situation warrants outrage, but the comparison is totally off.
   1298. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 27, 2012 at 08:38 AM (#4089939)
The Onion had a recent article titled something like "American society is post-racial, say white folks".

HA!! Life imitating art, here at BTF. Wait, no. BTF has become performance art. Bravo!!
   1299. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4089947)
All of this stuff is completely irrelevant to his case and smacks of victim blaming.

Really? The fact that there's some decent evidence that Martin has committed burglaries is completely irrlevent? It doesn't raise the possibility that he was acting strangely when Zimmerman noticed him?
   1300. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4089950)
This is the perfect and most concise summary of the new face of racism in this country-- white conservatives insisting that race no longer matters, because they say so, and in spite of all evidence to the contrary. You're intent on denying people's experience with race, because admitting it would require you to acknowledge that being white is still a privileged position in our society (an affront to your little fiction that we all rise and fall of our own accord).

White people get to deny race. Others don't have that privilege. But I'm sure that won't stop you from going all Fox on us and trotting out the same ignorant arguments, patting yourself on the back, Stephen T. Colbert style, for being "colorblind". Maybe you'll even drop the conservative favorite "reverse racism" on us.


What if I just don't care? I've never done anything to harm anyone based on their race, or religion, or sex, or any other "protected class" factor. Therefore, I take no blame for any residual affects of racism.

I'd also like to point out that most of what you call "people's experience with race" is mostly the experience of the correlation between race and other behaviors. Most of the negative experiences blacks have with police stems from the fact that blacks committ a disproportionate amount of crime (mostly against black victims). Asians get the same "privileged position" whites get. Is that because of pro-Asian racism?
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